Friday 8th May 2015

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 08 May, 2015 7:56 pm

Has anyone heard a peep from Esther?

Tony2602 · Post by **Tony2602** » Fri 08 May, 2015 7:57 pm

Good evening everyone. Long-time "lurker" here, hope you don't mind my popping in. . .

It has been a terrible day. That exit poll last night was like a kick in the stomach. As some have said, it feels like a death in the family. It really does. Going into work today, knowing that some of my "colleagues" had voted Tory or, worse, kipper was sickening. Mind you, when the shit does hit the fan they'll be the first to come whinging. I know this is not what a union rep should do, but I've been muttering all day about drawing up a "list" for that eventuality. What the hell, it worked for Nixon.

Depressed? You bet I am. But at lunchtime I got an email from my Branch Secretary (who's great), and she's been rallying the troops. In the cold light of evening, things do look a wee bit better. That puffin-faced prick has a majority of c. 16 counting the UUP, the DUP, the kipper and the Speaker (who votes with the government in a tie). Sixteen. One or two accidents, one or two scandals (do any spring to mind?), the bucket of shit Gideon left for EB about to fall. . . and it's 1992 all over again. Not to mention his pledge for a Euro referendum: his usual backers won't be in his corner for that one. With Fuhrage gone (hopefully) the kippers may implode; they always were a one-man band. The important thing is for us to stay strong, to stay united and stay true to what we believe. The Tory creed is based on greed, fear, hatred and selfishness; an unhealthy and unstable mixture. We are better than that.

I'd like to remind you of what a great Labour leader once said, and these words have helped me get through today, will help me tomorrow and for the next 1,826 of them if needs be. I hope it helps all you good and kind people in pain right now:

""We may lose the vote today, and the result may deal this party a grave blow. It may not be possible to prevent it, but there are some of us, I think many of us, who will not accept that this blow need be mortal: who will not believe that such an end is inevitable. There are some of us who will fight, and fight, and fight again, to save the party we love. We will fight, and fight, and fight again, to bring back sanity and honesty and dignity, so that our party – with its great past – may retain its glory and its greatness. " - Hugh Gaitskell, 5 October 1960.

Stay strong good people. God bless you all.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 08 May, 2015 7:58 pm

Please note that the unfortunate juxtaposition of Stephen Dolan's post and mine on Esther is entirely that - unfortunate that is.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 08 May, 2015 7:59 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I too will miss Ed Miliband. This is what is pissing me off most at this exact moment. John Smith never had his chance, and now Miliband will not either. Such a hideous waste. After all he has withstood, with the odd so stacked against him. It's stupid.

I hope he will continue to work on this, and that - as Robert urges - we do not start another period of review and intrspecition - which translates into inertia with respect to what's needed while the Tories just get on with trashing the country.

You've said it more succinctly than I. Thank you

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:01 pm

Tony2602 wrote:Good evening everyone. Long-time "lurker" here, hope you don't mind my popping in. . .

It has been a terrible day. That exit poll last night was like a kick in the stomach. As some have said, it feels like a death in the family. It really does. Going into work today, knowing that some of my "colleagues" had voted Tory or, worse, kipper was sickening. Mind you, when the shit does hit the fan they'll be the first to come whinging. I know this is not what a union rep should do, but I've been muttering all day about drawing up a "list" for that eventuality. What the hell, it worked for Nixon.

Depressed? You bet I am. But at lunchtime I got an email from my Branch Secretary (who's great), and she's been rallying the troops. In the cold light of evening, things do look a wee bit better. That puffin-faced prick has a majority of c. 16 counting the UUP, the DUP, the kipper and the Speaker (who votes with the government in a tie). Sixteen. One or two accidents, one or two scandals (do any spring to mind?), the bucket of shit Gideon left for EB about to fall. . . and it's 1992 all over again. Not to mention his pledge for a Euro referendum: his usual backers won't be in his corner for that one. With Fuhrage gone (hopefully) the kippers may implode; they always were a one-man band. The important thing is for us to stay strong, to stay united and stay true to what we believe. The Tory creed is based on greed, fear, hatred and selfishness; an unhealthy and unstable mixture. We are better than that.

I'd like to remind you of what a great Labour leader once said, and these words have helped me get through today, will help me tomorrow and for the next 1,826 of them if needs be. I hope it helps all you good and kind people in pain right now:

""We may lose the vote today, and the result may deal this party a grave blow. It may not be possible to prevent it, but there are some of us, I think many of us, who will not accept that this blow need be mortal: who will not believe that such an end is inevitable. There are some of us who will fight, and fight, and fight again, to save the party we love. We will fight, and fight, and fight again, to bring back sanity and honesty and dignity, so that our party – with its great past – may retain its glory and its greatness. " - Hugh Gaitskell, 5 October 1960.

Stay strong good people. God bless you all.

Ah - we've no thanks button at present - I guarantee that post would have racked up quite some thanks otherwise. And welcome - please don't lurk so much in future. Come in and chat.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:03 pm

Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE 2m2 minutes ago
Under PR Ukip would have got 83 seats instead of 1.

Lib Dems would have got 53 MPs not 8.

I can't decide which is the worst option between PR and FPTP now .... both can deal bloody awful results.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:04 pm

Tony2602 wrote:Good evening everyone. Long-time "lurker" here, hope you don't mind my popping in. . .

It has been a terrible day. That exit poll last night was like a kick in the stomach. As some have said, it feels like a death in the family. It really does. Going into work today, knowing that some of my "colleagues" had voted Tory or, worse, kipper was sickening. Mind you, when the shit does hit the fan they'll be the first to come whinging. I know this is not what a union rep should do, but I've been muttering all day about drawing up a "list" for that eventuality. What the hell, it worked for Nixon.

Depressed? You bet I am. But at lunchtime I got an email from my Branch Secretary (who's great), and she's been rallying the troops. In the cold light of evening, things do look a wee bit better. That puffin-faced prick has a majority of c. 16 counting the UUP, the DUP, the kipper and the Speaker (who votes with the government in a tie). Sixteen. One or two accidents, one or two scandals (do any spring to mind?), the bucket of shit Gideon left for EB about to fall. . . and it's 1992 all over again. Not to mention his pledge for a Euro referendum: his usual backers won't be in his corner for that one. With Fuhrage gone (hopefully) the kippers may implode; they always were a one-man band. The important thing is for us to stay strong, to stay united and stay true to what we believe. The Tory creed is based on greed, fear, hatred and selfishness; an unhealthy and unstable mixture. We are better than that.

I'd like to remind you of what a great Labour leader once said, and these words have helped me get through today, will help me tomorrow and for the next 1,826 of them if needs be. I hope it helps all you good and kind people in pain right now:

""We may lose the vote today, and the result may deal this party a grave blow. It may not be possible to prevent it, but there are some of us, I think many of us, who will not accept that this blow need be mortal: who will not believe that such an end is inevitable. There are some of us who will fight, and fight, and fight again, to save the party we love. We will fight, and fight, and fight again, to bring back sanity and honesty and dignity, so that our party – with its great past – may retain its glory and its greatness. " - Hugh Gaitskell, 5 October 1960.

Stay strong good people. God bless you all.

Nearly crying again now. Inspirational words from Gaitskell. Thanks for that Tony2602

And welcome to the nest.

Make yourself at home and I feel free to pop in any time you like.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:05 pm

Dr. Brian May ‏@DrBrianMay 5h5 hours ago
Gutted. Sad, Angry. Trying hard to see something good in this election result. Can't imagine a worse setback for decency and compassion. Bri

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:05 pm

@Tony2602

Thank you. (As rebeccariots2 has mentioned, the thanks button is up the shoot at present. We can't get the staff . . . )

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:05 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:This is pretty excoriating stuff from Paul Mason.

Labour haven’t just failed to win – it’s worse than that - See more at: http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-bl ... a5nUf.dpuf

In seat after seat that Labour held you get a Lib Dem collapse, a holdup of the Tory vote, and a 4-5,000 surge for Ukip.

My hunch is that the Lib Dem votes went mainly to the Tories – and that a lot of it was tactical in response to pleas by the Conservative press for tactical voting to avoid a de facto Labour/SNP majority.

The Ukip surge clearly came largely from Labour voters – as evidenced by the close shaves Labour had with Ukip in Hartlepool and Heywood and Middleton.

What does this tells us?

Labour in England was fighting a campaign about fairness, less austerity and the NHS. But the SNP surge made the debate exactly about what Cameron said it was: who can form a non-chaotic and legitimate government of the UK.

Having been told the SNP were akin to a Scottish Sinn Fein by the Labour leadership, once this became the salient issue, Labour’s heartland economic agenda had no traction.

And make no mistake, a significant section of working class labour voters are still not convinced on freedom of movement. That – not Euroscepticism – is what is driving the Ukip vote in the north and in Wales.
I think I agree with the first couple of points ... the observation about the voting patterns in many seats.

I don't think the Labour leadership are entirely culpable re making the SNP out to be 'akin to a Scottish Sinn Fein' though - I think the Tories and media had a lot to do with that and provoking a response - right or not - from Labour.

I agree with you.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:05 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE 2m2 minutes ago
Under PR Ukip would have got 83 seats instead of 1.

Lib Dems would have got 53 MPs not 8.
I can't decide which is the worst option between PR and FPTP now .... both can deal bloody awful results.

And the SNP, with about 50% of the vote would only have about 30.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:08 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:I too will miss Ed Miliband. This is what is pissing me off most at this exact moment. John Smith never had his chance, and now Miliband will not either. Such a hideous waste. After all he has withstood, with the odd so stacked against him. It's stupid.

I hope he will continue to work on this, and that - as Robert urges - we do not start another period of review and intrspecition - which translates into inertia with respect to what's needed while the Tories just get on with trashing the country.
You've said it more succinctly than I. Thank you

I agree, the Tories will move quickly to corrupt our constitution. Labour needs strong voices now to hold them to account. Khan should be put on point and told to get aggressive.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:09 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE 2m2 minutes ago
Under PR Ukip would have got 83 seats instead of 1.

Lib Dems would have got 53 MPs not 8.
I can't decide which is the worst option between PR and FPTP now .... both can deal bloody awful results.
And the SNP, with about 50% of the vote would only have about 30.

You would have a Tory/UKIP government if that helps any.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:12 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I too will miss Ed Miliband. This is what is pissing me off most at this exact moment. John Smith never had his chance, and now Miliband will not either. Such a hideous waste. After all he has withstood, with the odd so stacked against him. It's stupid.

I hope he will continue to work on this, and that - as Robert urges - we do not start another period of review and intrspecition - which translates into inertia with respect to what's needed while the Tories just get on with trashing the country.

I would really like to see the PLP ask him to stand again - but I don't suppose they will.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:12 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Please note that the unfortunate juxtaposition of Stephen Dolan's post and mine on Esther is entirely that - unfortunate that is.

Tony2602 · Post by **Tony2602** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:12 pm

Hi Rebecca, hi Dreamer, hi everyone. Thanks for the warm welcome. Will be in and out, depending on what mood this damn laptop is in. I know he was seen as a divisive figure, but I've always had a soft spot for old Hugh (Ed reminded me so much of him). Just remember: our Labour party has survived a hundred years of the Daily Heil, the Zinoviev letter, Ramsay fucking MacDonald, the National Goverment, Derek Hatton, the Grantham Gargoyle and - let's be honest - Tony Blair. I've been a member since I was seventeen. I'm buggered if I'm letting that puffin-faced prick get the better of us.

If anyone's active in their union, try doing what I've done and ask for an emergency branch meeting. If you're not active, think about giving it a try - it's fun! The fightback starts Monday. Together we can sweep that puffin-faced prick into the gutter of history. They didn't beat us before. They're not going to now.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:12 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: I can't decide which is the worst option between PR and FPTP now .... both can deal bloody awful results.
And the SNP, with about 50% of the vote would only have about 30.
You would have a Tory/UKIP government if that helps any.

Very helpful. Galvanises me even more to start working with others locally to look at and try to address why people have voted for Ukip here ... because with Assembly elections next year based on PR the potential outcome is scary.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:13 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:Please note that the unfortunate juxtaposition of Stephen Dolan's post and mine on Esther is entirely that - unfortunate that is.

I hoped someone might like that.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:15 pm

Tony2602 wrote:Good evening everyone. Long-time "lurker" here, hope you don't mind my popping in. . .

It has been a terrible day. That exit poll last night was like a kick in the stomach. As some have said, it feels like a death in the family. It really does. Going into work today, knowing that some of my "colleagues" had voted Tory or, worse, kipper was sickening. Mind you, when the shit does hit the fan they'll be the first to come whinging. I know this is not what a union rep should do, but I've been muttering all day about drawing up a "list" for that eventuality. What the hell, it worked for Nixon.

Depressed? You bet I am. But at lunchtime I got an email from my Branch Secretary (who's great), and she's been rallying the troops. In the cold light of evening, things do look a wee bit better. That puffin-faced prick has a majority of c. 16 counting the UUP, the DUP, the kipper and the Speaker (who votes with the government in a tie). Sixteen. One or two accidents, one or two scandals (do any spring to mind?), the bucket of shit Gideon left for EB about to fall. . . and it's 1992 all over again. Not to mention his pledge for a Euro referendum: his usual backers won't be in his corner for that one. With Fuhrage gone (hopefully) the kippers may implode; they always were a one-man band. The important thing is for us to stay strong, to stay united and stay true to what we believe. The Tory creed is based on greed, fear, hatred and selfishness; an unhealthy and unstable mixture. We are better than that.

I'd like to remind you of what a great Labour leader once said, and these words have helped me get through today, will help me tomorrow and for the next 1,826 of them if needs be. I hope it helps all you good and kind people in pain right now:

""We may lose the vote today, and the result may deal this party a grave blow. It may not be possible to prevent it, but there are some of us, I think many of us, who will not accept that this blow need be mortal: who will not believe that such an end is inevitable. There are some of us who will fight, and fight, and fight again, to save the party we love. We will fight, and fight, and fight again, to bring back sanity and honesty and dignity, so that our party – with its great past – may retain its glory and its greatness. " - Hugh Gaitskell, 5 October 1960.

Stay strong good people. God bless you all.

Beautifully put. And do draw up that list; I get that we're supposed to be the good guys, caring, compassionate, looking out for all, but some people have sacrificed that privilege. Right here, right now we look after our own and the others can live with the consequences of their choices.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:20 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:All right, after suggesting that we have more than enough analysis, I see there are people who want to completely trash everything and either start again or go back to 1994, so I'm chipping in to set out my particular stall.

Here's where I think Labour could have done something different/better:

1) communicated a more cohesive economic vision - both in terms of an assessment of where things were where they were and a model for fixing it. 'Cost of living crisis' didn't really do it. Labour needed to articulate the massive loss of tax revenue from the financial sector causing the bulk of the deficit post 2008, and drive relentlessly at the failure in productivity and extent of underemployment behind the coalition's 'jobs miracle'. Above all they needed to get this clear and fight the Tories and LibDems relentlessly. By April 2015 it was far, far too late
2) Developed some of the woolier ideas into a framework that people could understand. Predistribution, predators vs producers, etc - these were good analyses and led to good ideas but they never got honed into a comprehensible vision. Even the Big Society was easier to get. Above all, formulate a vision for what Britain looks like under Labour much earlier than they did.
3) Got off the fence on immigration and social security. For too long the party dithered. It got there on immigration (where the ideas could still have been better communicated) but they needed to fight the xenophobic Tory and Ukip line. They were never going to agree with it, so they needed to stop pussyfooting. Ditto social security. There were no votes in being a slightly more efficient version of the Tories. Again, they sort of got there with the Bedroom Tax but it was too little, too late.
4) Emphasised that the energy price freeze was to enable the separation of producers and suppliers. The freeze in itself was popular but too easy to criticise and spokespeople didn't try hard enough to set out why the bit about the whole market was important

And where I think Team Miliband was spot on.

1) The press, Leveson, facing up to Murdoch. Not a foot wrong. The only thing was that they could have reminded people a bit more later on that pressure from Ed led to the Leveson enquiry, which Cameron then ducked
2) The NHS
3) Modernising the party's relationship with the trade unions in a way that didn't alienate them
4) Focusing on the problems of Generation Rent in a constructive way. By and large this was communicated well and clearly. It would have made a good plank in that overall vision that never quite felt as if it got there

Thing is, if Labour bows to big business, the super-rich and forgoes any kind of leftwing policy because it might upset the financial markets, then it doesn't really matter if they win, because we've just told unelected elites and speculators that this democracy thing is a bit of a sham and they're the ones who really run Britain.

Yes.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:20 pm

abby #ThankYouEd ‏@twcuddleston · 58s58 seconds ago
Hi we're the #milifandom and for our audition we'll be singing "I want you back" by the Jackson 5 #ThankYouEd

The girl is a force of nature. Stuck two fingers up to Murdoch and Mensch, created a movement and is now leading a call to ask Ed to reconsider - I wouldn't bet against her succeeding either!! She punted the idea for #ThankYouEd earlier this evening and it has flown straight to the top of the trends.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:22 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:I too will miss Ed Miliband. This is what is pissing me off most at this exact moment. John Smith never had his chance, and now Miliband will not either. Such a hideous waste. After all he has withstood, with the odd so stacked against him. It's stupid.

I hope he will continue to work on this, and that - as Robert urges - we do not start another period of review and intrspecition - which translates into inertia with respect to what's needed while the Tories just get on with trashing the country.
You've said it more succinctly than I. Thank you
I agree, the Tories will move quickly to corrupt our constitution. Labour needs strong voices now to hold them to account. Khan should be put on point and told to get aggressive.

And Keir Starmer.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:22 pm

PorFavor wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote: Tents don't get much bigger than One Nation.

The public preferred Labour's policy platform, even (or perhaps because) they didn't realise it was Labour's. The basic framework wasn't the problem. We MUST NOT throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Well said, Robert. Labour's vote share increased, not by enough and not in the right places, but it did increase. When Miliband was elected most people were saying it'd probably take two terms to rebuild and a great many said he should be given that time. At that time, the SNP were newly elected as a majority Government in Scotland and had only achieved a handful of Westminster MPs, and UKIP were a minor fringe party who 'only got EU seats because of proportional representation.' Then, Cameron gave the SNP a referendum which enthused and empowered many of Scotland's powerless and UKIP had a 'landslide' in the EU by reflecting the Nationalism they saw in Scotland, and enthusing and empowering a portion of England's and Wales' (predominantly) powerless.

Labour's new message was cutting through. Support was building. Perhaps we (all the party) mistook the long-run of high polling that oppositions benefit from for the way it was going to be. Perhaps we failed to consider that dropping down to level-pegging could not mean a landslide for Labour when the other opposition parties were increasing their percentages too. We weren't at all prepared for the not-winning in 2015 that we'd expected back in 2010. And so, when it happened, the leaders who hadn't won acted as though they'd lost and fell on their swords. Our leader was allowed to fall on his sword because everyone had forgotten that perhaps no-one could have turned defeat to success in one term. We were supposed to be beyond short-termism but it bloody happened again.

The 'entire Miliband project' wasn't 'a disastrous mistake.' It was just partway through and needed some tweaking. It had made it from loser to runner up. And now it might not get a chance to become a winner next time unless it's built on and taken forward instead of destroyed. And that makes me sad.

(Not proof-reading, typos will have to stand.)

I don't know if you saw my edit added to an earlier post (below). If so, I apologise for the repeat but I think it needed to be said. There's no hope if crowing and gloating are to be the tactics employed for shaping Labour's future.

[from me (PorFavor) to SpinningHugo]

I appreciate that you and I have different views on the future of the Labour Party but I would suggest that your, frankly brutal, approach to people who are feeling bruised is not the way to build a cohesive Party and avoid destructive fractures in the future. I was prepared to give more space to the LibDems than you seem to be prepared to grant many of us here.

I did, PF. Thank you. Missing the thanks button a lot, now – and I was managing so well without it for a short while...

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:27 pm

Tony2602 wrote:Hi Rebecca, hi Dreamer, hi everyone. Thanks for the warm welcome. Will be in and out, depending on what mood this damn laptop is in. I know he was seen as a divisive figure, but I've always had a soft spot for old Hugh (Ed reminded me so much of him). Just remember: our Labour party has survived a hundred years of the Daily Heil, the Zinoviev letter, Ramsay fucking MacDonald, the National Goverment, Derek Hatton, the Grantham Gargoyle and - let's be honest - Tony Blair. I've been a member since I was seventeen. I'm buggered if I'm letting that puffin-faced prick get the better of us.

If anyone's active in their union, try doing what I've done and ask for an emergency branch meeting. If you're not active, think about giving it a try - it's fun! The fightback starts Monday. Together we can sweep that puffin-faced prick into the gutter of history. They didn't beat us before. They're not going to now.

Thank you for both posts

and welcome, pull up a chair and have some cake (if we have any)

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:30 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
abby #ThankYouEd ‏@twcuddleston · 58s58 seconds ago
Hi we're the #milifandom and for our audition we'll be singing "I want you back" by the Jackson 5 #ThankYouEd
The girl is a force of nature. Stuck two fingers up to Murdoch and Mensch, created a movement and is now leading a call to ask Ed to reconsider - I wouldn't bet against her succeeding either!! She punted the idea for #ThankYouEd earlier this evening and it has flown straight to the top of the trends.

I've been seriously thinking about one of those petitions (change or whatever) if we could get a good person to start it and we could get load of names - could we get him back? Or am I being silly?

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:31 pm

Tony2602 wrote:Good evening everyone. Long-time "lurker" here, hope you don't mind my popping in. . .

It has been a terrible day. That exit poll last night was like a kick in the stomach. As some have said, it feels like a death in the family. It really does. Going into work today, knowing that some of my "colleagues" had voted Tory or, worse, kipper was sickening. Mind you, when the shit does hit the fan they'll be the first to come whinging. I know this is not what a union rep should do, but I've been muttering all day about drawing up a "list" for that eventuality. What the hell, it worked for Nixon.

Depressed? You bet I am. But at lunchtime I got an email from my Branch Secretary (who's great), and she's been rallying the troops. In the cold light of evening, things do look a wee bit better. That puffin-faced prick has a majority of c. 16 counting the UUP, the DUP, the kipper and the Speaker (who votes with the government in a tie). Sixteen. One or two accidents, one or two scandals (do any spring to mind?), the bucket of shit Gideon left for EB about to fall. . . and it's 1992 all over again. Not to mention his pledge for a Euro referendum: his usual backers won't be in his corner for that one. With Fuhrage gone (hopefully) the kippers may implode; they always were a one-man band. The important thing is for us to stay strong, to stay united and stay true to what we believe. The Tory creed is based on greed, fear, hatred and selfishness; an unhealthy and unstable mixture. We are better than that.

I'd like to remind you of what a great Labour leader once said, and these words have helped me get through today, will help me tomorrow and for the next 1,826 of them if needs be. I hope it helps all you good and kind people in pain right now:

""We may lose the vote today, and the result may deal this party a grave blow. It may not be possible to prevent it, but there are some of us, I think many of us, who will not accept that this blow need be mortal: who will not believe that such an end is inevitable. There are some of us who will fight, and fight, and fight again, to save the party we love. We will fight, and fight, and fight again, to bring back sanity and honesty and dignity, so that our party – with its great past – may retain its glory and its greatness. " - Hugh Gaitskell, 5 October 1960.

Stay strong good people. God bless you all.

Thank you so much, @Tony2602, and please be welcome here. We rarely bite

Wise words from you and from Hugh Gaitskell.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:33 pm

UKIP were invited to QT (starting now on BBC TWO) but 'no-one was available to come.' So, Paddy Ashdown, Alastair Campbell, Jim Murphy (and I can't focus well enough to identify oh... Francis Maude... and others.)

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:33 pm

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but allow me one, Murphy saying that homes in London would pay for Scottish nurses was a mistake, now if another said mansions would get taxed to pay for affordable homes in the south east that would have been more palatable. Scotland has more per head than any other region apart from NI as it is.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:36 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote: You've said it more succinctly than I. Thank you
I agree, the Tories will move quickly to corrupt our constitution. Labour needs strong voices now to hold them to account. Khan should be put on point and told to get aggressive.
And Keir Starmer.

Oh yes. Thank you for reminding me that he was elected. Great addition to the Labour ranks with good legal / judicial knowledge.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:36 pm

Many are failing to realise that a big chunk of those we once thought of as solid Labour voters are now extremely right wing in some of their views.

A lot of working class Labour hate the system where single mothers get a house, have most of their rent paid, and then frequently go on to have a couple more children by different, absent fathers. And yes I could personally give you quite a few names.
The old Labour voters have children of their own who marry or enter into a settled partnership. They do the right thing but will never be able to buy their own home, and now haven't a bats chance in hell of getting a council house, even though they were born in the town.
And now for them, it adds insult to injury to see more and more immigants moving here, many of whom get priority because of their needs.
I believe Obama's step mother was one such imigrant. Not sure if she still lives here...

Perhaps Ed could have beefed up the rhetoric on the more inflammable subjects, but while it might have pleased one lot it would have offended another.

I guarantee that'll be why Labour voters changed to Conservative or UKIP.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:37 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
abby #ThankYouEd ‏@twcuddleston · 58s58 seconds ago
Hi we're the #milifandom and for our audition we'll be singing "I want you back" by the Jackson 5 #ThankYouEd
The girl is a force of nature. Stuck two fingers up to Murdoch and Mensch, created a movement and is now leading a call to ask Ed to reconsider - I wouldn't bet against her succeeding either!! She punted the idea for #ThankYouEd earlier this evening and it has flown straight to the top of the trends.

Oh what a great lass

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:38 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote: You've said it more succinctly than I. Thank you
I agree, the Tories will move quickly to corrupt our constitution. Labour needs strong voices now to hold them to account. Khan should be put on point and told to get aggressive.
And Keir Starmer.

Seconded!

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:42 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
abby #ThankYouEd ‏@twcuddleston · 58s58 seconds ago
Hi we're the #milifandom and for our audition we'll be singing "I want you back" by the Jackson 5 #ThankYouEd
The girl is a force of nature. Stuck two fingers up to Murdoch and Mensch, created a movement and is now leading a call to ask Ed to reconsider - I wouldn't bet against her succeeding either!! She punted the idea for #ThankYouEd earlier this evening and it has flown straight to the top of the trends.
I've been seriously thinking about one of those petitions (change or whatever) if we could get a good person to start it and we could get load of names - could we get him back? Or am I being silly?

I don't think you are. Maybe he just doesn't have the appetite for it any more but who knows; give it a day or so to let the dust settle and tempers cool, and he might be persuaded to throw his hat back in the ring - it worked for John Major, he came back stronger after he put himself up for re-election and Ed is three times the man Major was. And, as I said, I wouldn't put anything past that girl at the moment; I share a lot of Ohso's frustration but with people luke her and the Whippersnap crew it isn't all bleak.

Blimey, listen to us all. 12 hours ago we were all ready for a Dignitas group booking and now we're planning a comeback tour.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:43 pm

Tony2602 wrote:Hi Rebecca, hi Dreamer, hi everyone. Thanks for the warm welcome. Will be in and out, depending on what mood this damn laptop is in. I know he was seen as a divisive figure, but I've always had a soft spot for old Hugh (Ed reminded me so much of him). Just remember: our Labour party has survived a hundred years of the Daily Heil, the Zinoviev letter, Ramsay fucking MacDonald, the National Goverment, Derek Hatton, the Grantham Gargoyle and - let's be honest - Tony Blair. I've been a member since I was seventeen. I'm buggered if I'm letting that puffin-faced prick get the better of us.

If anyone's active in their union, try doing what I've done and ask for an emergency branch meeting. If you're not active, think about giving it a try - it's fun! The fightback starts Monday. Together we can sweep that puffin-faced prick into the gutter of history. They didn't beat us before. They're not going to now.

Well said,

Though I've got to admit that I'm pretty pissed with my union at the moment, and have been flirting with the idea of not signing up for direct debit when check-off ends. They're bleating now that the government will de-recognise them if membership falls below a certain level (which is, of course, why the Tory scum are ending check-off). But even so a part of me thinks - 'would serve you bloody right.' I know I'm just playing into Tory hands, but I'm just so unhappy with the union at present.

Also, when they're pleading with me to carry on funding them, they suddenly find the will to send me a deluge of e-mails, but any other time they are as silent as the grave.

Plus, of course, the number of scabs who cross the picket line every time there's been a strike in recent years. God forbid people should stand together and fight for justice. Whatever happened to never crossing a picket line?

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:45 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
abby #ThankYouEd ‏@twcuddleston · 58s58 seconds ago
Hi we're the #milifandom and for our audition we'll be singing "I want you back" by the Jackson 5 #ThankYouEd
The girl is a force of nature. Stuck two fingers up to Murdoch and Mensch, created a movement and is now leading a call to ask Ed to reconsider - I wouldn't bet against her succeeding either!! She punted the idea for #ThankYouEd earlier this evening and it has flown straight to the top of the trends.

Yes, there's still some of our young people (God, I sound as though I'm ancient, though must say, today I feel it) that give me some little hope for the future. Only a little hope mind, it's a dark day today.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:46 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote: The girl is a force of nature. Stuck two fingers up to Murdoch and Mensch, created a movement and is now leading a call to ask Ed to reconsider - I wouldn't bet against her succeeding either!! She punted the idea for #ThankYouEd earlier this evening and it has flown straight to the top of the trends.
I've been seriously thinking about one of those petitions (change or whatever) if we could get a good person to start it and we could get load of names - could we get him back? Or am I being silly?
I don't think you are. Maybe he just doesn't have the appetite for it any more but who knows; give it a day or so to let the dust settle and tempers cool, and he might be persuaded to throw his hat back in the ring - it worked for John Major, he came back stronger after he put himself up for re-election and Ed is three times the man Major was. And, as I said, I wouldn't put anything past that girl at the moment; I share a lot of Ohso's frustration but with people luke her and the Whippersnap crew it isn't all bleak.

Blimey, listen to us all. 12 hours ago we were all ready for a Dignitas group booking and now we're planning a comeback tour.

Tony2602 · Post by **Tony2602** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:46 pm

"Maybe he just doesn't have the appetite for it any more but who knows; give it a day or so to let the dust settle and tempers cool, and he might be persuaded to throw his hat back in the ring - it worked for John Major, he came back stronger after he put himself up for re-election and Ed is three times the man Major was. And, as I said, I wouldn't put anything past that girl at the moment; I share a lot of Ohso's frustration but with people luke her and the Whippersnap crew it isn't all bleak."

Damn straight!

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:47 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
PorFavor wrote:

I don't know if you saw my edit added to an earlier post (below). If so, I apologise for the repeat but I think it needed to be said. There's no hope if crowing and gloating are to be the tactics employed for shaping Labour's future.

[from me (PorFavor) to SpinningHugo]

I appreciate that you and I have different views on the future of the Labour Party but I would suggest that your, frankly brutal, approach to people who are feeling bruised is not the way to build a cohesive Party and avoid destructive fractures in the future. I was prepared to give more space to the LibDems than you seem to be prepared to grant many of us here.
I thoroughly agree. I repeatedly said this morning that picking over the bones was not what we should be doing, and while some people hold very firm beliefs on this that are as valid as anyone's, doing so today was not appropriate. Moreover, the idea that Labour needs to pander to swing voters frankly feels like those of us on this forum, who have championed the Miliband project, do not matter. Being told our voice is secondary to the ultimate goal of power at any cost is, on a day like today, being punched in the gut when we're already dealing with a blow to the face.

Anyway, when Progress types talk about a bigger tent they don't mean a bigger tent, they mean a tent that has been moved to the right, and expect those of us on the left to crowd in anyway.

Yes, yes, this a thousand times. Tx you.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:50 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote: The girl is a force of nature. Stuck two fingers up to Murdoch and Mensch, created a movement and is now leading a call to ask Ed to reconsider - I wouldn't bet against her succeeding either!! She punted the idea for #ThankYouEd earlier this evening and it has flown straight to the top of the trends.
I've been seriously thinking about one of those petitions (change or whatever) if we could get a good person to start it and we could get load of names - could we get him back? Or am I being silly?
I don't think you are. Maybe he just doesn't have the appetite for it any more but who knows; give it a day or so to let the dust settle and tempers cool, and he might be persuaded to throw his hat back in the ring - it worked for John Major, he came back stronger after he put himself up for re-election and Ed is three times the man Major was. And, as I said, I wouldn't put anything past that girl at the moment; I share a lot of Ohso's frustration but with people luke her and the Whippersnap crew it isn't all bleak.

Blimey, listen to us all. 12 hours ago we were all ready for a Dignitas group booking and now we're planning a comeback tour.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:51 pm

J K Rowling slapping down the Nats!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/05 ... 1431110063

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:51 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
PorFavor wrote:

I don't know if you saw my edit added to an earlier post (below). If so, I apologise for the repeat but I think it needed to be said. There's no hope if crowing and gloating are to be the tactics employed for shaping Labour's future.

[from me (PorFavor) to SpinningHugo]

I appreciate that you and I have different views on the future of the Labour Party but I would suggest that your, frankly brutal, approach to people who are feeling bruised is not the way to build a cohesive Party and avoid destructive fractures in the future. I was prepared to give more space to the LibDems than you seem to be prepared to grant many of us here.
I thoroughly agree. I repeatedly said this morning that picking over the bones was not what we should be doing, and while some people hold very firm beliefs on this that are as valid as anyone's, doing so today was not appropriate. Moreover, the idea that Labour needs to pander to swing voters frankly feels like those of us on this forum, who have championed the Miliband project, do not matter. Being told our voice is secondary to the ultimate goal of power at any cost is, on a day like today, being punched in the gut when we're already dealing with a blow to the face.

Anyway, when Progress types talk about a bigger tent they don't mean a bigger tent, they mean a tent that has been moved to the right, and expect those of us on the left to crowd in anyway.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:51 pm

letsskiptotheleft wrote:Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but allow me one, Murphy saying that homes in London would pay for Scottish nurses was a mistake, now if another said mansions would get taxed to pay for affordable homes in the south east that would have been more palatable. Scotland has more per head than any other region apart from NI as it is.

Agree, it was a foolish thing to say.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:55 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Many are failing to realise that a big chunk of those we once thought of as solid Labour voters are now extremely right wing in some of their views.

A lot of working class Labour hate the system where single mothers get a house, have most of their rent paid, and then frequently go on to have a couple more children by different, absent fathers. And yes I could personally give you quite a few names.
The old Labour voters have children of their own who marry or enter into a settled partnership. They do the right thing but will never be able to buy their own home, and now haven't a bats chance in hell of getting a council house, even though they were born in the town.
And now for them, it adds insult to injury to see more and more immigants moving here, many of whom get priority because of their needs.
I believe Obama's step mother was one such imigrant. Not sure if she still lives here...

Perhaps Ed could have beefed up the rhetoric on the more inflammable subjects, but while it might have pleased one lot it would have offended another.

I guarantee that'll be why Labour voters changed to Conservative or UKIP.

Sadly, true. And in the increasingly poisonous rhetoric that will spill forth over the next five years more will do so, unless we find a way of connecting with or engaging with them.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:56 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:J K Rowling slapping down the Nats!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/05 ... 1431110063

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 08 May, 2015 8:59 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote: I've been seriously thinking about one of those petitions (change or whatever) if we could get a good person to start it and we could get load of names - could we get him back? Or am I being silly?
I don't think you are. Maybe he just doesn't have the appetite for it any more but who knows; give it a day or so to let the dust settle and tempers cool, and he might be persuaded to throw his hat back in the ring - it worked for John Major, he came back stronger after he put himself up for re-election and Ed is three times the man Major was. And, as I said, I wouldn't put anything past that girl at the moment; I share a lot of Ohso's frustration but with people luke her and the Whippersnap crew it isn't all bleak.

Blimey, listen to us all. 12 hours ago we were all ready for a Dignitas group booking and now we're planning a comeback tour.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 08 May, 2015 9:00 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:J K Rowling slapping down the Nats!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/05 ... 1431110063

Dr Brian May, too.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 08 May, 2015 9:03 pm

Why Miliband was not a failure

So I ask you, as you decide to vote on a Labour leader. As you decide whether Labour shall be led by a Blairite or a Milibrite. Does the British Labour Party keep on fighting for what is truly right with a strong leader who believes utterly in the principles Miliband did? Or does it fade into the history books led by a compromising Blairite, tail between it’s legs

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 08 May, 2015 9:08 pm

Here's the short video message our brilliant - and clearly very very tired - candidate has just sent around to us all. Good man.

[youtube]4TEwzvnfdjA[/youtube]

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 08 May, 2015 9:11 pm

Night all. It has been a grim 24 hours (and 'grim' is one of my specialities), let us hope tomorrow we can begin to see more clearly.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 08 May, 2015 9:11 pm

daydreamer wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:J K Rowling slapping down the Nats!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/05 ... 1431110063
Dr Brian May, too.

One of the very good guys, Dr. May is