Thursday 14th May 2015

[TechnicalEphemera]

Not from where many pensioners stand, TE. If you think life is a doddle at this end really, think again. Millions aren't home owners, millions are women who never made it into well paid work. Huge amounts have been slashed on health budgets, that means GPSsome of whom run a 2tier system. many are filling child care or carers roles completely unpaid, and are supporting adult children. tbh I'm tired and not doing that well today otherwise I would have been more factual on this. Statistics are all very well but are not neccessrily revealing on the true nature of things. One of the less forgivable features of Tory thinking is getting statistics to become part of our everyday, and misusing them. This is not to say you are, but regardless of what you believe or think you know on this it's unbelievable that older people are being scapegoated. Of course a huge amount goes on pensioners. It's because they no longer generate their own incomes because they cannot do so or have yielded way for younger workers. I'm very tech on this. Lots of us for various reasons never got near the housing ladder and never could afford to catch up with NI. We are not the boomers of public mythology. Well, I never got the boom bit, neither did a lot of my peers.

I don't dispute the fact that many pensioners find life extremely tough. If I was running the country I would be looking to target the richer pensioners to reduce costs. However those struggling pensioners still deserve protection.

[ohsocynical]

Just to cheer you up a bit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 48313.html

I read it earlier and it did - cheer me up.

I wonder if Cameron is going to regret some of the things he made such a big deal of in their manifesto ... this being one of them.

Shouldn't think so if the last five years are anything to go by....

[rebeccariots2]

Not from where many pensioners stand, TE. If you think life is a doddle at this end really, think again. Millions aren't home owners, millions are women who never made it into well paid work. Huge amounts have been slashed on health budgets, that means GPSsome of whom run a 2tier system. many are filling child care or carers roles completely unpaid, and are supporting adult children. tbh I'm tired and not doing that well today otherwise I would have been more factual on this. Statistics are all very well but are not neccessrily revealing on the true nature of things. One of the less forgivable features of Tory thinking is getting statistics to become part of our everyday, and misusing them. This is not to say you are, but regardless of what you believe or think you know on this it's unbelievable that older people are being scapegoated. Of course a huge amount goes on pensioners. It's because they no longer generate their own incomes because they cannot do so or have yielded way for younger workers. I'm very tech on this. Lots of us for various reasons never got near the housing ladder and never could afford to catch up with NI. We are not the boomers of public mythology. Well, I never got the boom bit, neither did a lot of my peers.

There is no homogenous group of pensioners, I agree. These group labels are way past their sell by date.

I know there are some who are relatively well off or at least 'comfortable' - we know a few - but there are at least as many, if not many more, who are not. Mr Riots is still working at 70 because he couldn't manage on his state pension alone. One of my best canvassing pals is 68 and would desperately like to stop working because she is in so much pain a lot of the time ... but simply can't afford to as her pension doesn't cover the basic outgoings. I know many more like that. These are not people who didn't work ... they just weren't in the kind of jobs that gave them more than enough to live on wages and decent pensions.

[PorFavor]

Fucking hell. They're starting on pensioners now on Twitter. Calling pensions, benefits, and it's from Strength and Honour. I didn't expect it of him.

Grey vote also getting the blame for Tories getting in - again.
Thinking of the number of 'grey' Tory voters that have died between 2010 & 2015, and Tories only increased their vote by .O8% doesn't read like their fault to me.

The Tory policy is aimed squarely at protecting pensioners at the expense of everybody else. It has been described as generational theft, with the current pensioners stealing the future of today's youth.

Pensioners vote in overwhelming numbers, and they vote Tory.

Pensions make up a huge (and increasing) percentage of spending on benefits. The degree to which a pension can be seen as a state benefit is however questionable. I wonder if anybody has asked the question what an average persons pension would be if there was no state pension and the payments had been put into a defined contribution scheme.

That may seem harsh but it is the truth.

Pensions were never classed as benefits until this lot got in. It's part of the blame culture.

And there are plenty of us who don't get pension credits...Mr Ohso and I are a few pounds a week above the limit and we know quite a few oldies in our position. It's another mistaken belief that you automatically get all the freebies when you retire. We still pay for our teeth, glasses etc.

I think pensions are included in the benefits figures purely for the purpose of inflating said figures and stirring up ill-feeling against benefits claimants who are mostly not pensioners. It's also helped to foster generational tensions.

[citizenJA]

Just to cheer you up a bit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 48313.html

I read it earlier and it did - cheer me up.

I wonder if Cameron is going to regret some of the things he made such a big deal of in their manifesto ... this being one of them.

Shouldn't think so if the last five years are anything to go by....

Exactly.

[PorFavor]

Goodnight, everyone.

[ohsocynical]

The Tory policy is aimed squarely at protecting pensioners at the expense of everybody else. It has been described as generational theft, with the current pensioners stealing the future of today's youth.

Pensioners vote in overwhelming numbers, and they vote Tory.

Pensions make up a huge (and increasing) percentage of spending on benefits. The degree to which a pension can be seen as a state benefit is however questionable. I wonder if anybody has asked the question what an average persons pension would be if there was no state pension and the payments had been put into a defined contribution scheme.

That may seem harsh but it is the truth.

Pensions were never classed as benefits until this lot got in. It's part of the blame culture.

And there are plenty of us who don't get pension credits...Mr Ohso and I are a few pounds a week above the limit and we know quite a few oldies in our position. It's another mistaken belief that you automatically get all the freebies when you retire. We still pay for our teeth, glasses etc.

I think pensions are included in the benefits figures purely for the purpose of inflating said figures and stirring up ill-feeling against benefits claimants who are mostly not pensioners. It's also helped to foster generational tensions.

YES, yes, yes

[rebeccariots2]

Pensions were never classed as benefits until this lot got in. It's part of the blame culture.

And there are plenty of us who don't get pension credits...Mr Ohso and I are a few pounds a week above the limit and we know quite a few oldies in our position. It's another mistaken belief that you automatically get all the freebies when you retire. We still pay for our teeth, glasses etc.

You've given me a new perspective on the phrase 'these are all my own teeth' Ohso.

[citizenJA]

Not from where many pensioners stand, TE. If you think life is a doddle at this end really, think again. Millions aren't home owners, millions are women who never made it into well paid work. Huge amounts have been slashed on health budgets, that means GPSsome of whom run a 2tier system. many are filling child care or carers roles completely unpaid, and are supporting adult children. tbh I'm tired and not doing that well today otherwise I would have been more factual on this. Statistics are all very well but are not neccessrily revealing on the true nature of things. One of the less forgivable features of Tory thinking is getting statistics to become part of our everyday, and misusing them. This is not to say you are, but regardless of what you believe or think you know on this it's unbelievable that older people are being scapegoated. Of course a huge amount goes on pensioners. It's because they no longer generate their own incomes because they cannot do so or have yielded way for younger workers. I'm very tech on this. Lots of us for various reasons never got near the housing ladder and never could afford to catch up with NI. We are not the boomers of public mythology. Well, I never got the boom bit, neither did a lot of my peers.

There is no homogenous group of pensioners, I agree. These group labels are way past their sell by date.

I know there are some who are relatively well off or at least 'comfortable' - we know a few - but there are at least as many, if not many more, who are not. Mr Riots is still working at 70 because he couldn't manage on his state pension alone. One of my best canvassing pals is 68 and would desperately like to stop working because she is in so much pain a lot of the time ... but simply can't afford to as her pension doesn't cover the basic outgoings. I know many more like that. These are not people who didn't work ... they just weren't in the kind of jobs that gave them more than enough to live on wages and decent pensions.

Well said. Thank you for clearly articulating what we've got going on here. Some people, not a majority, have some assets shielding them from current Tory policy decisions from the last five years; statistically, most of people in that group are older but it's an aside.

There are people with independent wealth & there's the rest of us - that's it. I don't mind others having their things. No one has the right to use human beings creating civilisation as expendable. We voted for fairness. We've get Tories instead.

[rebeccariots2]

When a Labour spokesperson is asked to comment on ''welfare' spending and cuts in future ... wouldn't it be great if they started off each time by adjusting the overall figures to exclude pensions ... and stated so? This would be perfectly legitimate and make sense as Ohso said they've only been included / classed as 'benefits' fairly recently - and as the goverment have stuck a triple lock on pensions ... the allocated figures can't be changed that much through any cuts so should make no difference for them to be separated out again.

[ErnstRemarx]

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 17m17 minutes ago
Labour left MPs collecting signatures for anti-austerity letter. New intake most left-leaning for a long time.

Ah - interesting developments ahead maybe.

And hello Ernst. I can see you are logged in. Very best wishes to you.

Thank you. Life is no easier than it became a few weeks back. I hope to report better news soon.

[ohsocynical]

Pensions were never classed as benefits until this lot got in. It's part of the blame culture.

And there are plenty of us who don't get pension credits...Mr Ohso and I are a few pounds a week above the limit and we know quite a few oldies in our position. It's another mistaken belief that you automatically get all the freebies when you retire. We still pay for our teeth, glasses etc.

You've given me a new perspective on the phrase 'these are all my own teeth' Ohso.

Had to fork out for a check up and then £40 on top to have them cleaned. I haven't many back teeth. I should have got half price.
I've had to have a lot out recently because Mr Ohso and I had to share the health costs. His went on his teeth, and mine had to go on glasses every year due to my cataracts...This year is the first time I haven't had to fork out for glasses instead the dentist has cost me over a hundred pounds in the last six months plus we've had Mr Ohso's dental tab. He hasn't had his eyes seen to for thirteen years so we need to find that from somewhere. He worked and was paying taxes until he was 73. Funny that we never begrudged it going to support the next generation.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

When a Labour spokesperson is asked to comment on ''welfare' spending and cuts in future ... wouldn't it be great if they started off each time by adjusting the overall figures to exclude pensions ... and stated so? This would be perfectly legitimate and make sense as Ohso said they've only been included / classed as 'benefits' fairly recently - and as the goverment have stuck a triple lock on pensions ... the allocated figures can't be changed that much through any cuts so should make no difference for them to be separated out again.

But before they do that they need to make a point of calling it "social security".

[rebeccariots2]

When a Labour spokesperson is asked to comment on ''welfare' spending and cuts in future ... wouldn't it be great if they started off each time by adjusting the overall figures to exclude pensions ... and stated so? This would be perfectly legitimate and make sense as Ohso said they've only been included / classed as 'benefits' fairly recently - and as the goverment have stuck a triple lock on pensions ... the allocated figures can't be changed that much through any cuts so should make no difference for them to be separated out again.

But before they do that they need to make a point of calling it "social security".

YES! And I was thinking exactly that after I submitted that post TGS.

[JustMom]

Myself and my husband are both pensioners,we live on just the basic pension.
We also have 2 sons at home,one gets dole,the other is on a sanction so money is always tight for us......

[citizenJA]

Pensions were never classed as benefits until this lot got in. It's part of the blame culture.

And there are plenty of us who don't get pension credits...Mr Ohso and I are a few pounds a week above the limit and we know quite a few oldies in our position. It's another mistaken belief that you automatically get all the freebies when you retire. We still pay for our teeth, glasses etc.

You've given me a new perspective on the phrase 'these are all my own teeth' Ohso.

People unable to eat adequately nutritious food without discomfort won't live as long as people with healthy teeth. I worked some years as a care worker in the USA. Properly fitted dentures, implants &/or the teeth we've grown ourselves all require regular dental care. Genetics can gift many people with healthy teeth with little trouble. Most people require dental work beyond a couple of check-ups a year for polishing. It costs individuals a fortune in the USA; the healthcare older US citizens are entitled to doesn't include enough assistance for dental work.

[AngryAsWell]

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 17m17 minutes ago
Labour left MPs collecting signatures for anti-austerity letter. New intake most left-leaning for a long time.

Ah - interesting developments ahead maybe.

And hello Ernst. I can see you are logged in. Very best wishes to you.

Thank you. Life is no easier than it became a few weeks back. I hope to report better news soon.

Thinking of you Ernst - keep on, keeping on xx

[LadyCentauria]

:waves delightedly: @ErnstRemarx: Lovely even to see your name in the list – hope things are better (or at least getting there!) and another

[ohsocynical]

Pensions were never classed as benefits until this lot got in. It's part of the blame culture.

And there are plenty of us who don't get pension credits...Mr Ohso and I are a few pounds a week above the limit and we know quite a few oldies in our position. It's another mistaken belief that you automatically get all the freebies when you retire. We still pay for our teeth, glasses etc.

You've given me a new perspective on the phrase 'these are all my own teeth' Ohso.

Had to fork out for a check up and then £40 on top to have them cleaned. I haven't many back teeth. I should have got half price.
I've had to have a lot out recently because Mr Ohso and I had to share the health costs. His went on his teeth, and mine had to go on glasses every year due to my cataracts...This year is the first time I haven't had to fork out for glasses instead the dentist has cost me over a hundred pounds in the last six months plus we've had Mr Ohso's dental tab. He hasn't had his eyes seen to for thirteen years so we need to find that from somewhere. He worked and was paying taxes until he was 73. Funny that we never begrudged it going to support the next generation.

I imagine a lot of people look at us and think we're well off because we have a car, but we don't go on holiday or buy new clothes. Everything comes from the charity shops along with a lot of our household goods and furniture. Because I had such a long spell recovering from my heart problems we've downsized twice and lived on the profits in order to make up my loss of earnings, and we're due to do it again for a third and final time. We'll be renting from then on, and if Mr Ohso pops his clogs before me, then the money we get from this place won't last long because due to paying the minimum stamp I only get £70 a week pension.

When I had my own business and was making good money, I took out a pension plan, but it was when those dodgy schemes were being sold and I couldn't keep up the payments because I got ill and ran out of time before I could resume it. That scheme will start paying me £1 a week when I'm 74.

We can't afford to live into our eighties.

[JustMom]

The last time we had eye checks was about 18 months ago,because I'm housebound he came to visit me at home.
I had very basic glasses and so did my husband,it cost us £100 because it was a home visit.In future I shall be squinting because it was very hard scraping together that £100.

[citizenJA]

Hi, ErnstRemarx

edited to make an adjustment

[AngryAsWell]

Mary Creagh's page is up, I'm deeply unimpressed that she chose the Mail - of all papers - to give her declaration to
That's me not voting for her after all the shit they tossed at both Ed and Labour.

[citizenJA]

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 17m17 minutes ago
Labour left MPs collecting signatures for anti-austerity letter. New intake most left-leaning for a long time.

Ah - interesting developments ahead maybe.

And hello Ernst. I can see you are logged in. Very best wishes to you.

Thank you. Life is no easier than it became a few weeks back. I hope to report better news soon.

This is Sophia.
xx
cJA

[ohsocynical]

Pensions were never classed as benefits until this lot got in. It's part of the blame culture.

And there are plenty of us who don't get pension credits...Mr Ohso and I are a few pounds a week above the limit and we know quite a few oldies in our position. It's another mistaken belief that you automatically get all the freebies when you retire. We still pay for our teeth, glasses etc.

You've given me a new perspective on the phrase 'these are all my own teeth' Ohso.

People unable to eat adequately nutritious food without discomfort won't live as long as people with healthy teeth. I worked some years as a care worker in the USA. Properly fitted dentures, implants &/or the teeth we've grown ourselves all require regular dental care. Genetics can gift many people with healthy teeth with little trouble. Most people require dental work beyond a couple of check-ups a year for polishing. It costs individuals a fortune in the USA; the healthcare older US citizens are entitled to doesn't include enough assistance for dental work.

I pulled one of my wisdom teeth out myself.

[citizenJA]

Goodnight, everyone.

Goodnight, PorFavor

[rebeccariots2]

Mary Creagh's page is up, I'm deeply unimpressed that she chose the Mail - of all papers - to give her declaration to
That's me not voting for her after all the shit they tossed at both Ed and Labour.

I'm less worried by that AAW. Understand your anger about it though. My take is that she's actually trying to say she's not going to tread fearfully around them - she's started by introducing herself to them in no uncertain terms. I don't know whether that's wise or not - but it's certainly different. I feel I need someone who's prepared to be a bit different - and far more upfront - to head up Labour.

Reserving opinion on this one. But can see why many, as you, probably won't like it.

[AngryAsWell]

Mary Creagh's page is up, I'm deeply unimpressed that she chose the Mail - of all papers - to give her declaration to
That's me not voting for her after all the shit they tossed at both Ed and Labour.

I'm less worried by that AAW. Understand your anger about it though. My take is that she's actually trying to say she's not going to tread fearfully around them - she's started by introducing herself to them in no uncertain terms. I don't know whether that's wise or not - but it's certainly different. I feel I need someone who's prepared to be a bit different - and far more upfront - to head up Labour.

Reserving opinion on this one. But can see why many, as you, probably won't like it.

Speaking for myself, I don't want insulting so that she can feel different. I don't see it as "fighting talk" I see it as capitulation.
But there you go - - two very different opinions in space of a few minuets!

[citizenJA]

Not from where many pensioners stand, TE. If you think life is a doddle at this end really, think again. Millions aren't home owners, millions are women who never made it into well paid work. Huge amounts have been slashed on health budgets, that means GPSsome of whom run a 2tier system. many are filling child care or carers roles completely unpaid, and are supporting adult children. tbh I'm tired and not doing that well today otherwise I would have been more factual on this. Statistics are all very well but are not neccessrily revealing on the true nature of things. One of the less forgivable features of Tory thinking is getting statistics to become part of our everyday, and misusing them. This is not to say you are, but regardless of what you believe or think you know on this it's unbelievable that older people are being scapegoated. Of course a huge amount goes on pensioners. It's because they no longer generate their own incomes because they cannot do so or have yielded way for younger workers. I'm very tech on this. Lots of us for various reasons never got near the housing ladder and never could afford to catch up with NI. We are not the boomers of public mythology. Well, I never got the boom bit, neither did a lot of my peers.

I don't dispute the fact that many pensioners find life extremely tough. If I was running the country I would be looking to target the richer pensioners to reduce costs. However those struggling pensioners still deserve protection.

People possessing superfluous assets from birth while their society is also home to others without the means to sustain their lives need to be introduced to each other & an equitable arrangement made agreeable to all people who value fairness.

[ohsocynical]

The snag when you have cataracts is you really have to get varifocals and because in the end your sight is so bad, the lens would be like the bottom of a milk bottle and be too heavy to wear, you then have to fork out for the thin lens. That whacks the cost up.
I only ever paid £25 for frames and a couple of times had new lens fitted into old frames but I had to shop around to find an optician who would do that. The eye test is only free once every two years and I had to get my eyes tested every year.

Mr Ohso is one of those lucky ones with good teeth. He accidentally hit himself in the mouth and loosed two bottom teeth so badly they fell out, so he has a plate for them. He's had two back teeth out and a couple of fillings. Both our children have inherited his good teeth.

Our forty nine year old son has had one wisdom tooth out, and one filling. Our 53 year old daughter has roughly the same.

[citizenJA]

AngryAsWell
But there you go - - two very different opinions in space of a few minuets!

Excellent! Politics, society maintenance are these exchanges. Negotiation.

[rebeccariots2]

Daily Mirror ‏@DailyMirror 14m14 minutes ago
.@LucyMPowell: How I rallied Ed over exit poll, why Cameron beat us, how Labour should rebuild http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lu ... re-5699489" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Interesting read.

[Willow904]

Mary Creagh's page is up, I'm deeply unimpressed that she chose the Mail - of all papers - to give her declaration to
That's me not voting for her after all the shit they tossed at both Ed and Labour.

I'm less worried by that AAW. Understand your anger about it though. My take is that she's actually trying to say she's not going to tread fearfully around them - she's started by introducing herself to them in no uncertain terms. I don't know whether that's wise or not - but it's certainly different. I feel I need someone who's prepared to be a bit different - and far more upfront - to head up Labour.

Reserving opinion on this one. But can see why many, as you, probably won't like it.

Speaking for myself, I don't want insulting so that she can feel different. I don't see it as "fighting talk" I see it as capitulation.
But there you go - - two very different opinions in space of a few minuets!

I thought Creagh was going to be a real potential but it turns out she's marmite. I watched her in a clip on youtube and thought she seemed good but my husband barely gave her 2 seconds before he said "no". Not very promising when we need someone with wider appeal!

[LadyCentauria]

Details are now up for tonight's Newsnight: "An interview with Unite leader Len McClusky on Labour's election defeats, UKIP's internal battles, new powers for cities and the artist David Hockney. With Emily Maitlis." 10.30pm

I'll be watching QT to see how Hunty does against Farage, Jeremy not-a-typo-*unt, someone called Zanny Minton Beddoes, and Dr. Brian May (at 10.45pm); so I'll watch Newsnight on catch-up. But for those who want to watch neither, ITV are offering a repeat of last night's Newzoids (10.40pm) – which succeeded in making me laugh, at more points than in earlier episodes.

[rebeccariots2]

I'm less worried by that AAW. Understand your anger about it though. My take is that she's actually trying to say she's not going to tread fearfully around them - she's started by introducing herself to them in no uncertain terms. I don't know whether that's wise or not - but it's certainly different. I feel I need someone who's prepared to be a bit different - and far more upfront - to head up Labour.

Reserving opinion on this one. But can see why many, as you, probably won't like it.

Speaking for myself, I don't want insulting so that she can feel different. I don't see it as "fighting talk" I see it as capitulation.
But there you go - - two very different opinions in space of a few minuets!

I thought Creagh was going to be a real potential but it turns out she's marmite. I watched her in a clip on youtube and thought she seemed good but my husband barely gave her 2 seconds before he said "no". Not very promising when we need someone with wider appeal!

There's a poll under that Lucy Powell article I just posted a link to asking if Labour should be more left wing or not. Currently 50% say Yes and 50% say No. Marmite could be the order of the day!

[Willow904]

Daily Mirror ‏@DailyMirror 14m14 minutes ago
.@LucyMPowell: How I rallied Ed over exit poll, why Cameron beat us, how Labour should rebuild http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lu ... re-5699489" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Interesting read.

I just did the poll at the bottom of that article - 'should Labour be less left wing'? 50% yes, 50% no! Not much help for Labour there. If they do move right with Umunna I suspect they'll just swap one set of voters for another.

[rebeccariots2]

Daily Mirror ‏@DailyMirror 14m14 minutes ago
.@LucyMPowell: How I rallied Ed over exit poll, why Cameron beat us, how Labour should rebuild http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lu ... re-5699489" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Interesting read.

I just did the poll at the bottom of that article - 'should Labour be less left wing'? 50% yes, 50% no! Not much help for Labour there. If they do move right with Umunna I suspect they'll just swap one set of voters for another.

Snap, Willow.

[AngryAsWell]

Speaking for myself, I don't want insulting so that she can feel different. I don't see it as "fighting talk" I see it as capitulation.
But there you go - - two very different opinions in space of a few minuets!

I thought Creagh was going to be a real potential but it turns out she's marmite. I watched her in a clip on youtube and thought she seemed good but my husband barely gave her 2 seconds before he said "no". Not very promising when we need someone with wider appeal!

There's a poll under that Lucy Powell article I just posted a link to asking if Labour should be more left wing or not. Currently 50% say Yes and 50% say No. Marmite could be the order of the day!

Crafty worded poll there - it actually says Should Labour be less left-wing? Just noticed it with my mouse over the Yes button and swapped over quickly

[LadyCentauria]

Daily Mirror ‏@DailyMirror 14m14 minutes ago
.@LucyMPowell: How I rallied Ed over exit poll, why Cameron beat us, how Labour should rebuild http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lu ... re-5699489" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Interesting read.

Just took the poll at the bottom of that article and got a result I've never seen before:
question: Should Labour be less left-wing?
result: Yes 50% No 50% (I said 'No.')

Edit to add: Well, there's a whole lot of us all getting what my late father always called 'a koyinkidink'...

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Thoughts on Marmite politicians.

We have one leadership candidate being rejected for the crime of having a posh name, one for not being great on YouTube and one for being a soulless & patronising wonk; well, the last is fair enough, but have we really reached the point where we judge the book by its cover even before we've read the introduction?

[AngryAsWell]

Thoughts on Marmite politicians.

We have one leadership candidate being rejected for the crime of having a posh name, one for not being great on YouTube and one for being a soulless & patronising wonk; well, the last is fair enough, but have we really reached the point where we judge the book by its cover even before we've read the introduction?

I have said a few times we need to hear what they have to day not judge on past comments. But for me, for a Labour Prospective Leader to use the Mail to announce candidacy is just wrong. I will decide who to vote for after reading and hearing what they say but in my own personal little world, MC now has a lot of ground to make up. Ground she didn't need to have lost.

[citizenJA]

Very quickly, while I'm thinking of it...maintaining our teeth will help ensure we're able to live longer in better health. Other things, seemingly rather minor, also have potentially far-reaching consequences.

Making sure we're taking in enough fibre, protein, fresh, raw foods on a daily basis is essential as well as drinking plenty of clean water. Having time to just sit each day, plenty of sleep, fresh air & regular exercise are essential to each person. How many of our friends do shift work for extended periods? People who've done years of it have lower life expectancy rates. It's not okay knowing consign some members of our society to a lower life expectancy because we collectively neglect ensuring each human being is equal in law & in practise every day.

A democratic country/society must have regular systems in place to monitor we're protecting each other, looking after each other. To do otherwise degrades everyone. Lives thrown away on a career chronically gauging the life worth of human beings like different amounts exist in reality - what a waste of time & life. Each human being is just as important as another, no exception. It's simple.

We don't all have the same capabilities. That's a fact that has nothing to do with our collective social partnerships.

We don't need to like everyone, of course, get serious. But that's an aside.

[utopiandreams]

... I think pensions are included in the benefits figures purely for the purpose of inflating said figures and stirring up ill-feeling against benefits claimants who are mostly not pensioners. It's also helped to foster generational tensions.

This and a lot more besides, PorFavor et al. May I also make an observation regarding language, something obm used to challenge under another name at the G, something we and others used to adhere to, even atl at the G: 'social security' not 'welfare'. Unsurprisingly we have reverted to the language constantly thrown at us.

Society at large is the beneficiary so I would further suggest use of 'allowance' and not 'benefit' too. Pockets of poverty or deprivation are a threat to public health and virtue. Sorry I stand corrected, there is no poverty in the seventh wealthiest nation or so I've been told. Excepting Sickness Benefit (if it still exists), there are allowances, payments, credits, etc.

On a separate note I've just heard Tristram Hunt is on QT, Jeremy too for that matter. Not that I've looked recently but didn't you used to look forward to obm's panel outlines? Off for a browse at http://onebuttonmonkey.com/ after catching up here.

Edit: @GrimSqueaker I see you beat me to it. Much more succinctly of course,

[AngryAsWell]

The return of the Blairites is the last thing Labour needs
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... delusional" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rebeccariots2]

This British bill of rights could end the UK
Philippe Sands
The Tories’ plans would leave some people in the United Kingdom with more rights than others. This is clearly untenable
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... uld-end-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even worse and more ridiculous than I could have imagined. This guy was on the commission set up by Cameron and Clegg to look into a new Bill of Rights etc.

... Our commission engaged in a wide-ranging consultation, which made crystal-clear the overwhelming public support across the UK for continued adherence to the convention and the aims of the 1998 act. We also found no strong objection to the Strasbourg court, given the vital role it plays in guarding against abuses of the kind that plagued Europe in the 1930s and 1940s. To be clear, I don’t like some of its judgments, but they are a reason for persuading the court to change tack, not for destroying it. Our commission visited Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales and found literally no one who had any objection to the current arrangements. The position was not much different elsewhere.

A further issue is that the 1998 act is embedded in the devolution arrangements for Scotland and Wales, and the Good Friday agreement guarantees that Britain will incorporate the European convention into Northern Ireland’s law. Repealing the 1998 act would drive a coach and horses through these arrangements. The Tory appointees were unable to find a way to address this, short of recognising that people in different parts of the UK may have different human rights, depending on which side of a border they happened to live. Such an approach would be calamitous if you care about maintaining the union.

If Michael Gove is clever, he will delay matters until after an EU referendum
Even assuming a way can be found to address all these matters in 100 days – a tall order, given that eight of us couldn’t find a way in 700 days – what would a bill of rights contain? My four Tory friends on the commission couldn’t agree on that either.

That said, Martin Howe QC produced a draft bill which gives a frightening hint of what some may have in mind: he proposes that the rights of any individual would depend on whether they were a British citizen (full fundamental rights), an EU national (fewer rights) or a foreigner (even fewer rights). Such an approach is inconsistent with the very notion of fundamental human rights, in which every human being has basic minimum rights...

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Thoughts on Marmite politicians.

We have one leadership candidate being rejected for the crime of having a posh name, one for not being great on YouTube and one for being a soulless & patronising wonk; well, the last is fair enough, but have we really reached the point where we judge the book by its cover even before we've read the introduction?

I have said a few times we need to hear what they have to day not judge on past comments. But for me, for a Labour Prospective Leader to use the Mail to announce candidacy is just wrong. I will decide who to vote for after reading and hearing what they say but in my own personal little world, MC now has a lot of ground to make up. Ground she didn't need to have lost.

Was certainly an odd choice. Dare say she had good reasons, and she has never struck me as the sort of person to kowtow to Dacre.

[Willow904]

Thoughts on Marmite politicians.

We have one leadership candidate being rejected for the crime of having a posh name, one for not being great on YouTube and one for being a soulless & patronising wonk; well, the last is fair enough, but have we really reached the point where we judge the book by its cover even before we've read the introduction?

For myself I'm just being impatient about getting on with it and distracting myself from the reality that I no longer have a Libdem local council to protect my area from rampant small- statism. When I see each candidate's pitch it will help narrow it down. I just hope whoever wins can inspire everyone to rally round them. This shouldn't be a schism moment for Labour. Ed's laid some solid foundations, I want a candidate that will press on, not rewind to 1997.

[utopiandreams]

Myself and my husband are both pensioners,we live on just the basic pension.
We also have 2 sons at home,one gets dole,the other is on a sanction so money is always tight for us......

Which reminds me, JustMom; only teasing. Lads at home, no Housing Benefit for them (exception to my earlier rule - for the working too as is/was SB temporarily) living with Mum and Dad, whatever their age. If you're in receipt then it is reduced for each non-dependent resident. Does the term feather the nest still exist btw now that flying seems impossible?

[pk1]

Pensioners on a low income may be entitled to help with dental charges etc:

http://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/HealthCosts/1136.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please don't shoot the messenger, I'm only relaying information some might find useful.

[utopiandreams]

The last time we had eye checks was about 18 months ago,because I'm housebound he came to visit me at home.
I had very basic glasses and so did my husband,it cost us £100 because it was a home visit.In future I shall be squinting because it was very hard scraping together that £100.

Must be well over ten years ago now that I was prescribed reading glasses. Prescribed? £80 for something I only used occasionally. I asked whether repeated/constant use would make my eyes lazy. No reply, so thinking of vested interests, I only used them when absolutely necessary. I've lost them since so a pair from the Pound shop is just fine. Having said that I mostly read on screen, Ctrl +, Ctrl - being my friends.

[AngryAsWell]

Liz Kendall & Mary Creagh both seem to think we need to change public services - but don't say how.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/le ... ys-5699889" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(thinking out loud - a bit like a discussion in the pub - my thumb is going down for both of them, but we shall see....)