Monday 18th May 2015

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refitman
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Monday 18th May 2015

Post by refitman »

Morning all.
utopiandreams
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by utopiandreams »

Good morning.

Some of you may have noticed that from its shabby risk register and throughout implementation I've been fixated on the so-called Bedroom Tax. Not on a personal level as I'm not sure that I know people affected but from its outset it was blatantly obvious it couldn't and wouldn't achieve its aims, whether there be tenants downsizing or savings to the, let's call it welfare, budget.

The risk register correctly identified rent arrears as the most likely outcome but completely overlooked such impact on tenants or providers of social housing. Recognising such difficulties, DHP was introduced and subsequently increased as the realities began to unfold. Even then there was no assessment of the increased burden that homelessness makes on local authorities let alone the human cost.

Cameron repeatedly stated at the dispatch box that the disabled would be unaffected, then that temporary and discretionary payments would protect them when they were supposedly unaffected at all. Constantly repeated statements of drops in child poverty still abound when evidence proves otherwise, yet this government still wants to go further whilst gradually reducing DHP.

As I've said before no notion of fairness, if that's what Tories believe, is worth the human cost even if the DWP make savings. Their budgets are barely affected leaving other departments to pick up greater additional ones. IDS may be rightfully targeted as responsible but is merely Cameron's and Osborne's baggage handler doing as they command. I truly despair.

Social landlords expect cuts to trigger new wave of homelessness : http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... melessness
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ephemerid
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by ephemerid »

Good morning Dan, and all.

Today is "TCBBAC saves Our NHS Day"!

Cameron will be telling us today that we are going to have a truly safe and wonderful health service as efficient at the weekends as it is during the week, lots more doctors and nurses will be working in hospitals 24/7 all week long and the NHS is not just safe with him but much better!
He is going to do this by giving the NHS £8 Billion over the life of this Parliament. That's £1.6 Billion a year.
He can't tell us exactly where that's coming from, obviously, because that's George's job, not his.

There are hundreds of acute trusts, foundation trusts, mental health trusts, primary trusts, ambulance trusts, health boards, CCGs, etc.etc. across the UK, all sharing just £1.6 Billion a year - whilst dealing with PFI debts, increased demand, and spending efficiency expectations.
The Nicholson Challenge failed to deliver the £22 Billion in "efficiency" savings; the Kings Fund estimates there will be a funding gap of £30 Billion by 2020 unless "significant change" occurs; the Better Care Fund will come out of existing NHS funding; agency staff will continue to be employed thanks to a lack of qualified professionals; outsourcing will continue with the assumption of profit built in to contracts.

That money Cameron talks about, the source of which we have yet to discover, will evaporate like the morning mist.

I will be interested to hear what Robert has to say about all this.

Weekends are less safe for some patients because staffing is often cut on the basis that no elective procedures take place; consultant cover is thus deemed unnecessary in areas outside A&E and ITU; operating theatres are closed often with just one functioning and emergency cases waiting a long tome for surgery; bed occupancy rates are kept high during the week for efficiency; beds are blocked due to cuts elsewhere; there are very few mental health care beds available; emergency admissions wait longer with less treatment and that alone poses a risk; GP out-of-hours cover is OK in most places but many people won't use the 111 service because it's crap and the unqualified responders invariably tell you to go to A&E if you can't see a GP; on and on it goes, and £8 Billion won't fix it.

If Cameron thinks that £1.6 Billion a year across the NHS in the UK will result in 24/7 consultant cover, open GP surgeries, salaried nursing and medical cover on all wards, faster ambulance response, outpatient clinics all weekend, operating theatres at full stretch seven days a week, and magic up the hundreds of elderly care and acute mental health care beds that are needed, he is mad.
If he isn't mad, then he knows something we don't - like: cuts in out-of-hours pay rates, regional pay differentials, a change in the way waiting lists work to obscure rising demand, more outsourcing of elective care, whatever.

He is doing this because he wants us to believe that the NHS is safe in his hands. We know it isn't. We know what happened over the last Parliament, and all his rhetoric now will not re-write history.
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
seeingclearly
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

Tories may axe 100000 civil servants over the next half decade Union warns

http://www.welfareweekly.com/tories-may ... ion-warns/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by utopiandreams »

@ephemerid

Since one of the points you raised, ephe, was the increased budget with no indication of where their figures are plucked, let us just remind ourselves of the last parliament. A couple of years into the last government Cameron constantly repeated, at the dispatch box no less, that an extra £4.5bn had been added to the NHS budget (I may be mistaken but may recall it being £2.5 or so earlier) soon to be replaced by the £12.5 to £12.7bn throughout the rest of the term. I'm sure I wasn't alone in noticing that throughout the election campaign a new figure of £7bn was repeated time and again as though the sometimes referred to as £13bn had never existed at all.

Edit: just to clarify the newly stated £7bn was their account of the last government and not a proposal.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by utopiandreams »

seeingclearly wrote:Tories may axe 100000 civil servants over the next half decade Union warns

http://www.welfareweekly.com/tories-may ... ion-warns/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It seems we just go around and around, seeingclearly, so here I am repeating myself once again. With particular regard to the higher echelons of the civil service they have been replaced by spad-like apparatchiks. It is no wonder this government is poor at the job. 'And to think that Cameron got a First in PPE. I'd always thought such qualifications were indication of a propensity for suchlike.

Edit: of course never having studied politics myself I confuse the good of the nation with plots and underhanded schemes, something that Cameron does excel at.
Last edited by utopiandreams on Mon 18 May, 2015 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ephemerid
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by ephemerid »

utopian dreams - the DHP is to be cut again.

It wasn't enough last time at £145 Million, and was increased to £165 Million. It is now being cut for this financial year to £125 million.
DHP funding was supposed to bridge the gap while tenants moved to (allegedly) more suitable housing.
As most of them couldn't, LAs and HAs supported them pro tem but are now having to evict them.

At the same time, IDS intends to impose the Under Occupation Penalty on a further 400,000 people - as yet, we don't know who they are.
The largest single group of over-occupiers on HB was and is pensioners. I suspect they will be the group he targets, and DHP funding may have to ringfenced for them; IDS won't want to see headlines about pensioners being evicted, so he'll probably impose some rule to stop it happening and insist that they get first dibs on any DHP funding. The other option is imposing the tax on anyone who over-occupies - so people who pay their own rent now may have to pay a premium for their extra rooms.

This is a nasty example of DWP mission creep - get the sick, disabled, unemployed, and poor out; replace them with people on the waiting lists who have jobs and who pay their own rent; put them on shorter tenancies so they have to move out if their circumstances improve - and all this is consistent with IDS's mission to get the people he doesn't approve of out of sight and to "reward hard work" etc.etc.

Bastards, the lot of them.
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by utopiandreams »

@ephemerid

Thanks again for putting figures to what I merely allude to.
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Morning folks. I'm posting this from late last night again. Just have a look at the comments BTL ... you would think we had all - yes all of us - voted Tory south of the border. Very pleased to see that Pembs Paul quietly and politely points out that the ban on hunting in Scotland was put in place by a minority Labour government at Holyrood.
SNP fails at first challenge in Westminster
http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2015/05/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... stminster/

Some of us knew the Scottish Nationalists were more full of wind than bagpipes, but now we’re all seeing the evidence of it.

It seems the 56 members of the SNP who managed to con their countryfolk into electing them to the Westminster Parliament are set to betray the rest of the United Kingdom in the worst possible way – or betray their own “principled” position – over fox hunting.

Everyone in the UK should be aware, by now, that the Conservative Government is planning to repeal the Hunting Act 2004, in which hunting foxes with dogs was banned in England and Wales.

Scotland banned hunting in 2002, therefore supporters of the SNP merrily told the rest of us that the Parliamentary SNP would be holding to its “principled” position, and would be abstaining from the vote on whether to repeal the ban...
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 44m44 minutes ago
Signif. Jeremy Hunt suggesting GP 7-day service will be provided not necessarily by GPs but by 'physicians assistants' + nurses
There you go Ephemerid.

The emperor's clothes were being revealed as you wrote ...
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by utopiandreams »

@HappyChickie

Okay, chickie, since you're wanting correctly stated facts, perhaps you can explain the £12.7bn over the lifetime of the last parliament, which never changed despite new announcements of further funds for each new crisis and how it magically was reduced to an historic £7bn during the election campaign?

You want facts? Well so do I. Care to clarify?

Edit: question mark.
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ephemerid
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by ephemerid »

utopiandreams wrote:@ephemerid

Since one of the points you raised, ephe, was the increased budget with no indication of where their figures are plucked, let us just remind ourselves of the last parliament. A couple of years into the last government Cameron constantly repeated, at the dispatch box no less, that an extra £4.5bn had been added to the NHS budget (I may be mistaken but may recall it being £2.5 or so earlier) soon to be replaced by the £12.5 to £12.7bn throughout the rest of the term. I'm sure I wasn't alone in noticing that throughout the election campaign a new figure of £7bn was repeated time and again as though the sometimes referred to as £13bn had never existed at all.

Edit: just to clarify the newly stated £7bn was their account of the last government and not a proposal.

STOP PRESS!!!!! I have made a very silly mistake ref. my post on the NHS. D'oh.

The newly announced funding is £8 Billion a year - which raises two new questions.....

Where will Osborne find this cash every year? There is no way he can cut over and above the £12BN he's planning to cut from benefits (which is not likely to save more than a billion or so anyway) so it won't be that.

Will the £8 Billion be anywhere near enough to do all the things Cameron says he'll do?

Robert - Au Secours!
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by utopiandreams »

@HappyChickie

I notice that in the picture you included to highlight the annual figure, Cameron is bragging about the size of his penis again. Don't bother coming back because I shan't read any more of your contributions, besides your correctly quoted figures strengthen ephe's arguments of where, or not, they're to be found.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by RogerOThornhill »

I see the organ grinder has taken the day off and sent his monkey instead.

So where's the money coming from again?

Oh...you didn't say.

Shocked etc.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by utopiandreams »

HappyChickie wrote:... I don't have to explain anything. I was correcting what was clearly wrong in its post. Nothing more, nothing less.

It is 8 billion a year over this parliament, not 8 billion total.

HP
Okay maybe I have still read another of your posts but didn't you say, "Always happy to help"? So why not when posed a genuine question?
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Willow904
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by Willow904 »

Morning all.

I don't know if anyone can help, but I'm trying to find out how many postal ballots were issued for the election and how many were returned. Does anyone know what organisation is responsible for collating this information, because it was widely reported in the press in 2010 but I can't find any reference to this information for 2015 at all when I try googling it. The information must be available somewhere, even if the press aren't interested in reporting it. I know it's a little thing, but unless you crunch all the numbers I can't see how you can begin to understand how this unexpected result came about.
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

John Rentoul ‏@JohnRentoul 8m8 minutes ago
Irish exit from EU might become inevitable if Britain quits – Irish business leader tells German newspaper http://www.irishtimes.com/business/econ ... -1.2213938" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
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frightful_oik
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by frightful_oik »

HappyChickie wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:@HappyChickie

I notice that in the picture you included to highlight the annual figure, Cameron is bragging about the size of his penis again. Don't bother coming back because I shan't read any more of your contributions, besides your correctly quoted figures strengthen ephe's arguments of where, or not, they're to be found.

LOL. That is the trouble with this site. A mistake is pointed out and all hell breaks loose with the insults.

Nice - NOT!
I think the insults are for your being a twat in general, not for being a twat in this particular instance. Hope that clarifies matters for you.
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Nurses may call strike if Government tries to cut pay as David Cameron vows to deliver 'truly seven-day NHS' plans
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 56874.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nurses will take industrial action if the Government tries to cut pay to deliver its election promise of a “truly seven-day NHS”, the leader of Britain’s biggest nursing union has warned.

In what he called “a strong warning to the Secretary of State”, Dr Peter Carter, the general secretary of the Royal College of Nursing, told The Independent that any “attacks on unsocial hours or weekend working payments” would be a “red line” for nurses.

His comments raise the prospect of an unprecedented strike, at a time when the Government – eager to change the law to make it harder for workers in essential public services to walk out – faces action from rail workers and teachers.

... Before the election Mr Hunt made it clear that, once in Government, he would prioritise NHS staffing numbers, not pay. He refused to rule out any further real-term cuts, arguing that allowing pay to increase too fast would necessitate cutting jobs, putting patient safety at risk.

Much will depend on how quickly the Government can deliver its promised extra funding. Mr Hunt has committed to Mr Stevens’ £8bn a year, but this figure is predicated on efficiency savings of £22bn and it is not clear where these would be found.

To save a similar amount over the past five years, the NHS was forced to hold back pay, and slash the amount of money hospitals are paid to deliver services. With dozens of hospitals already in financial deficit, and with the threat of industrial action, it is unlikely such strategies could be deployed again without either a damaging decline in service quality or in staff morale.
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TechnicalEphemera
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

HappyChickie wrote:
frightful_oik wrote:
HappyChickie wrote:
LOL. That is the trouble with this site. A mistake is pointed out and all hell breaks loose with the insults.

Nice - NOT!
I think the insults are for your being a twat in general, not for being a twat in this particular instance. Hope that clarifies matters for you.
The shrieking leftie way. Clear something up and out come the rudeness, insults, and usual crap.
Its amusing to see you all get worked up into a frenzy over a correction.

Have a nice day all.

PS. I'm looking forward that that budget in July coming up, I might just take the day off to read the shrieking, frothing and baying at the sky that is bound to happen here.

LOL

Happy Chickie.
Actually your 8bn a year is highly questionable. It has been quoted both ways by the media. Since 8bn a year is 40bn over the parliament I find it odd that Dave never used the latter figure ( as is the normal mode of operation).

A Cameron tweet is not exactly proof of anything (he has form for saying one thing and doing the opposite). I guess we will see an increase of 8bn forecast in Osbornes second budget of the year. Until them it is all just PR bullshit.
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mikems
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by mikems »

HappyChickie,

Where is this 8 billion coming from?
pk1
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by pk1 »

Won't you lot ever learn to ignore trolls ? Reacting to them is exactly what they want !

The poll we had on troll posts was for those posts to be moved but until there is a moderator here to move those posts, I strongly suggest you ignore the poster.

For various reasons, this place has been a no-go area for much of the weekend for me & quite possibly others too - please don't allow a few troll posts to make it worse.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by mikems »

Oh, you were lying, I see.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by mikems »

Why is it still able to login then?
pk1
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by pk1 »

On the £8bn by 2020:

This is dependent upon £22bn of 'efficiencies' isn't it ?

Cutting £22bn in order to be rewarded with £8bn is a piss-poor deal imo.
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ephemerid
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by ephemerid »

pk1 wrote:Won't you lot ever learn to ignore trolls ? Reacting to them is exactly what they want !

The poll we had on troll posts was for those posts to be moved but until there is a moderator here to move those posts, I strongly suggest you ignore the poster.

For various reasons, this place has been a no-go area for much of the weekend for me & quite possibly others too - please don't allow a few troll posts to make it worse.

On the trolls, I agree.

I'm sad you felt the weekend was a problem - if I've caused offence, I apologise.

Could you tell us what the problem is? Maybe we can sort it out. I like you and your postings. We're poorer without them.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Surprised our troll didn't visit this morning to hype up the "big bad union bogeyman" like the Tory papers they doubtless read and believe religiously ;)

Seriously, the MSM ignorance about how the current Labour leadership election works is staggering. Its done by OMOV now, everybody!
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by pk1 »

ephemerid wrote:
pk1 wrote:Won't you lot ever learn to ignore trolls ? Reacting to them is exactly what they want !

The poll we had on troll posts was for those posts to be moved but until there is a moderator here to move those posts, I strongly suggest you ignore the poster.

For various reasons, this place has been a no-go area for much of the weekend for me & quite possibly others too - please don't allow a few troll posts to make it worse.

On the trolls, I agree.

I'm sad you felt the weekend was a problem - if I've caused offence, I apologise.

Could you tell us what the problem is? Maybe we can sort it out. I like you and your postings. We're poorer without them.
I wasn't offended. I can no longer cope with aggression & anger so when it rears it's head, I duck mine back below the water line ;)
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by frightful_oik »

Prof. Ham of the King's Fund on R4 today:
Prof Ham said the £8bn pledge is "to be welcomed, but that will really help to keep existing services running, it won't fund all the new commitments we've heard of during the election campaign including seven-day working".

He also said there was "real workforce shortage" in some fields, with hospitals "already struggling to recruit enough senior medical staff".
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by frightful_oik »

Apologies for engaging avec the mucky duck.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by mikems »

This one is pretty blooming thick though, isn't it? It came on and trotted out an easily exposed lie, then went into the usual 'I'm the victim being badly treated by lefties' routine and that was that.

I don't object to idiots like that - they can't harm us. But if it is succeeding in upsetting decent people, then it should be binned pronto,
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by citizenJA »

Good-morning, everyone.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

citizenJA wrote:Good-morning, everyone.
And the same to you - shame its pissing down here ;)
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

pk1 wrote:
ephemerid wrote:
pk1 wrote:Won't you lot ever learn to ignore trolls ? Reacting to them is exactly what they want !

The poll we had on troll posts was for those posts to be moved but until there is a moderator here to move those posts, I strongly suggest you ignore the poster.

For various reasons, this place has been a no-go area for much of the weekend for me & quite possibly others too - please don't allow a few troll posts to make it worse.

On the trolls, I agree.

I'm sad you felt the weekend was a problem - if I've caused offence, I apologise.

Could you tell us what the problem is? Maybe we can sort it out. I like you and your postings. We're poorer without them.
I wasn't offended. I can no longer cope with aggression & anger so when it rears it's head, I duck mine back below the water line ;)
Sorry pk if my anger expressed (after being kept under for quite a while) about the removal of community health services from here upset you. I didn't intend it to hurt others - and I'm very aware yahyah beat a retreat too (I did PM her so I hope she sees that). I do self censor what I post here quite a bit already - for various reasons. I'll try and do a better job from now on. Apologies again.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by Lonewolfie »

Morfternoon all

@dippychuckup

Further proof (if any were needed) of the inability of TCBBAC and his merry band of a***-kissers to actually do 'counting' and 'thinking'...dunno, but I think that if TCBBAC and Gidiot asked the banks return a proportion of the £50,000,000,000 created from the Magic Money Tree and given to them free of charge, some of the mythical 'no money left' issues would recede...or maybe they could just print some more....but NHS isn't a bank and TCBBAC and the crew haven't got shares in it (yet?).

...and I agree - it (and its alternative personas) need to be quarantined.

...and as for SH and the 'disaaaaster' (darling?)....as someone has pointed out above...'79, '83, '87, '92 and 2010 were all 'lost' by anti-Murkydochians....shocked, I tell you!...and the BBC seems to have come over all concerned about the NHS (R5/Adrian Chiles)....Risk Register/H&SC2012 anyone?

...and apologies for the brevity (and if none of this is legible) but....here in hope (reduced but still going :) ) today should have been a better day.

Miliband getting the keys to No 10 - nope, that didn't work - step forward Clouncy Funt and take a bow for oppressing hope...

...and...

today is the Wolfies birthday....and I'm off to a funeral...so please, no 'congrats' (partly as I won't be back 'til tomorrow, and partly because it's not really a 'celebration' when you're on your way to see off a dear departed friend :( )

FTN - you :rock:

TTFN
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Surprised our troll didn't visit this morning to hype up the "big bad union bogeyman" like the Tory papers they doubtless read and believe religiously ;)

Seriously, the MSM ignorance about how the current Labour leadership election works is staggering. Its done by OMOV now, everybody!
It is and I'm very glad about that change (thank you Ed and co). But I've just said to Mr Riots that I'm going to get rid of my Unite membership now - which I've kept going even though I'm no longer 'employed' but working for myself. I just don't want to be part of / support the argy bargy in any way.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by utopiandreams »

pk1 wrote:On the £8bn by 2020:

This is dependent upon £22bn of 'efficiencies' isn't it ?

Cutting £22bn in order to be rewarded with £8bn is a piss-poor deal imo.
Which begs the question, pk1, whether or not his includes the £20bn of efficiency savings from the Nichoison challenge inherited from the previous Labour government or is this another presentation of previously announced figures as new, as is often the case with Dave and George?

Furthermore if we added the unannounced Treasury clawbacks of NHS underspends during the last term (while hospital trusts suffered deficits) to the £7bn stated during the campaign, we still do not arrive at the £12.7bn that was repeatedly given at the dispatch box. Some would think an acting Prime Minister should be above such things.
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utopiandreams
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by utopiandreams »

pk1 wrote:... I wasn't offended. I can no longer cope with aggression & anger so when it rears it's head, I duck mine back below the water line ;)
I don't remember any, pk1, perhaps one or two different views expressed but we're not all alike? Maybe I'm too thick-skinned to notice so apologies if I'm part of the problem. As other have said, please don't shy away.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

I'm being pleasantly surprised by Harman's stewardship. What do others think?
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by mikems »

It will be interesting to see if the government is going to be the target of international condemnation for starving the sick and disabled into non-existent jobs. Also, if their supporters will be quite so keen when they see children starving in the streets...and not getting the treatment they need for their families.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Angela Eagle ‏@angelaeagle 3m3 minutes ago
Excited to launch my campaign to be Labour's new deputy leader: " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … #imwithangela
It's getting to be a pretty full field for deputy leader.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by Willow904 »

In 2005 the Tories won 198 seats with 8.7m votes

In 2015 Labour won 232 seats with 9.3m votes.

Comparisons with Labour defeats of the past are unhelpful, especially as multi-party politics appears to be here to stay. If the Tories were able to recover from 198 seats in 5 years, why can't Labour recover from 232? When the Tories won, I actually thought the papers might ease off on the Labour bashing for a bit, seeing as they're safe from Leveson implementation for at least 5 years now, but no, it's still going on. If Labour lost so convincingly, if Ed's move to the left so disastrous, what are they so afraid of that they have to keep up the anti-union, anti-left-wing propaganda? Are they actually afraid Labour might choose to stay where Ed pitched them and manage to win next time? God knows. But as one of very many Labour voters (1/3 of eligible voters) I'm fed up of people telling me my views and my choice of party is too left-wing/too right-wing. Clearly, for 9.3m voters it was just right. Surely that should be the starting point for rebuilding the party, by ensuring you keep the voters you already have, instead of pandering to those who voted for someone else at the expense of those who didn't? Labour needs to add to their core message and policies to embrace more views, not dump their current voters in favour of some hypothetical shangri-la voter that we don't even know exists. Those who wish to shift Labour to the right refuse to accept this. That Ed convinced many of us to stay who otherwise wouldn't have. That magical Tory-tending voters wouldn't have swept Labour back to power because they tend to vote Tory (unless their house price plummets). The challenge for Labour is re-engaging with those who have been wooed away by the nationalist parties of the SNP and Ukip. I see no other way to rebuild the party. A Blairite type would be toxic for such a project. I'm unconvinced by Andy Burnham's ability as a leader, but at the moment he seems the most likely candidate for the current job. I can forgive him dumping Ed's principled stand on an EU referendum if he sticks to Ed's policy of repealing the Health and Social Care Act. Meeting Kippers half way is much less anathema to me than meeting Blairites half way - I steadfastly refuse to support a party that is willing to allow the privatisation of the NHS.

Sorry for the ramble - I'm just getting my thoughts straight as much as anything else! (Still can't find those postal ballot turnout figures - am I going to have to wait until the Electoral Commission files its report in July?)
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

mikems wrote:It will be interesting to see if the government is going to be the target of international condemnation for starving the sick and disabled into non-existent jobs. Also, if their supporters will be quite so keen when they see children starving in the streets...and not getting the treatment they need for their families.
I think the problems that seeingclearly was pointing out re the removal of housing benefit from under 25s (or is it under 21s?) will cause could make people who've been disinterested in the 'welfare' arguments start to care.

It puts parents / carers of young people in a very difficult position if they don't have money to spare and job opportunities are scarce where they live. There will be no support for a child who has already left home to get a job but is then made redundant ... or who wants to leave home to get a job but doesn't have the means to support themselves while they try. That's a real stuck situation for all concerned. It wouldn't matter so much if rents weren't so high - but they are and will be staying that way it seems.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by utopiandreams »

mikems wrote:It will be interesting to see if the government is going to be the target of international condemnation for starving the sick and disabled into non-existent jobs. Also, if their supporters will be quite so keen when they see children starving in the streets...and not getting the treatment they need for their families.
Add to that corporate-run prisons, mikems, with inmates working for a pittance reducing the number of even more workplace jobs. There again Dave must have his shirts made somewhere, I guess.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by PorFavor »

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Angela Eagle ‏@angelaeagle 3m3 minutes ago
Excited to launch my campaign to be Labour's new deputy leader: " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … #imwithangela
It's getting to be a pretty full field for deputy leader.
Yes, it is. Probably just as well, then, that Ben Bradshaw didn't make his announced announcement. (Or did he do it so quietly that I failed to notice it?)
PorFavor
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by PorFavor »

Good morfternoon.

It's absolutely pissing down here, too.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by pk1 »

rebeccariots2 wrote:I'm being pleasantly surprised by Harman's stewardship. What do others think?
She has risen well above my expectations :)

As to anger - it needs to be released so no apologies required or expected !!
Last edited by pk1 on Mon 18 May, 2015 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by Willow904 »

rebeccariots2 wrote:I'm being pleasantly surprised by Harman's stewardship. What do others think?
She's getting to be an old hand at this acting leader after Labour defeat malarky, so one would hope she has more than a little bit of an idea of what she's doing. I really hope she takes the opportunity to be a full-on proper leader this time and not just do a caretaker role. She is currently in the position of leader by right, she's earned it, so I hope she doesn't hold back but gets on and leads the party as she thinks fit.
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by citizenJA »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Good-morning, everyone.
And the same to you - shame its pissing down here ;)
Same here - it'll stop soon.

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TheGrimSqueaker
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Re: Monday 18th May 2015

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

Morning all.
Willow904 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:I'm being pleasantly surprised by Harman's stewardship. What do others think?
She's getting to be an old hand at this acting leader after Labour defeat malarky, so one would hope she has more than a little bit of an idea of what she's doing. I really hope she takes the opportunity to be a full-on proper leader this time and not just do a caretaker role. She is currently in the position of leader by right, she's earned it, so I hope she doesn't hold back but gets on and leads the party as she thinks fit.
Piece up at LabourList talking about the leadership elections, and how the public will have a bigger role in what happens this time; a reassuring move, considering the noises that had been coming from Progress, looks like they won't be getting it all their own way.

http://labourlist.org/2015/05/harman-sa ... -election/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I see we've had a visitation, despite it saying (in many voices) that it was going away. If it is staying, maybe it should get itself an avatar? Got a couple of suggestions here to help out.
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