Monday 11'th 2015

[AngryAsWell]

The link I posted above to British Influence ( http://www.britishinfluence.org/info ) has made me think (doing a lot of that today) its a cross party group with MP's from all party's joining together to campaign to stay in the EU.
Question
Will the very pro-EU SNP join with them? Its a powerful group, been working for ages and (as can be seen from the email I posted) are on-the-marks-ready-to-go.
I think SNP are on a sticky wicket if they join, and an equally stick one if they don't...

[PorFavor]

Goodnight, everyone. Maybe I'll dream of Whitehall farce-style chase scenes.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

There's a gremlin in this 'ere machine this eveningternooniewhatnot.

It's called Rusty (on account of headless chicken forgetting itself) and it's desperate for attention.

It can't troll us over there so it's come over here instead. It's bored too, as it keeps saying it wants us to watch some benefits programme.
I suspect the truth is it wants to watch it itself but wants us all to know it's on so it can troll about it a bit more. All our fault, it is.

Having been utterly convinced - now, missus, don't laugh, it's not funny - that Rusty was a demigod or world renowned leader of something or other on account of his/her/its deeply incisive intelligence - will you cease and desist from giggling in the back there - I am astonished to find that he/she/it is a FAN!!!!! OMG!!!!!!

So here we are, a bunch of stroppy old benefit-claiming wastrel living-in-the-past useless lefties (Rusty says we are so it must be true) and he/she/it and it's headless chicken thing is our NUMBER ONE FAN.
I am as astonished as you, my weirdie beardie leftie friends - but he/she/it has travelled a long way to get here, and we must not deny our new acolyte a proper resounding FTN welcome, I'm sure you'll all agree.

So - OhSo, get a cake sorted; yahyah, put that kettle on; AAW get out from behind that fridge and get some ostentatious breastfeeding going.
TGS - beers out of the cooler; all bloke-style FTNers are required to report for failing-to-light-the-barbie duty and our Green friends will dish out some, er, green salad while we wait for our honoured guest to arrive!

When it gets here, I am first with the custard pies. I have hundreds of 'em. Form an orderly queue.....

Pah, lighting the barbie is easy, just add petrol.

Night PF

[rebeccariots2]

A lot of us seem to be uneasy about the way the leadership election and future direction of the Labour party might go ... I know I am.

I've just had a long chat with my sister who I haven't spoken to since the fateful election results. To cut to the chase she is pretty dismayed at all the names / people trotted out so far and what that implies for the future. She's in London but says she will be off like a shot from Labour if we get another version of Blairism, liteism, metropolitanism, non human speakism. And so will I. If the candidates aren't representative of the wider party or inspiring we actually talked about then not voting at all, or voting for least worst, and / or spoiling ballot papers with an essay on why it should be none of the above.

There are some encouraging sounds from the unusual suspect MPs trying to tell the inner circle that it will be doom for Labour anywhere outside London / South East if we don't understand what is, and definitely isn't needed, in a leader and party vision this time. Some of them are asking for enough time to allow newer voices and candidates to emerge. But we were both worried about the media almost presenting the shift back to the right as a fait accompli and about how our voices get heard at the most critical juncture .... i.e. when candidates are putting themselves forward and the PLP are deciding whether to back them or not. If we get presented with a list of 6 that are plainly duds, same old same old - that is too late. There needs to be a way for the grassroots members to let MPs / inner circle know loud and clear what we think before / as they support candidates.

Just seen this tweet which looks as though it might start to provide a way to give some initial input (but there needs to be something more co-ordinated IMO).

stellacreasy retweeted
Rory Palmer ‏@Rory_Palmer 9m9 minutes ago
Absolutely right PLP get their say on leadership timetable; but what about grassroots members? NEC member @JonAshworth is asking for views.

So please people here - if you have a view let him know - and think what else can be done both on a co-ordinated basis and as individuals to get clear messages back to Labour HQ.

We also had an interesting discussion about how hard it will be to come back for both Labour and Lib Dems. Strangely perhaps - we can both see the Lib Dems doing that quite well. They have Tim Farron waiting in the wings already - and seem, despite all, to probably know what they stand for and are about more clearly than Labour does at the moment. They've got rid of most of the seriously rightwing Orange Bookers from their PLP ... it leaves the way clearer for the grassroots membership to influence and get enthused again - more space for growth.

[ephemerid]

Darling Ohso -
Fairy cakes. I am liking your style - can they have little hundreds and thousands and sparkly balls and Smarties? Pretty please?

Lovely TGS -
Prosecco indeed - I forgot her blog and how very very up with the all very very latest oeonic trends we are here in Wales. London? Pah!

To all - yes, including happyrustychikinpees for your ability to unwittingly provide me with a belly laugh - thank you.

I have had a good day, a bit a rant, a lot of a laugh, and the icing on my cake has been Abby Tomlinson's article on the G (didn't go BTL)

Like my old surfer friends used to say, S'been a ride, dudes.

[Tizme1]

Quite some time ago, I used a tool Labour set up to roughly calculate what number baby born on the NHS a person was. Used it to calculate not just mine, but each of my children. Of course you had to give an email address and since then I've been getting Labour emails to my email account but addressed to my daughter. Anyway, this is the latest and I'm glad they are doing this:

We suffered a terrible defeat last week.

There will be vibrant, vigorous debate about what went wrong and where the Labour Party should go next during our upcoming leadership elections — but first, I want to take a moment to thank Ed Miliband. For five years, he led our party with integrity, decency and great resolve.

Many people have asked how they can pass on a note of thanks to Ed, so I'm gathering together messages from Labour members and supporters to send him on Friday. if you'd like to write a quick note to Ed, click below — it can be as long or short as you like:

Your message

Leave a message for Ed

This is not an ending for our party. Right now, our top priority must be to form the strongest, most vocal opposition to this government we possibly can. Everyone we fought for in this election needs us to keep fighting for them every step of the way over the next five years — and we have 232 brilliant, passionate MPs who are committed to doing exactly that.

Thank you. More to come soon on the leadership election.

Iain

Iain McNicol
General Secretary of the Labour Party

[ephemerid]

Pah, lighting the barbie is easy, just add petrol.

Night PF

Good. I'll give that a go when chickipeasohappirust dares to prat about on my little thread again.

Poor dab. It's probably had to have a lie down after watching Benefits Street. The reality is so, like, real.

Nighty night, pal.

[rebeccariots2]

Rafael Behr ‏@rafaelbehr 21m21 minutes ago
Interesting intervention by @JamesDMorris on what Labour internal polling was showing http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32606713 …

... Mr Morris added that he believed the generous figures in public polls for Labour gave it "momentum in the face of a hostile media. Ultimately, however, it proved costly, allowing the campaign to become a referendum on the popularity of a putative Labour-SNP government.
"If Labour had been seen to be a couple of points behind, the scrutiny on the parties would have been more balanced, asking as much about the future of the NHS and living standards as they did about the role of Nicola Sturgeon."...

[Tubby Isaacs]

Did anyone get that "mailshot" from Osborne about "where your tax goes"?

Few more million wasted then.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

A lot of us seem to be uneasy about the way the leadership election and future direction of the Labour party might go ... I know I am.

I've just had a long chat with my sister who I haven't spoken to since the fateful election results. To cut to the chase she is pretty dismayed at all the names / people trotted out so far and what that implies for the future. She's in London but says she will be off like a shot from Labour if we get another version of Blairism, liteism, metropolitanism, non human speakism. And so will I. If the candidates aren't representative of the wider party or inspiring we actually talked about then not voting at all, or voting for least worst, and / or spoiling ballot papers with an essay on why it should be none of the above.

There are some encouraging sounds from the unusual suspect MPs trying to tell the inner circle that it will be doom for Labour anywhere outside London / South East if we don't understand what is, and definitely isn't needed, in a leader and party vision this time. Some of them are asking for enough time to allow newer voices and candidates to emerge. But we were both worried about the media almost presenting the shift back to the right as a fait accompli and about how our voices get heard at the most critical juncture .... i.e. when candidates are putting themselves forward and the PLP are deciding whether to back them or not. If we get presented with a list of 6 that are plainly duds, same old same old - that is too late. There needs to be a way for the grassroots members to let MPs / inner circle know loud and clear what we think before / as they support candidates.

Just seen this tweet which looks as though it might start to provide a way to give some initial input (but there needs to be something more co-ordinated IMO).

stellacreasy retweeted
Rory Palmer ‏@Rory_Palmer 9m9 minutes ago
Absolutely right PLP get their say on leadership timetable; but what about grassroots members? NEC member @JonAshworth is asking for views.

So please people here - if you have a view let him know - and think what else can be done both on a co-ordinated basis and as individuals to get clear messages back to Labour HQ.

We also had an interesting discussion about how hard it will be to come back for both Labour and Lib Dems. Strangely perhaps - we can both see the Lib Dems doing that quite well. They have Tim Farron waiting in the wings already - and seem, despite all, to probably know what they stand for and are about more clearly than Labour does at the moment. They've got rid of most of the seriously rightwing Orange Bookers from their PLP ... it leaves the way clearer for the grassroots membership to influence and get enthused again - more space for growth.

A couple of comments left, and have favourited him to keep in touch for the future.

Night all

[seeingclearly]

The overall benefit tax v the bedroom tax.

https://speye.wordpress.com/2015/05/11/ ... droom-tax/

[Tizme1]

There's a gremlin in this 'ere machine this eveningternooniewhatnot.

It's called Rusty (on account of headless chicken forgetting itself) and it's desperate for attention.

It can't troll us over there so it's come over here instead. It's bored too, as it keeps saying it wants us to watch some benefits programme.
I suspect the truth is it wants to watch it itself but wants us all to know it's on so it can troll about it a bit more. All our fault, it is.

Having been utterly convinced - now, missus, don't laugh, it's not funny - that Rusty was a demigod or world renowned leader of something or other on account of his/her/its deeply incisive intelligence - will you cease and desist from giggling in the back there - I am astonished to find that he/she/it is a FAN!!!!! OMG!!!!!!

So here we are, a bunch of stroppy old benefit-claiming wastrel living-in-the-past useless lefties (Rusty says we are so it must be true) and he/she/it and it's headless chicken thing is our NUMBER ONE FAN.
I am as astonished as you, my weirdie beardie leftie friends - but he/she/it has travelled a long way to get here, and we must not deny our new acolyte a proper resounding FTN welcome, I'm sure you'll all agree.

So - OhSo, get a cake sorted; yahyah, put that kettle on; AAW get out from behind that fridge and get some ostentatious breastfeeding going.
TGS - beers out of the cooler; all bloke-style FTNers are required to report for failing-to-light-the-barbie duty and our Green friends will dish out some, er, green salad while we wait for our honoured guest to arrive!

When it gets here, I am first with the custard pies. I have hundreds of 'em. Form an orderly queue.....

I could knit some spaghetti Ephe will that suit? Or maybe I could knock up a delicious healthy lentil curry. I'm so excited - is there time to change into a clean kaftan and my good[ish] sandals?

No.

Spaghetti knits itself. Mine never fail to do this all on its own in the pot. Clever coves, those Italians.
I don't like lentils much. It's the little stones that put me off.....

Green salads is fine. Lots of cucumber. And yogurt dressing.
We need something cooling to -
a) apply to Rusty's wounds when TGS has done his duty and beaten him to a pulp; and
b) soothe our vicious vicious tongues having burnt them on the chops which will be immolated by bloke-cooking in the traditional way.

The cabaret custard pie throwing contest will be run as follows -
I go first, because I'm the inventor of this unmissable event in the FTN social calendar (if in doubt, check the Tatler)
Next is TGS, because he hasn't been well and mustn't get too excited.
The OhSo, who is allowed to get really really close with at least 6 big pies - due to both seniority and cataracts.
Then it's a free-for-all, with Robert in charge of any life-threatening emergencies.


I want a real kaftan so much (seriously) that I am going to have to make one. Luckily for me they're easy to design and I've got some lovely fabrics.... all I need now is a sewing machine that doesn't keep blowing up. Can't afford a new one.

How about some tzatziki then? And/or cucumber raita?

[rebeccariots2]

The overall benefit tax v the bedroom tax.

https://speye.wordpress.com/2015/05/11/ ... droom-tax/

Thank you. Bloody awful. What are we doing to children - our future?

[AngryAsWell]

A lot of us seem to be uneasy about the way the leadership election and future direction of the Labour party might go ... I know I am.

I've just had a long chat with my sister who I haven't spoken to since the fateful election results. To cut to the chase she is pretty dismayed at all the names / people trotted out so far and what that implies for the future. She's in London but says she will be off like a shot from Labour if we get another version of Blairism, liteism, metropolitanism, non human speakism. And so will I. If the candidates aren't representative of the wider party or inspiring we actually talked about then not voting at all, or voting for least worst, and / or spoiling ballot papers with an essay on why it should be none of the above.

There are some encouraging sounds from the unusual suspect MPs trying to tell the inner circle that it will be doom for Labour anywhere outside London / South East if we don't understand what is, and definitely isn't needed, in a leader and party vision this time. Some of them are asking for enough time to allow newer voices and candidates to emerge. But we were both worried about the media almost presenting the shift back to the right as a fait accompli and about how our voices get heard at the most critical juncture .... i.e. when candidates are putting themselves forward and the PLP are deciding whether to back them or not. If we get presented with a list of 6 that are plainly duds, same old same old - that is too late. There needs to be a way for the grassroots members to let MPs / inner circle know loud and clear what we think before / as they support candidates.

Just seen this tweet which looks as though it might start to provide a way to give some initial input (but there needs to be something more co-ordinated IMO).

stellacreasy retweeted
Rory Palmer ‏@Rory_Palmer 9m9 minutes ago
Absolutely right PLP get their say on leadership timetable; but what about grassroots members? NEC member @JonAshworth is asking for views.

So please people here - if you have a view let him know - and think what else can be done both on a co-ordinated basis and as individuals to get clear messages back to Labour HQ.

We also had an interesting discussion about how hard it will be to come back for both Labour and Lib Dems. Strangely perhaps - we can both see the Lib Dems doing that quite well. They have Tim Farron waiting in the wings already - and seem, despite all, to probably know what they stand for and are about more clearly than Labour does at the moment. They've got rid of most of the seriously rightwing Orange Bookers from their PLP ... it leaves the way clearer for the grassroots membership to influence and get enthused again - more space for growth.

I'm not sure how feasible taking into account over 200,000 individual voices, each with a different message, actually is ? As I think things over I've come to 3 different conclusions today and will probable have 3 more tomorrow. A short election may produce the wrong leader - a long one lets the tory steel a march again, but over five years, when they are not trashing our record but having to defend their own I'm not sure that matters. So then a long campaign giving more time to understand the candidates becomes more realistic.
But to be truthful I'm not sure I'm qualified to make that kind of decision.

[rebeccariots2]

A lot of us seem to be uneasy about the way the leadership election and future direction of the Labour party might go ... I know I am.

I've just had a long chat with my sister who I haven't spoken to since the fateful election results. To cut to the chase she is pretty dismayed at all the names / people trotted out so far and what that implies for the future. She's in London but says she will be off like a shot from Labour if we get another version of Blairism, liteism, metropolitanism, non human speakism. And so will I. If the candidates aren't representative of the wider party or inspiring we actually talked about then not voting at all, or voting for least worst, and / or spoiling ballot papers with an essay on why it should be none of the above.

There are some encouraging sounds from the unusual suspect MPs trying to tell the inner circle that it will be doom for Labour anywhere outside London / South East if we don't understand what is, and definitely isn't needed, in a leader and party vision this time. Some of them are asking for enough time to allow newer voices and candidates to emerge. But we were both worried about the media almost presenting the shift back to the right as a fait accompli and about how our voices get heard at the most critical juncture .... i.e. when candidates are putting themselves forward and the PLP are deciding whether to back them or not. If we get presented with a list of 6 that are plainly duds, same old same old - that is too late. There needs to be a way for the grassroots members to let MPs / inner circle know loud and clear what we think before / as they support candidates.

Just seen this tweet which looks as though it might start to provide a way to give some initial input (but there needs to be something more co-ordinated IMO).

stellacreasy retweeted
Rory Palmer ‏@Rory_Palmer 9m9 minutes ago
Absolutely right PLP get their say on leadership timetable; but what about grassroots members? NEC member @JonAshworth is asking for views.

So please people here - if you have a view let him know - and think what else can be done both on a co-ordinated basis and as individuals to get clear messages back to Labour HQ.

We also had an interesting discussion about how hard it will be to come back for both Labour and Lib Dems. Strangely perhaps - we can both see the Lib Dems doing that quite well. They have Tim Farron waiting in the wings already - and seem, despite all, to probably know what they stand for and are about more clearly than Labour does at the moment. They've got rid of most of the seriously rightwing Orange Bookers from their PLP ... it leaves the way clearer for the grassroots membership to influence and get enthused again - more space for growth.

I'm not sure how feasible taking into account over 200,000 individual voices, each with a different message, actually is ? As I think things over I've come to 3 different conclusions today and will probable have 3 more tomorrow. A short election may produce the wrong leader - a long one lets the tory steel a march again, but over five years, when they are not trashing our record but having to defend their own I'm not sure that matters. So then a long campaign giving more time to understand the candidates becomes more realistic.
But to be truthful I'm not sure I'm qualified to make that kind of decision.

Is your branch going to discuss / review your local and the national campaign? Ours is - and from that I hope we may be able to send some agreed points back up the chain re vision, leadership, what is needed as a way forward. Of course, if I find I have wildly differing views or the branch membership is not up for feeding into the process ... I will be making sure I send my views in anyway.

[AngryAsWell]

A lot of us seem to be uneasy about the way the leadership election and future direction of the Labour party might go ... I know I am.

I've just had a long chat with my sister who I haven't spoken to since the fateful election results. To cut to the chase she is pretty dismayed at all the names / people trotted out so far and what that implies for the future. She's in London but says she will be off like a shot from Labour if we get another version of Blairism, liteism, metropolitanism, non human speakism. And so will I. If the candidates aren't representative of the wider party or inspiring we actually talked about then not voting at all, or voting for least worst, and / or spoiling ballot papers with an essay on why it should be none of the above.

There are some encouraging sounds from the unusual suspect MPs trying to tell the inner circle that it will be doom for Labour anywhere outside London / South East if we don't understand what is, and definitely isn't needed, in a leader and party vision this time. Some of them are asking for enough time to allow newer voices and candidates to emerge. But we were both worried about the media almost presenting the shift back to the right as a fait accompli and about how our voices get heard at the most critical juncture .... i.e. when candidates are putting themselves forward and the PLP are deciding whether to back them or not. If we get presented with a list of 6 that are plainly duds, same old same old - that is too late. There needs to be a way for the grassroots members to let MPs / inner circle know loud and clear what we think before / as they support candidates.

Just seen this tweet which looks as though it might start to provide a way to give some initial input (but there needs to be something more co-ordinated IMO).

stellacreasy retweeted
Rory Palmer ‏@Rory_Palmer 9m9 minutes ago
Absolutely right PLP get their say on leadership timetable; but what about grassroots members? NEC member @JonAshworth is asking for views.

So please people here - if you have a view let him know - and think what else can be done both on a co-ordinated basis and as individuals to get clear messages back to Labour HQ.

We also had an interesting discussion about how hard it will be to come back for both Labour and Lib Dems. Strangely perhaps - we can both see the Lib Dems doing that quite well. They have Tim Farron waiting in the wings already - and seem, despite all, to probably know what they stand for and are about more clearly than Labour does at the moment. They've got rid of most of the seriously rightwing Orange Bookers from their PLP ... it leaves the way clearer for the grassroots membership to influence and get enthused again - more space for growth.

I'm not sure how feasible taking into account over 200,000 individual voices, each with a different message, actually is ? As I think things over I've come to 3 different conclusions today and will probable have 3 more tomorrow. A short election may produce the wrong leader - a long one lets the tory steel a march again, but over five years, when they are not trashing our record but having to defend their own I'm not sure that matters. So then a long campaign giving more time to understand the candidates becomes more realistic.
But to be truthful I'm not sure I'm qualified to make that kind of decision.

Still on the leader, I posted this earlier but got no response, I was hoping for some thing, from someone, anyone to help clear my brain.

I've been thinking a lot to day.
Mainly about what Hugo has had to say, and one comment in particular he made which was (along the lines of)
"Any one of you here today would prefer a Tony Blair government to the one we have now..." and he is right as far as I'm concerned (minus the war)
That's what has been playing on my mind.
First, and in retrospect, why didn't "right wing Labour" apply the same rule? That any Labour is better than no Labour? Why didn't they get behind Ed, instead of sniping from the side lines, and ensure he got elected?
Hugo if you read this would you be so kind as to answer that for me ? thanks.
Looking forward
Hugo's statement still stands.
Tonight people are going to bed hungry, will be struggling to find money to pay the bedroom tax, and telling their kids sorry but no, I can't afford it. "It" being anything from a bar of chocolate to a new coat or pair of shoes, come winter they will be cold and hungry. The NHS is on the point of no return and ...well I don't have to list every thing, you all know anyway. And for those reasons, and starting from the position we are in now, then yes, I would prefer a TB gov to this lot - but that doesn't mean I want one. I feel like I'm backed into a corner with no way out. Either we accept a right wing leader or right wing Labour will again join the rabid press and make sure, as they did by not supporting Ed (till too late to make a difference) whoever it is fails.
This is what is being done and I can't see a way round it.

[rebeccariots2]

George Eaton retweeted
Ben Riley-Smith @benrileysmith · 2h 2 hours ago
Repeatedly asked Douglas Carswell if will quit Ukip after Farage return. He responds: "No comment."

Robert Hutton ‏@RobDotHutton 4m4 minutes ago
If Douglas Carswell does quit UKIP, I hope he has another by-election. It's days since people of Clacton had a say http://bloom.bg/1F2M8t7

[citizenJA]

Oh, and by the way - much as I don't like this or agree with the reasons why - Ed did cost some votes. Around here, where a LibDem held his seat, Ed Balls lost his and so forth, I've heard a lot of people saying they didn't like him. People who say they're not party-affiliated found a reason not to vote in Ed. A handful of those were (a) people who told me they voted Labour last time but not this time and (b) in Ed Balls' constituency. A majority of a handful says that matters.

I'm not saying it's him that lost the election, and I, personally, think he was an asset. But it's no point pretending the party didn't have a personality problem as well as a policy one. The fact that those who already liked him still like him doesn't mean plenty of people didn't. And if the party had answers to some of the other issues then maybe it would've been different. But regardless of Sturgeon and Cameron, it's as sad as it is true that Ed was not a vote winner where he was needed to be one. I think that's a sad reflection of how much spin has poisoned people's views, but I've no evidence for that.

Speaking to Conservative voting relatives since the GE, the Weak and Wierd appraisal popped up plus the SNP going nuts in power. Asked to elaborate on, give specifics on why these conclusions were reached and there's a shrug and a reliance on Because. Listing policies and asking which they opposed revealed very little issues.

Heartening and disheartening simultaneously.

Politics is emotional & people are moved by all kinds of different information they're exposed to. It's extraordinarily interesting & head-shaking horrifying both realising balances are tipped one way or another over who knows what exactly - we're allowed to see a small part of government & the people making up leadership. This quote from onebuttonmonkey's post here:

"But it's no point pretending the party didn't have a personality problem as well as a policy one. The fact that those who already liked him still like him doesn't mean plenty of people didn't. And if the party had answers to some of the other issues then maybe it would've been different. But regardless of Sturgeon and Cameron, it's as sad as it is true that Ed was not a vote winner where he was needed to be one. I think that's a sad reflection of how much spin has poisoned people's views, but I've no evidence for that."

I'm not disagreeing with onebuttonmonkey's analysis. I agree it's 'poison spin'. Most people don't have the time or inclination to untangle what we briefly get to look at, read & put a check next to the party & name (or not at all).

I'm a Labour party member & supporter. I can't see too far outside myself, to see with true objectivity & pin point what returned a Tory majority government in May 2015. At a guess after my work & walking commute today I'd say it was intentionally cultivated fear. Strategic fear messages from leadership in order to take the election.

We're presented with pre-formatted debates, speeches & policy announcements. Please remember the people being paid all kinds of money to manage the information most of us will be able to see & hear. Psychological manipulation works.

I'd sure as hell love it if it didn't matter who got returned to government! Jesus, I honestly wish there's no difference between Labour & Tory. I'd willingly get laughed out of the room daily, if I could be assured this Tory government will care for all the people regardless of where they live or how they voted. If I knew not a single person would be harmed by the policies, actions & legislation of the Tory government, I'd throw my own ego on the ground & laugh along with you! Daily laugh at myself, how silly I was thinking! Ha! It's not my ego in the way here. It's recorded history. The last five years of Tory-led coalition government hurt people with polices, legislation & indifference. Those Tories have been re-elected for maybe five years more.

Does Labour, Green, SNP, TUSC, NHS, Bus Pass Elvis or any other political party need to know how to manipulate populations in order to get elected? People aren't always rational; that's part of the human condition. Telling everyone the truth isn't enough. Painstakingly making commitments only after years of study & cooperation with people knowing how much things cost isn't enough.

Knowing his own integrity, Ed Miliband's promises made to the people would be engraved into stone placed next to the place he would work to keep his promises to the people.

[rebeccariots2]

Still on the leader, I posted this earlier but got no response, I was hoping for some thing, from someone, anyone to help clear my brain.

I've been thinking a lot to day.
Mainly about what Hugo has had to say, and one comment in particular he made which was (along the lines of)
"Any one of you here today would prefer a Tony Blair government to the one we have now..." and he is right as far as I'm concerned (minus the war)
That's what has been playing on my mind.
First, and in retrospect, why didn't "right wing Labour" apply the same rule? That any Labour is better than no Labour? Why didn't they get behind Ed, instead of sniping from the side lines, and ensure he got elected?
Hugo if you read this would you be so kind as to answer that for me ? thanks.
Looking forward
Hugo's statement still stands.
Tonight people are going to bed hungry, will be struggling to find money to pay the bedroom tax, and telling their kids sorry but no, I can't afford it. "It" being anything from a bar of chocolate to a new coat or pair of shoes, come winter they will be cold and hungry. The NHS is on the point of no return and ...well I don't have to list every thing, you all know anyway. And for those reasons, and starting from the position we are in now, then yes, I would prefer a TB gov to this lot - but that doesn't mean I want one. I feel like I'm backed into a corner with no way out. Either we accept a right wing leader or right wing Labour will again join the rabid press and make sure, as they did by not supporting Ed (till too late to make a difference) whoever it is fails.
This is what is being done and I can't see a way round it.

It's a statement I'd find it difficult to oppose - yes, this current Tory government looks set to be an absolute nightmare, laying waste to some of the structures and values I think are the very heart of what the UK is and should be about - no Labour government would be wanting to abolish the Human Rights Act for example. And yes - I feel devastated that the bedroom tax is still going to be causing so much suffering - and about to get worse.

But I'm still not sure about accepting a 'right wing leader' and therefore stance ... I'd prefer to fight for something better than that if I'm going to put my energy and soul into a movement. I want to be engaged in a proper movement not just adopting a stance.

[RogerOThornhill]

George Eaton retweeted
Ben Riley-Smith @benrileysmith · 2h 2 hours ago
Repeatedly asked Douglas Carswell if will quit Ukip after Farage return. He responds: "No comment."

Robert Hutton ‏@RobDotHutton 4m4 minutes ago
If Douglas Carswell does quit UKIP, I hope he has another by-election. It's days since people of Clacton had a say http://bloom.bg/1F2M8t7

We said ages ago that we wondered whether Carswell would regret having joined UKIP.

[AngryAsWell]

Thanks for that RR2, I'm too tired to think just now so will off to bed with me and hope for a clearer head tomorrow

[Tizme1]

A lot of us seem to be uneasy about the way the leadership election and future direction of the Labour party might go ... I know I am.

I've just had a long chat with my sister who I haven't spoken to since the fateful election results. To cut to the chase she is pretty dismayed at all the names / people trotted out so far and what that implies for the future. She's in London but says she will be off like a shot from Labour if we get another version of Blairism, liteism, metropolitanism, non human speakism. And so will I. If the candidates aren't representative of the wider party or inspiring we actually talked about then not voting at all, or voting for least worst, and / or spoiling ballot papers with an essay on why it should be none of the above.

There are some encouraging sounds from the unusual suspect MPs trying to tell the inner circle that it will be doom for Labour anywhere outside London / South East if we don't understand what is, and definitely isn't needed, in a leader and party vision this time. Some of them are asking for enough time to allow newer voices and candidates to emerge. But we were both worried about the media almost presenting the shift back to the right as a fait accompli and about how our voices get heard at the most critical juncture .... i.e. when candidates are putting themselves forward and the PLP are deciding whether to back them or not. If we get presented with a list of 6 that are plainly duds, same old same old - that is too late. There needs to be a way for the grassroots members to let MPs / inner circle know loud and clear what we think before / as they support candidates.

Just seen this tweet which looks as though it might start to provide a way to give some initial input (but there needs to be something more co-ordinated IMO).
So please people here - if you have a view let him know - and think what else can be done both on a co-ordinated basis and as individuals to get clear messages back to Labour HQ.

We also had an interesting discussion about how hard it will be to come back for both Labour and Lib Dems. Strangely perhaps - we can both see the Lib Dems doing that quite well. They have Tim Farron waiting in the wings already - and seem, despite all, to probably know what they stand for and are about more clearly than Labour does at the moment. They've got rid of most of the seriously rightwing Orange Bookers from their PLP ... it leaves the way clearer for the grassroots membership to influence and get enthused again - more space for growth.

I'm not sure how feasible taking into account over 200,000 individual voices, each with a different message, actually is ? As I think things over I've come to 3 different conclusions today and will probable have 3 more tomorrow. A short election may produce the wrong leader - a long one lets the tory steel a march again, but over five years, when they are not trashing our record but having to defend their own I'm not sure that matters. So then a long campaign giving more time to understand the candidates becomes more realistic.
But to be truthful I'm not sure I'm qualified to make that kind of decision.

Still on the leader, I posted this earlier but got no response, I was hoping for some thing, from someone, anyone to help clear my brain.

I've been thinking a lot to day.
Mainly about what Hugo has had to say, and one comment in particular he made which was (along the lines of)
"Any one of you here today would prefer a Tony Blair government to the one we have now..." and he is right as far as I'm concerned (minus the war)
That's what has been playing on my mind.
First, and in retrospect, why didn't "right wing Labour" apply the same rule? That any Labour is better than no Labour? Why didn't they get behind Ed, instead of sniping from the side lines, and ensure he got elected?
Hugo if you read this would you be so kind as to answer that for me ? thanks.
Looking forward
Hugo's statement still stands.
Tonight people are going to bed hungry, will be struggling to find money to pay the bedroom tax, and telling their kids sorry but no, I can't afford it. "It" being anything from a bar of chocolate to a new coat or pair of shoes, come winter they will be cold and hungry. The NHS is on the point of no return and ...well I don't have to list every thing, you all know anyway. And for those reasons, and starting from the position we are in now, then yes, I would prefer a TB gov to this lot - but that doesn't mean I want one. I feel like I'm backed into a corner with no way out. Either we accept a right wing leader or right wing Labour will again join the rabid press and make sure, as they did by not supporting Ed (till too late to make a difference) whoever it is fails.
This is what is being done and I can't see a way round it.

Ok treading very carefully here but in a way, that is a bit like how I felt as a Green that wanted Labour to win. Not exactly the government I wanted in an ideal world, but the best on offer at the time. I hasten to add I believe a government led by Ed would have been much better than the one led by Blair. Though let us not forget, some good things were achieved. Actively wanting a right wing Labour government though might be a step too far for me. On the other hand, it still would be better than what we've got. Just about. I think.

Bloody hell. I've just risked upsetting you and everyone purely to go round in a circle and not actually answer you. This is starting to remind me of Philosophy classes when I'd leave with an aching brain. It's no wonder lots of people don't want to engage in political discussion/thought. There are few if any, black and white answers.

[citizenJA]

Thanks for that RR2, I'm too tired to think just now so will off to bed with me and hope for a clearer head tomorrow

Goodnight, AAW. I'm still catching up on the posts here today. Thank you.

[citizenJA]

I'm not sure how feasible taking into account over 200,000 individual voices, each with a different message, actually is ? As I think things over I've come to 3 different conclusions today and will probable have 3 more tomorrow. A short election may produce the wrong leader - a long one lets the tory steel a march again, but over five years, when they are not trashing our record but having to defend their own I'm not sure that matters. So then a long campaign giving more time to understand the candidates becomes more realistic.
But to be truthful I'm not sure I'm qualified to make that kind of decision.

Still on the leader, I posted this earlier but got no response, I was hoping for some thing, from someone, anyone to help clear my brain.

I've been thinking a lot to day.
Mainly about what Hugo has had to say, and one comment in particular he made which was (along the lines of)
"Any one of you here today would prefer a Tony Blair government to the one we have now..." and he is right as far as I'm concerned (minus the war)
That's what has been playing on my mind.
First, and in retrospect, why didn't "right wing Labour" apply the same rule? That any Labour is better than no Labour? Why didn't they get behind Ed, instead of sniping from the side lines, and ensure he got elected?
Hugo if you read this would you be so kind as to answer that for me ? thanks.
Looking forward
Hugo's statement still stands.
Tonight people are going to bed hungry, will be struggling to find money to pay the bedroom tax, and telling their kids sorry but no, I can't afford it. "It" being anything from a bar of chocolate to a new coat or pair of shoes, come winter they will be cold and hungry. The NHS is on the point of no return and ...well I don't have to list every thing, you all know anyway. And for those reasons, and starting from the position we are in now, then yes, I would prefer a TB gov to this lot - but that doesn't mean I want one. I feel like I'm backed into a corner with no way out. Either we accept a right wing leader or right wing Labour will again join the rabid press and make sure, as they did by not supporting Ed (till too late to make a difference) whoever it is fails.
This is what is being done and I can't see a way round it.

Ok treading very carefully here but in a way, that is a bit like how I felt as a Green that wanted Labour to win. Not exactly the government I wanted in an ideal world, but the best on offer at the time. I hasten to add I believe a government led by Ed would have been much better than the one led by Blair. Though let us not forget, some good things were achieved. Actively wanting a right wing Labour government though might be a step too far for me. On the other hand, it still would be better than what we've got. Just about. I think.

Bloody hell. I've just risked upsetting you and everyone purely to go round in a circle and not actually answer you. This is starting to remind me of Philosophy classes when I'd leave with an aching brain. It's no wonder lots of people don't want to engage in political discussion/thought. There are few if any, black and white answers.

Magnificent post! Thank you!

[citizenJA]

A small chicken coming home to roost. According to Ch4 news because UKs unemployment figures are so good, compared with rest of EU, we will overtake a greater proportion of the refugees landing in Italy. Shouldn't fiddle the figures.

Hahahahahaha! Let it all come home to you, David Cameron!

[ylwnlm]

Two things about this latest infestation:

1. Ignore it now
2. Delete the account now

It's not here to debate...

Not anymore I'm not.

Maybe I would have been. You judge with so little to go on.

Did anyone listen to the interview or read the transcript? Hedges is way to the left of most of you here but one point he makes really should resonate:

What left wing parties urgently need to do is build mass support. Or rebuild it in the case of the Labour party. That is if you want to be able to stop struggling with the idea that SpinningHugo may have some kind of point. What Blairism really did was shift politics to the right. In the long term it is a disasterous strategy. Do it again and it will happen again. This is an ideological ratchet.

The utter ruthlessness and dishonesty of the right should never be underestimated.

I really did feel well disposed to you all (well most of you) and still wish you the best. Goodbye.

[citizenJA]

A small chicken coming home to roost. According to Ch4 news because UKs unemployment figures are so good, compared with rest of EU, we will overtake a greater proportion of the refugees landing in Italy. Shouldn't fiddle the figures.

Apparently this is one area of the EU treaty that we have a veto over. Dave can, and I bet will, say the UK isn't going to take them. This will, no doubt, go down well with his backbenchers and the Ukippers.

The rest of the EU won't dig it. Pissing off the EU nations too much puts Dave in the shit with his party's donors. Just keep running your head into the wall, Dave, for as long as you're in the leadership position. Everyone, including yourself, will be better off.

[citizenJA]

Two things about this latest infestation:

1. Ignore it now
2. Delete the account now

It's not here to debate...

Not anymore I'm not.

Maybe I would have been. You judge with so little to go on.

Did anyone listen to the interview or read the transcript? Hedges is way to the left of most of you here but one point he makes really should resonate:

What left wing parties urgently need to do is build mass support. Or rebuild it in the case of the Labour party. That is if you want to be able to stop struggling with the idea that SpinningHugo may have some kind of point. What Blairism really did was shift politics to the right. In the long term it is a disasterous strategy. Do it again and it will happen again. This is an ideological ratchet.

The utter ruthlessness and dishonesty of the right should never be underestimated.

I really did feel well disposed to you all (well most of you) and still wish you the best. Goodbye.

Oh dear. Have I missed a new member & the new commentator already off? Please have a biscuit. My Jaffa cake share is yours. I'm not as fond of them as I am of the chocolate rolls.

Edited to add...
...the fact is, I ate all the chocolate rolls. I can't offer you one at the moment. Please come back to have one with the new supply.

[citizenJA]

Goodnight, TGS

[rebeccariots2]

Two things about this latest infestation:

1. Ignore it now
2. Delete the account now

It's not here to debate...

Not anymore I'm not.

Maybe I would have been. You judge with so little to go on.

Did anyone listen to the interview or read the transcript? Hedges is way to the left of most of you here but one point he makes really should resonate:

What left wing parties urgently need to do is build mass support. Or rebuild it in the case of the Labour party. That is if you want to be able to stop struggling with the idea that SpinningHugo may have some kind of point. What Blairism really did was shift politics to the right. In the long term it is a disasterous strategy. Do it again and it will happen again. This is an ideological ratchet.

The utter ruthlessness and dishonesty of the right should never be underestimated.

I really did feel well disposed to you all (well most of you) and still wish you the best. Goodbye.

Hello ylwnlm. Sorry not to have said hello before. I really don't think Roger's post was aimed at you at all. We had some extremely unpleasant trolling posts from a couple of other usernames - which people started responding to - and I believe Roger was talking about those.

I do remember your post from this morning but didn't have time to follow the link. I was on the board briefly early on - but then went out to work and didn't pick up on it again when I got back. You haven't had the usual welcomes from people on FTN for first posters - again sorry. I believe that's partly because we are all more stressed and not quite our usual selves - and because your post coincided with these others.

Hope you will look back in again and give us another go. RR2

[RogerOThornhill]

Two things about this latest infestation:

1. Ignore it now
2. Delete the account now

It's not here to debate...

Not anymore I'm not.

Maybe I would have been. You judge with so little to go on.

Did anyone listen to the interview or read the transcript? Hedges is way to the left of most of you here but one point he makes really should resonate:

What left wing parties urgently need to do is build mass support. Or rebuild it in the case of the Labour party. That is if you want to be able to stop struggling with the idea that SpinningHugo may have some kind of point. What Blairism really did was shift politics to the right. In the long term it is a disasterous strategy. Do it again and it will happen again. This is an ideological ratchet.

The utter ruthlessness and dishonesty of the right should never be underestimated.

I really did feel well disposed to you all (well most of you) and still wish you the best. Goodbye.

Erm...I wasn't referring to you but that HappyChickie thing. I had thought that was obvious but apologise if I didn't make myself clear.

[adam]

One final thought and then I really am gone.

Having allowed labour to crucify themselves in scotland fighting against independence, I am sure that Cameron's and Crosby's next plan is to allow them to do the same across those 'purple in second place' areas on the map in the coming EU referendum.

On current form I am quite sure that the referendum will be lost and that we'll be leaving, (go on, tell me what the polls say, I fucking dare you) and that this will be followed by a second but this time successful indieref in Scotland. The tories will divide in two on europe but will come back together afterwards. Cameron's hope is that the referendum will be the bedrock for UKIPs capture of 'old' working class labour.

So I would very very strongly argue that labour should have nothing to do with Cameron's albatross. Don't get involved, don't campaign, don't take part. It's his mess. If Labour fight UKIP for Cameron on the referendum then 2020 in the urban north and midlands will be Scotland.

[citizenJA]

Ed didn't lose us votes.
Just listened (well a while ago) to Olli Grenda (SP?) on the radio, LibDems have already done their analysis (fewer voter base to look at) and conclude the last ditch letter sent on the day before polling to all marginal seats (not sure if she meant just LibDem marginals, that needs investigating) clinched it for the torys. In it he pleaded that the SNP would have such a hold over Labour that (virtually) the whole world would collapse. They have already made voter contact and that letter was the over whelming reason given by those voters (who had already committed to vote LibDem during the campaign) changing at the last minute was fear of the SNP.
Perhaps Labour should contact the LibDem and pool inquest enquires. We need to know if that letter went out to all marginals.
We were expecting a dirty last ditch dirt throwing, but didn't expect it to land such a direct hit on marginal seats.
Two more tory voters I've spoken to both said they couldn't risk the SNP holding power over Labour. So that's three I've spoken to. I don't know any more to ask.

Agreed, thank you for this post.

[citizenJA]

One final thought and then I really am gone.

Having allowed labour to crucify themselves in scotland fighting against independence, I am sure that Cameron's and Crosby's next plan is to allow them to do the same across those 'purple in second place' areas on the map in the coming EU referendum.

On current form I am quite sure that the referendum will be lost and that we'll be leaving, (go on, tell me what the polls say, I fucking dare you) and that this will be followed by a second but this time successful indieref in Scotland. The tories will divide in two on europe but will come back together afterwards. Cameron's hope is that the referendum will be the bedrock for UKIPs capture of 'old' working class labour.

So I would very very strongly argue that labour should have nothing to do with Cameron's albatross. Don't get involved, don't campaign, don't take part. It's his mess. If Labour fight UKIP for Cameron on the referendum then 2020 in the urban north and midlands will be Scotland.

I'm in agreement with you regarding Dave's referendum.

[rebeccariots2]

One final thought and then I really am gone.

Having allowed labour to crucify themselves in scotland fighting against independence, I am sure that Cameron's and Crosby's next plan is to allow them to do the same across those 'purple in second place' areas on the map in the coming EU referendum.

On current form I am quite sure that the referendum will be lost and that we'll be leaving, (go on, tell me what the polls say, I fucking dare you) and that this will be followed by a second but this time successful indieref in Scotland. The tories will divide in two on europe but will come back together afterwards. Cameron's hope is that the referendum will be the bedrock for UKIPs capture of 'old' working class labour.

So I would very very strongly argue that labour should have nothing to do with Cameron's albatross. Don't get involved, don't campaign, don't take part. It's his mess. If Labour fight UKIP for Cameron on the referendum then 2020 in the urban north and midlands will be Scotland.

Some very sobering points and thoughts there. Inclined to agree with you about taking a backseat - certainly no involvement in anything Cameron sets up.

Going to be interesting to see what stance both the SNP and businesses take re campaign involvement.

[citizenJA]

Goodnight, everyone.
love
cJA

[RogerOThornhill]

One final thought and then I really am gone.

Having allowed labour to crucify themselves in scotland fighting against independence, I am sure that Cameron's and Crosby's next plan is to allow them to do the same across those 'purple in second place' areas on the map in the coming EU referendum.

On current form I am quite sure that the referendum will be lost and that we'll be leaving, (go on, tell me what the polls say, I fucking dare you) and that this will be followed by a second but this time successful indieref in Scotland. The tories will divide in two on europe but will come back together afterwards. Cameron's hope is that the referendum will be the bedrock for UKIPs capture of 'old' working class labour.

So I would very very strongly argue that labour should have nothing to do with Cameron's albatross. Don't get involved, don't campaign, don't take part. It's his mess. If Labour fight UKIP for Cameron on the referendum then 2020 in the urban north and midlands will be Scotland.

I'm not sure...I tend to take the view that whichever way the vote goes, UKIP are finished.

1. If we vote to leave then their work is done. That's what their ultimate aim is so what's the point of them afterwards?

2. If we vote to stay then what do they do - continue to campaign for another vote on the basis that they won't be happy until we vote to leave? Unlikely as there won't be another vote in our lifetime I doubt.

Now there could easily be a splintering of the Tory party which ends up with the free market loons which are now in control go one way and the traditional Tories go another.

Agreed thought that Labour keep well clear - they didn't want a vote so they let Cameron get on with it.

[Tizme1]

Two things about this latest infestation:

1. Ignore it now
2. Delete the account now

It's not here to debate...

Not anymore I'm not.

Maybe I would have been. You judge with so little to go on.

Did anyone listen to the interview or read the transcript? Hedges is way to the left of most of you here but one point he makes really should resonate:

What left wing parties urgently need to do is build mass support. Or rebuild it in the case of the Labour party. That is if you want to be able to stop struggling with the idea that SpinningHugo may have some kind of point. What Blairism really did was shift politics to the right. In the long term it is a disasterous strategy. Do it again and it will happen again. This is an ideological ratchet.

The utter ruthlessness and dishonesty of the right should never be underestimated.

I really did feel well disposed to you all (well most of you) and still wish you the best. Goodbye.

Hi ylwnlm,

Forgive me, I'm a little confused. I tend to be in and out of here somewhat depending on what is going on in my life. I see that you joined in November last year so presumably if you've been reading, you have an idea of where people stand? And if you haven't been, well then you can't really judge on one day's comments can you?

Could you please point me to the interview and/or transcript you are referring to as I seem to have missed it?

I agree with you that Blairism shifted politics to the right for what my agreement may be worth. Or maybe it would be fairer to say Thatcher shifted politics to the right, and Blair did nothing to counteract that.

[LadyCentauria]

Is this the first to discover that profit making in the postal delivery service is not as simple as it may have looked....

Private postal business Whistl - formerly known as TNT - has suspended its door-to-door delivery service in London, Liverpool and Manchester and is consulting 2,000 workers on redundancy.

The move follows a decision last month by potential investment partner LDC not to fund its expansion plans.

Whistl will continue to provide a service, but will revert back to using the Royal Mail for the "final mile".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32686828

Apols for my absence through Monday but had a bad day.

Regarding this post: Whistl delivered the 'final push' piece of Labour election literature to my area on Friday. Wonder how long ago they knew they'd be stopping the 'final mile' service here in London and the other major cities in England and holding redundancy talks? Doesn't happen overnight...