Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by RogerOThornhill »

SpinningHugo wrote: If you are going to criticise anyone on the 'right' of the party, I'd single out Tristram Hunt. The Education policy was ridiculously bland, and no effort was made to sell it.
Not quite sure what you think Hunt could have done - education wasn't seen by any party as one of the key issues this time.

He could have gone for the radical "return all academies to local authorities" but I doubt anyone would have believed. Including me.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
SpinningHugo
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by SpinningHugo »

RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: If you are going to criticise anyone on the 'right' of the party, I'd single out Tristram Hunt. The Education policy was ridiculously bland, and no effort was made to sell it.
Not quite sure what you think Hunt could have done - education wasn't seen by any party as one of the key issues this time.

He could have gone for the radical "return all academies to local authorities" but I doubt anyone would have believed. Including me.
Well, of course I'd agree that the blame was not primarily Hunt's.
thatchersorphan
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by thatchersorphan »

utopiandreams wrote:
thatchersorphan wrote:... The removal of housing benefit from young jobseekers would potentially put around £69m of annual social household rental income under threat,
My major concern with this is that it probably exemplifies another false premise, typical of most of Cameron's argument. You can see why I've queried the strength of his Oxford First, you simply cannot get away with it in more technical or scientific branches (not politics, but I have rubbed shoulders with some Oxford professors).

The argument as presented portrays youngsters leaving parents to establish their own home whilst claiming benefits. I expect there are none doing so whilst claiming JSA and relatively few working then applying for HB to leave home. Typical of Cameron, Osborne and their batman IDS, use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. What they fail to say is that youngsters who have already worked and had the wherewithall to move on shall be in a very precarious position should they for any reason lose their job.

Edit: I forget myself, only should Mummy and Daddy not be rich enough to support them.
It affects supported housing - which affects the vulnerable. And many young people who GET some sort of social housing do so because they are homeless -waiting lists are too long for someone that young to get one without being a priority for some reason.
Youngsters leaving care get some help, though often they're just left to fend for themselves, but those leaving the family home tend to get nothing, and end up homeless.
As someone who was homeless through my teens I automatically read between the lines, and forget that many others don't.
Sadly people still believe the myth that its easy for some groups of people to get social housing, which does need highlighting.
letsskiptotheleft
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by letsskiptotheleft »

rebeccariots2 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Funny I just mentioned anger in the post I was writing as you posted this ! :lol:
When I posted it I hadn't seen / he hadn't posted the rest in the series of consecutive tweets ... he's obviously very angry about things ... he calls it a self inflicted defeat.

I like Jamie Reed's humour and tweeting style - I have no idea about his broader views, postition, appeal. Let's see what, if anything, develops of his leadership bid. I'm guessing he's very much an outsider at the present time.

But I'm trying - and it is trying - to keep an open mind until the field is settled and all the pitches are made.

10 days on probably the fact that how poor Cameron's premiership was/ is/ will be is what winds me up the most, luckily for me most of those 10 days have been filled with 12 hr shifts and sleeping. I still though can't see past the next leader being a caretaker role, 5 years is a long time for the public to become bored with you, press to vilify or worse, ignore you..

Jamie Reed would be considered an outsider, he's also a Progressive regular, contributer, but after that shittiest of defeats I am prepared not to hold that against him...
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citizenJA
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by citizenJA »

fedup59 wrote: Many thanks Ephie – you’ve said very clearly more or less what I’ve been thinking and I was beginning to wonder if it was just me!

I think we’re being (have been) sold a big lie. Labour did not lose the election because of its policies, nor did it lose because they didn’t talk to, listen to and react to voter concerns and raise the abject failures of the Coalition. They lost because the media and those who own them used lies, propaganda and misinformation to make sure that most voters were unaware of the Coalition failures, were fed a constant diet of hatred of difference, within an underlying cultural lie that the Labour party could never really be in charge because they are not our natural leaders. The media stole the election and I find it really scary that nobody seems to think this is a big thing. I think it demonstrated that we are no longer a functioning democracy.

Everything now seems to have shifted into a great pretence that the result was based on rational decisions made by an informed electorate. The labour party have been taught they must fall into line and the analysis and reporting of the election completely ignores just how dangerously undemocratic the process was.

The main reason that I haven’t posted this week is that I’m deeply depressed that what can be so clearly seen is being swept away in another great lie. As far as I can see democracy has been debased in the furtherance of profit for the few and there is no real outcry.
I can't let this go without thanking you for writing my own thoughts about the 2015 GE. Many, many thanks.
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by AngryAsWell »

Just saw this on twitter and thought Yes!
HaywoodsLocalVoice ‏@HaywoodsVoice · 14m14 minutes ago
#Labour the Blairites Vs Unionite I don't want either I want a LABOUR man because OUR MOVEMENT has BOTH
(only I'd add - or woman)
SpinningHugo
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by SpinningHugo »

citizenJA wrote:
fedup59 wrote: Many thanks Ephie – you’ve said very clearly more or less what I’ve been thinking and I was beginning to wonder if it was just me!

I think we’re being (have been) sold a big lie. Labour did not lose the election because of its policies, nor did it lose because they didn’t talk to, listen to and react to voter concerns and raise the abject failures of the Coalition. They lost because the media and those who own them used lies, propaganda and misinformation to make sure that most voters were unaware of the Coalition failures, were fed a constant diet of hatred of difference, within an underlying cultural lie that the Labour party could never really be in charge because they are not our natural leaders. The media stole the election and I find it really scary that nobody seems to think this is a big thing. I think it demonstrated that we are no longer a functioning democracy.

Everything now seems to have shifted into a great pretence that the result was based on rational decisions made by an informed electorate. The labour party have been taught they must fall into line and the analysis and reporting of the election completely ignores just how dangerously undemocratic the process was.

The main reason that I haven’t posted this week is that I’m deeply depressed that what can be so clearly seen is being swept away in another great lie. As far as I can see democracy has been debased in the furtherance of profit for the few and there is no real outcry.
I can't let this go without thanking you for writing my own thoughts about the 2015 GE. Many, many thanks.
Image
Ok let us assume, for the sake of argument, that that is all true.

What do we do?

My view is that we either rail pointlessly about the unfairness of it all on the internet,

Or, try and win in the world as it actually is.

Do you really not remember the same tired excuses being used post 1979, 1983, 1987, 1992?
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ephemerid
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by ephemerid »

ohsocynical wrote:Another idle thought. We know the figures are fiddled. We know productivity is way down. We know there isn't enough work to go around.

What would the unemployment figures have been if IDS hadn't got his evil schemes off the ground?

Perhaps that's why Dave gave him the job and the social cleansing is an added bonus.

IDS has had 13 long years in opposition to cook up his schemes - he had his Paul-esque conversion the first time he went to Easterhouse way back in 2002 and was escorted around the estate by Bob Holman.
By 2012, just 2 years as DWP henchman-in-chief, he was vilified by Holman as having changed his views on why people like the Easterhouse residents are poor in a U-turn of epic proportions.
We will never know whether he actually truly cared on his first visit or if he has a previously unrecognised talent for acting - but his time in opposition was spent putting together his vicious programme.

Unemployment was 2.5 Million when Labour left office, with fallout from the crash still going on. There is no reason to assume it wouldn't have recovered anyway as things improved.
There are still about 800,000 on the JSA claimant count; there are 700,000 more people who have gone self-employed; there are 120,000 people on workfare or other programmes at any given time (many of whom are on "training allowances" ie. JSA by another name) so the number is pretty much the same.
It must be - the IB/ESA caseload is exactly the same as it was give or take a few hundred thousand. The only real change has been in the number of lone parents claiming Income Support, but they have been shuffled onto JSA earlier than they would have been under Labour.

Add to all that the excessive sanctions, with long-term sanctioned claimants coming off the register, there is not much change - IDS inherited 5 million on the main out-of-work benefits, and he still has that many. They've just been moved around.

I don't think the figures would have been much different - the truth is in there if you look past the headlines.
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by AngryAsWell »

Good news or bad news - depending on what side of the room you stand
Paul Douglas ‏@TVPaulD · May 10  Hounslow, London
Hearing @ed_miliband WILL seek to remain in frontline politics. Next Labour Leader best not oppose this, or *I* will oppose THEM #ThankYouEd
ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by ohsocynical »

@SpinningHugo

My view is that we either rail pointlessly about the unfairness of it all on the internet,
I confess to being irritated seeing the same accusations aimed at the Cons on Twitter...I want to scream but we know that. All of us who voted Labour know it. Don't preach to the converted.

We didn't do too badly considering. You can't call a majority of ten a resounding success.

This next round of cuts are going to start affecting those further up the social ladder. It's inevitable.
Less Police and Firemen? They're needed as much by the rich as the poor. In fact they have more to lose.
And the minute interests rates go up, it'll play havoc with the private housing market.

Then lets hear the screaming.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by ohsocynical »

AngryAsWell wrote:Good news or bad news - depending on what side of the room you stand
Paul Douglas ‏@TVPaulD · May 10  Hounslow, London
Hearing @ed_miliband WILL seek to remain in frontline politics. Next Labour Leader best not oppose this, or *I* will oppose THEM #ThankYouEd

Best bloody news I've heard since the 7th.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
seeingclearly
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by seeingclearly »

ephemerid wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
King, Richard I – “I would have sold London if I could find a buyer”
Bearing in mind our leaders' distant royal origins.

Royal my arse.

All the aristocracy are who they are and where they are thanks to the appropriation of land from common ownership - it might have happened a very long time ago, but nevertheless our royalty and aristos are living on the proceeds of theft.

There have been some interesting posts here about origins and accents. My daughter was born in Gloucester, and has a slight West Country accent - she has white skin, blonde hair, and one blue eye and another half blue and half hazel. She considers herself to be British, but has a lot of foreign antecedents.
On her fathers' side: she has Cornish mining engineers, Cornish miners, Breton fisherfolk, Devonian farmers, and a few landed Cornish gentry from her paternal grandfathers; she has Scottish doctors, Scottish army officers, at least one French person way back, a few hill farmers, and the entire Clan Armstrong from her paternal grandmother.
On my side: she has Geordie engineers, Geordie Miners, Yorkshire farmers, and someone Dutch a bit further back from my father; she's also got German, Dutch, Belgians and Italians from my mother's side, and, it was alleged but constantly denied by my Oma, some gypsies too, probably from Hungary.
She's a little European and British melting pot - as I am, and as so many of us are.

There are not that many families who can trace their lineage with accuracy back to the vikings or whatever - I get sick to death of all this "Britishness" because there really isn't such a thing if you think about it.
But there's no prejudice if the accent is considered intelligent and the skin colour is not black, brown, or anything other than pinkish.

I also get pissed off with the various nations being allocated skills or attributes that aren't actually there - I live with someone who is living breathing evidence that not all Welsh people can sing. Some of them just think they can. To my frequent pain.
Oh yes, to this, it's all so fraught that you mentally tiptoe around the contradictions for fear of choking on the what you might encounter. Deliberately mixed metaphor. And class is exactly the same. It's all bullshit, it's designed to,keep people in their place and because the people who want us that way are bone idle they expect us to manage and control and sustain these divisions. Some of my earliest memories are of the walk of shame for my mum and me from a valley train station, up the high street and out into the very edge of town where my grandparents lived. A lovely open minded and welcoming grandad and a hostile and pretentious grandmother. The whole race and class and colour thing was an unwieldy great lump of baggage for a very small child to carry, but a few things stood out, my grandfathers love, and the very kind gestures of our local grocer, who without fail would pick one of his best apples out for me, and dare his customers to say a word about it. And my clever mum who could see all that, and made sure I was mentally protected and politically aware enough to understand that there were social choices that could hold back some of that.

I was well aware that some of these divisions were visited on other people, too. There was the family at the end of the road that no ones children were allowed to play with, I never learned what their social crime was, but they came lower than we did. As did the fab black couple with a little girl I adored. And the school kids who got written off at five, for their background or origin or failure to read fast. But then when mum went to teach we encountered what still sticks out for me as the poorest people I ever encountered, slum dwellers dependent on foundry work, men turned alchoholic by thirty, their tired womenfolk old before their time and children with the unmistakeable signs of generational poverty, terrible teeth in a time of little sugar, and malnutrition. No trees in sight, all gaslight, outside loos and thick yellow smog. It wasn't all proud workers, a lot of it was grinding poverty.
fedup59
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by fedup59 »

SpinningHugo wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
fedup59 wrote: Many thanks Ephie – you’ve said very clearly more or less what I’ve been thinking and I was beginning to wonder if it was just me!

I think we’re being (have been) sold a big lie. Labour did not lose the election because of its policies, nor did it lose because they didn’t talk to, listen to and react to voter concerns and raise the abject failures of the Coalition. They lost because the media and those who own them used lies, propaganda and misinformation to make sure that most voters were unaware of the Coalition failures, were fed a constant diet of hatred of difference, within an underlying cultural lie that the Labour party could never really be in charge because they are not our natural leaders. The media stole the election and I find it really scary that nobody seems to think this is a big thing. I think it demonstrated that we are no longer a functioning democracy.

Everything now seems to have shifted into a great pretence that the result was based on rational decisions made by an informed electorate. The labour party have been taught they must fall into line and the analysis and reporting of the election completely ignores just how dangerously undemocratic the process was.

The main reason that I haven’t posted this week is that I’m deeply depressed that what can be so clearly seen is being swept away in another great lie. As far as I can see democracy has been debased in the furtherance of profit for the few and there is no real outcry.
I can't let this go without thanking you for writing my own thoughts about the 2015 GE. Many, many thanks.
Image
Ok let us assume, for the sake of argument, that that is all true.

What do we do?

My view is that we either rail pointlessly about the unfairness of it all on the internet,

Or, try and win in the world as it actually is.

Do you really not remember the same tired excuses being used post 1979, 1983, 1987, 1992?
I do indeed remember and the result of those ‘tired excuses’ (which I call into question as a definition for perfectly sound differing political viewpoints) and would point out that the same MSM forces were at play in defence of profit, the destruction of workers’ rights and the manipulation of political ‘reality’. Labour’s acceptance of the terms on offer in order to gain power was successful. But it appears now that what was achieved by stealth in the acceptable context of our current political reality has been masterfully easy to unravel (at the expenses of human lives).

I would also argue that because Labour accepted these terms and conditions it has been far easier for the Tories to destroy much more of our social infrastructure than even Thatcher could. Organisation beyond the political parties is now essential, grassroots activities, social movements - you know the kind of activism that brought the Labour Party into existence – is equally important if there is to be any rationale for a Labour Party’s existence beyond passive acceptance of a willingness to manage our inequality better.
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citizenJA
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by citizenJA »

SpinningHugo wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
fedup59 wrote: Many thanks Ephie – you’ve said very clearly more or less what I’ve been thinking and I was beginning to wonder if it was just me!

I think we’re being (have been) sold a big lie. Labour did not lose the election because of its policies, nor did it lose because they didn’t talk to, listen to and react to voter concerns and raise the abject failures of the Coalition. They lost because the media and those who own them used lies, propaganda and misinformation to make sure that most voters were unaware of the Coalition failures, were fed a constant diet of hatred of difference, within an underlying cultural lie that the Labour party could never really be in charge because they are not our natural leaders. The media stole the election and I find it really scary that nobody seems to think this is a big thing. I think it demonstrated that we are no longer a functioning democracy.

Everything now seems to have shifted into a great pretence that the result was based on rational decisions made by an informed electorate. The labour party have been taught they must fall into line and the analysis and reporting of the election completely ignores just how dangerously undemocratic the process was.

The main reason that I haven’t posted this week is that I’m deeply depressed that what can be so clearly seen is being swept away in another great lie. As far as I can see democracy has been debased in the furtherance of profit for the few and there is no real outcry.
I can't let this go without thanking you for writing my own thoughts about the 2015 GE. Many, many thanks.
Image
Ok let us assume, for the sake of argument, that that is all true.

What do we do?

My view is that we either rail pointlessly about the unfairness of it all on the internet,

Or, try and win in the world as it actually is.

Do you really not remember the same tired excuses being used post 1979, 1983, 1987, 1992?
Things eventually got better after those dates, SH, and change will come again; hopefully better change. We are in the process of discovering what reality is. I'm bewildered by the recent election & it's not because I'm not paying attention. fedup59, Ephemerid & I are posting our discoveries here. We can't do a damn thing properly if we don't know reality. We're looking at how life really is. We're not 'railing pointlessly on the Internet'. I've got a point & so do others on the thread; we give each other information, affirmation, 'is this what's going on for you?' & 'Yes, this is what's going on here'. With this information, we're able to communicate with others to arrange meetings, find resources & learn. What is it to win? A government election? Sure, okay, but who's winning it? It matters who wins. Not all governments are the same. I'll tell you plain, current government are dishonourable. They've not won this election fairly. I have no proof of this. Also, nearly 16 million registered voters didn't vote, SH. What's up with that? That's reality. Okay. Who are they? Why did they register to vote but not vote? Millions of registered voters apparently not voting is a reality of this election we'll investigate.

Image
I've called this one, Hugo.
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by AngryAsWell »

fedup59 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
citizenJA wrote:I can't let this go without thanking you for writing my own thoughts about the 2015 GE. Many, many thanks.
Image
Ok let us assume, for the sake of argument, that that is all true.

What do we do?

My view is that we either rail pointlessly about the unfairness of it all on the internet,

Or, try and win in the world as it actually is.

Do you really not remember the same tired excuses being used post 1979, 1983, 1987, 1992?
I do indeed remember and the result of those ‘tired excuses’ (which I call into question as a definition for perfectly sound differing political viewpoints) and would point out that the same MSM forces were at play in defence of profit, the destruction of workers’ rights and the manipulation of political ‘reality’. Labour’s acceptance of the terms on offer in order to gain power was successful. But it appears now that what was achieved by stealth in the acceptable context of our current political reality has been masterfully easy to unravel (at the expenses of human lives).

I would also argue that because Labour accepted these terms and conditions it has been far easier for the Tories to destroy much more of our social infrastructure than even Thatcher could. Organisation beyond the political parties is now essential, grassroots activities, social movements - you know the kind of activism that brought the Labour Party into existence – is equally important if there is to be any rationale for a Labour Party’s existence beyond passive acceptance of a willingness to manage our inequality better.
That is what Stella Creasy spoke about so very well, and why I changed my mind about her
SpinningHugo
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by SpinningHugo »

ohsocynical wrote:
@SpinningHugo


We didn't do too badly considering. You can't call a majority of ten a resounding success.
No.

It was disastrously bad. Any one of

(i) The rise of the Ukip

(ii) The collapse of the Lib Dems

(iii) Years of incompetence and austerity

Should have been enough to see a majority, let alone some swing back. As it was, the Tories got a majority.

It was shocking.

It takes some doing to completely lose Scotland AND fail to win over the English too.

Not just 5 wasted years, 5 years where we went even further back.
ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by ohsocynical »

ephemerid wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Another idle thought. We know the figures are fiddled. We know productivity is way down. We know there isn't enough work to go around.

What would the unemployment figures have been if IDS hadn't got his evil schemes off the ground?

Perhaps that's why Dave gave him the job and the social cleansing is an added bonus.

IDS has had 13 long years in opposition to cook up his schemes - he had his Paul-esque conversion the first time he went to Easterhouse way back in 2002 and was escorted around the estate by Bob Holman.
By 2012, just 2 years as DWP henchman-in-chief, he was vilified by Holman as having changed his views on why people like the Easterhouse residents are poor in a U-turn of epic proportions.
We will never know whether he actually truly cared on his first visit or if he has a previously unrecognised talent for acting - but his time in opposition was spent putting together his vicious programme.

Unemployment was 2.5 Million when Labour left office, with fallout from the crash still going on. There is no reason to assume it wouldn't have recovered anyway as things improved.
There are still about 800,000 on the JSA claimant count; there are 700,000 more people who have gone self-employed; there are 120,000 people on workfare or other programmes at any given time (many of whom are on "training allowances" ie. JSA by another name) so the number is pretty much the same.
It must be - the IB/ESA caseload is exactly the same as it was give or take a few hundred thousand. The only real change has been in the number of lone parents claiming Income Support, but they have been shuffled onto JSA earlier than they would have been under Labour.

Add to all that the excessive sanctions, with long-term sanctioned claimants coming off the register, there is not much change - IDS inherited 5 million on the main out-of-work benefits, and he still has that many. They've just been moved around.

I don't think the figures would have been much different - the truth is in there if you look past the headlines.
Thanks Ephie...Sorry I'm so innumerate. I've just tweeted it.

BTW. Did anyone tell you how to Tweet for FTN? if they haven't I'll have a go, I'll pm you and give you the password, but I can't do complicated like moving photos and charts around.
You definitely have to log in and log out because it's someone else's account you're using. According to Paul that's the only way to do it.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
SpinningHugo
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by SpinningHugo »

citizenJA wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
citizenJA wrote:I can't let this go without thanking you for writing my own thoughts about the 2015 GE. Many, many thanks.
Image
Ok let us assume, for the sake of argument, that that is all true.

What do we do?

My view is that we either rail pointlessly about the unfairness of it all on the internet,

Or, try and win in the world as it actually is.

Do you really not remember the same tired excuses being used post 1979, 1983, 1987, 1992?
Things eventually got better after those dates, SH, and change will come again; hopefully better change. We are in the process of discovering what reality is. I'm bewildered by the recent election & it's not because I'm not paying attention. fedup59, Ephemerid & I are posting our discoveries here. We can't do a damn thing properly if we don't know reality. We're looking at how life really is. We're not 'railing pointlessly on the Internet'. I've got a point & so do others on the thread; we give each other information, affirmation, 'is this what's going on for you?' & 'Yes, this is what's going on here'. With this information, we're able to communicate with others to arrange meetings, find resources & learn. What is it to win? A government election? Sure, okay, but who's winning it? It matters who wins. Not all governments are the same. I'll tell you plain, current government are dishonourable. They've not won this election fairly. I have no proof of this. Also, nearly 16 million registered voters didn't vote, SH. What's up with that? That's reality. Okay. Who are they? Why did they register to vote but not vote? Millions of registered voters apparently not voting is a reality of this election we'll investigate.

Image
I've called this one, Hugo.
Non voters are people who don't vote.

Hence the name.

Placing faith in them for victory is not sensible.
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citizenJA
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by citizenJA »

SpinningHugo wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
@SpinningHugo


We didn't do too badly considering. You can't call a majority of ten a resounding success.
No.

It was disastrously bad. Any one of

(i) The rise of the Ukip

(ii) The collapse of the Lib Dems

(iii) Years of incompetence and austerity

Should have been enough to see a majority, let alone some swing back. As it was, the Tories got a majority.

It was shocking.

It takes some doing to completely lose Scotland AND fail to win over the English too.

Not just 5 wasted years, 5 years where we went even further back.
I agree. This here. What you've written in this post. Yes. It's shocking. Bad as it can be.

edited to add
& I'm still standing & I won't quit working for justice. I'm not alone.
Last edited by citizenJA on Sun 17 May, 2015 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by AngryAsWell »

citizenJA wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
citizenJA wrote:I can't let this go without thanking you for writing my own thoughts about the 2015 GE. Many, many thanks.
Image
Ok let us assume, for the sake of argument, that that is all true.

What do we do?

My view is that we either rail pointlessly about the unfairness of it all on the internet,

Or, try and win in the world as it actually is.

Do you really not remember the same tired excuses being used post 1979, 1983, 1987, 1992?
Things eventually got better after those dates, SH, and change will come again; hopefully better change. We are in the process of discovering what reality is. I'm bewildered by the recent election & it's not because I'm not paying attention. fedup59, Ephemerid & I are posting our discoveries here. We can't do a damn thing properly if we don't know reality. We're looking at how life really is. We're not 'railing pointlessly on the Internet'. I've got a point & so do others on the thread; we give each other information, affirmation, 'is this what's going on for you?' & 'Yes, this is what's going on here'. With this information, we're able to communicate with others to arrange meetings, find resources & learn. What is it to win? A government election? Sure, okay, but who's winning it? It matters who wins. Not all governments are the same. I'll tell you plain, current government are dishonourable. They've not won this election fairly. I have no proof of this. Also, nearly 16 million registered voters didn't vote, SH. What's up with that? That's reality. Okay. Who are they? Why did they register to vote but not vote? Millions of registered voters apparently not voting is a reality of this election we'll investigate.

Image
I've called this one, Hugo.
In a way CJA, you have made Hugo's point for him, because - yes - things did get better after '92, and why? TB got elected in '97...........
(my brain is now spinning faster than Hugo's)
seeingclearly
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by seeingclearly »

ephemerid wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Another idle thought. We know the figures are fiddled. We know productivity is way down. We know there isn't enough work to go around.

What would the unemployment figures have been if IDS hadn't got his evil schemes off the ground?

Perhaps that's why Dave gave him the job and the social cleansing is an added bonus.

IDS has had 13 long years in opposition to cook up his schemes - he had his Paul-esque conversion the first time he went to Easterhouse way back in 2002 and was escorted around the estate by Bob Holman.
By 2012, just 2 years as DWP henchman-in-chief, he was vilified by Holman as having changed his views on why people like the Easterhouse residents are poor in a U-turn of epic proportions.
We will never know whether he actually truly cared on his first visit or if he has a previously unrecognised talent for acting - but his time in opposition was spent putting together his vicious programme.

Unemployment was 2.5 Million when Labour left office, with fallout from the crash still going on. There is no reason to assume it wouldn't have recovered anyway as things improved.
There are still about 800,000 on the JSA claimant count; there are 700,000 more people who have gone self-employed; there are 120,000 people on workfare or other programmes at any given time (many of whom are on "training allowances" ie. JSA by another name) so the number is pretty much the same.
It must be - the IB/ESA caseload is exactly the same as it was give or take a few hundred thousand. The only real change has been in the number of lone parents claiming Income Support, but they have been shuffled onto JSA earlier than they would have been under Labour.

Add to all that the excessive sanctions, with long-term sanctioned claimants coming off the register, there is not much change - IDS inherited 5 million on the main out-of-work benefits, and he still has that many. They've just been moved around.

I don't think the figures would have been much different - the truth is in there if you look past the headlines.
There are said to be large numbers of economically inactive young people, I'm remembering off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure that the article I saw pushed the figures up to over 4 million not in work. Economically inactive in this context was people not claiming any form of benefit and not in education, I think the figure for such people was approx a million and a half. An awful lot of hidden stuff there, families supporting young people rather than put them through the system? Well all those students rolling off are going somewhere, and they certainly don't all find work.
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citizenJA
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by citizenJA »

AngryAsWell wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: Ok let us assume, for the sake of argument, that that is all true.

What do we do?

My view is that we either rail pointlessly about the unfairness of it all on the internet,

Or, try and win in the world as it actually is.

Do you really not remember the same tired excuses being used post 1979, 1983, 1987, 1992?
Things eventually got better after those dates, SH, and change will come again; hopefully better change. We are in the process of discovering what reality is. I'm bewildered by the recent election & it's not because I'm not paying attention. fedup59, Ephemerid & I are posting our discoveries here. We can't do a damn thing properly if we don't know reality. We're looking at how life really is. We're not 'railing pointlessly on the Internet'. I've got a point & so do others on the thread; we give each other information, affirmation, 'is this what's going on for you?' & 'Yes, this is what's going on here'. With this information, we're able to communicate with others to arrange meetings, find resources & learn. What is it to win? A government election? Sure, okay, but who's winning it? It matters who wins. Not all governments are the same. I'll tell you plain, current government are dishonourable. They've not won this election fairly. I have no proof of this. Also, nearly 16 million registered voters didn't vote, SH. What's up with that? That's reality. Okay. Who are they? Why did they register to vote but not vote? Millions of registered voters apparently not voting is a reality of this election we'll investigate.

Image
I've called this one, Hugo.
In a way CJA, you have made Hugo's point for him, because - yes - things did get better after '92, and why? TB got elected in '97...........
(my brain is now spinning faster than Hugo's)
I don't mind. We've history to give us the story of Tony Blair's Labour government. We know more now. We know the Labour party can stray, get blown off course. What to watch out for. And we also have the investment Tony Blair's Labour government put into all the people in the UK. Blair wasn't a good man. He did some work I'm not ashamed of. Thank you.
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by Willow904 »

Legions of SNP voters cite Tony Blair's Tory lite policies as why Scottish voters have abandoned Labour and Spinning Hugo thinks it's Ed's fault the Tories now have a majority? Or the other Jewish son of immigrants would have been more acceptable to Ukip voters? As for chasing Tory votes, even the Tories are finding them a little thin on the ground, accounting for just 24% of those eligible to vote. Unless Spinning Hugo can conveniently arrange a John Major style sex scandal / house price crash, I'm thinking a 2nd Blairite style election victory could be a bit of a long shot - after all Blair had the luxury of starting out with Scottish and Ukip inclined support that he then rapidly lost. Is the next Blairite hopeful somehow supposed to enact the same trick in reverse? All we can do as a party is stick to our principles and pick the candidate who adheres to those principles and has the most ability in arguing their case and engendering confidence. The rest is down to what it always comes down to - events. And I think this term of parliament promises to be rather more eventful than the last. Having people of the calibre of Dan Jarvis and Keir Starmer on the Labour team gives me hope that the party is already finding new voices and a new direction. Ed has partly uncoupled the party from its Blair/Brown recent past. These new faces will help complete that, to my mind, very necessary job.

As for those on the left who don't support Labour, I can only hope that eventually they will come to appreciate just how radical Ed Miliband was in trying to stand up to the powerful vested interests in the media and the City.
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by PorFavor »

Goodnight, everyone.
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by tinyclanger2 »

PorFavor wrote:Goodnight, everyone.
very ceremonious.
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fedup59
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by fedup59 »

I didn't realise that's where Stella Creasey was coming from AAW (no telly/ radio at the moment) but I think it's the direction that needs to be travelled.

I have run out of tobacco and it's not pension day til Wednesday, so I'm going to bed in hope that it will come quicker.

I'm really glad this place exists - it's the only current politics I've been reading since the election. Not quite ready to face a real world that is made up of nonsense as yet, so thanks to all for the sanity! Night.
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citizenJA
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by citizenJA »

seeingclearly wrote:
ephemerid wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Another idle thought. We know the figures are fiddled. We know productivity is way down. We know there isn't enough work to go around.

What would the unemployment figures have been if IDS hadn't got his evil schemes off the ground?

Perhaps that's why Dave gave him the job and the social cleansing is an added bonus.

IDS has had 13 long years in opposition to cook up his schemes - he had his Paul-esque conversion the first time he went to Easterhouse way back in 2002 and was escorted around the estate by Bob Holman.
By 2012, just 2 years as DWP henchman-in-chief, he was vilified by Holman as having changed his views on why people like the Easterhouse residents are poor in a U-turn of epic proportions.
We will never know whether he actually truly cared on his first visit or if he has a previously unrecognised talent for acting - but his time in opposition was spent putting together his vicious programme.

Unemployment was 2.5 Million when Labour left office, with fallout from the crash still going on. There is no reason to assume it wouldn't have recovered anyway as things improved.
There are still about 800,000 on the JSA claimant count; there are 700,000 more people who have gone self-employed; there are 120,000 people on workfare or other programmes at any given time (many of whom are on "training allowances" ie. JSA by another name) so the number is pretty much the same.
It must be - the IB/ESA caseload is exactly the same as it was give or take a few hundred thousand. The only real change has been in the number of lone parents claiming Income Support, but they have been shuffled onto JSA earlier than they would have been under Labour.

Add to all that the excessive sanctions, with long-term sanctioned claimants coming off the register, there is not much change - IDS inherited 5 million on the main out-of-work benefits, and he still has that many. They've just been moved around.

I don't think the figures would have been much different - the truth is in there if you look past the headlines.
There are said to be large numbers of economically inactive young people, I'm remembering off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure that the article I saw pushed the figures up to over 4 million not in work. Economically inactive in this context was people not claiming any form of benefit and not in education, I think the figure for such people was approx a million and a half. An awful lot of hidden stuff there, families supporting young people rather than put them through the system? Well all those students rolling off are going somewhere, and they certainly don't all find work.
The most recent ONS figures linked below report 8,980,000 people between the ages of 16-64 are classified 'economically inactive'.
According to the latest ONS spreadsheets, 25.6% of those people want a job.
That's 2,298,000 people economically inactive wanting a job.
What does that do to unemployment figures, please?
Where to find data on economic inactivity
Economic inactivity estimates are available at Tables 1 and 13 of the pdf version of this statistical bulletin and at data tables A02 (1.47 Mb Excel sheet) and INAC01 (2.72 Mb Excel sheet) .

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lms/labou ... inactivity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by ohsocynical »

PorFavor wrote:Goodnight, everyone.

Night PF :)
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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citizenJA
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by citizenJA »

Same data from the ONS
UK Labour Market, May 2015
Part of Labour Market Statistics, May 2015 Release
Main points for January to March 2015

There were 1.83 million unemployed people.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lms/labou ... March-2015" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Add to economically inactive wants a job & that's 4,128,000 people without jobs wanting employment &/or meeting the internationally criteria for being classified as unemployed.

Now, don't even get me started about what counts as 'employment'...
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citizenJA
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by citizenJA »

fedup59 wrote:I didn't realise that's where Stella Creasey was coming from AAW (no telly/ radio at the moment) but I think it's the direction that needs to be travelled.

I have run out of tobacco and it's not pension day til Wednesday, so I'm going to bed in hope that it will come quicker.

I'm really glad this place exists - it's the only current politics I've been reading since the election. Not quite ready to face a real world that is made up of nonsense as yet, so thanks to all for the sanity! Night.
Goodnight, fedup59, thank you.
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citizenJA
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by citizenJA »

PorFavor wrote:Goodnight, everyone.
Goodnight, PorFavor
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

seeingclearly, and others. Just finished watching a wonderful TV programme which (sort of) follows on from the discussion we were having yesterday, Fighting for King and Empire: Britain's Caribbean Heroes; I've just spent an enchanting hour listening to these astonishing men describe their experiences during the war and after it. Restored a little of my faith in human nature.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... ean-heroes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by AngryAsWell »

fedup59 wrote:I didn't realise that's where Stella Creasey was coming from AAW (no telly/ radio at the moment) but I think it's the direction that needs to be travelled.

I have run out of tobacco and it's not pension day til Wednesday, so I'm going to bed in hope that it will come quicker.

I'm really glad this place exists - it's the only current politics I've been reading since the election. Not quite ready to face a real world that is made up of nonsense as yet, so thanks to all for the sanity! Night.
In the video Stella came across really well and changed my mind completely and I would like to see her stand to hear more about her.

Get yourself a vaporiser, even if you only use it for when you run out of tobacco its worth trying.
http://www.vapingliquid.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A good friend of mine was on 50 a day (yikes!) and now hasn't had a cig in over a year. They don't help you quit as she says the need for nicotine stays, but its a hell of a lot cheaper (depending on how much you smoke I suppose) and you can get them on the market (if you have a market) or there are vapeing shops open now, much cheaper than those in the link above. :)
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by AngryAsWell »

"Thousands of northerners have signed a petition which calls for the North of England to join an independent Scotland."
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As the SNP manifesto was a copy and past of the Labour manifesto why didn't they just vote Labour?
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by ohsocynical »

fedup59 wrote:I didn't realise that's where Stella Creasey was coming from AAW (no telly/ radio at the moment) but I think it's the direction that needs to be travelled.

I have run out of tobacco and it's not pension day til Wednesday, so I'm going to bed in hope that it will come quicker.

I'm really glad this place exists - it's the only current politics I've been reading since the election. Not quite ready to face a real world that is made up of nonsense as yet, so thanks to all for the sanity! Night.
I've pm'd you. Hope you read this tomorrow...
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by tinyclanger2 »

AngryAsWell wrote:"Thousands of northerners have signed a petition which calls for the North of England to join an independent Scotland."
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As the SNP manifesto was a copy and past of the Labour manifesto why didn't they just vote Labour?
Yeah we could join Scotland and call it - erm - Britain.

Jesus wept.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by AngryAsWell »

What a lovely tribute to Ed :)

I’ll always be a Milifan. Ed was the best prime minister we never had

Abby Tomlinson

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MsChin
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by MsChin »

Some interesting and useful discussion about the new Labour leadership on here recently - thanks all!
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by frightful_oik »

AngryAsWell wrote:"Thousands of northerners have signed a petition which calls for the North of England to join an independent Scotland."
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As the SNP manifesto was a copy and past of the Labour manifesto why didn't they just vote Labour?
Not right wing enough apparently. :lol:
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by ohsocynical »

David Head ‏@DavidHeadViews 16 mins16 minutes ago

Private Eye: RAF demand for jet fuel rising. Coalition govt sneakily sold militarily crucial Govt Pipeline & Storage System to Spanish firm

Going to pinch your signature tinyclanger

'KIN SEETHING
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by tinyclanger2 »

ohsocynical wrote:David Head ‏@DavidHeadViews 16 mins16 minutes ago

Private Eye: RAF demand for jet fuel rising. Coalition govt sneakily sold militarily crucial Govt Pipeline & Storage System to Spanish firm

Going to pinch your signature tinyclanger

'KIN SEETHING
Honoured. Thanks.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by RogerOThornhill »

ohsocynical wrote:David Head ‏@DavidHeadViews 16 mins16 minutes ago

Private Eye: RAF demand for jet fuel rising. Coalition govt sneakily sold militarily crucial Govt Pipeline & Storage System to Spanish firm

Going to pinch your signature tinyclanger

'KIN SEETHING
Good job we've never had a war with Spain eh?

Oh.

What is it with these free market loons that seem hellbent on selling everything to anyone even if they're foreign companies?

Does any other country have lunatics like this in charge?
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Kevin Brennan retweeted
UK Education Matters ‏@SchoolDuggery 1h1 hour ago
Wise words from @miss_mcinerney: "Why Morgan's plan to fire heads of 'coasting schools' relies on imaginary people" http://schoolsweek.co.uk/why-morgans-pl ... ng-school-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Working on the wild side.
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by RogerOThornhill »

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Kevin Brennan retweeted
UK Education Matters ‏@SchoolDuggery 1h1 hour ago
Wise words from @miss_mcinerney: "Why Morgan's plan to fire heads of 'coasting schools' relies on imaginary people" http://schoolsweek.co.uk/why-morgans-pl ... ng-school-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks - saw that earlier when I was posting on the Guardian story about it

http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... at-of-sack

I got a bit cross...
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Eric_WLothian
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by Eric_WLothian »

AngryAsWell wrote:Good news or bad news - depending on what side of the room you stand
Paul Douglas ‏@TVPaulD · May 10  Hounslow, London
Hearing @ed_miliband WILL seek to remain in frontline politics. Next Labour Leader best not oppose this, or *I* will oppose THEM #ThankYouEd
Why do party leaders find it necessary to resign immediately after their party is defeated in an election? Why not ask for a vote of confidence first and only resign if it's lost? If the party backed Ed's agenda before the election, his resignation seems to me to be premature. If they are now saying his agenda was wrong, the last 5 years (and possibly the next 5) have been wasted.

The same applies to Jim Murphy. A leadership battle within a year of the SE is crazy imo.
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by AngryAsWell »

ohsocynical wrote:David Head ‏@DavidHeadViews 16 mins16 minutes ago

Private Eye: RAF demand for jet fuel rising. Coalition govt sneakily sold militarily crucial Govt Pipeline & Storage System to Spanish firm

Going to pinch your signature tinyclanger

'KIN SEETHING
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.p ... issue=1286" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"But the government pressed on. Just before MPs rose for the last time before the election, it revealed that the Spanish firm Compañía Logística de Hidrocarburos (CLH) had bought the GPSS for £82m, sweetened by a ten-year contract from the Ministry of Defence which will rent space in the now privately-owned system for £237m, “ensuring national resilience is not compromised”. "

I'm not very numerate but that looks dodgy even to me!
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by ohsocynical »

RogerOThornhill wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:David Head ‏@DavidHeadViews 16 mins16 minutes ago

Private Eye: RAF demand for jet fuel rising. Coalition govt sneakily sold militarily crucial Govt Pipeline & Storage System to Spanish firm

Going to pinch your signature tinyclanger

'KIN SEETHING
Good job we've never had a war with Spain eh?

Oh.

What is it with these free market loons that seem hellbent on selling everything to anyone even if they're foreign companies?

Does any other country have lunatics like this in charge?
I can think of a few third world dictators but that's about all....
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by RogerOThornhill »

AngryAsWell wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:David Head ‏@DavidHeadViews 16 mins16 minutes ago

Private Eye: RAF demand for jet fuel rising. Coalition govt sneakily sold militarily crucial Govt Pipeline & Storage System to Spanish firm

Going to pinch your signature tinyclanger

'KIN SEETHING
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.p ... issue=1286" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"But the government pressed on. Just before MPs rose for the last time before the election, it revealed that the Spanish firm Compañía Logística de Hidrocarburos (CLH) had bought the GPSS for £82m, sweetened by a ten-year contract from the Ministry of Defence which will rent space in the now privately-owned system for £237m, “ensuring national resilience is not compromised”. "

I'm not very numerate but that looks dodgy even to me!
I'm assuming that the £237m is for the 10 year rental. Still wouldn't have sold it though.

For Sale - the UK. All of it. Bit surprised that they didn't see that NHS company which owns all the land - that'll come soon.
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by seeingclearly »

utopiandreams wrote:
thatchersorphan wrote:... The removal of housing benefit from young jobseekers would potentially put around £69m of annual social household rental income under threat,
My major concern with this is that it probably exemplifies another false premise, typical of most of Cameron's argument. You can see why I've queried the strength of his Oxford First, you simply cannot get away with it in more technical or scientific branches (not politics, but I have rubbed shoulders with some Oxford professors).

The argument as presented portrays youngsters leaving parents to establish their own home whilst claiming benefits. I expect there are none doing so whilst claiming JSA and relatively few working then applying for HB to leave home. Typical of Cameron, Osborne and their batman IDS, use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. What they fail to say is that youngsters who have already worked and had the wherewithall to move on shall be in a very precarious position should they for any reason lose their job.

Edit: I forget myself, only should Mummy and Daddy not be rich enough to support them.
If you are going to look at this particular issue with anything like a logical mind, what they are expecting young people on low incomes or in precarious work is to break with everything that normal human young adults do, i.e. Reach a point of maturity where they express their adulthood by becoming independent of their parents. This is a basic instinct, but these tossers we have at the top think it's ok to reduce that to some very dubious fiscal equation. I'm so incensed by this. Apart from the damage to young people, especially young males for failing to achieve that independence and other knock on effects in terms of relationships, children and much more will be immense it is already showing up in statistics. My head really hurts these days from knowing this stuff. :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
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Re: Saturday 16th, and Sunday 17th. May Weekend Edition.

Post by AngryAsWell »

Bloody hell, so glad I'm not religious! The comments under this article are horrible in the lack of any shred of empathy.

An open letter from a disabled Christian to Conservative voters

http://archbishopcranmer.com/an-open-le ... ve-voters/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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