Saturday 9th, Sunday 10th May 2015

[Hobiejoe]

Sorry about this folks
Dave Jones
‏@WelshGasDoc Hearing a rumour from a well placed source that Shapps is going to Health.

Mr How To Get Stinking Rich ... should be a perfect fit for all the creaming off that's going to be done asap. Sick in every sense.

I was just going to say something similar, along the lines of "How To Get Stinking Rich Asset Stripping The NHS, Vols 1-999".

[AnatolyKasparov]

Thanet has a UKIP majority council

How depressing.

On a happier note, Manchester is now 96 out of 96 Labour

As you may have noticed I haven't posted here today, that's because I have been out and away from the internet. Talking to others about things has been therapeutic - and there's one thing almost all agree on, the "Scary Scots will rob you" thing was a BIG factor in this "surprise" result.

Crosby observed and studied Netanyahu's recent victory through fear and "against the polls" in Israel, and put it into operation here. Labour (and other non-Tory parties) were completely blindsided by this until it was too late.

The good news is that the Tories won't be able to pull this particular trick again. The bad is that they will try *something* similar in 2020, and we have to be able to combat it.

[utopiandreams]

Time for some munchies. Yesterday I picked up a pineapple for a quid. As soon as it came into view I saw a tasty treat and a houseplant. Georgie was especially taken by it. Unlike my previous cats, Castor and Pollux being born late May (the latter could raise eyebrows when called in from outdoors), she is confined to rooftops and a roof terrace. Her only vegetation other than tortoise food, largely dandelion, is a fifty odd year old aspidistra.

Mmm, pineapple, maybe some cheese too. Still eating dairy; besides I would never throw it away. Goodnight.

[SpinningHugo]

, the "Scary Scots will rob you" thing was a BIG factor in this "surprise" result.

1. And guess who I blame for that bullshit lie being credible?

With a leader perceived as being able to stand up to Sottish sectional interests, it would never have had any traction in the first place.


2. Creasy is, without any doubt, ruthlessly ambitious,


Good.

[StephenDolan]

Just anecdotal - a lot of people I know, who have the option, are seriously thinking of leaving the country now. And yes, they did vote so they can't be held responsible for the "mess we've (now) inherited". And these are well-qualified folk whom we no doubt need here. I wonder if that's true in the broader world (UK-wise).

I am / we are.

And yet it feels like it would be bailing out. Guilt is a terrible thing when you've a conscience. Unfortunately, most Tories don't. Which is why they are so brass necked.

[rebeccariots2]

Just had an email from our branch secretary which includes this:

Many thanks to everyone who helped with our campaign for all your hard work. While the result has been disappointing, the Conservative majority over Labour in Preseli Pembrokeshire increased by only 364 votes, which is not bad at all given the overall trend.

But it's also frustrating ... no?

We lost some of our usual votes (without wishing to sound at all complacent, or presuming entitlement) to an independent standing on a 'save our hospital / health service' ticket who popped up at the very last minute - just registering as a candidate before the deadline. Many of the voters that we talked to about this issue - and it is an issue locally but our candidate has been very constructive and is coming up with alternative proposals along with a group of clinicians which look like they could be accepted - simply didn't understand that health is a devolved matter and therefore a Westminster MP, and particularly an independent MP, is not going to be able to do anything about it. They were gutted when this was explained after they had voted ... one said 'so that was a completely wasted vote then?'. More than 3,000 people voted for this candidate. Now if I had a suspicious mind ...

[RogerOThornhill]

Just got back in...

Gove as Justice Secretary?

He was lucky in Education as it took a while for people to figure out what exactly he was doing - chaos is difficult to respond to.

But justice?

He's up against Sadiq Khan...a human rights solicitor. take a look at his legal career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadiq_Khan#Legal_career

And if you take Keir Starmer into account, that's a heavyweight team that'll run rings round Gove, He's good at the smart alec comments and the sneering but legal knowledge he ain't got.

If this is true, what on earth is Cameron thinking? To push something like getting rid of the HRA and producing a bill of rights you have to have a lawyer as the front man.

[rebeccariots2]

Just anecdotal - a lot of people I know, who have the option, are seriously thinking of leaving the country now. And yes, they did vote so they can't be held responsible for the "mess we've (now) inherited". And these are well-qualified folk whom we no doubt need here. I wonder if that's true in the broader world (UK-wise).

I am / we are.

And yet it feels like it would be bailing out. Guilt is a terrible thing when you've a conscience. Unfortunately, most Tories don't. Which is why they are so brass necked.

Make sure you don't go to Europe. It could be an all too short stay if you end up being compulsorily repatriated when our Ukip / Eurosceptic rump population vote to exit ...

[rebeccariots2]

Just got back in...

Gove as Justice Secretary?

He was lucky in Education as it took a while for people to figure out what exactly he was doing - chaos is difficult to respond to.

But justice?

He's up against Sadiq Khan...a human rights solicitor. take a look at his legal career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadiq_Khan#Legal_career

And if you take Keir Starmer into account, that's a heavyweight team that'll run rings round Gove, He's good at the smart alec comments and the sneering but legal knowledge he ain't got.

If this is true, what on earth is Cameron thinking? To push something like getting rid of the HRA and producing a bill of rights you have to have a lawyer as the front man.

This is Cameron. He doesn't give diddly squat what it takes to do it properly. He just wants someone who can blather and scheme and spout mistruths and over denials. That works for them. It has worked for them. The media is supine.

The legal profession and others who care about these issues are going to have to really really fight - and probably fight as dirty as the Conservative machine if they want to protect that which they should.

[RogerOThornhill]

Oh my.

Laura McInerney @miss_mcinerney · 1h 1 hour ago
Laura McInerney retweeted James Elder
Amazing. Gove now has control of public records. @xtophercook over to you... Laura McInerney added,

James Elder @jamesofputney
@miss_mcinerney Also public records (the National Archives)

Given the problems that both Chris Cook and Laura McInerney have had with FOI on education esp on free schools, this is not good news.

[RogerOThornhill]

Nicky Morgan is staying at Education - Give with a smiley face. Could have been worse - someone thought it might be Truss! Jeez...the only things she cares about is maths and textbooks. And maths textbooks.

I've seen Charlotte Leslie mentioned as Laws replacement as Schools Minister - wouldn't surprise me - it was her report of guess who...yes, Policy Exchange that first put forward the idea of pupil premium.

Still haven't seen any explanation of how she got a political donation in Bristol from Theo Agnew - based in Norfolk. But all PX chums together I guess...

[rebeccariots2]

Ukip in Wales.jpg (39.49 KiB) Viewed 8678 times

Patrick O'Flynn retweeted
Dan Jukes ‏@DanJukes17 2h2 hours ago East, England
Fantastic stuff by @UKIPWales. 14% of the vote share and PC beaten at the same time

Awful.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Ukip in Wales.jpg

Patrick O'Flynn retweeted
Dan Jukes ‏@DanJukes17 2h2 hours ago East, England
Fantastic stuff by @UKIPWales. 14% of the vote share and PC beaten at the same time

Awful.

So there are more English Nats than Welsh Nats in Wales.

Barking mad.

[Hobiejoe]

Just a quick thank you for all (bar one) for the camaraderie, support and, often gallows, humour.

It's made a difficult time much more bearable. Personally, my lowest point was when I had to back to work last night, knowing that some openly tory locals would gloat, but also knowing that others, people I count as friends would have voted tory as well, having done my best to persuade them otherwise within the constraints of an important branch of our unwritten constitution, pub etiquette. I used reasoned debate at appropriate times (generally earlier in the evening) and as much humour as I could.

All without any effect, alas. When I walked in, it went quiet, there was one comment from a guy I was expecting to hear from, and we tease each other about politics, but I still took the bait. Luckily I caught myself in time and turned it towards self-deprecation. For the rest of the evening I just avoided people as much as I could, on the verge of tears, and the locals recognised that - it was almost like I'd suffered a bereavement, except that they wouldn't or couldn't offer condolences. Probably sensible of them because I probably would have exploded at that point.

It's getting slowly better less awful as the initial shock wears off. The trouble is that the unfolding reality is going to be a long, hard kick in the nadgers for the country (my apologies for a gender-specific analogy. I suppose I could've run with childbirth, but while it, my wife tells me, can sting a bit it's generally held to be a good thing in the long run) and every time I recall, or read here about all the policies and plans they have, errr, planned, my heart sinks plummets.

Heh. must be getting slightly better, I'm playing with the newly discovered (by me) *strike* doodaa. Although, I'll sup sparingly of that typographical device lest it become as irritating as people using those #somethinginane hashtag thingies instead setting out their thoughts properly #words #grammar #sentences.

Anyhoo, thank you all #cheers

[howsillyofme1]

Just anecdotal - a lot of people I know, who have the option, are seriously thinking of leaving the country now. And yes, they did vote so they can't be held responsible for the "mess we've (now) inherited". And these are well-qualified folk whom we no doubt need here. I wonder if that's true in the broader world (UK-wise).

I am / we are.

And yet it feels like it would be bailing out. Guilt is a terrible thing when you've a conscience. Unfortunately, most Tories don't. Which is why they are so brass necked.

And why they all bugger off to Spain or the south of France or Australia or Oman or Belize and yet feel they can pontificate about how things are/should be in the UK. The Tories now want to give these characters a UK vote as long as they live.

Which had me wondering. How is it decided which constituency expats vote in?

Hi

Expats have 15 years of voting rights based on their last resident constituency....you have to register with the local consulate and then contact the relevant council in the UK

I have been abroad for last 2 elections but haven't voted as I do not pay tax in the UK and feel wrong voting. That is not to say I don't care and have donated small amounts of cash. Also my last constituency is solid Labour so it is not a critical vote

I am still passionate about British politics though and will be mighty miffed if there is an EU referendum - the implications for me would be potentially huge and I may have to consider Swiss citizenship, which I do not want to do, in order to maintain residence rights

I hope Cameron is looking forward to welcoming back all those non-productive expats of retirement age......

[seeingclearly]

I was genuinely surprised that we did not have any more civil unrest after the 2011 riots. I suspect that once this mob really get into their stride that may not be the case this time around; when people have nothing left to lose then prison is no deterrent.

I suspect the deaths here had a lot to do with that, few protesters have a stomach for any kind of demonstration that leads to loss of life. Also the reprisals were swift and showed little mercy, especially to young people.

It was an od feature of the riots though that the people who did cause deaths did not get sever sentences. I've pondered on this a lot, as I used to live very close to where the Asian young men were mown down, and know the place the vehicle was dumped. The deaths in London, one a visiting foreign student also did not seem to attract much attention at trial, though I'm seeing a London situation from a distance.

One way or another it seemed to inhibit demonstration, as in a strange way occupy also did. Everything else of course has been largely invisible to the population at large who could be forgiven for thinking things can't be that bad if no one is protesting. In this way also marches of 50 thousand odd people were disappeared. The one I recall best was in late 2011, a trades union march through London which was impossible to see because of the sheer amount of roads that had been closed off along its path. There were of course many more, but effectively invisible to the population at large. A similar one here was likewise disappeared. Reports of tiny numbers when there were substantial numbers has also served this purpose and just about allowed aunty to claim some kind of spurious impartiality.

[seeingclearly]

Just got back in...

Gove as Justice Secretary?

He was lucky in Education as it took a while for people to figure out what exactly he was doing - chaos is difficult to respond to.

But justice?

He's up against Sadiq Khan...a human rights solicitor. take a look at his legal career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadiq_Khan#Legal_career

And if you take Keir Starmer into account, that's a heavyweight team that'll run rings round Gove, He's good at the smart alec comments and the sneering but legal knowledge he ain't got.

If this is true, what on earth is Cameron thinking? To push something like getting rid of the HRA and producing a bill of rights you have to have a lawyer as the front man.

Much as the election result might make Cameron appear much more of a strategic genius than he did this time last week, his judgement is still appalling.

He's a strategic thug, there's a difference.

[seeingclearly]

Just had an email from our branch secretary which includes this:

Many thanks to everyone who helped with our campaign for all your hard work. While the result has been disappointing, the Conservative majority over Labour in Preseli Pembrokeshire increased by only 364 votes, which is not bad at all given the overall trend.

But it's also frustrating ... no?

We lost some of our usual votes (without wishing to sound at all complacent, or presuming entitlement) to an independent standing on a 'save our hospital / health service' ticket who popped up at the very last minute - just registering as a candidate before the deadline. Many of the voters that we talked to about this issue - and it is an issue locally but our candidate has been very constructive and is coming up with alternative proposals along with a group of clinicians which look like they could be accepted - simply didn't understand that health is a devolved matter and therefore a Westminster MP, and particularly an independent MP, is not going to be able to do anything about it. They were gutted when this was explained after they had voted ... one said 'so that was a completely wasted vote then?'. More than 3,000 people voted for this candidate. Now if I had a suspicious mind ...

That sounds horribly frustrating and not a little suspicious. But this is the current state of play. It maybe that all the good work done won't go to waste, as things get worse those millions of conversations maŷ be remembered, turned over and pondered a bit more deeply. I'm glad they happened and that people like you were having them, it beats all the shoutings of these time by a long way. Still it must be painful knowing just how small the margin was, but there's a lot to hope for right now too. Even among some of the worst affected, and even though orgs ike Samaritans have been asked to be on standby, there's a sense now that people do not want to lie down and die, they want to stand up and be counted, in whatever ways possible. The fakeness surrounding this election has got people hopping mad, maybe because there isn't even a pretence of decency left.

Thanks for everything you do, it's a continual lifeline to hear how you and others here have been active and out there. And a blessing too.

[seeingclearly]

Pat_ JFT96 ‏@Pat_167 · 1 min1 minute ago
Bedroom Tax to hit a million more people as Tories launch 100-day welfare blitz http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pu ... ar_twitter …

Unbelievably depressing.

And the list of policies / measures that they want to bring in as fast as they can set out at the end of the article is terrifying.

Oh, Gawd, this is what I was trying to talk about earlier, all the signs of a blitzkrieg on its way, badgers and deaf and blind people before they'd even downed their champagne.

The trouble with having odd sleeping pattern is that you find yourself posting to no one, a blessing for others but not that great if you could do with the hurly burly of many posters. So I'll be off to try and sleep, but I don't think I'll rest easy. It is truly terrifying, and regardless of the anti austerity.coalition and whatever they are supposed to be doing I would rather have had Ed in place, and a chance to let go of fear for a while.

I really don't want to offend, Tizme, but the graces helped let this in, and it's fact that when you are dealing with conscienceless people you do not give them weapons to use on others. This was a lesson Ed understood well, and if your ladies had done their stuff in an objective way, which as people who have the lives and futures of others in their hands ought to do, then they should have seen that everything was there to build a more equitable future, but instead we have this, and even Tony Blair weighing in to try and control the middle ground. There's no space for naivety now.

As one person said today, in five years time we'll be remembering THIS as a better time. It truly does feel like the end of history, many people have been saying that people they know neither remember the difference between pre 2010 and now, nor do they remember the events of the last five years. But they remember Gordon's gold, a stupid joke note, and they'll remember Ed and the hoard of rabid Scots who would control us all. Probably for long after the graces have become irrelevant. Wood already looks to be going that way. Anyway if we're all here in five years time still hoping and dreaming perhaps someone will prove me wrong. If so I'll happily accede, but for know I'm hanging onto scepticism as an antidote to the worst. In friendship

[LadyCentauria]

Oh my.

Laura McInerney @miss_mcinerney · 1h 1 hour ago
Laura McInerney retweeted James Elder
Amazing. Gove now has control of public records. @xtophercook over to you... Laura McInerney added,

James Elder @jamesofputney
@miss_mcinerney Also public records (the National Archives)

Given the problems that both Chris Cook and Laura McInerney have had with FOI on education esp on free schools, this is not good news.

Oh bloody hell, no! The news just gets worse...

[LadyCentauria]

Just anecdotal - a lot of people I know, who have the option, are seriously thinking of leaving the country now. And yes, they did vote so they can't be held responsible for the "mess we've (now) inherited". And these are well-qualified folk whom we no doubt need here. I wonder if that's true in the broader world (UK-wise).

I am / we are.

And yet it feels like it would be bailing out. Guilt is a terrible thing when you've a conscience. Unfortunately, most Tories don't. Which is why they are so brass necked.

And why they all bugger off to Spain or the south of France or Australia or Oman or Belize and yet feel they can pontificate about how things are/should be in the UK. The Tories now want to give these characters a UK vote as long as they live.

Which had me wondering. How is it decided which constituency expats vote in?

I'm pretty sure that it's the one you were registered in before you left the UK.

[LadyCentauria]

Just a quick thank you for all (bar one) for the camaraderie, support and, often gallows, humour.

It's made a difficult time much more bearable. Personally, my lowest point was when I had to back to work last night, knowing that some openly tory locals would gloat, but also knowing that others, people I count as friends would have voted tory as well, having done my best to persuade them otherwise within the constraints of an important branch of our unwritten constitution, pub etiquette. I used reasoned debate at appropriate times (generally earlier in the evening) and as much humour as I could.

All without any effect, alas. When I walked in, it went quiet, there was one comment from a guy I was expecting to hear from, and we tease each other about politics, but I still took the bait. Luckily I caught myself in time and turned it towards self-deprecation. For the rest of the evening I just avoided people as much as I could, on the verge of tears, and the locals recognised that - it was almost like I'd suffered a bereavement, except that they wouldn't or couldn't offer condolences. Probably sensible of them because I probably would have exploded at that point.

It's getting slowly better less awful as the initial shock wears off. The trouble is that the unfolding reality is going to be a long, hard kick in the nadgers for the country (my apologies for a gender-specific analogy. I suppose I could've run with childbirth, but while it, my wife tells me, can sting a bit it's generally held to be a good thing in the long run) and every time I recall, or read here about all the policies and plans they have, errr, planned, my heart sinks plummets.

Heh. must be getting slightly better, I'm playing with the newly discovered (by me) *strike* doodaa. Although, I'll sup sparingly of that typographical device lest it become as irritating as people using those #somethinginane hashtag thingies instead setting out their thoughts properly #words #grammar #sentences.

Anyhoo, thank you all #cheers

Glad you survived the evening back at work – and that you're feeling less awful.

Don't worry about the 'gender-specific' kick in the nadgers. It's incredibly painful for women, too, as I can attest to. There isn't a non-gendered phrase for when I read/see/hear something that makes my willy shrivel either

[utopiandreams]

Mmm, do I do an @someone or do I do a quote? Or do I crop one down but maybe miss the point? Why ever not? There's nothing wrong with repetition.

Just a quick thank you for all (bar one) for the camaraderie, support and, often gallows, humour.

It's made a difficult time much more bearable. Personally, my lowest point was when I had to back to work last night, knowing that some openly tory locals would gloat, but also knowing that others, people I count as friends would have voted tory as well, having done my best to persuade them otherwise within the constraints of an important branch of our unwritten constitution, pub etiquette. I used reasoned debate at appropriate times (generally earlier in the evening) and as much humour as I could.

All without any effect, alas. When I walked in, it went quiet, there was one comment from a guy I was expecting to hear from, and we tease each other about politics, but I still took the bait. Luckily I caught myself in time and turned it towards self-deprecation. For the rest of the evening I just avoided people as much as I could, on the verge of tears, and the locals recognised that - it was almost like I'd suffered a bereavement, except that they wouldn't or couldn't offer condolences. Probably sensible of them because I probably would have exploded at that point.

It's getting slowly better less awful as the initial shock wears off. The trouble is that the unfolding reality is going to be a long, hard kick in the nadgers for the country (my apologies for a gender-specific analogy. I suppose I could've run with childbirth, but while it, my wife tells me, can sting a bit it's generally held to be a good thing in the long run) and every time I recall, or read here about all the policies and plans they have, errr, planned, my heart sinks plummets.

Heh. must be getting slightly better, I'm playing with the newly discovered (by me) *strike* doodaa. Although, I'll sup sparingly of that typographical device lest it become as irritating as people using those #somethinginane hashtag thingies instead setting out their thoughts properly #words #grammar #sentences.

Anyhoo, thank you all #cheers

Ha, ha, ha, Hobiejoe. Striking stuff if you don't mind my saying. Bloody hashtags and emoticons too, I know exactly what you mean.

I fear that if I used them I'd more than likely have to dig myself out of a hole. If people cannot tell when I'm joking then so be it. :smileyface :embarrassed

Nevertheless I can sometimes get a bit tetchy, so pardon my French if politically incorrect. :smileyface :embarrassed

That doesn't make me a racist btw. Did I say I hate acronyms too? :smileyface :embarrassed

Neither am I an Islamaphobe. Please take no offence should I paint the wrong picture. :smileyface :embarrassed

I fear I don't know when to stop, much like our Tory friends ;politeface who always like to have the last word. :smileyface :embarrassed

Now I know why they have friends in Uttoxeter, or is that Rocester? I could change to :jcb. :smileyface :embarrassed

Or perhaps, as now, I should make an orderly exit. Still the weekend chaps. Enjoy.

Dear, oh dear. Was that somewhat sexist? :jcb

Edit: tidy up - and again failed to do so first time around. ;jcb - again and again and again! :shutdown

[yahyah]

News from the #ProgressiveAlliance and Anti-Austerity Bloc of the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Green Party and allies in the UK Parliament. Events, meetings, protests
More on the London Occupy
https://twitter.com/AntiAusterityUK?lang=en-gb

I find that a bit ironic or is it me being over sensitive?

I'm just staggered.

The oh so lefty Axis, under Sturgeon, told people to vote in a way that made sure the Tories got into power and now they are going to start protesting.
Un flippin' believable.
Do they not have brains ?

I despair, I really do.

[letsskiptotheleft]

Sturgeon continuing her "Westminster must listen to us" schtik.

Doesn't she realise she's more irrelevant now than she was on Wednesday.

The tune she's playing won't be long before it's worn out.

[yahyah]

Ukip in Wales.jpg

Patrick O'Flynn retweeted
Dan Jukes ‏@DanJukes17 2h2 hours ago East, England
Fantastic stuff by @UKIPWales. 14% of the vote share and PC beaten at the same time

Awful.

So there are more English Nats than Welsh Nats in Wales.

Barking mad.

I hate UKIP, but can you blame them ?
Nationalism just breeds more nationalism.

UKIP pick a different bunch to blame.
Plaid here blame older English immigrants for their woes, and our Plaid councillor can out UKIP on moaning about eastern europeans working for Dunbia locally. (I voted for him...found out what he was really like after he was elected)

[fedup59]

Morning all

Do you want justice? No thanks
Do you want fairness? No thanks
Do you want human rights? Na
Do you want a health service free to all? No
Do you want inequality to be at the heart of your society? Yes please
Are you more frightened of Scots/ Europeans/ English than rapacious capitalists? Yip

Don’t really see any come back for me from that.

There will be (already is) a narrative about Labour failing to come up with policies that could win the election but the Tory’s election promises were the above and more in like vein. Are these what won it? If so then my despair knows no bounds, if not and it was misrepresentation, misinformation, media manipulation that won the day it still leaves responsibility for the choices with the electorate. In these circumstances Labour policy changes to meet the interests of the electorate won’t answer. Those who voted for the Tory wet dream will complain if they suffer as though it had nothing to do with them. We will live in a meaner, crueller and compassionless society. The answers we got / gave aren’t rational and never look likely to be. But the dance will continue with one partner owning entry, the music, the steps and the venue while potential partners have to argue why they are entitled to participate. I have no idea what you do to change the tune but I really don’t think the answer lies in acceptance of the terms and conditions on offer. Seems to me something much deeper and much more challenging is needed.

I know this isn’t offering anything in the way of practical next steps but it seems to me that there is a crying need for dealing with the here and now, while at the same time challenging the reading that says this was all down to Labour’s policy/vision failures. Democracy assumes an informed electorate making rational choices. How the fuck you get there I have no idea but I think it is essential to try.

I’m sad that Ed resigned but think it continues to show an honest man. He said: this is me; this is what I believe; this is what the party I lead will try to achieve on your behalf. As far as I’m concerned acceptance of the answer has dignity and honesty.

[yahyah]

Also, maybe I'm just in a cycle of negativity about this but have been thinking about the Opposition in this Parliament.

Pre-2010 a lot of English people may have listened to opposition to Tory policies/bills coming from the Lib Dems. Now they are down to 8 their voice will be less.

The voters who voted Tory for fear of the rampant SNP will be less likely to listen to anti-Tory views from the big SNP bloc at Westminster.

So Labour will have an even harder fight in Opposition to turn public opinion away from the right.

Murdoch must be delirious, all his dreams come true.

[yahyah]

Sturgeon continuing her "Westminster must listen to us" schtik.

Doesn't she realise she's more irrelevant now than she was on Wednesday.

The tune she's playing won't be long before it's worn out.

All that crap she came out with about 'holding Labour's feet to the fire' all to help people fear a Labour victory.

She's helped push innocent people in to the Tory fire. Which she knew, but doesn't care about because Tory atrocities help the SNP surge on.

It is so sick. I think I will considering never reading/hearing about what goes on in this Parliament.
Not sure whether what the Tories do, or their enablers, the anti-austerity Axis, will be more depressing.

[tinyclanger2]

Ok, the wing of the party I belong to has had someone express the point more clearly than me on the policy mix

"policies, even if individually popular, that, taken together, send us too far left."

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... are_btn_tw

When you cast your vote for leader in September think this.

NOT what who would I most like to see as leader.

NOT (even) "who would SpinningHugo most like to see as leader: I vote Labour come what may.

Think

"Which person is most likely to persuade someone who voted Tory last time to vote Labour?"

When my vote is cast it will be for the candidate who can reach out to the midlands, south east of England, I can't go through what happened on Thursday a third time against an average bunch of politicians, namely the Tory party. Labour is losing votes UKIP, losing votes that normally would be theirs, a fair proportion would never vote Tory but see no shame in voting for UKIP. That has too be confronted in areas like South Wales, the industrial midlands and the north.

I agree with that but I think the idea we can fix this by changing the leader is wrong. That will help with say a Jarvis (but not a CU) but the more fundamental things are:

Fix the SNP issue somehow. Even Blair would have lost with that millstone round his neck in the South and Midlands.

Organise and reconnect with UKIP communities in all of Labours target seats and its core areas. This is best done through local councillors, clinics, events. Don't just do nothing and assume they will turn up on polling day. Ernst is a model to emulate here. This community is about to be hammered by benefits cuts (tax credits), they will need help and advice. That way maybe on polling day they will see the value of Labour and actually turn up.

Sure include a middle class pitch as well, but in reality until they experience real pain they will carry on voting Tory.

Apologies for long dull sanctimonious mail to follow:

Totally agree with TE. This is what I mean by "changing" politics. It's not change as such it's just more of what works (a la Ernst).

I have been guilty here of feeling immense anger towards left-leaning "splitters" and nationalists, but now realise that it is this exact same anger that is driving them to split. The feeling of disempowerment (I'm sure Ohso agrees). If we react on the basis of it rather than look at it and learn from it we cannot and will not win. We need to engage with all of the groups who know there is something wrong with the Tory, "me, me, me" and coordinate how to address the issues. And others who are trying to solve the same problems but are doing it in an unacceptable way (Labour switchers to UKIP for example). The real goal is not to get Labour in power per se but to solve the problems. Particularly given Labour is currently in danger of shifting back to the right. This is why we need TE's grand coalition of the left. If we cannot agree on everything we can agree that:

a) there are immediate problems to address and people's lives to save
b) we have to hold the Tories to account now and get them out next time
c) there is a longer term political problem to solve and we have to start engaging all groups in that now

I am pretty sure we will lose Scotland - they will gain independence. It physically hurts to think that, but I'm getting it out of the way to avoid wasting time later on. If I'm wrong, great, but I want to be prepared emotionally.

But by hating them in advance for this (almost) inevitability, we are doing the Tories' vile divisive work for them. We have to work with the SNP to solve our common problems - and isolating them will guarantee independence anyway.The issue here is basically: do we (collectively on the left) want to be "right" or do we want to win?

We also need to work out how to shift the "middle class" mindset - not appeal to it but change it. This will be a longer term thing but should start now anyway. Just telling people they are wrong (my frequent failing) isn't going to work. We need a "story" that will work better than selfishness. Think landgirls.

As for the Labour leader, Cooper and Umuna cannot work. If Jarvis can thwart the press attacks to some degree then quite possibly it should be him. Anything else is almost moot, because the press will still be our biggest enemy in 5 years time.

We have much to do. Starting with forming alliances and finding out what people think it is that UKIP offers that Labour does not.

[yahyah]

Just completing a YouGov election survey.

One of the questions 'do you now regret who you voted for'

Look forward to seeing the results for that when published.

[rebeccariots2]

Morning all. Just can't stay asleep for long enough ... despite feeling as though I need to sleep for a good 24 hours and then some. Feels like depressive stuff. But I know it's a reasonable reaction to something so awful ... and will in time move on.

Thank you seeing clearly for your posts late last night.

And thank you hobiejoe for yours. I could feel the atmosphere in that pub.

Please someone tell me - do Tory voters not have friends or family who are sick, disabled, on really low pay, working in the public sector, unemployed, widowed, who care about animals and the environment or fall into any of the other categories who have already been attacked by the previous coalition and are now about to get an even more vicious assault?

[TheGrimSqueaker]

We lost not because people were stupid, or blind, or greedy but because they were ignorant. They did not, they do not, understand what the Tories are about to do to us all, because they have been conditioned to think that the Tories are the natural party of stability.

We will not overcome that by striking radically left (god knows the TUSC and their ilk have proved that) nor by tacking back to the right (sorry Hugo, you are just wrong); we will only overcome it through a process of engagement and education, working with the electorate to build a set of ideals that they can embrace. UKIP did just that, only their approach is reactionary and divisive; we can be progressive, inclusive and imaginative, helping the electorate to reach for their wants but ensure everybody has their needs!

No apologies for the size of this image.

[rebeccariots2]

Barry Sheerman ‏@BarrySheerman 26m26 minutes ago
The team that subverted our Party democracy in 2010 will try to do it again they are desperately organising now!

Can someone tell me what he means?

[tinyclanger2]

We lost not because people were stupid, or blind, or greedy but because they were ignorant. They did not, they do not, understand what the Tories are about to do to us all, because they have been conditioned to think that the Tories are the natural party of stability.

We will not overcome that by striking radically left (god knows the TUSC and their ilk have proved that) nor by tacking back to the right (sorry Hugo, you are just wrong); we will only overcome it through a process of engagement and education, working with the electorate to build a set of ideals that they can embrace. UKIP did just that, only their approach is reactionary and divisive; we can be progressive, inclusive and imaginative, helping the electorate to reach for their wants but ensure everybody has their needs!

No apologies for the size of this image.

100% agreement from me. The election campaign is important but we need to be making even more of a difference in actual lives for the next 5 years. The "left" needs to become more than a choice of one political party over another. It needs to be a real movement for change even in opposition. As I said yesterday, our fantastic access to rural areas stems from the actions of the people. We do not have to be in power to make change, so let's focus - collectively - on that. We need a map of the movement and a plan of who will do what and where we apply pressure collectively. And we need to think seriously about what we do about the press. Boycotting works to a degree, but needs to be complemented by politics. There is much celebrity support for this - surely we/they can put together a team to push this - with public backing - to get this done.

PS - when I say "we" I mean the whole network of overlapping (if not like) -minded people.

[tinyclanger2]

apologies for second sanctimonious mail. am feeling a bit ardent. am working on self and will resume normal service shortly.

[tinyclanger2]

"progressive, inclusive and imaginative"

This is exactly what we need to be.

[DonutHingeParty]

I've signed up to Labour as a paid member. I can't look at my kids in five years time and say that I didn't do every thing I could to stop a third term. So, the autopsy.

The rebuttal unit. What was needed was a calm forensic explanation of what actually happened in the crisis; where the money was spent and mea culpas where mistakes had been made (millennium dome etc. .) Ed should also too loyal to the past and should have made it clear that policies change, but basic principles remain.
Scotland. Nothing was ever so bad. Ed was so forced to defend Scottish candidates that he and Murphy appeared slippery and deceiving. Labour should have stood on a shared ticket with the SNP and made it clear that the main difference would be about whether voters were happy with the union or not. People could see through the false outrage.
Blairism is gone; the Tories have stolen it. What Labour had was a fight in crowded territory with a leader who was a nice guy, but couldn't energise or motivate. He was a technocrat when people wanted anger.
When the exit poll came in I realised that we have to consider the fact that we're the majority. Did everyone who voted Tory do it enthusiastically with a glad heart? Of course not. Those 4million conversations needed to happen before policy decisions and not explaining something to the people. It was all just a bit incoherent and messy. The 2020 campaign has already started, but it needs to respond to what people actually want. Too much was hung on the34% strategy. At the end of the day Labour made an offering and it was rejected. What we don't want to do is offer Tory but with a free ring binder just to get elected; we need to take on those arguments with passion and reason. And if Burnham does stand, I want a million leaflets printed explaining why he isn't to blame for "mid Staffs" in simple language.

[tinyclanger2]

A bunch of us have joined or rejoined Labour (as last time). Last time I think new members' views were only really first sought at the vote for the leadership. Can we create a situation now whereby the party understands IT"S TIME TO LOOK OUTWARDS and get our views now when they are deciding on candidates, and not later. The Labour party really needs to start its consultations with US not each other. Or they will just waste a load more time.

(again, by "us" I mean the Labour membership - and wider public).

[rebeccariots2]

Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound 1m1 minute ago
Labour leadership latest. Chuka Umunna on Marr. Liz Kendall on Sunday Politics. Tristram Hunt on Pienaar's Politics

I'm absolutely f****ing fed up with them and this already. And I'm barely reading anything online or print papers, and am not watching TV or listening to the radio.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Well said DHP!!

Another thought. Obviously another part of the problem was the Fourth Estate, the MSM, those f***ing hacks, whatever you want to call them; and one of the biggest parts of that problem was the BBC and Nick "Toryby" Robinson's pernicious influence on their news coverage. So Twitter is now full of people saying boycott the BBC, don't pay your licence, the BBC must go ........

When the only alternative is Rupert bloody Murdoch that can't happen. The BBC is ours, we pay for it, so let us take it back; I've no idea at present how we do that, but do it we must or the Dirty Digger wins everything and that just ain't gonna happen!!

[frightful_oik]

Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound 1m1 minute ago
Labour leadership latest. Chuka Umunna on Marr. Liz Kendall on Sunday Politics. Tristram Hunt on Pienaar's Politics

I'm absolutely f****ing fed up with them and this already. And I'm barely reading anything online or print papers, and am not watching TV or listening to the radio.

None of the above for me.
Morning all.
I'm sticking to R3 and R4E at present.

[tinyclanger2]

Well said DHP!!

Another thought. Obviously another part of the problem was the Fourth Estate, the MSM, those f***ing hacks, whatever you want to call them; and one of the biggest parts of that problem was the BBC and Nick "Toryby" Robinson's pernicious influence on their news coverage. So Twitter is now full of people saying boycott the BBC, don't pay your licence, the BBC must go ........

When the only alternative is Rupert bloody Murdoch that can't happen. The BBC is ours, we pay for it, so let us take it back; I've no idea at present how we do that, but do it we must or the Dirty Digger wins everything and that just ain't gonna happen!!

TGS - totally agree. Again, I have been thinking along the boycott lines, but again, as with isolating the SNP this is just completing the job for the Tories. We have to take back the BBC and we have to find a different way to implement Leveson. We have to use this hell to galvinise for real, concerted, organised action to take the Labour party and our country back. Like I say, a polite revolution with queues and occasional loud tutting, but a revolution which unites the decent - if often misguided - majority into an effective movement, and simply gets the job done.

[ephemerid]

The Great British Electorate seems to have a dual personality.

They punished the Libbing Dead.....for what? Tuition fees? Collaboration on NHS or DWP changes? What?
If they didn't like those things, they've just voted in a government that will do more of them.

Or maybe they're just all effing Tories. Maybe they are punishing Clegg because he (allegedly) held the Tories back and they actually want to see people suffering and don't understand how their own lives will be affected because they think they are immune.

One of the most important elections in some time, and only 66% turn out to vote? I find this very hard to believe. Why were there queues and why were people saying the turnout was in the 80% area? Were they all wrong.

As it is, we've now got a small majority government that 75% of the UK who bothered to vote didn't vote for. Madness.

[rebeccariots2]

Meanwhile, the Green party’s only MP is proposing that progressive parties work together in future to beat Conservative candidates rather than splitting the votes in key seats. Caroline Lucas, who was re-elected for Brighton Pavilion, said she was backing the move after witnessing progressive politicians such as the Lib Dem MP Norman Baker, in neighbouring Lewes, being voted out. Baker lost by just over 1,000 votes to Tory candidate Maria Caulfield. The Green candidate, who stood little chance of victory, picked up 2,784 votes.

Lucas said: “The system is wrong and we should have electoral reform, but that could be some time coming. So we need other ways to work together in a progressive alliance. Where it is appropriate, only one progressive candidate could stand in a seat – a sort of electoral pact. Cooperation during the EU referendum campaign could be the start of it.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-strategy

Hallelujah. A bit of common sense emerging? Just hope it lasts through to the next election and doesn't vanish in ridiculous headline lines of attack as per the norm. I've been thinking about the options for such co-operation around here after looking at our figures. We can't do that again.

[Spacedone]

Hello everyone,

I haven't been here for a few days because frankly I've been too angry to write anything constructive that wouldn't upset a few people and that's just not who I am so best that I keep my opinions to myself for a time.

I'm also too depressed to even want to think about politics right now. Much of the last five years have been one long period of stress; watching the service I worked for and loved, and all the good we had done, systematically cut to death; my friends being mentally broken by the pressure put on them; my own health (mental and otherwise) going backwards, money worries and redundancies (or the horrible limbo you live in as you are officially put on threat of redundancy each year and left unable to live normally for the next 9 months before they tell you who is for the chop).

The prospect of another 5 years of that (and worse) is just too much for me right now and so I'm taking a leaf out of the book of the sheeple who daydream their way through life without seeing the shit they live in or how easily manipulated they are (I did say I was angry) and taking a step back from even thinking about politics for a time. Right now thinking about this stuff, important though it is, just makes me feel depressed and having lived through depression some years ago there is no way I'm going to feed that feeling if I can help it.

I love this place and everyone here and I will be back at some point. I'm writing this because I didn't want anyone to worry about my 'disappearance'.

Take care, I'll see you later.

[tinyclanger2]

Meanwhile, the Green party’s only MP is proposing that progressive parties work together in future to beat Conservative candidates rather than splitting the votes in key seats. Caroline Lucas, who was re-elected for Brighton Pavilion, said she was backing the move after witnessing progressive politicians such as the Lib Dem MP Norman Baker, in neighbouring Lewes, being voted out. Baker lost by just over 1,000 votes to Tory candidate Maria Caulfield. The Green candidate, who stood little chance of victory, picked up 2,784 votes.

Lucas said: “The system is wrong and we should have electoral reform, but that could be some time coming. So we need other ways to work together in a progressive alliance. Where it is appropriate, only one progressive candidate could stand in a seat – a sort of electoral pact. Cooperation during the EU referendum campaign could be the start of it.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-strategy

Hallelujah. A bit of common sense emerging? Just hope it lasts through to the next election and doesn't vanish in ridiculous headline lines of attack as per the norm. I've been thinking about the options for such co-operation around here after looking at our figures. We can't do that again.

Excellent. We need much more of this.

[rebeccariots2]

Hello everyone,

I haven't been here for a few days because frankly I've been too angry to write anything constructive that wouldn't upset a few people and that's just not who I am so best that I keep my opinions to myself for a time.

I'm also too depressed to even want to think about politics right now. Much of the last five years have been one long period of stress; watching the service I worked for and loved, and all the good we had done, systematically cut to death; my friends being mentally broken by the pressure put on them; my own health (mental and otherwise) going backwards, money worries and redundancies (or the horrible limbo you live in as you are officially put on threat of redundancy each year and left unable to live normally for the next 9 months before they tell you who is for the chop).

The prospect of another 5 years of that (and worse) is just too much for me right now and so I'm taking a leaf out of the book of the sheeple who daydream their way through life without seeing the shit they live in or how easily manipulated they are (I did say I was angry) and taking a step back from even thinking about politics for a time. Right now thinking about this stuff, important though it is, just makes me feel depressed and having lived through depression some years ago there is no way I'm going to feed that feeling if I can help it.

I love this place and everyone here and I will be back at some point. I'm writing this because I didn't want anyone to worry about my 'disappearance'.

Take care, I'll see you later.

You take care spacedone. Do what you need to do to keep yourself OK. If you can bear to pop back in every now and again just to tell us how you are - that would be lovely. All the best.

[AngryAsWell]

I’m afraid there is no money.’ The letter I will regret for ever

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... are_btn_tw

Can't help but wonder why this was not publish before the election...

[utopiandreams]

Cameron is apparently good at U-turns according to David Davis on the Andrew Marr Show, giving a few early examples. Yes David, but surely he should have learned to get things correct first time.Seemingly not. Worse still is that when he does push on he is generally wrong.