Saturday 9th, Sunday 10th May 2015

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 09 May, 2015 11:41 am

PorFavor wrote:Whilst I am very happy that people are joining up to the Labour Party, I would hate it to be construed by some as an indication that people are joining up now " because they didn't like Ed Miliband but now he's no longer leader, membership has increased". (That's just an observation - not a plea not to join!)

Edited

Punctuation and stuff

Yeah, sorry about that. I know exactly what you mean. I did mean to show my support for Ed but things kept coming up (or breaking down, to be more precise!) and my husband is an affiliated member so we were donating that way already so I never quite got round to it. I was just inspired to join today because otherwise I can't really complain about Labour's choice of new leader if it turns out to be really rotten. And getting involved more with Labour may hopefully distract me from the hideousness of David Cameron strutting around wrecking stuff, which is inevitable to begin with before "events" hopefully intervene and derail him. I'm also a bit buoyed up by the small bit of progress Labour have made locally. Labour is a genuine force for good in my local community. If people had local Labour councillors as good as mine I think more people would be inspired to support Labour nationally. I get angry when people sneer at Labour because we still have our library and community pool because of them, that's a genuine difference to the quality of life of local people right there and it wasn't achieved by spending money, it was achieved by thinking outside the box and making the money available work in a more effective way.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 May, 2015 11:45 am

I'm back.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 May, 2015 11:48 am

@Willow904

Thanks for the response. Please don't let my maudlin wailing put you off!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 May, 2015 11:50 am

citizenJA wrote:I'm back.

That was quick. (I'm a Linux-er, too.)

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Sat 09 May, 2015 11:54 am

'morning everyone, what do you all think of caroline flint as leader ?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 May, 2015 11:56 am

JustMom wrote:'morning everyone, what do you all think of caroline flint as leader ?

Hello!

Are we pre-watershed, still?

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Sat 09 May, 2015 11:58 am

Good morning all,

And happy birthday to howsillyofme.

Well here I am 'the other side' and there is no bright new dawn. Thursday morning I was up at 6.30 a.m All day I was organising, coordinating, answering questions/phone calls/text messages, campaigning blah blah blah. We arrived at the count shortly before 10.00 pm for the verification process. Naturally our badges weren't sorted out so we along with all the other parties had to wait in the foyer where a large screen had been put up. And so we saw the exit polls. Immediate reaction - wtf? No! That can't be right. Barely time to take it in when a chap from the beeb was asking us Greens what our reaction was. Of course everyone looked to me to reply so I told him that naturally we'd be delighted if we got a second MP but at that point we were sceptical about the exit polls. I was right to be sceptical in terms of a second Green MP but sadly wrong regarding the overall result.

I'd arranged for a friend to text me results throughout the night while I was at the count. As the night wore on, it became harder and harder to keep going, knowing what was happening nationally. A little after 4.00 a.m we knew we were very close to a declaration so I slipped outside for a cigarette [yes, yes, I know filthy habit]. While I was out their, Dorothy arrived and I had what I believe to be the most honest conversation I've ever had with her. No political spin, no agenda. She was ashen. Absolutely distraught. "Tiz, [well actually she used my real name] what have we done? I don't mean locally, I mean nationally. People will come to bitterly regret this". We spoke for a short while and then went into the hall. Credit where it is due, she stood with the other candidates for the declaration and held herself together despite being absolutely in pieces inside. As we all are. Our declaration was around 4.30 a.m Harrington won by a huge margin. Matt [Labour] came second.

Got back home a bit after 5.00 a.m. Caught a few headlines. Read a little here. Dozed for a couple of hours and then back again for the Local Election count. The lib dems have lost overall control though they have the casting vote with Dorothy as mayor. Tories took four seats from them. Labour took one seat from them and one from us which I expected. There were a lot of positives and I shall be drilling into the figures more later on.

Got home around 2 p.m Eldest son was angry at the national outcome and needed to talk. Eventually I managed to get some sleep around 3.30 p.m Set my alarm for 7 p.m though as I didn't want to sleep too long and then be up all night again. Last night, I read through some more of the comments on here. Didn't finish them all though [maybe go back to that shortly]. I also allowed myself to grieve. Actually, I don't think I had much choice. Today I need to get back on the job but last night I couldn't. There were positives for Greens both nationally and locally but it was hard to focus on them last night.

I replied to one particular comment I read last night but other than that didn't comment because I just wanted to read and anyway, in many ways I needed to have the space to re group!

More of my waffle later no doubt.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 May, 2015 11:58 am

PorFavor wrote:
citizenJA wrote:I'm back.
That was quick. (I'm a Linux-er, too.)

It's so good to read your voice!
I went over some of yesterday's posts.

Welcome, Tony2602, thank you for your post.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:00 pm

JustMom wrote:'morning everyone, what do you all think of caroline flint as leader ?

I like her and think she did really well when on TV putting policy across. Also like the way she backed Ed. When you see some now coming out to speak against Ed, I do wonder "where were you during the campaign?"

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:00 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:David Miliband won't be standing, he isn't an MP.

Dan Jarvis would have a lot of positives, Burnham maybe.

Cooper as shadow chancellor (a post she should have held last time).

There is no point selecting another bland politician as leader - which rules out the rest of them.

Edited to add, Stella Creasy would be an option, not sure she will stand.

As to Left wing voters put off by Jarvis military career, sod them.

Jarvis does seem to tick a few boxes that could help, such as a career outside politics and a complete break from Blair/Brown influences. My brother-in-law was a fireman in the RAF and he's a bloody good bloke with rock solid Labour values, so a military man certainly doesn't put me off but I can't speak for anyone else. I just like the idea that image-wise he would be a real departure which could help him make his mark pretty quickly, because we need that. We haven't got time to allow a new leader to grow, unfortunately, this new government is going to be vicious but rocky. The quicker Labour are on the attack the better.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:01 pm

Thanks for your post, Tizme1.
Thank you.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:01 pm

@Tizme1

No - it doesn't seem to get any better, does it?

The result has been crushingly bad news for anyone with a social conscience or a care for the environment.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:02 pm

The single thing Tories do well is vote Tory with every Tory vote they possess.
That is all.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:08 pm

Could someone please link Ohso's post a few have mentioned? I've tried the link through the member list but I receive error messages.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:10 pm

@JustMom

I gave a rather flippant response to your earlier post. I should have asked what qualities you think Caroline Flint has that you feel would make her leadership material (assuming you do think that she has such qualities).

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:10 pm

Willow904 wrote:
I know next to nothing of Dan Jarvis but my instinct is that if Labour are looking for 'something completely different' he would probably fit the bill. He would be very hard for the MSM to attack, being one of 'our boys', which would be extremely useful for Labour as the unremitting media onslaught on Ed was a big factor in his failure to win.

Exactly this.

How often we hear that politicians are nothing like us. Nobody could say that about Jarvis.

He has an interesting back story & has proven leadership skills - leading a troop of men in a war situation is something I suggest most of us will never have done in our lifetime.

Watch him when he speaks in Parliament, particularly at PMQ's - he speaks & all the caterwauling & insults stop. He commands silence in the House. He has gravitas.

I don't want a clown like Dave as my PM & if I can't have Ed, I'll have a man that speaks with authority & commands respect from all who hear him.

I'm still in shock, close to tears at times but yesterday evening also taught me that politics has to take a back seat when real life intrudes. My youngest son was on holiday in Spain with his girlfriend when his Dad, my ex, revealed that the lung cancer he developed 6 months after my own was discovered, had spread to his brain & he has a life expectancy iro 3 months. This is what I had to share with my boy at 1am when he got home, full of the joy of his holiday & I had to bring him crashing down to earth.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:13 pm

pk1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
I know next to nothing of Dan Jarvis but my instinct is that if Labour are looking for 'something completely different' he would probably fit the bill. He would be very hard for the MSM to attack, being one of 'our boys', which would be extremely useful for Labour as the unremitting media onslaught on Ed was a big factor in his failure to win.
Exactly this.

How often we hear that politicians are nothing like us. Nobody could say that about Jarvis.

He has an interesting back story & has proven leadership skills - leading a troop of men in a war situation is something I suggest most of us will never have done in our lifetime.

Watch him when he speaks in Parliament, particularly at PMQ's - he speaks & all the caterwauling & insults stop. He commands silence in the House. He has gravitas.

I don't want a clown like Dave as my PM & if I can't have Ed, I'll have a man that speaks with authority & commands respect from all who hear him.

I'm still in shock, close to tears at times but yesterday evening also taught me that politics has to take a back seat when real life intrudes. My youngest son was on holiday in Spain with his girlfriend when his Dad, my ex, revealed that the lung cancer he developed 6 months after my own was discovered, had spread to his brain & he has a life expectancy iro 3 months. This is what I had to share with my boy at 1am when he got home, full of the joy of his holiday & I had to bring him crashing down to earth.

I'm so sorry.
I'm very sorry.
I don't know what else to say.

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:17 pm

PorFavor wrote:@JustMom

I gave a rather flippant response to your earlier post. I should have asked what qualities you think Caroline Flint has that you feel would make her leadership material (assuming you do think that she has such qualities).

I like the way she will really get stuck in and as has been said,she's loyal. I can imagine her being a good match for cameron.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:17 pm

pk1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
I know next to nothing of Dan Jarvis but my instinct is that if Labour are looking for 'something completely different' he would probably fit the bill. He would be very hard for the MSM to attack, being one of 'our boys', which would be extremely useful for Labour as the unremitting media onslaught on Ed was a big factor in his failure to win.
Exactly this.

How often we hear that politicians are nothing like us. Nobody could say that about Jarvis.

He has an interesting back story & has proven leadership skills - leading a troop of men in a war situation is something I suggest most of us will never have done in our lifetime.

Watch him when he speaks in Parliament, particularly at PMQ's - he speaks & all the caterwauling & insults stop. He commands silence in the House. He has gravitas.

I don't want a clown like Dave as my PM & if I can't have Ed, I'll have a man that speaks with authority & commands respect from all who hear him.

I'm still in shock, close to tears at times but yesterday evening also taught me that politics has to take a back seat when real life intrudes. My youngest son was on holiday in Spain with his girlfriend when his Dad, my ex, revealed that the lung cancer he developed 6 months after my own was discovered, had spread to his brain & he has a life expectancy iro 3 months. This is what I had to share with my boy at 1am when he got home, full of the joy of his holiday & I had to bring him crashing down to earth.

Sorry to hear that awful news PK, thoughts are with you.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:18 pm

Current Tories are unworthy adversaries.
It's crap losing to such a worthless crew.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:19 pm

JustMom wrote:'morning everyone, what do you all think of caroline flint as leader ?

I see her name & the very first thought is the phrase 'and the truth is....' because that's how she approaches questions every time she is challenged.

Drives me potty !

Not one for me.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:20 pm

JustMom wrote:'morning everyone, what do you all think of caroline flint as leader ?

No thanks.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:20 pm

JustMom wrote:
PorFavor wrote:@JustMom

I gave a rather flippant response to your earlier post. I should have asked what qualities you think Caroline Flint has that you feel would make her leadership material (assuming you do think that she has such qualities).

I like the way she will really get stuck in and as has been said,she's loyal. I can imagine her being a good match for cameron.

and she has experience in parliament. What ever is said about new faces, we do really need some continuity and knowledge in moving forward. She holds her own well even with Andrew Neil

Swarthlander · Post by **Swarthlander** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:24 pm

From last March...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general ... eader.html

Steely-eyed messenger of death

And another positive - the Daily Heil don't like him.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:25 pm

PorFavor wrote:@Willow904

Thanks for the response. Please don't let my maudlin wailing put you off!

That's ok. I was feeling a bit guilty for not joining sooner way before you said anything. I still feel I didn't do enough, which is ridiculous, because it was people who voted Tory that gave them a majority and will be responsible for what happens next. Our consciences are clear because we all tried in our own ways. And this leads me to something I've been wanting to say. There have been some unfair comments about this site and the people on it and echo chambers and stuff which has angered me. We are all doing different things in the outside world to make our communities better places to live. Coming together with other like-minded people is a positive way of sharing ideas and opinions. We can learn from each other what things work, what things don't. The idea that our being less insular and talking to people with opposing views elsewhere would in any way have changed the outcome of the election is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Our views and votes are as valid as other people's and anyone who thinks their own views are less re-enforced by the people they choose to surround themselves with than ours are surely mistaken. We all inhabit echo chambers, we all seek out those with like-minded views, it's human nature and we are all equally prone to it. It's not like we're not talking to people with opposing views elsewhere online and in 'real' life. No one seems to have seen the Tory majority coming, Ed kept them guessing right to the very end which means we were as right as anyone else in thinking he could have become PM, because he almost ruddy well did!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:25 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
JustMom wrote:'morning everyone, what do you all think of caroline flint as leader ?
No thanks.

Caroline Flint seems too obviously to be reading from a memorised script. She doesn't react flexibly to what is being said to her and is rather in the mould of Yvette Cooper. Which, for me, is not A Good Thing.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:26 pm

Sorry to hear your bad news pk1.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:28 pm

Willow904 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:@Willow904

Thanks for the response. Please don't let my maudlin wailing put you off!
That's ok. I was feeling a bit guilty for not joining sooner way before you said anything. I still feel I didn't do enough, which is ridiculous, because it was people who voted Tory that gave them a majority and will be responsible for what happens next. Our consciences are clear because we all tried in our own ways. And this leads me to something I've been wanting to say. There have been some unfair comments about this site and the people on it and echo chambers and stuff which has angered me. We are all doing different things in the outside world to make our communities better places to live. Coming together with other like-minded people is a positive way of sharing ideas and opinions. We can learn from each other what things work, what things don't. The idea that our being less insular and talking to people with opposing views elsewhere would in any way have changed the outcome of the election is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Our views and votes are as valid as other people's and anyone who thinks their own views are less re-enforced by the people they choose to surround themselves with than ours are surely mistaken. We all inhabit echo chambers, we all seek out those with like-minded views, it's human nature and we are all equally prone to it. It's not like we're not talking to people with opposing views elsewhere online and in 'real' life. No one seems to have seen the Tory majority coming, Ed kept them guessing right to the very end which means we were as right as anyone else in thinking he could have become PM, because he almost ruddy well did!

Outstanding post. Thank you, Willow904. Thank you for helping me understand.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:29 pm

pk1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
I know next to nothing of Dan Jarvis but my instinct is that if Labour are looking for 'something completely different' he would probably fit the bill. He would be very hard for the MSM to attack, being one of 'our boys', which would be extremely useful for Labour as the unremitting media onslaught on Ed was a big factor in his failure to win.
Exactly this.

How often we hear that politicians are nothing like us. Nobody could say that about Jarvis.

He has an interesting back story & has proven leadership skills - leading a troop of men in a war situation is something I suggest most of us will never have done in our lifetime.

Watch him when he speaks in Parliament, particularly at PMQ's - he speaks & all the caterwauling & insults stop. He commands silence in the House. He has gravitas.

I don't want a clown like Dave as my PM & if I can't have Ed, I'll have a man that speaks with authority & commands respect from all who hear him.

I'm still in shock, close to tears at times but yesterday evening also taught me that politics has to take a back seat when real life intrudes. My youngest son was on holiday in Spain with his girlfriend when his Dad, my ex, revealed that the lung cancer he developed 6 months after my own was discovered, had spread to his brain & he has a life expectancy iro 3 months. This is what I had to share with my boy at 1am when he got home, full of the joy of his holiday & I had to bring him crashing down to earth.

That is so sad and so tough for all of you pk. I hope you are all able to support each other as best you can ... and, yes, real life has to come first and is where we can make the most difference in the way we approach it. Best wishes to you all.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:29 pm

PorFavor wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
JustMom wrote:'morning everyone, what do you all think of caroline flint as leader ?
No thanks.
Caroline Flint seems too obviously to be reading from a memorised script. She doesn't react flexibly to what is being said to her and is rather in the mould of Yvette Cooper. Which, for me, is not A Good Thing.

Don't know enough about her to comment.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:31 pm

So the next 5 years will be worse than the last, and not only because of the things the tories will do/not do.

Within 3 years the economy and our international relations will go tits up to the point where even the MSM can't defend them any more, so we'll be treated to the media laying into them while all we can do is say I told you so.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:31 pm

Swarthlander wrote:Good morning.
Chins up, try to stay positive, onwards and upwards.... oh bollocks!

I read in yesterday's posts that Ed Miliband should stand for leader again. IMHO that won't happen and it just wouldn't work. He had a good try but unfortunately he failed.
To be real and honest, in politics he would be seen as a loser and conected to failure by all but his supporters.

I'm going to take a special interest in the leadership election, purely for my own sanity, and maybe a candidate could be found who has some connection to the 'real world' someone with experiences and understanding similar to those folk they want to vote Labour.

What has to be investigated is why many a usual Labour voter turned right/far-right. I think ohso hit on some reasons last night. So many people voting for basically a fascist party is worrying.

I think Scotland will break away from the UK. The excuse being a Tory Westminster. It will not bode well for them but if that's what they want then fair enough. My love of Scotland has diminished recently, I don't think I will be visiting up there again for a while, if ever again.

Ah well, life goes on. Once the euphoria dies down maybe the electorate will realise the result was not in their best interest.

Morning all,

I'm typing this out again as I lost connectivity with the site

I feel no better than I did yesterday

Swarthlander, I fear that Labour will not appoint anyone in the 'real' world. Sadly, we can already see the way it's going. Look at the candidate list for starters. Cooper and Umunna? We might as well pack up and go home now. I am deeply uninspired by either of them. Umunna gives me a bad vibe, you can just tell he's Blairite and quite probably someone already susceptible to Murdoch's noxious influence.

As the link in yesterday's thread to the Guardian leader points out, Umunna is already ringing around his colleagues trying to gain their support for his leadership bid. Putting his own ambitions before the party. As the Guardian points out, this is not what Labour needs at this point. Last time they left the Tories to set the narrative and by the time they were back in the game, they found it almost impossible to adequately challenge that narrative as it was too firmly established.

Yes, they need a new leader, but as the Graun points out, they need to be doing other things too right now, otherwise they'll just make the same mistakes as last time. That Umunna cannot see this points to his unsuitability for the job. My feelings are that if he was successful in his bid for leader, then it won't be long before the party is sucking up to Murdoch and city again, and policies like banning non-dom status quietly dropped from the next manifesto. Umunna will no doubt claim that it'll be what the public want, i.e. look they rejected Ed's vision and voted Tory, so they want right wing policies and warmed-over Blairism.

It might even work in the short term, and indeed Labour's primary focus should be to remove the Tories from power by any means necessary, but in the long run it will prove extremely damaging to Labour, maybe even fatally so. Ultimately, it'll be damaging to the country too, it's not good for democracy to have a lack of alternatives when it comes to the ballot box.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:31 pm

@pk1

Sorry to hear you had to break such news to your son. That must have been so hard. I hope both of you are ok.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:31 pm

Interesting from the North Yorks Enquirer
"If it should turn out that the tie-wrapping of ballot-boxes has extended throughout the constituency, this may raise the spectre of the Thirsk & Malton election being nullified, with the prospect of a re-run in a couple of months time"

http://nyenquirer.uk/thirsk-malton-ball ... fractions/

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:32 pm

@Swarthlander

What has to be investigated is why many a usual Labour voter turned right/far-right. I think ohso hit on some reasons last night. So many people voting for basically a fascist party is worrying.

Thankfully UKIP who placed second for the Euro elections, were relegated to third place behind Labour this time. There was a highish number of BNP votes for the Euro's too which was disturbing and made me realise Bracknell although it's a clean and pleasant looking town might not be such a nice place for newcomers

I know I'm right on single mothers, housing & imigrants, because I have to listen to it if I get into a conversation with quite a lot of working and lower middle class people round here. And yes I have spoken to apparently decent people who nevertheless milked the system simply because they could.

Ed was beaten by the 'Politicians are all the same' and 'I want it NOW' mentality because he had a good plan for getting council housing up and running again, which would immediately have taken the limelight off imigrants.

I admit up until a couple of years ago, I was very sceptical about all politicians no matter what the party.
Ed restored my faith that there are a few good 'uns, but once again I'm looking at the names being put forward with a very jaundiced eye.

If the right of the Labour party gain control it won't bring all the disaffected voters back, because they still remember Blair.
I didn't at the time, but now feel it was a mistake to let him show his face again. It just stirred up memories that were best left alone. We have friends who are still bitter about Iraq and still blame Labour.

In hindsight the Labour leaflets that I delivered were very wishy washy. Gentle is the word that came to mind when I saw them. Nothing accusatory or defensive [such as the recession] at all. If I'd been designing them, I'd have made a simple list of sell-offs, u-turns, broken promises and shambles and not put anything else at all.
'We will save the NHS' didn't exactly do it, let alone persuade an undecided to think about the consequences if he voted for another party.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:34 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:Thanks for the article yahyah - but link seems to be broken

In amongst the excitement yesterday I managed to miss Rusty's little intervention. What a pleasant fellow he is. I found myself wondering whether I would have allowed myself to gloat over right wingers in that sort of way in the event of a Labour victory. It probably would have been easy - I don't know any right wingers that I actually like. I know a couple through my writing but they turned out to have a deeply unpleasant streak. However, I don't think I would have gone to the trouble of registering on a right wing discussion site for the express purposes of rubbing their noses in it.

He raises a few things we might want to look at. Are we an echo chamber? Are we just convincing ourselves because we're excluding any other voices? I don't believe we are but perhaps we need to examine the right wing arguments (the proper ones, not the frothing of economically illiterate trolls justifying their hate and fear).

Still, as with dogs it's best to reward good behaviour and ignore bad. I suggest we forget about him. His delusions can't help him, and talking about them won't help us. Whether he has multiple identities or whether there are just a bunch of people who parrot similar sounding lines, it doesn't matter. Let's leave him to his foolishness and not give him the satisfaction of mentioning him.

His gloating post though raised in my mind an important point. The last government was a bad government, it failed by all standards including its own and yet the public has chosen to given the Tory part of it another go. Not as much as it might look - Tory share of the vote was the same as last time. The same share of the electorate voted Tory as in 2010 and slightly more voted Labour than in 2010. They won over 6% more of those who voted. It just isn't the wholsesale rejection of leftwing politics that Tories would like to claim. But too many people bought the narrative of Tory success and Labour failure.

So what do we do? And what can FTN do about it?

- Find and collate the evidence of Tory failure. It's out there and abundant
- Argue against it. Relentlessly. Eloquently. Convincingly. And not just here, we need to spread those arguments
- Do more. For all the talk of how Labour won the ground war, the Tories were (as always) better at getting their vote out. I bottled out of volunteering. I won't again. Tem's point about how Labour needs to be a movement again was correct. Many people here actually get out there and work - I know I need to follow their example more, perhaps others could look at what more they could do. There are those local campaigns, organisations, movements. We need to get FTN out of here and into the real world or the next five years is going to be long indeed. There's a high chance this goverment will collapse - let's get out there and give it a push.

From each according to his ability - to each according to his need. It's an unjust world and we live in an unjust country. The forces of injustice squeaked a win yesterday. I don't propose to let them enjoy their victory

Yes, we have to argue against the Tory narrative and do more too, out in the real world. Agree with all your points, Robert. Tx.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:34 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
JustMom wrote:'morning everyone, what do you all think of caroline flint as leader ?
I like her and think she did really well when on TV putting policy across. Also like the way she backed Ed. When you see some now coming out to speak against Ed, I do wonder "where were you during the campaign?"

Somewhat less loyal to Gordon Brown though, and a question mark or two hanging over her; subscribed more than a little to the skiver narrative when she was at Housing (and there was the incident when her briefing papers were visible on the way to Cabinet. Also got caught up in the expenses scandal (not a biggie, had to pay back about 700 quid I think) and voted to keep expenses secret.

Probably preferable to Yvette, but not by much of a margin.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:35 pm

Happy Birthday, howsillyofme1

Have a great day.

Swarthlander · Post by **Swarthlander** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:35 pm

gilsey wrote:Sorry to hear your bad news pk1.

And sorry from me too.

Speaking (typing) personally, as a Labour Party member, I will not vote for any of the 'old guard' come the leadership election. We need new blood, new ideas, new direction.
First and foremost we need to understand what happened and why, without looking to blame other organisations or parties or those who voted for them.
I do hope there is discipline within the Party and no 'faction' fights.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:36 pm

Swarthlander wrote:
yahyah wrote:Have seen a tweet saying Alan Johnson rules out Labour leadership bid.
Thank the gods.

The past has to be ditched. We need completely new blood.

Sadly, it doesn't look as though we are getting new blood.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:36 pm

Angela Eagle is articulate, experienced & she's a lesbian.
Where I've come from, being gay & standing for public office usually ain' no thing.
Does it matter here in the UK?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:38 pm

@daydreamer

Agreed. As I said earlier, the Labour Party should be better than a Groucho Marx one-liner (the "If you don't like my principles" etc etc). And Chuka Umunna is not my cup of tea at all. Even during the election campaign I got the sense that he was circling, hyena-like.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:39 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Swarthlander wrote:Oops, manners!

Happy birthday howsillyofme1!

Is there any chance of the 'thanks' button coming back?
There were so many posts yesterday that required a 'Hear! Hear! Especially the ones telling Rustyshite to Fuck the Fuck Off.

To all of you Thanks!

Hear, hear!

And, for the record, I'm not feeling any better today. Worse, if anything. Sorry to cast a pall on proceedings. We live in a society in which things, including values, are disposable. Instead of plugging on we throw things out and get new stuff. Including, it seems, principles. The Labour Party should be better than a Groucho Marx one-liner.

Edited "h" for "H"

(Some things will never change.)

I don't feel any better either PF, if anything I feel worse.

Yes, sadly it seems principles can be discarded like chip paper. I fear the Labour party isn't better though, see my pessimism on how the leadership bid is already shaking out. I despair

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:41 pm

Reading stuff like this excerpt from the Alan Johnson piece in the Graun, drives me round the twist:

Everyone is entitled to their theory as to what went wrong: mine is that from last week’s Question Time debate in Leeds, where Ed Miliband was assailed about Labour’s alleged overspending, the die was cast. The public became convinced that Labour had indeed driven the car into the ditch and declined to return the keys. While Miliband was valiantly attempting to own the future, he lost the core argument about the past.

Ok Alan, so where were you when Labour took 6 months to elect Ed & the lie was being trotted out ? What did you think might happen when you stated that you needed to buy a guide to economics, after being appointed Shadow Chancellor ? How often can you say you defended Ed & Labour during your lucrative numerous appearances on BBC's This Week with your buddies Andrew Neil & Michael Portillo ?

A long period of silence from Mr Johnson & his ilk would be most appropriate & very very welcome.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:41 pm

citizenJA wrote:Angela Eagle is articulate, experienced & she's a lesbian.
Where I've come from, being gay & standing for public office usually ain' no thing.
Does it matter here in the UK?

No not to me

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:42 pm

gilsey wrote:So the next 5 years will be worse than the last, and not only because of the things the tories will do/not do.

Within 3 years the economy and our international relations will go tits up to the point where even the MSM can't defend them any more, so we'll be treated to the media laying into them while all we can do is say I told you so.

I'm sorry. Yes. What you've written is probably true.

I'm sorry but looking at how things really are is essential to working out how to best take good action.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:45 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Angela Eagle is articulate, experienced & she's a lesbian.
Where I've come from, being gay & standing for public office usually ain' no thing.
Does it matter here in the UK?
No not to me

Not to me either.
I've got to know how things are in order to know what is best to do.
I've lived in my home, my country, the UK, for years.
What I don't know about my country, the UK, remains a lot.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:50 pm

yahyah wrote:It's giving me a new headache tbh.

In this media age do we go more by head than heart ?

Jarvis comes across well from what I've seen, and if we are leaching votes in the North someone who won't get written off by people who've shifted to UKIP must be an advantage.

But Jarvis would wind up the green leaners, because of his military background.
Don't know where he stands within Labour either...if anyone does would you mind sharing your views please ?

Would like a strong woman other than Cooper to consider, but she has too much baggage.

We don't have the luxury of the small parties, we need a leader who people of all types/ages/social groups will listen to.

Afternoon Yahyah,

I'm not enthused by most of the candidates standing. I feel Labour will end up going backwards, to Blairism again. Jarvis does indeed come across well, and seems a committed local MP.

Do you mean he won't get written off by people who've moved to UKIP because of his military background or because his constituency is in the North (though, of course, he was parachuted in from somewhere down south. Not that it's a problem, he seems to be doing a good enough job, only in that it might affect how new UKIP/old Labour voters react to him)?

Even though he's my MP I'm ashamed to say that I don't know where he stands in the party, i.e. left or right, Blairite? etc. I'll have to look at his voting record/interviews he's done.

I agree with you about Cooper, and I certainly don't want Umunna.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:50 pm

pk1 wrote:Reading stuff like this excerpt from the Alan Johnson piece in the Graun, drives me round the twist:

Everyone is entitled to their theory as to what went wrong: mine is that from last week’s Question Time debate in Leeds, where Ed Miliband was assailed about Labour’s alleged overspending, the die was cast. The public became convinced that Labour had indeed driven the car into the ditch and declined to return the keys. While Miliband was valiantly attempting to own the future, he lost the core argument about the past.
Ok Alan, so where were you when Labour took 6 months to elect Ed & the lie was being trotted out ? What did you think might happen when you stated that you needed to buy a guide to economics, after being appointed Shadow Chancellor ? How often can you say you defended Ed & Labour during your lucrative numerous appearances on BBC's This Week with your buddies Andrew Neil & Michael Portillo ?

A long period of silence from Mr Johnson & his ilk would be most appropriate & very very welcome.

I haven't looked at the Guardian or other mainstream press outlet because I'm not going to find out how things really are from them, in my opinion, though naturally I'll be looking more later on.

I don't need to get my heart broken some more just yet from dumb articles like Alan's right now. Thank you for telling me about it. Sincerely, thank you.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Sat 09 May, 2015 12:53 pm

Swarthlander wrote:And the media are already muck-stirring.

"Go back to Blairite values" and "Will David Milliband aim for Leadership?"
If those are the answers then the question is total shite.

Agree 100% Swarthlander. But I fear this is where we will end up, and we, the grass roots supporters, will not be able to prevent it. I feel, ultimately, it will lead to death of the party, or at least a serious demise.