Thursday 21st May 2015

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refitman
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Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by refitman »

Morning all.
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ephemerid
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by ephemerid »

And good morning to you, Refitman.

TCBBAC is getting tough on immigration. Very very tough indeed. He's inventing new offences and allsorts......
He is going to get much much tougher on illegal immigrants.
Well, the ones he can find, that is. With less police etc.

That aside, he can do absolutely nothing about net migration, which is 298,000. Which is in fact legal.
All those people had every right to come here and work.
Just as 327,000 Brits had every right to leave the UK.

In order to achieve the ambitions he set out today (which are the same ones he pledged in 2010 and told us to boot him out of office if he didn't keep them) he has decided to do some new stuff.
Councils will be required to crack down on rogue landlords who house illegal immigrants (Labour's idea); there will be a crack down - he likes crack downs - on exploitation of foreign workers paid NMW and tied to accommodation (Labour's idea); no businesses or agencies will able to recruit from abroad without advertising here first (Labour's idea).
Apart from, erm, not much, what he is planning are mainly Labour's ideas. Including new rules on claiming benefits.

Illegal immigrants are already illegal, so if they work they will be charged with a new offence of illegal working. Which is already illegal.
This means that any illegal money they earn is the proceeds of a crime, and the new rules will be that their money from this crime can be seized.
Apparently, this is a whole new thing that will invent new crimes which are already illegal things and therefore crimes. Already.

That'll stop 'em!
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
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frightful_oik
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by frightful_oik »

ephemerid wrote:And good morning to you, Refitman.

TCBBAC is getting tough on immigration. Very very tough indeed. He's inventing new offences and allsorts......
He is going to get much much tougher on illegal immigrants.
Well, the ones he can find, that is. With less police etc.

That aside, he can do absolutely nothing about net migration, which is 298,000. Which is in fact legal.
All those people had every right to come here and work.
Just as 327,000 Brits had every right to leave the UK.

In order to achieve the ambitions he set out today (which are the same ones he pledged in 2010 and told us to boot him out of office if he didn't keep them) he has decided to do some new stuff.
Councils will be required to crack down on rogue landlords who house illegal immigrants (Labour's idea); there will be a crack down - he likes crack downs - on exploitation of foreign workers paid NMW and tied to accommodation (Labour's idea); no businesses or agencies will able to recruit from abroad without advertising here first (Labour's idea).
Apart from, erm, not much, what he is planning are mainly Labour's ideas. Including new rules on claiming benefits.

Illegal immigrants are already illegal, so if they work they will be charged with a new offence of illegal working. Which is already illegal.
This means that any illegal money they earn is the proceeds of a crime, and the new rules will be that their money from this crime can be seized.
Apparently, this is a whole new thing that will invent new crimes which are already illegal things and therefore crimes. Already.

That'll stop 'em!
I bet TCC did his 'stern and a bit cross' face when he announced it. :toss:
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Morning. This is an interesting piece. You will need to suspend distrust of polls while you read as the analysis and commentary is based on polling ... but carried out on election day itself.
Why did the voters reject Labour?
In voters’ eyes, Labour’s problem over the last five years was too little change, not too much.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... ect-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some key paras suggest why the current leadership candidates are saying some of the things they are.
... With most people thinking the economy is improving, and inflation near zero, fifty-seven per cent of voters think the Tories ‘competent’.

The problem is just 31 per cent think the same about Labour. Amazingly, this number is higher than the proportion who think Labour has a good track record in government; just 27 per cent think Labour can look back with pride.

The single most powerful doubt about Labour was that ‘they would spend too much and can’t be trusted with the economy’. This concern is not rooted in the fiscal position used in the campaign; in fact by a 5 point margin voters thought Labour should cut spending more slowly than they planned rather than faster. Instead, as David Cameron’s trumpeting of Liam Byrne’s letter showed, it is Labour’s inability to demonstrate clear change from the past that grounds concern. The leadership candidates are right to come to a reckoning with that history on spending – it either needs to be fought for or conceded.

On immigration, the picture is similar. Voters are just as likely to see immigration as important to their vote as they are to think government spending is. By a margin of around 40 points, voters think Labour should be tougher on immigration rather than more positive about its benefits...
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Morning all.

The focus on illegal immigrants is one hell of a big squirrel to divert attention away from the net migration numbers - and they can't use the "clearing up Labour's mess" any longer.

Just as yesterday's "get rid of target culture in the police" was a real red herring....sorry, have you not been in charge for the past 5 years and could have done something about it?
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn 54m54 minutes ago
Cameron promises new law to seize pay of migrants caught working in Britain illegally http://sunpl.us/6019CwcN" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kevin Maguire ‏@Kevin_Maguire 44m44 minutes ago
Don't seize illegal migrant's often low wages - grab the profits and shut the businesses of those exploiting them
There's the difference in approach.
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Jonathan Ashworth MP ‏@JonAshworth 3m3 minutes ago
So Tories want Eng Votes for Eng Laws, Mayors, Boundaries redrawn while axing Select Ctte that scrutinises such policies @GrahamAllenMP
It is very scary how they keep getting away with such things. Like sneaking in the huge rise in the amount allowed to be spent on election campaigns right at the last moment.

The biggest programme of constitutional change for a long long time ... and very controversial ... and the government with a tiny majority axes the committee that will scrutinise and bring any flaws and anomalies to public attention.
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DonutHingeParty
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by DonutHingeParty »

In my new found spirit of co-operation, tolerance and attempts to understand Tories, I'll be avoiding ad hominem attacks. However, I couldn't resist this one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... chore.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Let’s face it, sex is just another chore. Something else to tick off your endless to-do list: ‘fix the leaky sink, take the kids to the dentist, book the car in for its MOT, call Mum, have sex with husband’.

Is there anything more depressing in life than scheduled marital intercourse? Especially when you’re feeling about as alluring as last night’s mashed potatoes (hang on: is that actually last night’s potatoes on your jumper?)

So you do the only sensible thing: wait until your partner has gone to bed, and the sound of his snoring starts, before creeping upstairs and sliding into bed next to him, taking care lest the poor fellow should wake and, you know, get ideas.
Sarah Vine is, of course, married to Michael Gove.
55DegreesNorth
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by 55DegreesNorth »

Morning folks,
Question for Roger O'T & Tubby.
Is it possible to find out if an Academy has been inspected but the report not released for some reason (eg appeal)? Ofsted site is not helpful.
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

DonutHingeParty wrote:In my new found spirit of co-operation, tolerance and attempts to understand Tories, I'll be avoiding ad hominem attacks. However, I couldn't resist this one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... chore.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Let’s face it, sex is just another chore. Something else to tick off your endless to-do list: ‘fix the leaky sink, take the kids to the dentist, book the car in for its MOT, call Mum, have sex with husband’.

Is there anything more depressing in life than scheduled marital intercourse? Especially when you’re feeling about as alluring as last night’s mashed potatoes (hang on: is that actually last night’s potatoes on your jumper?)

So you do the only sensible thing: wait until your partner has gone to bed, and the sound of his snoring starts, before creeping upstairs and sliding into bed next to him, taking care lest the poor fellow should wake and, you know, get ideas.
Sarah Vine is, of course, married to Michael Gove.
:lol: I don't feel any sympathy for her though. None at all.
Working on the wild side.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by RogerOThornhill »

55DegreesNorth wrote:Morning folks,
Question for Roger O'T & Tubby.
Is it possible to find out if an Academy has been inspected but the report not released for some reason (eg appeal)? Ofsted site is not helpful.
Only if it has a mention in the local press. As far as I know nobody apart from Ofsted knows which schools are on the list to be inspected so the only indication of an inspection is when it gets put up...or if Lord Nash or the New Schools network have leaked it first.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Ben Bradshaw ‏@BenPBradshaw 7m7 minutes ago
Time to look again at a voting system that exaggerates & exacerbates the divisions of of our dis-United Kingdom http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/l ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
Working on the wild side.
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ephemerid
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by ephemerid »

More on immigration......

The Home Office, the IPPR, the OECD, and the Migration Observatory have been in broad agreement since 2000 - immigration has benefited the UK economy to the tune of about £2 Billion a year for each of the last 15 years.
(The institutions which disagree with this are the Taxpayers Alliance and Migration Watch - as they use different criteria and are biased towards preventing all/any more immigration, I think we can dismiss their figures).

Nobody knows what the actual figure for illegal immigration is. There is no way of knowing how many people are here illegally.
The IPPR estimates - and has done for 10 years - that the cost to the UK economy is circa £5 Billion PA.

What we do know is that each detained illegal immigrant costs £99 per night to house them in a detention centre.
Some of them are in these places for a long time, but the average stay is 2 months. That's £3,000.
It costs a further £15,000 for enforced removal which includes flights and contractors fees for transit.
On top of that, there are legal costs which there are no estimates for in government figures.
The total cost annually for all this was £32.4 Million in 2012-13. Some of which is funded by the EU.

In the 3 months April-June 2013, the government said that there were 14,283 enforced removals and 29,845 voluntary removals.
There was a churn of about 29,000 people in and out of detention - of those leaving detention, 59% were removed from the UK.
153,000 people were given permission to stay permanently. That leads to a figure of 600,000 annually. Can't be right, surely?

None of these figures make much sense to me. The truth is, I suspect, that nobody actually knows what's really going on.

Whilst I am pleased that TCBBAC is going to use Labour's ideas to try to stop exploitation of immigrants (legal or otherwise) by outlawing tied contracts and the rest of it, I don't think it's likely that we'll know much more about what's really happening than we ever did.

As far as the EEA is concerned, there are 30,000 or so British nationals claiming unemployment benefits across the EU; and there are 65,000 EU nationals claiming benefits here.
But - because the allowances in the richer EU nations like Germany are higher than they are here, Brits are claiming more in cash terms than their EU counterparts.
If we left the EU, we would lose from not only the net contribution made by working EU nationals, but also the cost of supporting Brits currently claiming elsewhere.
Last edited by ephemerid on Thu 21 May, 2015 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
ohsocynical
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by ohsocynical »

rebeccariots2 wrote:Morning. This is an interesting piece. You will need to suspend distrust of polls while you read as the analysis and commentary is based on polling ... but carried out on election day itself.
Why did the voters reject Labour?
In voters’ eyes, Labour’s problem over the last five years was too little change, not too much.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... ect-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some key paras suggest why the current leadership candidates are saying some of the things they are.
... With most people thinking the economy is improving, and inflation near zero, fifty-seven per cent of voters think the Tories ‘competent’.

The problem is just 31 per cent think the same about Labour. Amazingly, this number is higher than the proportion who think Labour has a good track record in government; just 27 per cent think Labour can look back with pride.

The single most powerful doubt about Labour was that ‘they would spend too much and can’t be trusted with the economy’. This concern is not rooted in the fiscal position used in the campaign; in fact by a 5 point margin voters thought Labour should cut spending more slowly than they planned rather than faster. Instead, as David Cameron’s trumpeting of Liam Byrne’s letter showed, it is Labour’s inability to demonstrate clear change from the past that grounds concern. The leadership candidates are right to come to a reckoning with that history on spending – it either needs to be fought for or conceded.

On immigration, the picture is similar. Voters are just as likely to see immigration as important to their vote as they are to think government spending is. By a margin of around 40 points, voters think Labour should be tougher on immigration rather than more positive about its benefits...
It sort of verifies what I said about the UKIP vote and why so many Labour voters swung to them. It's immigration, immigration, immigration. Never mind that supporting UKIP has meant the Tories getting in which is going to hit that them the hardest. And never mind the ramifications if we come out of the EU.

In the past I have also said that the other ideology they bought into is 'scrounging' off the State even though, again, they are going to be the ones that suffer the most.

It's what's made me so angry. By the time it sinks in what they've done, it'll be too bloody late.
And as a working class person, I haven't a clue what Labour could do to alter their minds.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Net migration to the UK was 318,000 in the year ending December 2014, according to the latest provisional estimates

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration ... index.html

The highest level for a decade and all but 2k off the 2005 number.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
ohsocynical
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by ohsocynical »

DonutHingeParty wrote:In my new found spirit of co-operation, tolerance and attempts to understand Tories, I'll be avoiding ad hominem attacks. However, I couldn't resist this one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... chore.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Let’s face it, sex is just another chore. Something else to tick off your endless to-do list: ‘fix the leaky sink, take the kids to the dentist, book the car in for its MOT, call Mum, have sex with husband’.

Is there anything more depressing in life than scheduled marital intercourse? Especially when you’re feeling about as alluring as last night’s mashed potatoes (hang on: is that actually last night’s potatoes on your jumper?)

So you do the only sensible thing: wait until your partner has gone to bed, and the sound of his snoring starts, before creeping upstairs and sliding into bed next to him, taking care lest the poor fellow should wake and, you know, get ideas.
Sarah Vine is, of course, married to Michael Gove.
I can just imagine her saying to him, "Of course it isn't true darling, It was just a silly article, you know I fancy you."
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by RogerOThornhill »

RogerOThornhill wrote:Net migration to the UK was 318,000 in the year ending December 2014, according to the latest provisional estimates

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration ... index.html

The highest level for a decade and all but 2k off the 2005 number.
Worth pointing out that Cameron can't use his usual get-out clause of reducing non-EU migration since that is now at the level of June 2010.

The only thing he can do is trumpet "the growing economy" as the reason. Shame he didn't say that back in 2010...it's now a yeah but no but yeah but noise.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
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frightful_oik
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by frightful_oik »

ohsocynical wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:Morning. This is an interesting piece. You will need to suspend distrust of polls while you read as the analysis and commentary is based on polling ... but carried out on election day itself.
Why did the voters reject Labour?
In voters’ eyes, Labour’s problem over the last five years was too little change, not too much.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... ect-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some key paras suggest why the current leadership candidates are saying some of the things they are.
... With most people thinking the economy is improving, and inflation near zero, fifty-seven per cent of voters think the Tories ‘competent’.

The problem is just 31 per cent think the same about Labour. Amazingly, this number is higher than the proportion who think Labour has a good track record in government; just 27 per cent think Labour can look back with pride.

The single most powerful doubt about Labour was that ‘they would spend too much and can’t be trusted with the economy’. This concern is not rooted in the fiscal position used in the campaign; in fact by a 5 point margin voters thought Labour should cut spending more slowly than they planned rather than faster. Instead, as David Cameron’s trumpeting of Liam Byrne’s letter showed, it is Labour’s inability to demonstrate clear change from the past that grounds concern. The leadership candidates are right to come to a reckoning with that history on spending – it either needs to be fought for or conceded.

On immigration, the picture is similar. Voters are just as likely to see immigration as important to their vote as they are to think government spending is. By a margin of around 40 points, voters think Labour should be tougher on immigration rather than more positive about its benefits...
It sort of verifies what I said about the UKIP vote and why so many Labour voters swung to them. It's immigration, immigration, immigration. Never mind that supporting UKIP has meant the Tories getting in which is going to hit that them the hardest. And never mind the ramifications if we come out of the EU.

In the past I have also said that the other ideology they bought into is 'scrounging' off the State even though, again, they are going to be the ones that suffer the most.

It's what's made me so angry. By the time it sinks in what they've done, it'll be too bloody late.
And as a working class person, I haven't a clue what Labour could do to alter their minds.

I think that the answer is very little. Where do most people get their information? From the tabloids and the telly, or from their mates who get it from the tabloids and the telly. Both sources will tell them that politicians aren't to be trusted and Labour politicians are the most untrustworthy of all. There is a shrinking back from real analysis and a demand for soundbites and scapegoats. As I said in my discussion with Robert Snozers yesterday, that's why I feel Labour's leaders must not allow the telly/radio to get away with lazy journalism. Not much they can do about the press. Labour must challenge the narrative. And if it wants to win the next election, it has to fight dirty and create a counter narrative that may sometimes be unfair on the Tories/UKIP. But then I look at the leadership candidates and then I get depressed.
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
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ephemerid
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by ephemerid »

ohsocynical wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:Morning. This is an interesting piece. You will need to suspend distrust of polls while you read as the analysis and commentary is based on polling ... but carried out on election day itself.
Why did the voters reject Labour?
In voters’ eyes, Labour’s problem over the last five years was too little change, not too much.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... ect-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some key paras suggest why the current leadership candidates are saying some of the things they are.
... With most people thinking the economy is improving, and inflation near zero, fifty-seven per cent of voters think the Tories ‘competent’.

The problem is just 31 per cent think the same about Labour. Amazingly, this number is higher than the proportion who think Labour has a good track record in government; just 27 per cent think Labour can look back with pride.

The single most powerful doubt about Labour was that ‘they would spend too much and can’t be trusted with the economy’. This concern is not rooted in the fiscal position used in the campaign; in fact by a 5 point margin voters thought Labour should cut spending more slowly than they planned rather than faster. Instead, as David Cameron’s trumpeting of Liam Byrne’s letter showed, it is Labour’s inability to demonstrate clear change from the past that grounds concern. The leadership candidates are right to come to a reckoning with that history on spending – it either needs to be fought for or conceded.

On immigration, the picture is similar. Voters are just as likely to see immigration as important to their vote as they are to think government spending is. By a margin of around 40 points, voters think Labour should be tougher on immigration rather than more positive about its benefits...
It sort of verifies what I said about the UKIP vote and why so many Labour voters swung to them. It's immigration, immigration, immigration. Never mind that supporting UKIP has meant the Tories getting in which is going to hit that them the hardest. And never mind the ramifications if we come out of the EU.

In the past I have also said that the other ideology they bought into is 'scrounging' off the State even though, again, they are going to be the ones that suffer the most.

It's what's made me so angry. By the time it sinks in what they've done, it'll be too bloody late.
And as a working class person, I haven't a clue what Labour could do to alter their minds.

This is exactly the sort of thing that irritates me so much, OhSo - mainly because it's not quite true....

Net immigration has remained pretty much the same for a long time - evidence here:
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.u ... ows-and-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There's a chart which shows that from 1998 to 2003 net migration stayed at below 200K; in 2004 it rose to 250K and has been round about that sort of figure ever since. If anything, it has increased more under the Tories than it did under Labour.
It's easy to drone on about 8 million people coming here under Labour etc, but that would assume more than 600,000 people came here and stayed every year of the 13 that Labour was in office - and it simply is not true.

The same applies to Labour's financial management - they did not "overspend" they spent on much-needed repairs of infrastructure needed thanks to decades of Tory neglect. Some people don't know how bad it was, because anyone under 35 now would have been a teenager when Blair had his landslide; a lot of people voting now would probably not have been all that aware of what life before the Tories ripped our country to shreds.

The Tory propaganda has worked - most people aren't political nerds like us. They don't look too deeply into this stuff.
For years, all the general public has heard is that Labour caused the "Great Recession", Labour are the "Party of Benefits", Labour spent too much, Labour are incompetent, etc.etc.etc. and many of them assume that it's true.

The control of the media by the right - especially so in the past 5 years - has allowed some of this. But Labour need to take some of the blame, because they simply didn't do enough to fight their corner.

And now it would seem that a lot of the things Ed stood for will now be dismissed by the candidates as not good for....whatever.
I think it is nasty and very disloyal for the likes of Cooper and Burnham to rubbish Ed's ideas - all that does is drive away people like me who joined because Labour under Ed offered a better way - and is the same old divided and factional Labour that Ed worked so hard to unify.

What a fucking waste.
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
utopiandreams
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by utopiandreams »

frightful_oik wrote:... There is a shrinking back from real analysis and a demand for soundbites and scapegoats...
There must be something akin to Stockholm Syndrome going on, frightful_oik, since the Tories singled out virtually everyone at some time or another and yet were still voted back in.
I would close my eyes if I couldn't dream.
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

frightful_oik wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:Morning. This is an interesting piece. You will need to suspend distrust of polls while you read as the analysis and commentary is based on polling ... but carried out on election day itself.
Some key paras suggest why the current leadership candidates are saying some of the things they are.
It sort of verifies what I said about the UKIP vote and why so many Labour voters swung to them. It's immigration, immigration, immigration. Never mind that supporting UKIP has meant the Tories getting in which is going to hit that them the hardest. And never mind the ramifications if we come out of the EU.

In the past I have also said that the other ideology they bought into is 'scrounging' off the State even though, again, they are going to be the ones that suffer the most.

It's what's made me so angry. By the time it sinks in what they've done, it'll be too bloody late.
And as a working class person, I haven't a clue what Labour could do to alter their minds.

I think that the answer is very little. Where do most people get their information? From the tabloids and the telly, or from their mates who get it from the tabloids and the telly. Both sources will tell them that politicians aren't to be trusted and Labour politicians are the most untrustworthy of all. There is a shrinking back from real analysis and a demand for soundbites and scapegoats. As I said in my discussion with Robert Snozers yesterday, that's why I feel Labour's leaders must not allow the telly/radio to get away with lazy journalism. Not much they can do about the press. Labour must challenge the narrative. And if it wants to win the next election, it has to fight dirty and create a counter narrative that may sometimes be unfair on the Tories/UKIP. But then I look at the leadership candidates and then I get depressed.
If that is what you want, then Burnham is surely the best bet - just ask Jeremy Hunt ;)

Anyway, if we want cheering up Stella Creasy is supposed to have a very good piece in today's Mirror - may try to read it later :)
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
StephenDolan
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by StephenDolan »

utopiandreams wrote:
frightful_oik wrote:... There is a shrinking back from real analysis and a demand for soundbites and scapegoats...
There must be something akin to Stockholm Syndrome going on, frightful_oik, since the Tories singled out virtually everyone at some time or another and yet were still voted back in.

Pensioners. They made sure they didn't explicitly target this demographic.

When the public come under personal financial pressure can that associated worry result in less time and inclination to scrutinise what the government is doing as opposed to saying?
mikems
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by mikems »

I think that all this talk from the leadership candidates misses the blooming point by a mile. We will never be able to please the reactionary media, they will never support us, and we shouldn't waste our time trying to placate them and appear reasonable to them.

We need our own media. We used to have it, but it was all allowed to slip out of our hands and into the grasp of Murdoch and other capitalists.

We also need to rebuild the labour movement. Hunty talked about this yesterday, and, while we must accept that some things have gone forever simply because times change, the labour movement should be trying to find new ways of establishing itself at the centre of our communities again.

And we need a strategy, some idea of the sort of society we want to create and some ideas on how we get there. And all of that should come from a renewed labour movement.

Moving a bit to the left or right now will make no long term difference to the movement. Tactics won't win wars. Strategy wins wars and we simply haven't got a worthwhile strategy and have nothing to aim for at the moment.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by utopiandreams »

So many problems all down to immigration nothing at all to do with government. Silly me, it was too. It must have been the fault of the LibDems because now this is all going to be resolved now we have a majority Conservative government... As I type this Dave has now explicitly blamed the LibDems by name.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by PorFavor »

mikems wrote:I think that all this talk from the leadership candidates misses the blooming point by a mile. We will never be able to please the reactionary media, they will never support us, and we shouldn't waste our time trying to placate them and appear reasonable to them.

We need our own media. We used to have it, but it was all allowed to slip out of our hands and into the grasp of Murdoch and other capitalists.

We also need to rebuild the labour movement. Hunty talked about this yesterday, and, while we must accept that some things have gone forever simply because times change, the labour movement should be trying to find new ways of establishing itself at the centre of our communities again.

And we need a strategy, some idea of the sort of society we want to create and some ideas on how we get there. And all of that should come from a renewed labour movement.

Moving a bit to the left or right now will make no long term difference to the movement. Tactics won't win wars. Strategy wins wars and we simply haven't got a worthwhile strategy and have nothing to aim for at the moment.
We are taking two steps forward and three steps back, it seems to me. Instead of building up the movement, it's the knee-jerk reaction of "back to the drawing board". Even the drawing board gets replaced. We're trying to get political and societal change - not trying to market a new flavour of crisps.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by PorFavor »

Good morfternoon.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by PorFavor »

I was thinking about the ramifications of exiting the EU. How immediate will the effects be should we vote to pull out? It seems to me to be a bureaucratic nightmare. Passports, for instance.

And however much David Cameron wants to stay in, he'll cock it up for sure.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by utopiandreams »

There is so much smoke coming from Dave I can hardly see the mirrors.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by frightful_oik »

PorFavor wrote:
mikems wrote:I think that all this talk from the leadership candidates misses the blooming point by a mile. We will never be able to please the reactionary media, they will never support us, and we shouldn't waste our time trying to placate them and appear reasonable to them.

We need our own media. We used to have it, but it was all allowed to slip out of our hands and into the grasp of Murdoch and other capitalists.

We also need to rebuild the labour movement. Hunty talked about this yesterday, and, while we must accept that some things have gone forever simply because times change, the labour movement should be trying to find new ways of establishing itself at the centre of our communities again.

And we need a strategy, some idea of the sort of society we want to create and some ideas on how we get there. And all of that should come from a renewed labour movement.

Moving a bit to the left or right now will make no long term difference to the movement. Tactics won't win wars. Strategy wins wars and we simply haven't got a worthwhile strategy and have nothing to aim for at the moment.
We are taking two steps forward and three steps back, it seems to me. Instead of building up the movement, it's the knee-jerk reaction of "back to the drawing board". Even the drawing board gets replaced. We're trying to get political and societal change - not trying to market a new flavour of crisps.
It seems to me PF more like most of Labour's leadership candidates are suggesting that Labour become more like the Tories. The Tories may have won the election but they haven't won the argument, not least because that debate never gets heard.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by citizenJA »

utopiandreams wrote:So many problems all down to immigration nothing at all to do with government. Silly me, it was too. It must have been the fault of the LibDems because now this is all going to be resolved now we have a majority Conservative government... As I type this Dave has now explicitly blamed the LibDems by name.
Dave blamed the LibDems for preventing Tories from keeping immigrants out.

Unbelieveable.
I can't do this.
These are crazy people, you know what I mean?
There is no cooperation or communication going to happen with people sick in the head like the Tories blaming everything they've failed at on someone else.
Why aren't Tories laughed out of every room?
Why are they in government?

I've got to tell you all something.
I'm so discouraged I've been toying with a defence mechanism to cope.
'Maybe the trolls were right & governments are all the same so it won't get too bad or much worse'
But then the evidence demonstrating this to be false comes rushing in at me.
God help us.

P.S. The LibDem immigration van, Dave.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by citizenJA »

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.
Good early afternoon, PorFavor.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by utopiandreams »

citizenJA wrote:...P.S. The LibDem immigration van, Dave.
Yeah great minds think alike, гражданка. I very nearly suggested we'd be seeing those again.

Edit: I see Tom Brake agrees too, гражданка.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by JustMom »

I wish someone could convince Jon Trickett to stand for the leadership,he said he would continue with Ed's policies.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 50m50 minutes ago
Cameron blames Vince Cable's "Business Department" for blocking crackdown on illegal migrants

David Wooding ‏@DavidWooding 48m48 minutes ago London, England
David Cameron has blamed those pesky Lib Dems for blocking his plans to control immigration. He's got a free rein now, so no excuses!

AndrewSparrow ‏@AndrewSparrow 27m27 minutes ago
"Neither achievable not desirable" - IoD on Cameron's net migration target - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blo ... 8a5a131964" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Emily Ashton ‏@elashton 34m34 minutes ago
IPPR think tank calls on govt to dump net migration target & focus on "supporting communities affected by immigration impacts"
That last is what the Labour party should be doing IMO. They started with some of their policies - but didn't manage to get a positive narrative established and need to do much more in actual work on the ground in said communities. Tough but necessary work.

Who will Cameron blame next when he fails on these stupid targets - BADGERS? He may as well do a Paterson and claim the migrants will have moved the goal posts.

And can someone tell me why Farage isn't being called out as being 'anti-business' with all his out of Europe rhetoric?
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

PorFavor wrote:
mikems wrote:I think that all this talk from the leadership candidates misses the blooming point by a mile. We will never be able to please the reactionary media, they will never support us, and we shouldn't waste our time trying to placate them and appear reasonable to them.

We need our own media. We used to have it, but it was all allowed to slip out of our hands and into the grasp of Murdoch and other capitalists.

We also need to rebuild the labour movement. Hunty talked about this yesterday, and, while we must accept that some things have gone forever simply because times change, the labour movement should be trying to find new ways of establishing itself at the centre of our communities again.

And we need a strategy, some idea of the sort of society we want to create and some ideas on how we get there. And all of that should come from a renewed labour movement.

Moving a bit to the left or right now will make no long term difference to the movement. Tactics won't win wars. Strategy wins wars and we simply haven't got a worthwhile strategy and have nothing to aim for at the moment.
We are taking two steps forward and three steps back, it seems to me. Instead of building up the movement, it's the knee-jerk reaction of "back to the drawing board". Even the drawing board gets replaced. We're trying to get political and societal change - not trying to market a new flavour of crisps.
What is even more depressing is that the "move right" brigade have no *new* ideas - just rehashing what worked with Blair in the 1990s.

Don't despair, all the leadership contenders are going to have to explain themselves to us in the next few months - we need to hold them to account :rock:
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by ephemerid »

I have just read an interesting post on the Polly Toynbee thread - from someone called Simon Thorpe who has a fascinating CIF profile.

He says that in the UK there are £2 Quadrillion's-worth of financial transactions.
This is a figure that's too big for me to understand....

Mr.Thorpe reckons that the total tax revenue is £513.6 Billion.
But a Financial Transaction Tax could do this -
Set at 0.016% it could eliminate public sector debt in 5 years;
Set at 0.025% it could cover the cost of all government expenditure;
Set at 0.04% it could pay an unconditional basic income of £1,000 a month to every man, woman and child in the UK.

I have no idea if his calculations are correct - but judging by his posting history and profile, I'm inclined to think he is.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

The latest report from James Doleman who is live covering the Coulson perjury trial.

The first couple of days were given over to listening to Coulson's taped interview and statement for the previous trial in which he denied knowledge of hacking etc.
COULSON TRIAL, DAY 4 MORNING
https://www.byline.com/project/8/article/59" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by PorFavor »

She [Liz Kendall] says she wants to change the party’s approach to business completely. Paying for services requires a dynamic economy. Saying that should not be news. The fact that this counts as news says something about the state of the party. (Politics Blog, Guardian)
This may be a poor representation of what she actually said - but I shall proceed on the basis that it isn't.

I think I know what she's talking about - and it's again one of her gross misrepresentations of what was said and done by Ed Miliband in the recent general election campaign. This woman is not endearing herself to me. Not simply because of her ideas, but because of her apparent willingness to lie and spin to suit her own agenda.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by gilsey »

Not talking about sport. ;)

Tom Davies on the EngvNZ liveblog re the ECB
England the concept, the self-serving and self-preserving administrative mess, that seems to be irking people, which manifests itself in everything from the ICC carve-up to the perpetual hole-digging of the World Cup fall-out and relations with that former No4 batsman chap.
For ECB, read tory government.
The difference being that the ECB only have about half the media onside, rather than 80%.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by nickyinnorfolk »

Eoin Clarke tweets that if poverty was a European sport, the UK would win bronze, according to ONS figures. Greece and Latvia take the dubious honour of first and second place. We however have more poverty than Portugal, Romania and Lithuania. Shameful ....


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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by pk1 »

Camilla Cavendish (and Jeremy Hunt excuse generator) has been appointed head of the Downing Street policy unit.

Shocked I am, shocked.....
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

JustMom wrote:I wish someone could convince Jon Trickett to stand for the leadership,he said he would continue with Ed's policies.
Reading between the lines on his Twitter output I suspect he wouldn't need much convincing, the articles he has written over the past week do read like some sort of personal manifesto.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by JustMom »

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
JustMom wrote:I wish someone could convince Jon Trickett to stand for the leadership,he said he would continue with Ed's policies.
Reading between the lines on his Twitter output I suspect he wouldn't need much convincing, the articles he has written over the past week do read like some sort of personal manifesto.

Would he be any good do you think ?
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by citizenJA »

One of two rail unions planning bank holiday industrial action has called off its strike after receiving a new pay offer from Network Rail. Manuel Cortes, general secretary of the TSSA, said:

"Our negotiating team at Acas has received a revised offer from Network Rail. As a result of this, they have suspended the planned industrial action, pending the outcome of a meeting of our workplace representatives next week."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32832191" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
RMT haven't reached agreement with National Rail yet.
Their strike isn't called off at this time.

My best to you all, comrades. :rock:
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by PorFavor »

citizenJA wrote:
One of two rail unions planning bank holiday industrial action has called off its strike after receiving a new pay offer from Network Rail. Manuel Cortes, general secretary of the TSSA, said:

"Our negotiating team at Acas has received a revised offer from Network Rail. As a result of this, they have suspended the planned industrial action, pending the outcome of a meeting of our workplace representatives next week."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32832191" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
RMT haven't reached agreement with National Rail yet.
Their strike isn't called off at this time.

My best to you all, comrades. :rock:
I wonder what happened to Network Rail's threat to take TSSA to court over alleged ballot irregularities?
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by ohsocynical »

I posted earlier that as a working class person I didn't know what Labour could do to swing UKIP voters back to them.

I think I do, but without Labour being in power it won't happen.

Masses of Social housing. Better wages, and stopping the importation of cheap labour.
Make their lives a bit easier so that they can afford to take a holiday, or buy a big TV. Or have a drink and a take away a couple of times a week. Even treat themselves to something new, even if it is from Primark.
Once they have that, the majority of them will stop fretting about immigrants...I guarantee it.
But, and it's a huge but, the only way that's going to happen is for Labour to get in but they can't while those at the bottom of the ladder are hard done by and needing someone else to blame.

It's a never ending circle.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by citizenJA »

PorFavor wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
One of two rail unions planning bank holiday industrial action has called off its strike after receiving a new pay offer from Network Rail. Manuel Cortes, general secretary of the TSSA, said:

"Our negotiating team at Acas has received a revised offer from Network Rail. As a result of this, they have suspended the planned industrial action, pending the outcome of a meeting of our workplace representatives next week."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32832191" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
RMT haven't reached agreement with National Rail yet.
Their strike isn't called off at this time.

My best to you all, comrades. :rock:
I wonder what happened to Network Rail's threat to take TSSA to court over alleged ballot irregularities?
"Network Rail had been due to mount a legal challenge in the High Court against the TSSA's strike ballot."

Good question.
The article doesn't say more than the above.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by StephenDolan »

ohsocynical wrote:I posted earlier that as a working class person I didn't know what Labour could do to swing UKIP voters back to them.

I think I do, but without Labour being in power it won't happen.

Masses of Social housing. Better wages, and stopping the importation of cheap labour.
Make their lives a bit easier so that they can afford to take a holiday, or buy a big TV. Or have a drink and a take away a couple of times a week. Even treat themselves to something new, even if it is from Primark.
Once they have that, the majority of them will stop fretting about immigrants...I guarantee it.
But, and it's a huge but, the only way that's going to happen is for Labour to get in but they can't while those at the bottom of the ladder are hard done by and needing someone else to blame.

It's a never ending circle.
Nail on the head.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

JustMom wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
JustMom wrote:I wish someone could convince Jon Trickett to stand for the leadership,he said he would continue with Ed's policies.
Reading between the lines on his Twitter output I suspect he wouldn't need much convincing, the articles he has written over the past week do read like some sort of personal manifesto.
Would he be any good do you think ?
He has been around since God was a boy but never made the jump to the top table; whether that is through lack of ability, bad luck or a mixture of the two, difficult to call, certainly a few missteps along the way. But his entry would shake things up a little, that is for sure.
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Re: Thursday 21st May 2015

Post by JustMom »

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
JustMom wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote: Reading between the lines on his Twitter output I suspect he wouldn't need much convincing, the articles he has written over the past week do read like some sort of personal manifesto.
Would he be any good do you think ?
He has been around since God was a boy but never made the jump to the top table; whether that is through lack of ability, bad luck or a mixture of the two, difficult to call, certainly a few missteps along the way. But his entry would shake things up a little, that is for sure.
He does say he was kept off the tv because he has a strong northern accent.
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