Monday 20th April 2015

[AngryAsWell]

I think Ed needs to head off Cameron's SNP strategy by going for the jugular and I think he has cover to do it - thanks to Tory mutterings.

Ed should attack Cameron for demonising the Scots, point out they are part of the UK and their votes count the same whoever they vote for. He should then quote Boris at him and state how outrageous it all is. He should then say Labour campaigned for the Union because it is better for Scotland and for the UK economically. It was true then and it remains true today.

Finally Ed should say Cameron and Johnson are acting like children and are prepared to force the break up of the UK just to stay in power. This will make everybody poorer. Miliband should say this must not be permitted and he will stand up to protect the union, and that means treating all nations within it with respect. Finally sign off with the argument a vote for Cameron will break up the UK, only Labour will fight to keep it. If Scotland one day wishes to leave it should not be because of the childish insults of the Tories.

That will have the traditional Tories snarling at Cameron.

Excellent plan... fingers crossed some strategy person reading.

[AngryAsWell]

They also need to get this analysis of SNP manifesto out wide and far
One, two, three, what are we fighting for?

http://labourlist.org/2015/04/one-two-t ... hting-for/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(With thank to original poster earlier)

Night all

[pk1]

I think Ed needs to head off Cameron's SNP strategy by going for the jugular and I think he has cover to do it - thanks to Tory mutterings.

Ed should attack Cameron for demonising the Scots, point out they are part of the UK and their votes count the same whoever they vote for. He should then quote Boris at him and state how outrageous it all is. He should then say Labour campaigned for the Union because it is better for Scotland and for the UK economically. It was true then and it remains true today.

Finally Ed should say Cameron and Johnson are acting like children and are prepared to force the break up of the UK just to stay in power. This will make everybody poorer. Miliband should say this must not be permitted and he will stand up to protect the union, and that means treating all nations within it with respect. Finally sign off with the argument a vote for Cameron will break up the UK, only Labour will fight to keep it. If Scotland one day wishes to leave it should not be because of the childish insults of the Tories.

That will have the traditional Tories snarling at Cameron.

He also needs to land a big fat smack on David Lammy's mouth !

When pressed, Mr Lammy went on to say: "Look, I want a progressive government. I want it to be a Labour government but in the event that it's not a Labour government, clearly there is common ground between us on the centre left and that would include the SNP."

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-04-20/seni ... -possible/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[citizenJA]

They also need to get this analysis of SNP manifesto out wide and far
One, two, three, what are we fighting for?

http://labourlist.org/2015/04/one-two-t ... hting-for/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(With thank to original poster earlier)

Night all

Goodnight, AAW.

[adam]

Not sure if we've had this, but some very very good stuff from Frankie Boyle in the Guardian (with one 'crossing far over the line' comment which I think has a proper serious point to it)

Britain's criminally stupid attitudes to race and immigration are beyond parody. The anti-immigration election rhetoric is perverse – we fear the arrival of people that we have drawn here with the wealth we stole from them.

...

Even our charity is essentially patronising. Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day. Give him a fishing rod and he can feed himself. Alternatively, don’t poison the fishing waters, abduct his great-grandparents into slavery, then turn up 400 years later on your gap year talking a lot of shite about fish.

Edited to add - not nice about Labour/Miliband but that mug was asking for something and I think this is it.

[citizenJA]

Miliband had tried to explain the rules of the House of Commons to Davis but Davis wasn't too sharp tonight so Miliband said,

"It ain' gonna hap'em, it ain' gonna hap'em,"

after Davis went on & on about the SNP 'calling the shots' by refusing to support laws it didn't like.
It's important to roll those sounds off fast, without waste of time.
It was effective.
Davis didn't know what to say next.

[citizenJA]

Not sure if we've had this, but some very very good stuff from Frankie Boyle in the Guardian (with one 'crossing far over the line' comment which I think has a proper serious point to it)

Britain's criminally stupid attitudes to race and immigration are beyond parody. The anti-immigration election rhetoric is perverse – we fear the arrival of people that we have drawn here with the wealth we stole from them.

...

Even our charity is essentially patronising. Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day. Give him a fishing rod and he can feed himself. Alternatively, don’t poison the fishing waters, abduct his great-grandparents into slavery, then turn up 400 years later on your gap year talking a lot of shite about fish.

Edited to add - not nice about Labour/Miliband but that mug was asking for something and I think this is it.

Making sure UK Border staff have enough people to cordially maintain order? That damn Heathrow is poorly staffed. Tories fired everyone & made those left to organise it all work harder for less.

[TechnicalEphemera]

I think Ed needs to head off Cameron's SNP strategy by going for the jugular and I think he has cover to do it - thanks to Tory mutterings.

Ed should attack Cameron for demonising the Scots, point out they are part of the UK and their votes count the same whoever they vote for. He should then quote Boris at him and state how outrageous it all is. He should then say Labour campaigned for the Union because it is better for Scotland and for the UK economically. It was true then and it remains true today.

Finally Ed should say Cameron and Johnson are acting like children and are prepared to force the break up of the UK just to stay in power. This will make everybody poorer. Miliband should say this must not be permitted and he will stand up to protect the union, and that means treating all nations within it with respect. Finally sign off with the argument a vote for Cameron will break up the UK, only Labour will fight to keep it. If Scotland one day wishes to leave it should not be because of the childish insults of the Tories.

That will have the traditional Tories snarling at Cameron.

He also needs to land a big fat smack on David Lammy's mouth !

When pressed, Mr Lammy went on to say: "Look, I want a progressive government. I want it to be a Labour government but in the event that it's not a Labour government, clearly there is common ground between us on the centre left and that would include the SNP."

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-04-20/seni ... -possible/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lammy is a complete liability, the natural heir to Dianne Abbott in every way.

How does Labour manage to land itself with such muppets?

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Aaaaaargh

[TechnicalEphemera]

Aaaaaargh

Do try not to trip over the corpse of Tory integrity. It hurts when you kick it.

[pk1]

Toby Perkins has issued a statement regarding the front page smear by the Scum:

Statement on Campaign volunteers
Posted on 20 April 2015.

The Sun newspaper’s story in 21st April edition is entirely misleading.

The people working on my election campaign are doing so in a voluntary capacity.

Two of the Volunteers are students on 4 year Politics degrees who have during their third year have been based in my office in Westminster and wanted to volunteer in the General Election campaign.

The other two are local young party members who were between jobs and were wanting to dedicate themselves to the General election campaign.

The local party arranged to cover their expenses.

It is completely misleading to suggest that they are paid £4 a day, they are volunteers and they receive expenses towards costs incurred but are not paid at all. For clarification, no further payments will be made and their status as Campaign Volunteers re-iterated to all local party members.

It's ridiculous that newspapers are allowed to smear all & sundry at the behest of an owner with a personal grudge against a political Leader.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Aaaaaargh

Do try not to trip over the corpse of Tory integrity. It hurts when you kick it.

Great response TE, wow.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean - probably mainly the fault of my rather random post.

[LadyCentauria]

Aaaaaargh

What happened? Are you ok?

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Aaaaaargh

What happened? Are you ok?

Thanks Lady C I'm fine.

It's no secret I'm frustrated with the continued attacks on "Nats" here. I've made my point a few times and perhaps it's time for me to wander on.

Why? Good question. I'm very much a unionist and believe we are stronger together. I don't support the SNP or Plaid. BUT it seems quite likely that the best outcome of the next GE is an agreement between Miliband and Sturgeon. Why can't we explore here what that might look like? A new constitutional settlement? Sturgeon has just said she would make end of austerity a condition of such an agreement. Well hurrah!

I'm the same in my professional life, avoiding conflict and looking for opportunities in apparent adversity. Maybe it is time for me to move on from this forum. The "Nats" seem to be the enemy just as much as the Tories and that doesn't suit me. That's me and I respect everyone else's views.

But I love all my friends here. Night night.

[LadyCentauria]

Just noticed we've got a new member so here's a warm late-night welcome to Oblomov. Do come in and join us – assuming you have internet in your bed

[pk1]

Paul

Please don't go !

I don't like arguments, ill feeling & conflict either so now I take a back seat when it rises again but in saying that, I don't think anybody has said the Nats are the 'enemy' but they are the reason there won't be a majority Labour govt on May 8th. They are very aggressive toward anybody not voting SNP & that frightens people; some people withdraw whilst others will fight back.

I think we are all worried that we might still have a Tory govt returned on May 8th but this is no time for you to leave us !!

Please reconsider.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Paul

Please don't go !

I don't like arguments, ill feeling & conflict either so now I take a back seat when it rises again but in saying that, I don't think anybody has said the Nats are the 'enemy' but they are the reason there won't be a majority Labour govt on May 8th. They are very aggressive toward anybody not voting SNP & that frightens people; some people withdraw whilst others will fight back.

I think we are all worried that we might still have a Tory govt returned on May 8th but this is no time for you to leave us !!

Please reconsider.

Thanks pk

Really appreciate this post. But, while there are I'm sure some aggressive "Nats", I believe that the breadth of feeling in Scotland shows reasonable folk want a new constitutional settlement for the UK, which I too believe is desperately needed (out with the monarchy and lords at the same time if I had my way).

We're a democracy. If the electorate tell us on May 7th that Miliband and Sturgeon need to get together and sort things out that's the peoples' voice. And they are clearly both strong, able leaders.

I would hope we could devote some time here to thinking about how that might work. I loved your comments about Ephemerid influencing policy on disability. I'd lie this Forum to be thinking about a Labour / SNP world and what the issues are.

I was excited about Sturgeon's comments about ending austerity being a condition of agreement with a major party. Well hurrah. Miliband can't get his austerity budget through because the SNP will vote against him so they have to relax it a bit. What's not to like? Of course Sturgeon wants devo max, but it's already been promised.

There is no way Miliband will agree to a new referendum on independence, so what do we truly fear from the SNP?

And to finish, why do we think the Tory press focus so much on the Scotland issue? Because they have nothing left to lose there. Unless you're afraid of the SNP, an election is being fought in England that could dispatch the Tory party for good.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

PS I'm not flouncing off. I just feel like I'm saying things others don't want to hear, so maybe best go away?

[LadyCentauria]

Aaaaaargh

What happened? Are you ok?

Thanks Lady C I'm fine.

It's no secret I'm frustrated with the continued attacks on "Nats" here. I've made my point a few times and perhaps it's time for me to wander on.

Why? Good question. I'm very much a unionist and believe we are stronger together. I don't support the SNP or Plaid. BUT it seems quite likely that the best outcome of the next GE is an agreement between Miliband and Sturgeon. Why can't we explore here what that might look like? A new constitutional settlement? Sturgeon has just said she would make end of austerity a condition of such an agreement. Well hurrah!

I'm the same in my professional life, avoiding conflict and looking for opportunities in apparent adversity. Maybe it is time for me to move on from this forum. The "Nats" seem to be the enemy just as much as the Tories and that doesn't suit me. That's me and I respect everyone else's views.

But I love all my friends here. Night night.

Please stay, Paul. We (well, our elected representatives) are going to have to find a way to work with all the SNP members in the next Parliament. Relationships in the house have been cordial, for the most part, so far. The SNP have, very frequently, voted with Labour and I expect that that will be the case after Election Day, too; but with a greatly increased number of SNP MPs, even if Scotland doesn't elect quite as many of them as the polls currently suggest.

I think that most people who vote SNP would be embarrassed by the tactics of some people (including external agitators like WoS) and might even change who they vote for because of the 'hunting' antics and social-media abuse perpetrated by so-called 'cyberNats'. I don't think we should sink to those levels – we can, surely, criticise policies and argue against statements (and actions) with passion but not get drawn into a hatred-war. I've been a supporter of Scottish Independence for most of my life and deeply regret that there wasn't a Devo-Max option on that referendum ballot because I didn't think the time was right for full independence, nor the right plan, last year. So, I'd have regretfully voted No had I been there, had a planned move gone ahead.

We need to remember who the 'enemy' really is, here, and it isn't the SNP. It's the avowedly right-wing parties, those who want to shrink our public services to a shadowy remnant of their former selves, who want to wreck the Social Security safety-net (and remember, a safety-net is a collection of holes loosely held together with string), those who want to set the poor against the poor, the slightly-disabled or a bit ill against the more-disabled and long-term ill, the settled against the transient, the 'natives' against the 'incomers', north against south, east against west, nation against nation, and so on and so on.

I remember FTN being introduced to me as 'a broadly left-leaning forum.' Perhaps we need that, or summat like it, emblazoned across the top of the page, with some emphasis on 'broadly'. Let's not lose any more good people.

[pk1]

No, don't go away.

Stay and make your case !

FWIW in many ways I agree with you. I think EM will choose to run a minority govt with LD/SNP support. Look at the SNP manifesto & on the main points, it's almost the same as Labours. It's almost as if they chose to delay the launch in order to ensure it was a good fit with Labour's......

I'm listening to a DP Environment & Climate Change debate & just as most of us cannot conceive of a coalition with Nick Clegg, Danny Alexander & David Laws - to which I would add Ed Davey. He was almost spitting venom toward Caroline Flint & Labours record on CC & the environment.

I reiterate my plea - don't go !

It's late & I'm falling asleep so good night & see you when the sun has risen x

[pk1]

@Lady C

A thumbs up was inadequate & I want to thank you for your post - I agree with most of it (esp. The external agitators)

Good night x

[Tizme1]

Post deleted.

No amount of persuasion will affect those who believe they have found their political holy grail - be it Plaid, SNP or Greens. Or UKIP.

We have to make our own mistakes in search of the 'new politics'.
Five years will give plenty of time to reflect.

Or Labour.

[LadyCentauria]

I'm in agreement with both of you, pk1 and PfY. We have more in common with SNP policy than not, and we seriously do need to roll the austerity programme backwards because it's doing the country no good. We also need to think seriously about replacement-Trident – what does it really need to be and where is really the best place for it – given the subs seem to crash so often around Faslane...

@pk1, have you got a link to that debate please. I caught a few minutes of it early but don't remember what channel it was on.

[LadyCentauria]

Post deleted.

No amount of persuasion will affect those who believe they have found their political holy grail - be it Plaid, SNP or Greens. Or UKIP.

We have to make our own mistakes in search of the 'new politics'.
Five years will give plenty of time to reflect.

Or Labour.

Yep, all and any of us could be wrong. We have to vote where our hearts, heads, and consciences lead us. And, in the meantime, try to be excellent to each other

[LadyCentauria]

Found the DP Energy & Climate Change Debate:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... ate-change

I still wish there were an official Green Labour grouping...