Wednesday 13th May

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 13 May, 2015 6:46 am

Morning all.

Anecdotally again, when asking people why they voted Tory they've said SNP and Labour together scared them.

When asked which Tory policies they thought were good and worth voting for there's a deafening silence.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 13 May, 2015 7:37 am

Good morning, Stephen - morning all.

Welcome to 1984. The Orwellian nightmare commences......

TCC (That C**t Cameron) is to announce his counter terrorism plans. He has apparently re-defined the word "harmful" to suit them.

Thus - "The definition of harmful is to include a risk of public disorder, a risk of harassment, alarm, or distress, or creating a threat to the functioning of democracy".
This new definition is sufficiently non-definitive that it could easily be interpreted by TCC to cover anything that anyone might be alarmed or distressed by. Anything.

A march, a demonstration, a gathering of people protesting, a sit-in, a picket.... anything that someone decides is a bit alarming will no longer be allowed. It would appear that a bunch of people exercising their democratic right to protest and make a bit of noise is "harmful".

If a strike or a demonstration or some other form of dissent could be considered likely to carry a risk of public disorder, it is "harmful".
Your dissent doesn't actually have to cause public disorder, it simply has to be decided by the authorities that it might.

So that lovely little woman who stands outside Ashton-Under-Lyne jobcentre every Thursday, the flagship Universal Credit JCP, protesting against the sanctions imposed on ill people and pregnant women, could be deemed "harmful".
Having already had a "meeting" with police officers and JCP staff (who allege that Charlotte and her friends sometimes stand in the doorway and might have taken photographs) the police have confirmed that she has a right to peaceful protest. For now.

There are hundreds of little protests like this all over the UK. Anti-austerity groups, anti-workfare groups, disability campaigners, protests against the WCA and those who conduct them, people refusing to leave their homes and fighting against plans to flog them off, people having their say - these things have been part of our rights to protest peacefully for a very long time. It is part of our democracy.

TCC can pretend this is about curbing extremism, he can pretend this is aimed at preventing another Lee Rigby - but he will not be able to explain how stopping Occupy from shouting a bit outside a bank, or Boycott waving placards outside Holland&Barrett, could have prevented the death of Lee Rigby which was perpetrated by one individual who was known to our security services as an extremist but dubbed harmless.

TCC and his MPs will get this through somehow, and following that May will bring in her snoopers' charter. In the name of democracy.
So if you fancy joining a protest or having a little demo, if you join a sit-in or a picket line, do it now.
You might not get a chance to do it again - that's democracy, that is,

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 13 May, 2015 7:41 am

Tessa Jowell ‏@TessaJowell 9m9 minutes ago
To deliver the change that London needs, we need to build a movement. We're launching next week... join us:
https://cards.twitter.com/cards/ty65s/jeko" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

To deliver the change that rUK needs, we need to build a movement. When are you launching that?

Morning all.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 13 May, 2015 7:51 am

re Ephemerid's post

I saw a tweet yesterday from Julia Hartley-Brewer, of all people, saying that the Tories have already declared a war on 4 fronts - in just a couple of days.

Julia Hartley-Brewer @JuliaHB1 · 9h 9 hours ago
The new Tory govt seems to be at war with an awful lot of people/institutions. Fighting on four fronts already.

Terror / Civil Liberties - big beefed up Snoopers Charter ant civil liberties charter on the way. Scrapping HRA.
Unions - new strike laws / anti workers law on the way
EU - negotiations ? (& stripping out the HRA ain't going to help here surely?)
BBC - probably going to lose their automatic licence fee / new charter regs to keep them in line.

All helpful to suppressing opposition to their continued dominance in future election campaigns - as was the Gagging law in this one just gone.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 13 May, 2015 7:52 am

Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn 3m3 minutes ago
EXCL: Andy Burnham backed by nearly a quarter of Labour MPs as leader candidate of the left, reveals @schofieldkevin http://sunpl.us/601075uq" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 13 May, 2015 7:59 am

I think this series of tweets / articles need to be shown together:

Left Foot Forward ‏@LeftFootFwd May 11
Michael Gove supported the death penalty. Now he’s minister for justice http://leftfootforward.org/2015/05/mich ... r-justice/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Grahame Morris retweeted
Left Foot Forward ‏@LeftFootFwd 16h16 hours ago
He voted against benefit exceptions for cancer patients: meet the minister for disabled people http://leftfootforward.org/2015/05/meet/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Grahame Morris retweeted
Left Foot Forward ‏@LeftFootFwd 11h11 hours ago
‘No legitimate reason’ for same-sex marriage: meet the new equalities minister. http://leftfootforward.org/2015/05/no-l ... -minister/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Grahame Morris retweeted
Left Foot Forward ‏@LeftFootFwd 10h10 hours ago
He thinks feminists are ‘obnoxious bigots': meet the new justice minister http://leftfootforward.org/2015/05/he-t ... -minister/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 13 May, 2015 8:07 am

RobertSnozers wrote:Morning.

That's scary ephe - what's the source?

The Guardian - front page - quotes from a speech TCC will give today.

It gets scarier -
"For too long, we've been a passively tolerant society, saying to citizens 'As long as you obey the law, we'll leave you alone'"
This suggests that even if you do "obey the law" you won't necessarily be left alone.

Anything that is deemed "a threat to the functioning of democracy" is to be unlawful. Anything.

I would now like to suggest that TCC has become redundant. Marvellous though it is.

May I offer the following - TCBBAC. That C**t Big Brother Adolf Cameron. Unwieldy, I know. Sums him up, though.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 13 May, 2015 8:10 am

ephemerid wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:Morning.

That's scary ephe - what's the source?
The Guardian - front page - quotes from a speech TCC will give today.

It gets scarier -
"For too long, we've been a passively tolerant society, saying to citizens 'As long as you obey the law, we'll leave you alone'"
This suggests that even if you do "obey the law" you won't necessarily be left alone.

Anything that is deemed "a threat to the functioning of democracy" is to be unlawful. Anything.

I would now like to suggest that TCC has become redundant. Marvellous though it is.

May I offer the following - TCBBAC. That C**t Big Brother Adolf Cameron. Unwieldy, I know. Sums him up, though.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... id-cameron

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 13 May, 2015 8:22 am

Vince Cable rules out standing as MP again
Former business secretary says ‘politics of fear’ was behind Tory success and says he plans to write another book
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... s-mp-again" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“I am naturally very disappointed and not specifically for myself because most of my parliamentary colleagues were defeated as well,” he said.

“The fundamental reason for that was a politics of fear – people were told in this endless barrage of target mail and telephone calls that if they didn’t vote Conservative, we were going to get Ed Miliband and the SNP. Large numbers of people were persuaded by that message, that is the crux of it.”

Saw yesterday that it's suggested he might go to the Lords along with Laws and McVey ...

I wonder how many phone calls were made to people in the final weeks of the campaign putting that SNP / Labour nightmare scenario?

Swarthlander · Post by **Swarthlander** » Wed 13 May, 2015 8:26 am

Good morning.

For the bird watchers and in my best Brian Blessed voice - The Swallows Have ARRIVED!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 13 May, 2015 8:32 am

Swarthlander wrote:Good morning.

For the bird watchers and in my best Brian Blessed voice - The Swallows Have ARRIVED!

& Not long before the swifts come too.

& Thanks to Chris Dean for their post last night, the last line about bluebells, beauty & healing brought tears to my eyes.

We have to take care of ourselves, it will be a long five years.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 13 May, 2015 8:35 am

Just asked Mr Riots if there is anything I should pick up in town if I'm passing through today.

Short pause. Answer, 'You could rob a bank'.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 13 May, 2015 8:40 am

A more positive news story:

The Welsh government is providing an extra £3m for third sector mental health projects.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/healt ... th-9242949" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 13 May, 2015 8:59 am

A friend of the Home Secretary stated that she doesn’t rate David Cameron. Before the election David announced his days were numbered and would not serve a third term. Now he is counting on his first 100 days but has warned Theresa that he is going to wipe all trace of her from the internet; the things he'd Googled about her.

Theresa doesn't want censorship but prefers to know everything that is going on. Having tapped into the resources of her security friends, it is understood she has irrefutable evidence of why Cameron kept calling Miliband a redhead. It wasn't a mist that descended rather an infatuation. LOL.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 13 May, 2015 9:02 am

Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen 11h11 hours ago
New post: Liz Kendall for Prime Minister http://wp.me/p1Vf1s-1Hf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 13 May, 2015 9:09 am

yahyah wrote:A more positive news story:

The Welsh government is providing an extra £3m for third sector mental health projects.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/healt ... th-9242949" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is what keeping promises is all about. Carwyn said he'd do it, and it is being done.

TCBBAC could learn a thing or several, if he dared to venture across The Death Border to a place where Labour delivers - his last little tripette over here was to support the seriously grisly new MP for Brecon&Radnor at a farm near us and have photo-opps in a suspiciously tidy farmyard with no junk or Welsh Border Collies or machinery or people in it.

Imagine his surprise to find that people are still actually alive on this side of The Death Border. His candidate excluded, obviously.

RR - while you rob the bank (are you watching, TCBBAC? I might be causing the potential for alarmingness) would you pick up a few gold bricks for me? I need some suitably rich-looking projectiles to fling at Fester McVile if she is elevated to the Lords. Ta.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 13 May, 2015 9:16 am

@RR2 - if you get nabbed, am sure OhSo would bake you a cake with a file in it.

@Ephie. Yep, we are lucky with Carwyn.

What really annoyed me watching one of the Welsh debates was someone in the audience angrily saying Wales only spent £1m on mental health.
Complete cajones of course, the Welsh NHS spends well over a £1bn.
But nobody, the presenter, Wood, Bortolotti or Owen Smith corrected it.
So millions of people probably parrot that lie about the Welsh NHS to others.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 13 May, 2015 9:18 am

ephemerid wrote:Thus - "The definition of harmful is to include a risk of public disorder, a risk of harassment, alarm, or distress, or creating a threat to the functioning of democracy".

Jeez, Paul Dacre, Rupert Murdoch, Louise Mensch and Katie Hopkins are in serious trouble then. TCC will have to write in special clauses to exclude them I guess.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 13 May, 2015 9:21 am

ephemerid wrote:
RR - while you rob the bank (are you watching, TCBBAC? I might be causing the potential for alarmingness) would you pick up a few gold bricks for me? I need some suitably rich-looking projectiles to fling at Fester McVile if she is elevated to the Lords. Ta.

Righty ho. (Just realised how that sounds

- I only meant it to sound like a cheery acceptance, a let's get on with it.)

It might have to be tomorrow though. AAW had neglected cleaning behind her fridge for some time. I've got to catch up with laundry - I've got scads of campaign trousers and socks to get clean. Got to have decent trews on for a daylight robbery.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 13 May, 2015 9:29 am

utopiandreams wrote:A friend of the Home Secretary stated that she doesn’t rate David Cameron. Before the election David announced his days were numbered and would not serve a third term. Now he is counting on his first 100 days but has warned Theresa that he is going to wipe all trace of her from the internet; the things he'd Googled about her.

Theresa doesn't want censorship but prefers to know everything that is going on. Having tapped into the resources of her security friends, it is understood she has irrefutable evidence of why Cameron kept calling Miliband a redhead. It wasn't a mist that descended rather an infatuation. LOL.

This post could be interpreted as being potentially alarming to the little girl who lives down the lane and the sweet fluffy kittens and the fairies at the bottom of the garden.

As the potential alarmees are the sort of things which make our country great and are the foundation of our democracy, your post will be rewritten by the authorities, viz:

"The friend of the Home Secretary who alarmed people by inferring that Her Highness Top Secretary of All We Hold Dear opined that she did not rate Sir King God Saint David of Cameron has been taken into custody. This is not alarming.
Anything Sir King God Saint David of Cameron may or may not have said while being passionate about All We Hold Dear in order to run our democracy will be obliterated from the interweb and the minds of dissenters. This is not alarming either.
Her Highness Top Secretary of All We Hold Dear has friends with guns; and information which is alarming will be un-allowed as a matter of urgency, and any alarming person speaking alarmingly will be shot. This is not alarming and will prevent alarm.
The New Democratic Anti-Alarming Law will apply to anyone who has or supports anything Red, especially people whose name is Ed; this will prevent Red Alarms all over the UK and will become a Thing We Hold Dear. This is totally un-alarming"

Dear Mr/Ms UtopianDreams,
It has come to the attention of the authorities that you have been found guilty of alarming people by telling little jokes.
You are now under house arrest and are required to await sentence. There is no appeal against whatever it is.
Thank you.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Wed 13 May, 2015 9:29 am

Just to help me clarify things, when Ed proffered his resignation who accepted it? Somebody said that LP regs require an acceptance, and it has to come from the national executive. I want to be able to squash this one, false hope is unkind.

Ephemerid, that's scary, but not unexpected. But I can't see people keeping silent.

One of the things I thought FTN DID/does best is provide a daily snapshot of changes and responses to change. I'm not sure whether it is unique like that, probably not, but it's the only site I know like it. I'm still not following the main media, TCCs smug face is too much to cope with, and a sickening piece on how he is enjoying watching labour and its leadership search hasn't encouraged me to want to.

There are people out in cyberspace with mental health issues, fragile people who haven't slept since election night, they went to bed then and woke up to a nightmare, and they are distressed and some with no support. It's hard to deal with tbh, you know the edicts are coming in that fear ir running high, and really every night I've had to point the right direction, make soothing noises, and hope they'll be ok. I guess most will, but worry because some really are so fragile and what if they don't have the credit for Samaritans or the busfare to get to their CPN, when an edict really affects them.

In the meantime I'm preparing for a tent in Hull. The downsized home isn't going to happen, I'd be in arrears before I moved in. It'll save on a wet room.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 13 May, 2015 9:36 am

seeingclearly -

I've been keeping away from the MSM most of the time - just popping in now and then to see if the threatened cuts have been sorted out.

You are quite right about the fragile people. There are so many - the ones who have the ability to seek contact on the net are probably the tip of the iceberg. I'm worried for them and all the others, and I have every expectation that we will see more untoward deaths and suicides.

Re. the tent in Hull - if it comes to that, pitch it outside A&E. That way you'll have neighbours.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 13 May, 2015 9:45 am

Six reasons you don't want to be George Osborne right now

http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/ ... -right-now" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'd take issue with them on this though

every hour worked in the UK produces 29% less than every hour worked in Germany. The result is that scope for real pay increases is very limited; it is easier for firms to increase pay when productivity is rising, since they can make the payment out of the productivity gain. Investment should secure productivity gains, but investment fell at the end of last year.

This is chicken & egg stuff to me, productivity is low because people are cheap. Why invest when you can just employ more? TCC loves it too.

Tonibel · Post by **Tonibel** » Wed 13 May, 2015 9:51 am

ephemerid wrote:Good morning, Stephen - morning all.

Welcome to 1984. The Orwellian nightmare commences......

TCC (That C**t Cameron) is to announce his counter terrorism plans. He has apparently re-defined the word "harmful" to suit them.

Thus - "The definition of harmful is to include a risk of public disorder, a risk of harassment, alarm, or distress, or creating a threat to the functioning of democracy".
This new definition is sufficiently non-definitive that it could easily be interpreted by TCC to cover anything that anyone might be alarmed or distressed by. Anything.

A march, a demonstration, a gathering of people protesting, a sit-in, a picket.... anything that someone decides is a bit alarming will no longer be allowed. It would appear that a bunch of people exercising their democratic right to protest and make a bit of noise is "harmful"

If a strike or a demonstration or some other form of dissent could be considered likely to carry a risk of public disorder, it is "harmful".
Your dissent doesn't actually have to cause public disorder, it simply has to be decided by the authorities that it might.

So that lovely little woman who stands outside Ashton-Under-Lyne jobcentre every Thursday, the flagship Universal Credit JCP, protesting against the sanctions imposed on ill people and pregnant women, could be deemed "harmful".
Having already had a "meeting" with police officers and JCP staff (who allege that Charlotte and her friends sometimes stand in the doorway and might have taken photographs) the police have confirmed that she has a right to peaceful protest. For now.

There are hundreds of little protests like this all over the UK. Anti-austerity groups, anti-workfare groups, disability campaigners, protests against the WCA and those who conduct them, people refusing to leave their homes and fighting against plans to flog them off, people having their say - these things have been part of our rights to protest peacefully for a very long time. It is part of our democracy.

TCC can pretend this is about curbing extremism, he can pretend this is aimed at preventing another Lee Rigby - but he will not be able to explain how stopping Occupy from shouting a bit outside a bank, or Boycott waving placards outside Holland&Barrett, could have prevented the death of Lee Rigby which was perpetrated by one individual who was known to our security services as an extremist but dubbed harmless.

TCC and his MPs will get this through somehow, and following that May will bring in her snoopers' charter. In the name of democracy.
So if you fancy joining a protest or having a little demo, if you join a sit-in or a picket line, do it now.
You might not get a chance to do it again - that's democracy, that is,

Thanks Ephe. With more cuts to come to police and military, who is going to enforce this (and use the water cannon)?

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 13 May, 2015 9:57 am

There was talk on here of the United Nations. An important agency of the UN is the International Labour Organization, originally formed under the auspices of the League of Nations; 185 of the 193 UN member states are members of the ILO, including the United Kingdom. Many of the conventions adopted by the ILO are enshrined in both the UNHCR and European Convention on Human Rights; so many of these ideas being proposed by TCC and his merry crew could well put us on a collision course with the UN.

The other thing being talked about here last night was proto-fascism; I'm beginning to wonder if there is anything "proto-" about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... ganization" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_In ... onventions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tonibel · Post by **Tonibel** » Wed 13 May, 2015 10:03 am

Ephe (above)
"Anything that is Deemed as a "threat to the functioning of democracy" is to be seen as unlawful. Anything"
That's put paid to Murdoch then!

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Wed 13 May, 2015 10:07 am

Here's a petition to oppose scrapping the Human Rights Act.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/ ... ket=blast2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As regards fascism : they want to effectively ban trade unions, but they can't because of our international commitments (already in breach of the ILO since the 1980s) can't be entirely dropped without becoming a pariah state. So they do it bit by bit to make sure unions cannot operate effectively at all. It's crypto-fascism, in that they are not brave enough (yet) to come out and say what they really want - to ban trade unions and kill worker rights.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Wed 13 May, 2015 10:11 am

Urgent message to all FTNers :

If we are ever going to have a media that is honest and on our side, we must support what we currently have, which is not a blooming lot. The Morning Star is our paper and we should all be buying and supporting it.

It is critical of Labour from the left, but is one of the few forums we have that is supported by the trade union movement and is actively pressing for progressive advance in society. It has a broad range of left voices and healthy debate in its pages. It is owned by its readers, not the Communist party, and while it supports the policy objectives of Britain's Road to Socialism, it is not blinkered and hidebound.

Please start buying and supporting it, as well as the party of your choice.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 13 May, 2015 10:29 am

Tonibel and TGS -

If there are questions like who will police all this stuff, and the idea that this is bordering on fascism, it's obvious to me what will happen.

Our police force takes - or took - pride in being unarmed and policing by consent. Whatever the views some people have on certain groups within the police being violent when policing demonstrations, etc. outside that they have done some wonderful stuff on neighbourhood policing.
In some places, community engagement has made a real difference - but the cuts have put a stop to a lot of that.

I think one of two things will happen.
We could see more specialist teams/forces who will be armed, and whose job will be to respond to social unrest or any large demonstration that has the potential to get nasty. That's if such demonstrations will be allowed.
Or there may be some sort of new legislation that will allow local emergency authorities (councils, police, etc) to use private companies to provide support to the police for larger demos and protests. If they're allowed.

The UNHCR and ECHR are basically going to have a coach and horses run through them if TCBBAC gets his way. He intends to scrap our Human Rights Act anyway, and as yet we have no idea what his Bill of Rights is going to be like.

There is another interesting article in the G about Labour accusations of right-wing bias at the BBC and complaints that many BBC and other journalists simply accept what the papers said about Labour and the SNP without question. Campaign managers for Labour are saying that they tried many times to get their message across that Ed would not form a coalition with the SNP but their side of the story was never put on air - and they also allege that BBC journos said they were threatened by the Tories that they'd lose their licence if their coverage wasn't favourable.

Labour has often been accused of being authoritarian, and all that stuff about ID cards gave Tories a reason to claim that Labour were controlling, interfering Big Brother types who were infringing civil liberties etc. etc. and although there is an element of truth in that, what TCBBAC seems to be proposing isn't "proto-fascism" it's actually the beginnings of real fascism, IMHO.

As it is, legislation exists that requires the organisers of large marches/demos to submit their proposals for how they will maintain order; if they don't, they may be refused permission to march. It's ridiculous now - it's going to get a whole lot worse if the Tories get their way.

One thing announced yesterday made my skin crawl - Dominic Raab is to assist Gove at the Ministry of Justice.
This is very bad news.
Raab is a rampant right-winger, and although we all had a good laugh at some of his more preposterous remarks and the risible book Britannia Unchained which he contributed to, he is a very very dangerous individual.
He is actually a very good lawyer, very intelligent, and eminently capable of drafting clever legislation. His views are generally abhorrent and his outbursts frequently so extreme that they are laughable - but he is deadly serious, and now he is at MOJ he is frightening.

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Wed 13 May, 2015 10:41 am

So after deciding to lick my wounds on my own after last Thursdays disaster, but continuing to read your missives I have decided to re-enter the fray. This may be a bit of a ramble but its a collection of thoughts developed over the past week. Please bear with me.

Firstly Mandelson is a shit always been and always will be so lets not even give him the time of day. Glad that Harriet give him short shrift a day or so ago.

Next. Please lets not have Umuna.He is exactly the opposite of what any vaguely left wing or undecided wants. I am in full agreement with those that have advocated a more "common man/woman" approach rather than a metropolitan,smoothy,wheeler dealer. Labour needs to completely differentiate from the current approach of university,researcher,spad,safe seat approach. Lets get started on an approach aimed at getting more "average Joes/Jos'" with life experience and a bit of fire in their belly rather than the emotionless talking heads approach we have seen from all the main parties.

I see that the conservatives are hyping up their agenda against the BBC even claiming that it was biased against them during the election. Amazing to me given that the BBC reporter allocated to them during the election, Carol Walker, gave very little in the way of impartial information seeming to regurgitate the CCO agenda consistently.Iain Watson,in particular,seemed immune from this influence and gave warts and all reports.

On a similar subject I note that the usual suspects are out and about claiming the written press had very little influence on the election result quoted diminishing numbers of papers being sold. Frankly ,as long as the BBC maintain their current stance of following a narrative established by the Daily Mail then the paper circulation is unimportant. I seem to remember someone on here reporting a few days ago of an interviewee of John Humphries (Alistair Campbell?) claiming that he ,more often than not, had a copy of the Daily Mail open alongside him.

So,seemlessly(?) to follow on to the subject of Humphries, Neil and the other self important interviewers. I was really pleased to see Liz Kendall give Andrew Neil a good run for his money on Sunday. We need more of this assertive approach from Labour interviewees rather than the victim status some seem to accept all to readily. I would much rather see headlines about them having a damn good argument as opposed to the "Labour politician trounced by interviewer" sort. Do not go into any interview thinking Humphries,Montague,Neil or Kunnesburg (sic) are your friends.

I will not, and I think it is pretty unseemly to, join in with the trashing of Ed Milliband and his approach. It is pretty disgusting that the like of Mandelson, Blair and their acolytes have gleefully joined in with the tory narrative of Ed.He was a good man with his heart in exactly the right place. The vast majority of his policies were overwhelmingly popular, however the FUD approach (as someone alluded to here recently) seemed to win the day. It is also apparent that some people in his support team were not 100% on his side. People seem to forget that this time last week the right wing was running scared of him. We should all remember the state the labour party was in when he took over. History will judge him kindly I believe.

As to his brother and his damned with feint praise statement.I will reuse the expletive I used for Mandelson.Thank god he never became leader.

I see the point in having a full scale inquest to fully understand the reasons behind the voters rejection and agree with the thoughts behind it.However,please lets not let the Tories away with a repeat of 2010 and allow it to form the narrative. Please lets have some "umph" in all public appearances, interviews and PR.As Harriet said we are defeated but not defeatist. Remind people all the time that, whilst we have work to do, Cameron only has a 12 seat majority and only 24% of the population voted for him.

Final couple of thoughts. Conservative & Unionist party. After Cameron's disreputable election campaign and his vilification of all thing Scots (in addition to his previous thoughts on the Welsh) should he not be investigated under the Trades description Act! Perhaps with only one MP in Scotland and one in Wales they should do what Tim Farron advocates and change their name.English National Party anyone?

On a lighter note to finish. My 4 year old grand daughter lives in Twickenham. My daughter took her to the polling station and Annabel was most interested in the process. When she arrived home she said she was forming her own party,the Annabel mermaid party. Her policies are simple.Mermaids,fun and laughter. Any one want to join the Annabel Mermaid Party? I think it could be quite popular.

Thank you for your forbearance and I promise not to stay away or be so longwinded next time. Unless asked of course!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 May, 2015 10:44 am

Good morfternoon.

I wonder how long it will take for this government to demonstrate that, now it's got a majority and, theoretically, five clear years of power, it will ditch any pretence of rooting for the "small" Conservatives and come out full throttle for the 1%?

Not intended as a cheap point but possibly as a litmus test - will any reference to Ivan now be consigned to the dustbin?

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 13 May, 2015 10:48 am

mikems wrote:Urgent message to all FTNers :

If we are ever going to have a media that is honest and on our side, we must support what we currently have, which is not a blooming lot. The Morning Star is our paper and we should all be buying and supporting it.

It is critical of Labour from the left, but is one of the few forums we have that is supported by the trade union movement and is actively pressing for progressive advance in society. It has a broad range of left voices and healthy debate in its pages. It is owned by its readers, not the Communist party, and while it supports the policy objectives of Britain's Road to Socialism, it is not blinkered and hidebound.

Please start buying and supporting it, as well as the party of your choice.

Morning all
Mikems - I honestly tried to buy it locally but no-one stocks it. I asked if they had it in Smiths a couple of Saturdays ago. They pointed me in the direction of the stack of Daily Stars. Not being at all interested in knowing the ins & outs of the latest series of "Big Brother" I declined their offer.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Wed 13 May, 2015 11:05 am

Anyone can order any print newspaper or magazine through a retail outlet. Just ask them to order a copy for you, and they will do it.

But, they won't stock it as a matter of course, except in some outlets : McColls for example. Sainsburies and Coop have it in my area.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 May, 2015 11:14 am

I expect we've had this but I haven't had the chance to read the posts which I have missed from last night -

Labour’s national executive committee will on Wednesday agree a lengthy timetable for the increasingly tangled party leadership election with plans for a ballot and count ending either in the first weeks of September or as late as October.

It has been agreed that the result should not be announced at the party’s annual conference starting on 27 or 28 September but at a special conference a fortnight before or after. (Guardian)

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 13 May, 2015 11:21 am

The more I think about this, the worse I feel.

Show reckons we are already living in a fascist state. Some of us have been talking about proto-/crypto- fascism, whatever....

Fascism is generally defined as authoritarian nationalism, with elements of protectionism and the stifling of dissent by the control of information; it's usually accepted as being a right-wing form of social organisation, even though historically fascist movements have had left-wing elements.

I've been saying for a long time now that the social security reforms are reminiscent of what the Nazis did before WW2, in that certain groups were slowly marginalised by a drip-drip-drip method of propaganda vilifying them. It was then OK to keep them out of certain areas, to restrict their movements, to ghettoise them and prevent them from being able to work and thrive.
That was followed by slowly reducing their possessions, any state help they could get was dependent on forced labour, those who could not work starved and those who could had their rations reduced so they became ill from malnutrition. Some people now wonder how all the Jews, gypsies, and disabled people became so cowed, this is why - they were starving and ill.

How different is that from what happens now?
Are people being ghettoised? They're certainly being socially cleansed from some areas.
Are people having their support reduced even if they are doing unpaid work for it? Yes, they are.
Are the media culpable in disseminating anti-scrounger stories? Yes, they are.
Is our government talking about behavioural change rather than offering a safety net? Yes, it is.

I joked about seeingclearly's post about the prospect of living in a tent in Hull.
2 people living in tents in this country died during the winter.

We all said before this election, for the 5 years before this election, elsewhere and here, that the Tories were doing things in the last government with the enablement of the LibDems that even Thatcher wouldn't have dared to do.
We all said that Labour had to win this time because it would be more of the same if the Tories got another coalition - but now they have a majority, so they are going to be confident and very dangerous.

I am truly worried about what we have coming. If we can't trust our government, our media, or even our fellow voters, to do what is best in the interests of us all, what hope have we got?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 May, 2015 11:22 am

I've just had a quick flip through the posts which I missed last night.

I'm looking at you AngryAsWell . . . .

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 13 May, 2015 11:35 am

PorFavor wrote:I've just had a quick flip through the posts which I missed last night.

I'm looking at you AngryAsWell . . . .

Oh no! What have I done now...???? (hides behind the curtains

)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 May, 2015 11:38 am

AngryAsWell wrote:
PorFavor wrote:I've just had a quick flip through the posts which I missed last night.

I'm looking at you AngryAsWell . . . .
Oh no! What have I done now...???? (hides behind the curtains )

Ha! No - it's just that if I repeated a post (ref the leadership situation), which I did, it was almost guaranteed to be one of yours!

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 13 May, 2015 11:45 am

PorFavor wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
PorFavor wrote:I've just had a quick flip through the posts which I missed last night.

I'm looking at you AngryAsWell . . . .
Oh no! What have I done now...???? (hides behind the curtains )
Ha! No - it's just that if I repeated a post (ref the leadership situation), which I did, it was almost guaranteed to be one of yours!

LOL!

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Wed 13 May, 2015 11:49 am

Not seen this here yet:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... are_btn_tw

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 13 May, 2015 12:05 pm

@ephe
I share your fears and I just can't see any way though this lot.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Wed 13 May, 2015 12:24 pm

Good to see the 'Save the HRA' petition grow so quickly. That's the way through this : popular opposition to the government.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 13 May, 2015 12:39 pm

mikems wrote:Good to see the 'Save the HRA' petition grow so quickly. That's the way through this : popular opposition to the government.

Which they will just ignore, I'm sorry to say.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 13 May, 2015 12:41 pm

Sadiq Khan announces he’s running to be Labour’s London Mayoral candidate http://labourlist.org/2015/05/sadiq-kha ... candidate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 13 May, 2015 12:44 pm

Sam Macrory ‏@sammacrory 16m16 minutes ago
Zac Goldsmith on Heathrow runway: "If my party gives a green light for expansion then I have to trigger a by-election" #bbcdp

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 13 May, 2015 12:47 pm

AndrewSparrow ‏@AndrewSparrow 44m44 minutes ago
No 10 says FoI legislation to be amended to make it easier for ministers to veto release of information - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/liv ... 4971625b10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Oh FFS.

There's nothing proto about it.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 May, 2015 12:49 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
AndrewSparrow ‏@AndrewSparrow 44m44 minutes ago
No 10 says FoI legislation to be amended to make it easier for ministers to veto release of information - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/liv ... 4971625b10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
Oh FFS.

There's nothing proto about it.

It's not very crypto, either.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 13 May, 2015 12:50 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
mikems wrote:Good to see the 'Save the HRA' petition grow so quickly. That's the way through this : popular opposition to the government.
Which they will just ignore, I'm sorry to say.

Pressure and petitions need to be focused on the waverers, potential Tory rebels. This government is vile and extremely right-wing, but there are a lot of Tory MPs and they're not all carbon copies of each other. At least some of them will have more moderate views. Those with moderate views in marginals with small majorities in particular could be swayed by protests and letters from their constituents (not my MP Rees-Mogg, obviously). 38% are quite good at organising this kind of constituency protest so may be worth joining for anyone who wants to get involved, especially as they manage to remain non-partisan so have more clout as the "voice" of ordinary voters.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 13 May, 2015 12:51 pm

Rob Merrick ‏@Rob_Merrick 2h2 hours ago
Citizen's Advice on extension of Universal Credit to couples & families (in FT): "It is pushing people on low incomes into abject hardship"

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 13 May, 2015 12:52 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Hopi Sen ‏@hopisen 11h11 hours ago
New post: Liz Kendall for Prime Minister http://wp.me/p1Vf1s-1Hf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hopi is a Blairite (I like him nonetheless) but I am keeping an open mind about her - she has been impressive in the last few days.