Saturday 18th & Sunday 19th April 2015

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 8:36 am

Morning.

If you have time have a go this party manifesto quiz.
I got 21 out of 25, it was fishing, GM food vote, that let me down.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... to-9069170" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 8:37 am

Argghhh...was going to take Paul's advice and ignore the ***, but up pops Alex Salmond on Radio 4, using his most Wormtongue-ish voice.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 8:44 am

Today am practising Zen-like approach and taking on board the wisdom of PYF, OBM and TE (and others).
Will see where it takes me ....

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 8:47 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Today am practising Zen-like approach and taking on board the wisdom of PYF, OBM and TE (and others).
Will see where it takes me ....

To the pub would seem the most likely outcome.

Today I am riding a horse, I will see where that takes me....

(I am guessing to a nice green hedge).

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 8:52 am

I'm doing a walk to the coast.
Plenty of distractions along the way to keep the *** out of my head.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 9:07 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

If you have time have a go this party manifesto quiz.
I got 21 out of 25, it was fishing, GM food vote, that let me down.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... to-9069170" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Only got 18/25, myself. I was ok on fishing and the GM food ones but, amongst other mind-blank-guesses, confidently ascribed the proposal for a Welsh International Cricket Team to the Monster Raving Loony Party. You got a brilliant score

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 9:09 am

Have to admit some were inspired guesses Lady C.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 9:13 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Today am practising Zen-like approach and taking on board the wisdom of PYF, OBM and TE (and others).
Will see where it takes me ....
To the pub would seem the most likely outcome.

Today I am riding a horse, I will see where that takes me....

(I am guessing to a nice green hedge).

Nice green hedges are My Darling T's favourite thing about outings. She seems to think I'd enjoy perching on them - when she's not challenging the ex-racehorse to a speed-trial, that is...

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 9:17 am

In the absence of a horse, my guessing is it's going to be the pub.

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 9:20 am

The Trussell Trust are releasing their figures for 2014/15 food bank use on Wednesday. In the first 6 months of 2014/15 they recorded a 38% increase on the same period in 2013/14 so we're probably looking at 1.2million+ people benefiting from the Coalition's economic miracle.

The numbers accessing food banks has increased by 618% in the last 3 years.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 86142.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And the Tories are still pretending that the increase is due to them "allowing" Jobcentres to signpost people to food banks. Nothing to see here, move along.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 9:24 am

Just read a 45er's post on yesterday's Sparrow & Friends blog, and had to share part of it with you.

And please try not to resort to name calling. its rude. Have a debate. So we wont vote for red tories.

Morning all. At work, so not riding a horse or doing Zenlike things. Hopefully a short day though.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 9:57 am

I note that not just one, not just two, but three polling companies are connected to tories : yougov, Ashcroft and Populus. Any more?

I'm not implying anything about their methodology, but have long thought that polling is a means of checking whether the (mainly tory skewed media's) propaganda is working or not, and proper psephologists mights not be interested in that sort of thing.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 10:04 am

Morning, all

I went to an event last night where the speaker was Paul Johnson from the IFS.

I made some mental notes of what he had to say so please don't ask me to expand on them since the totality of what I can remember is what I have put here !

*He said the Cons have no sense of realism about spending/taxation plans

*Lab lack clarity on when exactly what they want to have balanced the books & this matters because the year affects the level of cuts required. He repeated what he has said publicly that if balance being aimed for is 2019/20, there would be no need for cuts but EM has said there will be cuts so are Lab planning to balance sooner ?

*The jobs market has been hugely successful over the last 5 years but productivity is diabolical. Low wages mean taxes are nowhere near where they should be wit this level of employment.

*To increase productivity:
Spend more on roads & infrastructure
Reform planning laws radically
Reform tax system to make it more efficient
Education - improvements in Edu reap benefits long term but nobody knows what or how
Need to have debate about size of state because if we want one that does more than health & OAPs then we need to collect more tax !

*Suggests getting rid of stamp duty but to revalue homes for CT - mad to charge CT in regressive way it currently is whereas old rates system was proportionate to house value.

*Refers always to social security, never welfare !

*10p tax rate a waste of time
Wished Paxo had delved further into interview with Ed when he said that Lab had not done enough on inequality but Paxo just moved on to what he wanted to talk about - the deficit. Said Lab had done loads to reduce inequality through tax credits.

*Big laugh when he said Cons say deficit reduced by £100bn because they are including 2015/6 that obviously hasn't happened yet !
Low hanging fruit already been picked so where are cuts going to come from?

*Said most SS cuts had happened without being noticed because they hadn't reduced the amount paid per se but it's the loss in value that has affected claimants most.

*Under the triple-lock, the 2.5% increase to OAPs will cost £bns when 0% inflation !

*Green & ukip fiscal plans utter nonsense. He literally laughed out loud when asked what he thought of their tax/spend plans published in their manifestos.

*Scots under SNP with FFA would have huge deficit; yes, wealthy country but they spend loads more per head of population than in rest of UK.

So there you have it - my interesting evening in a nutshell. Nice man Mr Johnson & made even more so when it turns out that he was brought up in the town I now call home & went to the same school as my two boys

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 10:11 am

pk1 wrote:*Lab lack clarity on when exactly what they want to have balanced the books & this matters because the year affects the level of cuts required. He repeated what he has said publicly that if balance being aimed for is 2019/20, there would be no need for cuts but EM has said there will be cuts so are Lab planning to balance sooner ?

Am I missing something? The way I read it Labour can't be totally sure how bad things really are until they take office, when they will be able to uncover the things the current bunch of sociopaths have tried to sweep under the carpet; so it makes sense for Balls and Miliband to plan for the worse case, which gives them flexibility if things are not quite that grim - promise what you know you can deliver, deliver what you promise.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 10:17 am

A man after my own heart, Paul Johnson.

revalue homes for CT - mad to charge CT in regressive way it currently is whereas old rates system was proportionate to house value.

Not everyone here agrees with this - but local income tax or LVT are even less likely than the revaluation.

10p tax rate a waste of time

I've actually emailed Labour about this one, no reply as yet. It's bonkers since the personal allowance increases.

Under the triple-lock, the 2.5% increase to OAPs will cost £bns when 0% inflation !

Sooner or later whichever govt will have to change this. Events, dear boy.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 10:19 am

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
pk1 wrote:*Lab lack clarity on when exactly what they want to have balanced the books & this matters because the year affects the level of cuts required. He repeated what he has said publicly that if balance being aimed for is 2019/20, there would be no need for cuts but EM has said there will be cuts so are Lab planning to balance sooner ?
Am I missing something? The way I read it Labour can't be totally sure how bad things really are until they take office, when they will be able to uncover the things the current bunch of sociopaths have tried to sweep under the carpet; so it makes sense for Balls and Miliband to plan for the worse case, which gives them flexibility if things are not quite that grim - promise what you know you can deliver, deliver what you promise.

Not only that, but they'll also be able to see how much they can save by dumping Universal Credit.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 10:45 am

We know Lord Oakeshott has donated to some Labour PPC's; now he is out on the doorstep campaigning with them.

The independent member of the House of Lords is campaigning for tactical voting in favour of Labour candidate Will Scobie in South Thanet, where Nigel Farage is fighting a three-way battle to get into parliament for the seaside Kent seat.

http://linkis.com/www.buzzfeed.com/emi/d2IKW" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 10:59 am

Morning all.

To the surprise of no-one I expect as her pronouncements had become increasingly partisan.

David Cameron will move to shore up the pensioner vote by promising to place a leading expert and campaigner in the Lords and make her a minister in his new administration. Ros Altmann, the pensions expert and former adviser to Tony Blair, is to become a Conservative peer with a view to getting the job of minister for consumer protection if Cameron wins the election.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 11:16 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

To the surprise of no-one I expect as her pronouncements had become increasingly partisan.

Glad you said that - thought it was just me that found her partisan & sneeringly unpleasant.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 11:37 am

gilsey wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
pk1 wrote:*Lab lack clarity on when exactly what they want to have balanced the books & this matters because the year affects the level of cuts required. He repeated what he has said publicly that if balance being aimed for is 2019/20, there would be no need for cuts but EM has said there will be cuts so are Lab planning to balance sooner ?
Am I missing something? The way I read it Labour can't be totally sure how bad things really are until they take office, when they will be able to uncover the things the current bunch of sociopaths have tried to sweep under the carpet; so it makes sense for Balls and Miliband to plan for the worse case, which gives them flexibility if things are not quite that grim - promise what you know you can deliver, deliver what you promise.
Not only that, but they'll also be able to see how much they can save by dumping Universal Credit.

I have inclined towards this explanation all the way along. We know just how deeply Tories lie and muddy the waters. We laugh about back of fag packet policies and George having to take his socks off in order to use his toes for counting. We know they hide and delete facts and figures that makes them look bad.
The convoluted changes and enormous costs the DWP have ticked up will be the hardest to make sense of. It's going to be a hell of a job.

My big worry is the time it takes. People are impatient. They'll want it now, not a couple of years down the road.
I predict it will take at least two terms to get anywhere near the responsible, sympathetic efficient government we want.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 11:39 am

Good morfternoon.

@ tinyclanger2

Things Richard III wished he'd said, Part One?

Edited to add a "2". Sorry, tinyclanger2.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 11:41 am

mikems wrote:I note that not just one, not just two, but three polling companies are connected to tories : yougov, Ashcroft and Populus. Any more?

I'm not implying anything about their methodology, but have long thought that polling is a means of checking whether the (mainly tory skewed media's) propaganda is working or not, and proper psephologists mights not be interested in that sort of thing.

It has been claimed that nearly all the people in charge of UK pollsters are Tory sympathisers, it just seems to attract those types (maybe through its links with market research and the like, which tends intrinsically to be somewhat right-leaning)

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 11:49 am

@gilsey

10p tax rate a waste of time

The 10p tax rate has history and somehow has gained more significance that it should.

When banking started to collapse and there was a budget due, Brown said he wanted the 10 tax rate cut. Darling was against it, because he knew things were going to get tough and doing away with it would cause hardship to those who needed it most. But Brown put his foot down, and (I think) Darling considered it was one of the reasons they lost the GE.

It's always brought up as one of Labour's nastiest tax rises. Resurrecting it is probably symbolic rather than sound economic sense.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 11:53 am

To date, Labour is the only party which has not had their election leaflets delivered by what is still called the Royal Mail. Sadly, despite their ability to get volunteers to work for them they don't really have much of a chance of unseating (to continue the equine theme) the Conservative incumbent, Penny Mordaunt.

And no terrible howlers so far. Even Ukip has managed to find someone who can spell. The LibDems are valiantly trying to hide the fact that they are LibDems. You have to read the small print.

Oh - and if AnatolyKasparov is about -

So far, my investigations into the doings in Portsmouth South have yielded little, other than the fact that they are in leaflet overdrive. I hope someone is keeping an eye on their expenses.

Edited for typos

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 11:56 am

PS. We mustn't forget Ed is the ultimate politician and parliamentarian. He's juggling left, centre and right of potential Labour supporters in order to get as many votes as he can.

He's honest and decent, but at the end of the day he has to gain office.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 12:01 pm

ohsocynical wrote:@gilsey

10p tax rate a waste of time
The 10p tax rate has history and somehow has gained more significance that it should.

When banking started to collapse and there was a budget due, Brown said he wanted the 10 tax rate cut. Darling was against it, because he knew things were going to get tough and doing away with it would cause hardship to those who needed it most. But Brown put his foot down, and (I think) Darling considered it was one of the reasons they lost the GE.

It's always brought up as one of Labour's nastiest tax rises. Resurrecting it is probably symbolic rather than sound economic sense.

It's often forgotten that at the time the 10p rate was abolished, the personal allowance was raised by far more than usual. here's the numbers.

2003-04.........4,615
2004-05.........4,745
2005-06.........4,895
2006-07.........5,035
2007-08.........5,225
2008-09.........6,035
2009-10.........6,475

That big jump in 2008/9 is where the 10p rate disappeared.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 12:05 pm

Am I the only one less concerned with the supposed "embarrassment" of Tristram Hunt on being told by a child that they would vote UKip "to get rid of all the foreigners" and far more concerned with the ethos of the school where that kind of casual racism from pupils appears normal. There was no hesitation from the child, it came out quite naturally.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 12:24 pm

It appears that Ros Altmann was the "mystery" announcement, then. Not quite in the BoJo league, it has to be said.

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 12:36 pm

PorFavor wrote:To date, Labour is the only party which has not had their election leaflets delivered by what is still called the Royal Mail. Sadly, despite their ability to get volunteers to work for them they don't really have much of a chance of unseating (to continue the equine theme) the Conservative incumbent, Penny Mordaunt.

I've had three leaflets so far. Normally I don't get many leaflets but because Blunkett is standing down the other parties are putting in a little more effort this time. I've had one from the UKIP Youth (too easy to Godwin), one from the Labour candidate Harry Harpham and surprisingly one from the Tories for their candidate Elise Emanuelle Dünweber who is from that local Sheffield district of... erm... Leatherhead. Still nothing at all from the Lib-Dems.

The Tory leaflet comprised a large picture of Ms Dünweber on the front and photoshopped pictures of Miliband, Salmond et al on the back with numerous references to chaos. They really don't have anything positive to say do they?

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 12:39 pm

Afternoon all. Following the Boro's magnificent win over Norwich last night, I hope to get away from the election by visiting my local vinyl shop as part of "Record Store Day", then taking Mrs Close for a birthday dinner tonight.

Attached is from the Chippenham Gazette and Herald. Obviously the meaning of the word "mobbed" in Chippenham is different to the rest of the English speaking world.

: Boris.jpg (131.38 KiB) Viewed 14911 times

More pictures available (should you be interested) at
http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/ ... am/?ref=mr

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 12:44 pm

Update:

Not entirely convinced "Zen" and "Clanger" are mutually compatible, but am working on it and will report in in due course.

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 12:46 pm

danesclose wrote:Afternoon all. Following the Boro's magnificent win over Norwich last night, I hope to get away from the election by visiting my local vinyl shop as part of "Record Store Day", then taking Mrs Close for a birthday dinner tonight.

Attached is from the Chippenham Gazette and Herald. Obviously the meaning of the word "mobbed" in Chippenham is different to the rest of the English speaking world.

Boris.jpg
More pictures available (should you be interested) at
http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/ ... am/?ref=mr

That photo of Boris surrounded by a load of women with babies is going to come back to haunt him.

Caption competition material if ever I saw one.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 12:53 pm

Not sure if last night's YouGov got posted on here?

It again showed a Lab/Con tie at 34/34, but also a somewhat improbable Tory lead amongst 18-24 year olds (which means, of course, Labour were doing OK elsewhere)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 1:03 pm

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

@ tinyclanger2

Things Richard III wished he'd said, Part One?

Edited to add a "2". Sorry, tinyclanger2.

Good job you added that - I had no idea who you might mean!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 1:04 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:@gilsey

10p tax rate a waste of time
The 10p tax rate has history and somehow has gained more significance that it should.

When banking started to collapse and there was a budget due, Brown said he wanted the 10 tax rate cut. Darling was against it, because he knew things were going to get tough and doing away with it would cause hardship to those who needed it most. But Brown put his foot down, and (I think) Darling considered it was one of the reasons they lost the GE.

It's always brought up as one of Labour's nastiest tax rises. Resurrecting it is probably symbolic rather than sound economic sense.
It's often forgotten that at the time the 10p rate was abolished, the personal allowance was raised by far more than usual. here's the numbers.

2003-04.........4,615
2004-05.........4,745
2005-06.........4,895
2006-07.........5,035
2007-08.........5,225
2008-09.........6,035
2009-10.........6,475

That big jump in 2008/9 is where the 10p rate disappeared.

From Alistair Darling's Back From the Brink.

One of the things that really upsets back benchers is their own government taking action that brings outraged voters to their surgeries. This is exactly what the imminent removal of the 10p tax rate was starting to do. MPs were returning to Westminster each week having found their surgeries and their constituency postbags full of angry complaints. Even worse, many of those who were about to lose out from the change were traditional Labour supporters.
A number of colleagues had approached me in the division lobbies and in the corridors of the House to ask what was happening about the 10p rate. I acknowledged that there was a problem but that it would take some time to fix it. We simply didn't have the money to do so right now.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 1:12 pm

BuzzFeed UK PoliticsVerified account
‏@BuzzFeedUKPol
BuzzFeed UK Politics retweeted Gary Scott
Have you seen any pictures of politicians pointing at things on the campaign trail? Can you top this? Get in touch!

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 1:48 pm

To achieve integration, Miliband argues everyone in Britain should know how to speak English.

Everyone in Britain should know how to speak English. Sometimes, we’ve been too timid about this, but it is something we should expect from everyone who comes here.

Working in public sector - fine. But this is v disappointing from Miliband.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 1:58 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
To achieve integration, Miliband argues everyone in Britain should know how to speak English.

Everyone in Britain should know how to speak English. Sometimes, we’ve been too timid about this, but it is something we should expect from everyone who comes here.
Working in public sector - fine. But this is v disappointing from Miliband.

I'm not sure if it's particularly radical. Other countries have such requirements. Whether or not it's a good idea, I can't say, but it's not something new and, compared to say learning Norwegian or Dutch, probably not that onerous for many immigrants, as a lot of them already speak better English than many of us will ever be able to speak another language, long before they even get here. I presume they'll have several years to learn. At least, this appears to be the approach in other countries.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 1:59 pm

No they don't.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 2:01 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
To achieve integration, Miliband argues everyone in Britain should know how to speak English.

Everyone in Britain should know how to speak English. Sometimes, we’ve been too timid about this, but it is something we should expect from everyone who comes here.
Working in public sector - fine. But this is v disappointing from Miliband.

Agree with you on the public sector. I'm not clear whether Ed Miliband means that he thinks that everyone should speak English on arrival or whether they should have mastered the language within, say, 5 years. Which would be extremely difficult to monitor (but fairer).

And I know the argument that people from the UK go to (eg) Spain long-term and never master (or even attempt to master) the Spanish language, but that is a matter for the Spanish government. (I think such people should gain proficiency in the Spanish language, by the way. It's a matter of courtesy, apart from anything else.)

Edited to add "but fairer"

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 2:06 pm

I have problems with the term "integration". For me it reads "assimilation". We're the better for being forced to take on new ideas rather than try to mold everyone into the same form. Language is at the root of this. It is control. It's the thought police. I don't like it.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 2:20 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
To achieve integration, Miliband argues everyone in Britain should know how to speak English.

Everyone in Britain should know how to speak English. Sometimes, we’ve been too timid about this, but it is something we should expect from everyone who comes here.
Working in public sector - fine. But this is v disappointing from Miliband.

He is correct about eg Tower Hamlets in the 80s and 90s. You meet people now with poor English who arrived then. But much more effort has been made since by everyone. I wish he weren't so coy about what they achieved before 2010.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 2:20 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Am I the only one less concerned with the supposed "embarrassment" of Tristram Hunt on being told by a child that they would vote UKip "to get rid of all the foreigners" and far more concerned with the ethos of the school where that kind of casual racism from pupils appears normal. There was no hesitation from the child, it came out quite naturally.

No, you're not the only one. Embarrassment issues are nothing compared to the question of what children are learning in school.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 2:40 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I have problems with the term "integration". For me it reads "assimilation". We're the better for being forced to take on new ideas rather than try to mold everyone into the same form. Language is at the root of this. It is control. It's the thought police. I don't like it.

I think I understand your concern - apologies if I've misunderstood you. I want to reassure you because I don't think this specific policy is as bad as you may think. Again, I'm only giving you my own understanding.

It's not about control - it's about having the means to cooperate with each other. If I don't speak the same language as another person, it's going to take more time for us to make our needs & contributions clear to each other. What's exciting is learning how to communicate with others - lives open up, they don't get swallowed. Ed Miliband's mother & father didn't arrive in the UK knowing English. I don't write that as a sappy emotional tool to make a point. I mean it as a practical example of his personal understanding of the importance of a shared language. I've had the good fortune to live in other countries - nothing is more frustrating than my not knowing how to ask for help or lend it because of a language barrier.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 2:43 pm

communication is difficult even with the same language. but authoritarian dictates about what language you must speak are not an answer.

back to Zen.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 2:43 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Am I the only one less concerned with the supposed "embarrassment" of Tristram Hunt on being told by a child that they would vote UKip "to get rid of all the foreigners" and far more concerned with the ethos of the school where that kind of casual racism from pupils appears normal. There was no hesitation from the child, it came out quite naturally.

That will have been well learned at home. Look no further than the parents...

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 2:57 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:communication is difficult even with the same language. but authoritarian dictates about what language you must speak are not an answer.

back to Zen.

You can bet your boots that any wealthy immigrants ensure that they can communicate. The same should apply to any others. Not being able to communicate is tacit collusion in "divide and rule" and, despite protestations to the contrary, serves a useful purpose so far as the "ruling classes" go. How can the less privileged hope to stand together, let alone organise, if they can't even communicate with one another?

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 3:02 pm

I only have the Graun blog to go on but I read it as EM saying immigrants should learn to speak English, not that they must.

The exception to this being staff in the NHS, where they mustspeak English.

I'm not sure this is as inflammatory as it might appear to be initially.

I could of course, be completely wrong......

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 3:10 pm

@BBCPeterHunt
Ed Miliband in response to a request for a selfie -- there's a going rate, you have to knock on 200 doors for Labour

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tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 18 Apr, 2015 3:12 pm

Thanks all for your thoughts - I know this is one of my "areas" where I'm often out of line. Esta la vida (as they say).

For the record I completely agree with the following:

-Public servants (especially medical and similar) staff should have to speak English
- We should absolutely provide services to help, enable AND ENCOURAGE (and I mean encourage not harrasse) people to learn English

What I don't agree with is that this should be mandated, and that, for example, failure to learn English in x amount of years would result in - what - getting sent "back home". ?

??