Tuesday 12th May 2015

Post by **refitman** » Tue 12 May, 2015 7:13 am

Morning all.

Swarthlander · Post by **Swarthlander** » Tue 12 May, 2015 7:45 am

Good morning.

I see rustychicken (or maybe - "he who shouldn't be named") can't stay away. I suggest to Admin that you allow his account to remain open. His posts show, in detail, his sociopathic difficulties and are a fine example of what we have to organise against.

The last few days on FTN have shown that this community (I'm trying to not get too sycophantic) is and can be a force for good. It is a shining shield against the utter drivel that comes from the general MSM.

I hope we can do something with Robert's idea of a co-ordinated blog/twitter, even a small(ish) voice can make a difference.

Now I've got that of my chest I have to go and shovel chicken shit. The little buggers are dirty sods.

Read you later.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Tue 12 May, 2015 7:50 am

Morning Dan, morning all.

Interesting piece Over There by Tristram Hunt.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... stram-hunt

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:03 am

Morning.

If anyone sees anything from YouGov in the media, with results on the question 'Do you regret voting the way you did' please can you post them.

It was one of the questions that was asked when I did a YouGov survey in the last few days, and it will be fascinating to find out how people feel.

Am not being lazy, just that gardening beckons.
One thing the Tories can't have influence over is my plants and the wildlife here.
If TinyClanger's reading, we have a pair of pied wagtails in our new nest box. Very exciting as we don't see them here often, and hopefully we'll get some real Happy Chickies.

Also, good to see some of that wonderful FTN humour appearing again in last night's posts.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:20 am

Morning all. Still catching up on all the posts I missed since falling asleep late on Sunday night.

Osborne claiming that he's going into the EU negotiations to 'improve Britain's relationship with Europe and to improve Europe.' Really?

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:24 am

A piece on why Gove's promise to scrap the Human Rights Act may not be as easy as he suggests.

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/may ... ens-speech

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:25 am

Good morning all.

Seems the chickietroll felt compelled to post on one of the other threads. It followed me around on CIF for a while on topics related to social security. I'm aware that TGS had a similar problem with another one.
I wonder - should we ban them, ignore them, or what? I'm inclined to think they'll be back under different names if we ban them; I'm not sure what the answer is. I could do without these morons, personally.

Anyway - the Spartacus Network have updated their research report into deaths and suicides of people subjected to the WCA. It can be found at www.centreforwelfarereform.org
It doesn't say much beyond listing and describing the deaths as reported by the press (with links) but that has the effect of showing very starkly the effects of this inhumane system.

This issue, as with so many others in various areas of government, is one that this new Tory government will do nothing to address beyond making matters worse - for the WCA, I am expecting Maximus to be no better than Atos.
After all - with the notable exception of one of the original Spartacus networkers - the staff are the same, the centres are the same, the tests are the same.....and the only real difference is that Maximus are being paid more.

Since Maximus took over, there have been reports of people being called in for re-assessments without the usual procedure of sending the Form ESA50 first - this is the only opportunity before the WCA for a claimant to provide their own assessment of their capability and to proffer medical evidence to support their claim.
The ESA50 is supposedly what the HCP "scrutinises" in order to determine what form the WCA should take - at this point it is possible for the HCP to recommend a "paper" WCA for people who are seriously ill. If a face-to-face assessment is deemed necessary, it is usually a different HCP who conducts it, either at a centre or at home.
If Maximus is booking WCAs in their assessment centres but not sending out ESA50s beforehand, they are in breach of the procedure - unless they have been given carte blanche to do what they like.

The guidance for claimants has not changed - so if anyone here is facing a WCA or knows someone who is, I recommend that should they be given an appointment for a WCA before they have been issued with the ESA50, they should complain to their regional management team.

IDS and his ministers have claimed many times that the claimants are at fault in wrong decisions because they did not provide Atos with enough medical evidence. We know this is untrue - many people have sent in reams of evidence only to be told at the WCA appointment that the examining HCP hasn't seen it or doesn't think it's relevant.

Whether these reports indicate early teething problems for Maximus and the problem will settle down, or whether there is an instruction from DWP to its new contractor to find ways to make claimants' lives more difficult, is something we'll find out if it continues.
What we are not allowed to see is what Maximus has signed up to - as usual, we may not see exactly what Maximus' contractual obligations are. I'm under no illusions about this - if IDS can make matters worse, he will.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:28 am

mag 7.1 earthquake hits nepal felt in delhi (breaking news)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:30 am

I know Michael White cuts no mustard around here, but does he make a good point when he says 'defeated parties always prefer to cling to their comfort blanket'.

He's referring to the Lib Dems, or Liberals as Farron seems to be calling them now, choosing Farron over Lamb. But it is something Labour needs to be careful of in the coming months.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:33 am

I wonder - should we ban them, ignore them, or what? I'm inclined to think they'll be back under different names if we ban them; I'm not sure what the answer is. I could do without these morons, personally.

Personally I think we should ban them, for the simple reason that they aren't even very good at being trolls. It would be a kindness really.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:35 am

Morning all.

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 9m9 minutes ago
Unions will have to get backing of 50% of members before calling a strike - @sajidjavid @BBCr4today

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 10m10 minutes ago
Employers will be allowed to bring in agency workers during strikes - @sajidjavid @BBCr4today

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 11m11 minutes ago
Strikes in essential public services will be banned unless 40% of union members back them - @sajidjavid

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:35 am

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
I wonder - should we ban them, ignore them, or what? I'm inclined to think they'll be back under different names if we ban them; I'm not sure what the answer is. I could do without these morons, personally.
Personally I think we should ban them, for the simple reason that they aren't even very good at being trolls. It would be a kindness really.

& they never bring any cakes or snacks. Very poor form.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:40 am

yahyah wrote:I know Michael White cuts no mustard around here, but does he make a good point when he says 'defeated parties always prefer to cling to their comfort blanket'.

He's referring to the Lib Dems, or Liberals as Farron seems to be calling them now, choosing Farron over Lamb. But it is something Labour needs to be careful of in the coming months.

Morning yahyah. Labour needs to be careful of lots of things in the coming months. What do you think our comfort blanket is? I'm pretty sure it's probably very different for several groups ... and that's part of the problem.

TBH I think the Lib Dems are lucky to have Farron already there in waiting to rally around. I think he brings a sense to a lot of their disaffected members and voters that they know / hope they know what to expect from him re the direction of the party - and that will help them build momentum again. He / Farron is lucky that due to the mass cull of people from the 'top' of the party he is now the stand out candidate.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:43 am

I'm inclined to agree with Swarthlander regarding our resident troll. Obviously should we get infested that's entirely different. Just ignore him/them unless you really feel a need to come back, after all nothing like a witty put down to make you feel good. In moderation I don't think that feeding a troll, that only happens if you fight for the last word. Besides it has even been known to agree with one. Did I mention I was a dreamer?

Anyway not wishing to compound Swarthlander's efforts I've not brought corn today, however the joke may be on Dave. Time and again he has demanded a Big Society. May it come together and put him down.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:46 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
Swarthlander wrote:Good morning.

I see rustychicken (or maybe - "he who shouldn't be named") can't stay away. I suggest to Admin that you allow his account to remain open. His posts show, in detail, his sociopathic difficulties and are a fine example of what we have to organise against.

The last few days on FTN have shown that this community (I'm trying to not get too sycophantic) is and can be a force for good. It is a shining shield against the utter drivel that comes from the general MSM.

I hope we can do something with Robert's idea of a co-ordinated blog/twitter, even a small(ish) voice can make a difference.

Now I've got that of my chest I have to go and shovel chicken shit. The little buggers are dirty sods.

Read you later.
Morning. I agree - if recent experience shows anything, it's that we have to get organised, to get out there and into our communities. Interesting that the troll talked about 'conducting the orchestra' - he/she/it has made me realise that my energies have to be focussed.

It would be great if the blog could serve as something like a hub for ideas about community activism and involvement, and talking about examples of such, as well as ideas and views. The point is to take what we have on this forum and use it to make a difference.

This idea is a good one - and I think we should do it.

I've volunteered to do Tweeting for FTN but I suspect my post got lost in all the others yesterday....can't remember where I posted it!
I'd need to be shown how to do it and how to post links, as I am useless with IT.

For a blog - these are easy enough to set up, aren't they? Some of the longer reads here and some of the other stuff you good folks have written include things I haven't got round to yet, and I'm wondering if we're getting a bit overcrowded?
This is NOT a criticism - sometimes I don't have the time, or sometimes I'm a bit poorly....and I've never quite understood the Pub etc. (all of which is a reflection on me and not on the site, particularly) and I wonder how much traffic these other areas get.

I was thinking that we could have a sort of "official" FTN blog - not necessarily every day - linked to this place, with one of our experts doing a piece which we Tweet a link to. Say - Roger or Tubby on education, Robert on health; maybe OhSo doing one of her lists of all the U-turns or whatever; one of our Greens doing something on policy; JA writing on US-style healthcare.

Blogs like the Void's or Mike Sivier's get a lot of traffic - often they are very good indeed, but on occasion they can be a bit stroppy (less so with Mike's, to be fair). The Squawkbox was good, but it seems Steve isn't blogging much these days.
It would be good to have something with a broad, but intelligent (and we ARE good on here) left-leaning discourse, open for comments, which looks at all aspects of our politics and as DHP so eloquently put it reaches out to more people.

Perhaps we could have a sort of FTN Diary - people who are doing community or local things could report their experience within a post on engagement, say; or if there's a big story on something particular, one of our expert people could write about it.

Ideas?

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:47 am

Seems the chickietroll felt compelled to post on one of the other threads. It followed me around on CIF for a while on topics related to social security. I'm aware that TGS had a similar problem with another one.
I wonder - should we ban them, ignore them, or what? I'm inclined to think they'll be back under different names if we ban them; I'm not sure what the answer is. I could do without these morons, personally.

Morning folks,
I would say ignore them, or deal with them. Even if they are just on a wind up, these trolls often reflect some of the views held by real people. As we've just seen, a sizeable portion of the public have questionable views, and we can't ban them all.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:53 am

LadyCentauria wrote:Morning all. Still catching up on all the posts I missed since falling asleep late on Sunday night.

Osborne claiming that he's going into the EU negotiations to 'improve Britain's relationship with Europe and to improve Europe.' Really?

You're not the only one to raise an eyebrow at this Lady C.

Nick Robinson ‏@bbcnickrobinson 2m2 minutes ago
Interesting language on EU from @George_Osborne : "We come with a very clear mandate to improve Britain’s relationship with...the EU"

Sounds like they're trying to go into the 'negotiations' without bitching about their EU partners beforehand ... and hinting at an underlying desire to be IN. How much of that stance is real, put on, or utter delusion is anyone's guess.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:55 am

Iain Martin ‏@iainmartin1 3m3 minutes ago
The Tories should be very careful on this BBC stuff. They risk looking like bad winners.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 12 May, 2015 8:57 am

Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE 28s29 seconds ago
FT first edition headline on ministerial reshuffle: "New identity for Grant Shapps."

Laughing stock everywhere.

Bit of an insult to international development IMO.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:00 am

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Morning Dan, morning all.

Interesting piece Over There by Tristram Hunt.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... stram-hunt

Good-morning, my friends.

Read through Hunty's article with my spouse now, just once. Our first impressions are positive.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:00 am

Do we have any good analysis about this election's polling data failure? I didn't trust the polls; I've said that before the election. However, I didn't realise we were being systematically lied to - 'margin of error is within standard deviation' my a**.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:03 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Iain Martin ‏@iainmartin1 3m3 minutes ago
The Tories should be very careful on this BBC stuff. They risk looking like bad winners.

Well quite.

Often their harshest critics were known Tories like Andrew Neil over that absurd 5,000 small-business owners where he slated it on WATO but by the time of the evening news it had become something that was legitimate and not at all risible nonsense.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:04 am

citizenJA wrote:Do we have any good analysis about this election's polling data failure? I didn't trust the polls; I've said that before the election. However, I didn't realise we were being systematically lied to - 'margin of error is within standard deviation' my a**.

The industry has set up an investigation.
Patrick Sturgis, Professor of Research Methodology and Director of the ESRC National Centre for Research Methods, is going to lead the the inquiry.
The rest of the panel to be announced in due course.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:11 am

yahyah wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
I wonder - should we ban them, ignore them, or what? I'm inclined to think they'll be back under different names if we ban them; I'm not sure what the answer is. I could do without these morons, personally.
Personally I think we should ban them, for the simple reason that they aren't even very good at being trolls. It would be a kindness really.

& they never bring any cakes or snacks. Very poor form.

"Where there is mettle, may we bring rust; where there is courage, may we bring chicken"

They're not entirely empty-handed, you know.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:12 am

David is feeling upset this morning, boys and girls, having just performed a most remarkable feat.

"Sam why does nobody love me?"
"I do, David."
"Yeah but I'm the best Prime Minister ever and they all hate me."
"They don't hate you, David, they're in awe of you."
"Thank you Sam, you're too kind."

Several minutes later, David wakes to the sound of banging and crashing outside.

"Patibulo regibus. Patibulo regibus."
"Is that you, Boris?"
"Verum quidem. Fancy a game of hangman?"

I never did study Latin or learn Italian for that matter, Maybe someone could advise.
Edit: layout.

Swarthlander · Post by **Swarthlander** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:15 am

@Grim
Just ignore the

May I suggest to Admin the the 'Left' thread is cleaned up. It's one of Ephies best and it's being soiled.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:19 am

Swarthlander wrote:@Grim
Just ignore the

May I suggest to Admin the the 'Left' thread is cleaned up. It's one of Ephies best and it's being soiled.

Also agreed, Swarthlander. I moseyed over last night.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:31 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE 28s29 seconds ago
FT first edition headline on ministerial reshuffle: "New identity for Grant Shapps."
Laughing stock everywhere.

Bit of an insult to international development IMO.

Have to admit I feel a little sorry for my MP, now she has Shapps in her department.

I heard Osborne live on Sky as he was arriving at the EU meeting and don't know whether or not to feel pleased that Nick Robinson seems to have been as surprised as me at what the man said. Pleased, probably.

Not entirely surprised that one of the topics up for discussion on Victoria Derbyshire's programme (BBC now) will be last night's episode of Benefits Street, which I didn't see.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:31 am

utopiandreams wrote:
Swarthlander wrote:@Grim
Just ignore the

May I suggest to Admin the the 'Left' thread is cleaned up. It's one of Ephies best and it's being soiled.

Also agreed, Swarthlander. I moseyed over last night.

The two trolls should be dumped and their addresses barred.

They add no value, they are simply trolls. I have no issue with opposing views but they should be genuine. LDV and The Guardian wouldn't have them neither should we.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:32 am

ephemerid wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Swarthlander wrote:Good morning.

I see rustychicken (or maybe - "he who shouldn't be named") can't stay away. I suggest to Admin that you allow his account to remain open. His posts show, in detail, his sociopathic difficulties and are a fine example of what we have to organise against.

The last few days on FTN have shown that this community (I'm trying to not get too sycophantic) is and can be a force for good. It is a shining shield against the utter drivel that comes from the general MSM.

I hope we can do something with Robert's idea of a co-ordinated blog/twitter, even a small(ish) voice can make a difference.

Now I've got that of my chest I have to go and shovel chicken shit. The little buggers are dirty sods.

Read you later.
Morning. I agree - if recent experience shows anything, it's that we have to get organised, to get out there and into our communities. Interesting that the troll talked about 'conducting the orchestra' - he/she/it has made me realise that my energies have to be focussed.

It would be great if the blog could serve as something like a hub for ideas about community activism and involvement, and talking about examples of such, as well as ideas and views. The point is to take what we have on this forum and use it to make a difference.

This idea is a good one - and I think we should do it.

I've volunteered to do Tweeting for FTN but I suspect my post got lost in all the others yesterday....can't remember where I posted it!
I'd need to be shown how to do it and how to post links, as I am useless with IT.

For a blog - these are easy enough to set up, aren't they? Some of the longer reads here and some of the other stuff you good folks have written include things I haven't got round to yet, and I'm wondering if we're getting a bit overcrowded?
This is NOT a criticism - sometimes I don't have the time, or sometimes I'm a bit poorly....and I've never quite understood the Pub etc. (all of which is a reflection on me and not on the site, particularly) and I wonder how much traffic these other areas get.

I was thinking that we could have a sort of "official" FTN blog - not necessarily every day - linked to this place, with one of our experts doing a piece which we Tweet a link to. Say - Roger or Tubby on education, Robert on health; maybe OhSo doing one of her lists of all the U-turns or whatever; one of our Greens doing something on policy; JA writing on US-style healthcare.

Blogs like the Void's or Mike Sivier's get a lot of traffic - often they are very good indeed, but on occasion they can be a bit stroppy (less so with Mike's, to be fair). The Squawkbox was good, but it seems Steve isn't blogging much these days.
It would be good to have something with a broad, but intelligent (and we ARE good on here) left-leaning discourse, open for comments, which looks at all aspects of our politics and as DHP so eloquently put it reaches out to more people.

Perhaps we could have a sort of FTN Diary - people who are doing community or local things could report their experience within a post on engagement, say; or if there's a big story on something particular, one of our expert people could write about it.

Ideas?

I like the FTN Diary idea, Ephemerid. I was out yesterday & since I walk or use public transportation, I often talk with people I don't know. People want to be included, listened to, taken seriously, understood & feel as though they've got a vested interest in ah...society. There it is. Some of the people I talked with yesterday voted UKIP because they thought that party would represent them & make a tangible difference in their daily life. It wasn't clear what exactly they were being promised or thought they'd get.

I hadn't looked at the numbers for Stoke-on-Trent Central for myself until this morning. I'd asked my partner to just tell me, tell me, did Labour held the seat?! Yes, citizenJA, Hunty increased his majority from 5,566 (39%) in 2010 to 12,220 in 2015 - the closest anyone got to that majority was UKIP at 7,041 votes, Tories came third at 7,008.

49.9% voter turnout.

I don't like that low voter turn out at all.

Interestingly, I didn't encounter UKIP campaigners at all. I did see & talk with Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition (TUSC) party campaigners.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:37 am

As we were talking about community stuff and getting involved on a local level, this is some of what Show and I are doing.

We have a community hospital called Bronllys here in a beautiful setting in the Brecon Beacons National Park. Its' NHS functions are being run down, and there are moves afoot for various private developments etc. over time.
Bronllys offers various outpatient clinics, physio, and elderly care/stroke rehab/convalescence; the idea seems to be to wind all this down and sell off the estate - and the estate is absolutely huge, with some sold off already.

Some good people have got together and want to form a CIC to save it - the idea is to have a wellbeing park, with some of the existing health care to continue with NHS input; to extend rehab services to include recovery from acute mental illness and substance misuse; to have some development of private homes on leasehold, affordable co-owned homes, rental properties, and possibly some hostel-type accommodation for people who are recovering who might be able to rent a home there in time. The ideas also include using some of the land to grow food, with the aim of being better than self-sufficient for people on site but also to be able to market some produce. The people who kicked this off have already been working with the Welsh government and the NHS - the hope is that the group might stall any more sell-offs until their proposals are looked at in more detail.

The reason why I'm telling you all this is to show how local opposition to something can be turned into something positive. Protesting about the closure and sell-off is nothing more than venting if there is no proposal for something different to back it up.
As with many of these things, simply protesting won't change anything - the healthcare landscape has changed as it inevitably does; and the need in this case is not pouring more money into a service that is past its sell-by date, but to keep the good parts that still work and add whatever else can help to sustain it and bring more of the community into supporting it. Better that than another private estate.

This sort of stuff is going on all over the place. People are setting up all sorts of groups and co-ops but we don't hear much about them.
I'm thinking that if FTN could maybe bring things like this to the site/blog/whatever we decide, people who visit the site could see that there is hope and there is action and it is possible to get things done in a spirit of community co-operation and engagement.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:42 am

A crazy idea (imo) coming from Scottish Labour:

FORMER Scottish Labour leadership contender Neil Findlay has said that the party in Scotland should be fully independent from Labour at UK level to allow it to have different position on key issues such as opposition to Trident.
Mr Findlay made the call for an independent Scottish Labour Party, as he also said that calls by figures such as former cabinet minister Lord Mandelson to move back to New Labour-style policies would “go down like a bucket of vomit” north of the Border.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3769989

How could that work if Labour had power in Westminster? No Scottish ministers, because they're in a different party? Coalition with the Scottish party?

The SNP doesn't allow dissent of any kind within the party. Isn't the Labour Party better than that?

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:46 am

Swarthlander wrote:@Grim
Just ignore the

May I suggest to Admin the the 'Left' thread is cleaned up. It's one of Ephies best and it's being soiled.

Could ftn have a kind of 'troll pit',
similar to the pub, or maybe part of the pub,
like a 'pub bore' thread,
And move/archive offending posts there.
Could be useful a evidence, if someone continues stalking behaviour, but also some of the views he so eloquently makes, should be addressable, and are a good reminder of what we face.
(& Gd.Morning)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:48 am

yahyah wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Do we have any good analysis about this election's polling data failure? I didn't trust the polls; I've said that before the election. However, I didn't realise we were being systematically lied to - 'margin of error is within standard deviation' my a**.

The industry has set up an investigation.
Patrick Sturgis, Professor of Research Methodology and Director of the ESRC National Centre for Research Methods, is going to lead the the inquiry.
The rest of the panel to be announced in due course.

Thank you, Yahyah. How are you? I've read your posts & value your being here. I don't think I've said that to you recently & I apologise for the oversight. You're still my friend, right? I've no problem writing that displaying less emotional maturity than an adolescent. I'd like a thank you button. In the meantime, I send you this.

Everyone gets an owl.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:51 am

Eric_WLothian wrote:A crazy idea (imo) coming from Scottish Labour:

FORMER Scottish Labour leadership contender Neil Findlay has said that the party in Scotland should be fully independent from Labour at UK level to allow it to have different position on key issues such as opposition to Trident.
Mr Findlay made the call for an independent Scottish Labour Party, as he also said that calls by figures such as former cabinet minister Lord Mandelson to move back to New Labour-style policies would “go down like a bucket of vomit” north of the Border.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3769989
How could that work if Labour had power in Westminster? No Scottish ministers, because they're in a different party? Coalition with the Scottish party?

The SNP doesn't allow dissent of any kind within the party. Isn't the Labour Party better than that?

I'm real uncomfortable with that too. Yes, the Labour party has made its position clear - unity of the countries making up the UK. Right? Does Scottish Labour have a different rule book?

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:51 am

Re. the trolls -

I am finding myself in agreement with TE. We shouldn't put up with it.

I daresay they'd come back under new names, but we are trying to have sensible discussions here and the whole point of FTN was to get away from the nesting - and one the advantages for me has been (despite our occasional spats) that we are relatively free of trolling.

CIF gets worse by the day - I was expecting plenty of Tory triumphalism, but the IDS thread (5,000-plus comments on it now) is full of really nasty people, many of them new, extolling the virtues of IDS with zero comprehension of how social security actually works.

I still post there occasionally - but the past few days have been so vile I haven't bothered. Anything posted there gets lost in the din.

I wonder if we should have a vote on this?

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:53 am

Current discussion on Victoria Derbyshire prog is Human Rights Act. Jan Sutton explaining how she used the HRA to increase her care package by a factor of three which has 'given her a life.' She now has help around so that she can be up during the day, whereas, before, she was just being helped to the loo and dressed then had no option but to go straight back to bed and then lie in her own mess until the evening 15-20 minute visit. Well worth watching on catch-up, if you're not watching it. Although you might not want to see Peter Bone...

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:55 am

tinybgoat wrote:
Swarthlander wrote:@Grim
Just ignore the

May I suggest to Admin the the 'Left' thread is cleaned up. It's one of Ephies best and it's being soiled.

Could ftn have a kind of 'troll pit',
similar to the pub, or maybe part of the pub,
like a 'pub bore' thread,
And move/archive offending posts there.
Could be useful a evidence, if someone continues stalking behaviour, but also some of the views he so eloquently makes, should be addressable, and are a good reminder of what we face.
(& Gd.Morning)

Now that is what I call a plan. Excellent idea.

We can get them out of our hair but keep the proof as expressed.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:56 am

Ephemerid
This sort of stuff is going on all over the place. People are setting up all sorts of groups and co-ops but we don't hear much about them. I'm thinking that if FTN could maybe bring things like this to the site/blog/whatever we decide, people who visit the site could see that there is hope and there is action and it is possible to get things done in a spirit of community co-operation and engagement.

Wind turbines & solar panels on the south facing areas. Do you think Pickles would allow it? Apologies, I don't know if that person has been given a new assignment.

Community building is difficult work but it's the way.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 12 May, 2015 9:58 am

ephemerid wrote:Re. the trolls -

I am finding myself in agreement with TE. We shouldn't put up with it.

I daresay they'd come back under new names, but we are trying to have sensible discussions here and the whole point of FTN was to get away from the nesting - and one the advantages for me has been (despite our occasional spats) that we are relatively free of trolling.

CIF gets worse by the day - I was expecting plenty of Tory triumphalism, but the IDS thread (5,000-plus comments on it now) is full of really nasty people, many of them new, extolling the virtues of IDS with zero comprehension of how social security actually works.

I still post there occasionally - but the past few days have been so vile I haven't bothered. Anything posted there gets lost in the din.

I wonder if we should have a vote on this?

Sounds good to me, Ephemerid.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 12 May, 2015 10:01 am

Dominic Cummings has written a long piece on the complications of Gove getting rid of the HRA.

On the Referendum #1: Gove and the Human Rights Act – cool yer boots, man

https://dominiccummings.wordpress.com/2 ... boots-man/

Too long to quote from but an interesting read.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 12 May, 2015 10:03 am

ephemerid wrote:Re. the trolls -

I am finding myself in agreement with TE. We shouldn't put up with it.

I daresay they'd come back under new names, but we are trying to have sensible discussions here and the whole point of FTN was to get away from the nesting - and one the advantages for me has been (despite our occasional spats) that we are relatively free of trolling.

CIF gets worse by the day - I was expecting plenty of Tory triumphalism, but the IDS thread (5,000-plus comments on it now) is full of really nasty people, many of them new, extolling the virtues of IDS with zero comprehension of how social security actually works.

I still post there occasionally - but the past few days have been so vile I haven't bothered. Anything posted there gets lost in the din.

I wonder if we should have a vote on this?

I think tinygoat idea in the linked post below is best, move them to the pub bore thread and they are there for evidence, or laughing at, if ever needed.
http://flythenest.org/viewtopic.php?p=52520#p52520

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 12 May, 2015 10:04 am

RobertSnozers
I'm also sorry to say that much of the media cant about Ed had more of an effect that we thought it did. I've heard several supposedly intelligent people over the last week declaring 'of course Ed didn't win, he was weird/stabbed his brother in the back'. We thought the power of Murdoch was ebbing away. It may be, but it's still potent.

I don't doubt it. I don't know how to make lies stop.

Swarthlander · Post by **Swarthlander** » Tue 12 May, 2015 10:06 am

ephemerid wrote:
I wonder if we should have a vote on this?

I've created a poll, hope folk don't mind.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 12 May, 2015 10:08 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
ephemerid wrote:Good morning all.

Seems the chickietroll felt compelled to post on one of the other threads. It followed me around on CIF for a while on topics related to social security. I'm aware that TGS had a similar problem with another one.
I wonder - should we ban them, ignore them, or what? I'm inclined to think they'll be back under different names if we ban them; I'm not sure what the answer is. I could do without these morons, personally.
1) Draw strength from them. They're trying to stop us do what we do. On a fairly fundamental level they are threatened by us. As Swarthlander says, it shows what we're up against.

2) Ignore. Do not respond. Ever. It's what they want. Their only sad, bitter pleasure in life is knowing that they've riled someone. Don't give them the satisfaction. It's like dealing with a child - ignore bad behaviour and reward good.

The experts opinion on trolls such as we are getting, is that they have a mental illness. Given that they probably don't realise it and we don't know exactly who they are so they could be offered help, it's best we just leave them alone.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 12 May, 2015 10:08 am

Trolls: maybe TechnicalEphemera and ephemerid are right, they shouldn't be tolerated. As ephe says the G these days is infested with them, something I recall many of us suggesting would happen with nesting. I don't do Twitter but that's what I expect there. Let's be rid, but welcome respectfully expressed views whether or not we agree. Let this be a conversation place. May I also ask that we do not get offended.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 12 May, 2015 10:10 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:Morning all.

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 9m9 minutes ago
Unions will have to get backing of 50% of members before calling a strike - @sajidjavid @BBCr4today

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 10m10 minutes ago
Employers will be allowed to bring in agency workers during strikes - @sajidjavid @BBCr4today

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 11m11 minutes ago
Strikes in essential public services will be banned unless 40% of union members back them - @sajidjavid

I see.
No. To pass these laws is contemptible.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 12 May, 2015 10:13 am

citizenJA wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:Morning all.

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 9m9 minutes ago
Unions will have to get backing of 50% of members before calling a strike - @sajidjavid @BBCr4today

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 10m10 minutes ago
Employers will be allowed to bring in agency workers during strikes - @sajidjavid @BBCr4today

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 11m11 minutes ago
Strikes in essential public services will be banned unless 40% of union members back them - @sajidjavid
I see.
No. To pass these laws is contemptible.

What percentage of potential voters actually voted?
What percentage of voters voted Conservative?

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Tue 12 May, 2015 10:16 am

Thanks for the owl, cJA!

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 12 May, 2015 10:18 am

ephemerid wrote:Re. the trolls -

I am finding myself in agreement with TE. We shouldn't put up with it.

I daresay they'd come back under new names, but we are trying to have sensible discussions here and the whole point of FTN was to get away from the nesting - and one the advantages for me has been (despite our occasional spats) that we are relatively free of trolling.

CIF gets worse by the day - I was expecting plenty of Tory triumphalism, but the IDS thread (5,000-plus comments on it now) is full of really nasty people, many of them new, extolling the virtues of IDS with zero comprehension of how social security actually works.

I still post there occasionally - but the past few days have been so vile I haven't bothered. Anything posted there gets lost in the din.

I wonder if we should have a vote on this?

I'm easy with whatever other people prefer. I simply don't read them (which they make extra easy by being very long-winded) but I don't have strong views against deleting and blocking if others prefer.