Thursday 21st May 2015

[rebeccariots2]

Ohso and JA, ta very much, getting a tad frustrated with the language leadership contenders are using, no doubt the "aspiration" critique is aimed at the south east, well guess what, there are those living there who want the same as others in other parts of the country, a reasonable wage, chance of a house and a bit left over.

You're not alone in being fed up letsskip. Pretty much all the stuff spouted so far seems completely divorced from the Wales and communities I live in and mingle with. They will further lose touch with and support from areas such as this unless they start to address people living outside the towns and cities they frequent.

A 'left wing' candidate probably won't win but it is important - as that G article the other day said - that there is a least a proper debate that includes a different perspective than the neo Blair we are being served up. Otherwise they might as well play paper, stone, scissors to work out which of them gets the job.

[TechnicalEphemera]

On the Kendall stuff, she sounds like a Tory, and I find her analysis piss poor.

It is very simplistic to argue that:

- UK has not moved to the left.
- Blairism and a return to that agenda will help.

The old model of the market is best is failing, so Blairism New Labour is not the answer. Increasingly those of working age are being made poorer. Home ownership is increasingly impossible, wages are down, income is down aka productivity. People are working harder for less.

The Tory party won because of affluent pensioners, this is a declining market, they are dying off and younger pensioners are poorer. Meanwhile the dispossessed voted UKIP mainly on the anti immigration anti market forces vote. Scotland has moved further left than Labour (in its mind if not in reality).

Miliband was far closer to understanding this than Kendall is, the country has moved anti market forces (Tory majority is down from 50 odd, even after the murder of the soft right lib Dems).

I don't know what the answer is, but it isn't Blairism, it isn't being market and business friendly, it is different. Therefore it is not Liz Bloody Kendall. It is probably a combination of Left wing Labour and Blue Labour with some charisma thrown in.

[rebeccariots2]

Jamie Reed ‏@jreedmp 43m
A) Bunkum
B) Balderdash
C) Bullshot
D) Bullshit
E) Bollocks

Vote now.

[AngryAsWell]

Harry Leslie Smith ‏@Harryslaststand · 4h4 hours ago
If #LizKendall believes the anti union, anti worker clap trap she's spouting now, she should have resigned from Miliband's shadow cabinet

[TechnicalEphemera]

Harry Leslie Smith ‏@Harryslaststand · 4h4 hours ago
If #LizKendall believes the anti union, anti worker clap trap she's spouting now, she should have resigned from Miliband's shadow cabinet

Damn straight Harry.

[rebeccariots2]

Harry Leslie Smith ‏@Harryslaststand · 4h4 hours ago
If #LizKendall believes the anti union, anti worker clap trap she's spouting now, she should have resigned from Miliband's shadow cabinet

Blimey.

I'm definitely not going to read these articles now. I will be too depressed far too early on.

I'm going to have to wait until we're further in with this contest and then take a look at those information / links pages you've set up.

[SpinningHugo]

Unsurprisingly, I think Kendall is our best hope. Cooper very much a second choice.

Continuity Miliband (ie Burnham) won't get us anywhere.

[rebeccariots2]

May's plan to censor TV programmes condemned by Tory cabinet colleague
Exclusive: Former culture secretary Sajid Javid told prime minister he was unable to support home secretary’s proposal as it infringed free speech
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/m ... -colleague" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If I am actually having to agree with Sajid Javid (Sajid Javid!)... Teresa May must be really off her trolley.

Seems tin foil hats will be obligatory now.

[Willow904]

Unsurprisingly, I think Kendall is our best hope. Cooper very much a second choice.

Continuity Miliband (ie Burnham) won't get us anywhere.

You do realise your championing Kendell is only going to underline the negative impressions some of us already have of her, don't you?
'None of the above' is winning at the moment, but if Burnham is going to be Ed Miliband with a northern accent, that would be better than someone no one recognises wittering on about 'aspiration'.
We need someone who is able to articulate and fight for a very basic thing - for every job to pay a living wage, that puts a roof over your head and food on the table. Binmen and nursery nurses don't aspire to be doctors and lawyers, they aspire for a place of their own and a family to share it with. Unless people can live a normal life doing a normal job on normal wages, there's something fundamentally very wrong with our economic system.

[frightful_oik]

I aspire to living in a society providing decent public services for everyone, not a tax cut so's I can have a second foreign holiday every year or a better car or some such.

[frightful_oik]

Unsurprisingly, I think Kendall is our best hope. Cooper very much a second choice.

Continuity Miliband (ie Burnham) won't get us anywhere.

You do realise your championing Kendell is only going to underline the negative impressions some of us already have of her, don't you?
'None of the above' is winning at the moment, but if Burnham is going to be Ed Miliband with a northern accent, that would be better than someone no one recognises wittering on about 'aspiration'.
We need someone who is able to articulate and fight for a very basic thing - for every job to pay a living wage, that puts a roof over your head and food on the table. Binmen and nursery nurses don't aspire to be doctors and lawyers, they aspire for a place of their own and a family to share it with. Unless people can live a normal life doing a normal job on normal wages, there's something fundamentally very wrong with our economic system.

You do know that Burnham has been wittering on about aspiration too, right?

They all have. It's a choice between Tweedledum or Tweedledummer.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Unsurprisingly, I think Kendall is our best hope. Cooper very much a second choice.

Continuity Miliband (ie Burnham) won't get us anywhere.

Seriously? Kendall is working very hard to contaminate your brand. I am not particularly left wing and she is pissing me off.

[Willow904]

Unsurprisingly, I think Kendall is our best hope. Cooper very much a second choice.

Continuity Miliband (ie Burnham) won't get us anywhere.

You do realise your championing Kendell is only going to underline the negative impressions some of us already have of her, don't you?
'None of the above' is winning at the moment, but if Burnham is going to be Ed Miliband with a northern accent, that would be better than someone no one recognises wittering on about 'aspiration'.
We need someone who is able to articulate and fight for a very basic thing - for every job to pay a living wage, that puts a roof over your head and food on the table. Binmen and nursery nurses don't aspire to be doctors and lawyers, they aspire for a place of their own and a family to share it with. Unless people can live a normal life doing a normal job on normal wages, there's something fundamentally very wrong with our economic system.

You do know that Burnham has been wittering on about aspiration too, right?

That's why 'None of the above' is currently way out in the lead!
Something is very wrong when you find yourself thinking the guy who just lost the election is still more convincing than those lining up to replace him.
I still like Tristram Hunt, but he's backing Kendell who I just can't seem to see as a genuine contender. She has no impact for me, I'd really struggle to recognise her in a picture without a caption. Dan Jarvis seemed to represent an interesting change of pace, but he's backing Burnham, who's ok in some ways, but nothing special.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Unsurprisingly, I think Kendall is our best hope. Cooper very much a second choice.

Continuity Miliband (ie Burnham) won't get us anywhere.

You do realise your championing Kendell is only going to underline the negative impressions some of us already have of her, don't you?
'None of the above' is winning at the moment, but if Burnham is going to be Ed Miliband with a northern accent, that would be better than someone no one recognises wittering on about 'aspiration'.
We need someone who is able to articulate and fight for a very basic thing - for every job to pay a living wage, that puts a roof over your head and food on the table. Binmen and nursery nurses don't aspire to be doctors and lawyers, they aspire for a place of their own and a family to share it with. Unless people can live a normal life doing a normal job on normal wages, there's something fundamentally very wrong with our economic system.

You do know that Burnham has been wittering on about aspiration too, right?

Unless people can live a normal life doing a normal job on normal wages, there's something fundamentally very wrong with our economic system.

I believe that has nailed it, the kipper vote is as much about this as anything. If I thought Kendall had anything relevant to say about this fundamental truth I would be prepared to listen, but she seems to want to deny the problem.

The Kipper view is this problem can be fixed by deporting EU immigrants and keeping what little cash they have for themselves, and screw the benefit scroungers(TM). To pretend Blairism addresses this is fantasy. Kendall would kill off Labour, the kippers won't vote for her, the left certainly won't and the Tories will vote Tory.

[rebeccariots2]

Unsurprisingly, I think Kendall is our best hope. Cooper very much a second choice.

Continuity Miliband (ie Burnham) won't get us anywhere.

Seriously? Kendall is working very hard to contaminate your brand. I am not particularly left wing and she is pissing me off.

I am having to force myself to remain as open minded as possible - getting harder and harder. But ... Kendall and others seem to have completely forgotten areas where their highly selective South East orientated messages just don't have relevance. Try going on about free schools in Milford Haven ... they just seem to forget / exclude large parts of the country they are supposed to be appealing to / representing.

[citizenJA]

You do realise your championing Kendell is only going to underline the negative impressions some of us already have of her, don't you?
'None of the above' is winning at the moment, but if Burnham is going to be Ed Miliband with a northern accent, that would be better than someone no one recognises wittering on about 'aspiration'.
We need someone who is able to articulate and fight for a very basic thing - for every job to pay a living wage, that puts a roof over your head and food on the table. Binmen and nursery nurses don't aspire to be doctors and lawyers, they aspire for a place of their own and a family to share it with. Unless people can live a normal life doing a normal job on normal wages, there's something fundamentally very wrong with our economic system.

You do know that Burnham has been wittering on about aspiration too, right?

Unless people can live a normal life doing a normal job on normal wages, there's something fundamentally very wrong with our economic system.

I believe that has nailed it, the kipper vote is as much about this as anything. If I thought Kendall had anything relevant to say about this fundamental truth I would be prepared to listen, but she seems to want to deny the problem.

The Kipper view is this problem can be fixed by deporting EU immigrants and keeping what little cash they have for themselves, and screw the benefit scroungers(TM). To pretend Blairism addresses this is fantasy. Kendall would kill off Labour, the kippers won't vote for her, the left certainly won't and the Tories will vote Tory.

Who's the quote from? I like it.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Unsurprisingly, I think Kendall is our best hope. Cooper very much a second choice.

Continuity Miliband (ie Burnham) won't get us anywhere.

You do realise your championing Kendell is only going to underline the negative impressions some of us already have of her, don't you?
'None of the above' is winning at the moment, but if Burnham is going to be Ed Miliband with a northern accent, that would be better than someone no one recognises wittering on about 'aspiration'.
We need someone who is able to articulate and fight for a very basic thing - for every job to pay a living wage, that puts a roof over your head and food on the table. Binmen and nursery nurses don't aspire to be doctors and lawyers, they aspire for a place of their own and a family to share it with. Unless people can live a normal life doing a normal job on normal wages, there's something fundamentally very wrong with our economic system.

You do know that Burnham has been wittering on about aspiration too, right?

Yes, in a way that at least doesn't p*** the mainstream of the party off.

What has Kendall had to say about the politics of identity, insecurity, alienation - what has she had to say about f***ing SCOTLAND??

(if she or her minders thinks obsessing about "public sector reform" is going to win votes back there or stop the bleeding to UKIP, then words truly fail)

Look, I'm aware that you know Kendall and like her - I have heard good things about her from others who have met her too. That is why I was genuinely willing to give her a chance when she announced she was standing - and initially, she showed some signs it might be worth it.

But I have to say she is showing a total tin ear to the party mainstream at the moment. The guff she spouted today (the clueless, parasitical lobby hacks loved it - utterly predictably) has at least one person of my acquaintance - as far from a loony leftie as you can get - musing about our own version of Syriza being formed if she is elected leader. She is going about things in totally the wrong way - it might be the way to get 35 MPs nominations, but nobody but terminal Progress groupies are going to support what she is currently spouting

Just compare her current stuff to what Stella Creasy has been saying. Also a "moderniser" (whatever that is) but one with empathy, nuance and intelligence.

I've said it before, but will again - she's somebody who *should* be standing for leader. As it is, she has my support for deputy to the proverbial 110%

[frightful_oik]

Steve Bell has it spot on:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... contenders

[PorFavor]

Goodnight, everyone.

[tinyclanger2]

Steve Bell has it spot on:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... contenders

It is very very grim. Is this really the best we can do? Cameron, Cooper and Salmond. From a nation of 60 million.
God help us.

[rebeccariots2]

Night PF.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Night PF.

Quick health update. Had a clinic appointment at the Cardiac Unit today and have been given the all clear; as long as I keep taking the tablets and carrying through on the lifestyle changes there should be no need to stent the other artery, so I have been discharged.

[AngryAsWell]

Night PF.

Quick health update. Had a clinic appointment at the Cardiac Unit today and have been given the all clear; as long as I keep taking the tablets and carrying through on the lifestyle changes there should be no need to stent the other artery, so I have been discharged.

So very pleased to hear that! Well done you

[LadyCentauria]

Unsurprisingly, I think Kendall is our best hope. Cooper very much a second choice.

Continuity Miliband (ie Burnham) won't get us anywhere.

I don't think I agree, but feel it's still too early to rule anyone absolutely in or out.

I just wish they'd stop using 'aspiration' as a buzz-word. Call it what it is – a cross between hope and ambition, a word that falls into the gap between I'd like to be an astronaut and I want to be an astronaut.

[rebeccariots2]

From John Mann MP

A monochrome party in a colourful society
Why Labour lost
http://www.mann4bassetlaw.com/a_monochr ... ul_society" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

followed by his manifesto:

A brilliant Britain
http://www.mann4bassetlaw.com/a_brilliant_britain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you John Mann for adding that colour and hope.

[citizenJA]

Goodnight, everyone.

Goodnight, Porfavor

[citizenJA]

Night PF.

Quick health update. Had a clinic appointment at the Cardiac Unit today and have been given the all clear; as long as I keep taking the tablets and carrying through on the lifestyle changes there should be no need to stent the other artery, so I have been discharged.

Wonderful!

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Night PF.

Quick health update. Had a clinic appointment at the Cardiac Unit today and have been given the all clear; as long as I keep taking the tablets and carrying through on the lifestyle changes there should be no need to stent the other artery, so I have been discharged.

So very pleased to hear that! Well done you

And it turns out I am taller than I thought I was. Last time I really bothered checking my height I was in my early 20s (I think they still measured it in chains and furlongs back then), so I've always put 5' 11" on any official documents (although I was just shy of it); they had to measure me this morning, and apparently I'm now just a touch over 6 foot!! I thought people were supposed to shrink with age?

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Unsurprisingly, I think Kendall is our best hope. Cooper very much a second choice.

Continuity Miliband (ie Burnham) won't get us anywhere.

Well, if I hadn't rejected her already ........

[AngryAsWell]

Liz Kendall Divorces Herself From Miliband Era
The Labour leadership contender disowns some of her former boss's flagship policies and reaches out to Tory voters.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She has totally lost the plot - or never had it - if she is elected I will leave the party. She wants to try reaching out to Labour voters.
Out of interest Hugo, my dyed-in-the-wool tory neighbours who have never voted anything but Tory, voted Labour because they liked Ed and thought his policies were a sound way to get the country back on it's feet.

[tinyclanger2]

I fail to understand the value of having 5 right-wing parties, plus plaid and the greens.
Sounds like the same kind of choice we get from our wealth-creating aspirational press.

[LadyCentauria]

Night PF.

Quick health update. Had a clinic appointment at the Cardiac Unit today and have been given the all clear; as long as I keep taking the tablets and carrying through on the lifestyle changes there should be no need to stent the other artery, so I have been discharged.

That's great news, Grim! So, keep on taking the tablets and carry on the lifestyle changes – and relax, whenever possible

[RogerOThornhill]

Evening all.

From AS re Kendall.

John Rentoul ✔@JohnRentoul
I think it can be said that @Liz4Leader has passed that test: lunch with the Westminster press pack.

Wrong on so many levels...is that what it's come to - gaining the Cameron fan club's approval before you can become Labour leader?

I hate, absolutely hate the media we have. Just appalling.

[rebeccariots2]

Well done TGS. Sounds like you've really been looking after yourself and it has been well worth it. Brilliant news.

[seeingclearly]

I think that all this talk from the leadership candidates misses the blooming point by a mile. We will never be able to please the reactionary media, they will never support us, and we shouldn't waste our time trying to placate them and appear reasonable to them.

We need our own media. We used to have it, but it was all allowed to slip out of our hands and into the grasp of Murdoch and other capitalists.

We also need to rebuild the labour movement. Hunty talked about this yesterday, and, while we must accept that some things have gone forever simply because times change, the labour movement should be trying to find new ways of establishing itself at the centre of our communities again.

And we need a strategy, some idea of the sort of society we want to create and some ideas on how we get there. And all of that should come from a renewed labour movement.

Moving a bit to the left or right now will make no long term difference to the movement. Tactics won't win wars. Strategy wins wars and we simply haven't got a worthwhile strategy and have nothing to aim for at the moment.

There are plenty of people in the protest movements with good ideas on this who had been watching Labour for signs that they could somehow contribute, who voted Labour, sometimes against their better instincts, who understand the social history of the nation and who are now holding their heads in horror as Labour seems to be travelling rightwards again. There's people who really want them to go the other way. And some of them are greens, but mostly they are people without a party loyalty because of things like Iraq and Blair. As far as I can tell they would rally round Labour if it showed it had some spirit of Labour, but with the uninspiring candidates they just can't do it. Predictably Hunt has taken a drubbing, and they can't stand Kendall, and are glad Ummuna went. Some of these people really do have good ideas, really a lot better than the ideas in the green manifesto, imho. A lot of them with the more global overview that's so needed. I would love to see Ed back, working to harness some of that engaged energy, he would have nothing to lose and neither tbh would the nation. Anything would be better than it looks like we'll get.

[rebeccariots2]

The latest migration figures show that last year’s drive against illegal immigration has been far from a success. Voluntary departures fell from 32,000 to 23,000 in the 12 months to March, while enforced departures were down by 3% to 12, 498.

It may be that Cameron should stop pretending he can produce deep cuts in migration levels and instead get on with managing its impact, particularly in areas of rapid population change. The Conservative manifesto included a pledge to introduce a controlling migration fund to ease pressures on services. Perhaps it is time we heard a little more about that.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... st-figures" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AnatolyKasparov]

Ed isn't coming back and it really is time people got used to that fact, tbh.

Use the coming meetings/hustings and discussions to push those who are standing more in the direction that you want to go.

And vote Creasy for deputy, please. She actually "gets it"

[citizenJA]

Liz Kendall Divorces Herself From Miliband Era
The Labour leadership contender disowns some of her former boss's flagship policies and reaches out to Tory voters.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She has totally lost the plot - or never had it - if she is elected I will leave the party. She wants to try reaching out to Labour voters.
Out of interest Hugo, my dyed-in-the-wool tory neighbours who have never voted anything but Tory, voted Labour because they liked Ed and thought his policies were a sound way to get the country back on it's feet.

I've read so many differently spun stories about what Kendall is supposed to have said in this single interview or speech today my head spins. If this is truly what she's about it won't do. Absolutely agree with you. I trust the judgement of most of my friends here on FTN. I apologise if I've sounded adversarial over Kendall, I can assure you, I'm not looking for an argument because I don't have the first idea who to choose from so far, I agree it's depressing stuff. I don't like what media's done to the process. I don't trust the manipulation of the information I've poured over today.

"Kendall Divorces Herself from Miliband Era"

http://news.sky.com/story/1488552/liz-k ... liband-era" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is Labour going to be allowed to expect anything approaching fairness in the media?
The media lost it for Miliband.
There it is.
I don't trust a word from these bastards.
That's it.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Anyway, night all.

[citizenJA]

Ed isn't coming back and it really is time people got used to that fact, tbh.

Use the coming meetings/hustings and discussions to push those who are standing more in the direction that you want to go.

And vote Creasy for deputy, please. She actually "gets it"

I understand.
I'm hurt as hell & I accept what I can't change.
I'll do what I can for Labour, the people & the country.
Most of good governance is just slogging through public service as competently as possible.
It's not glamorous.
A good leader is professional & duller than shit.
He or she gets the work done without causing trouble or conflict.
Everything Dave Cameron, for example, entirely fails doing for the UK & people.
God damn depressing as hell.

[citizenJA]

Anyway, night all.

Goodnight, TGS
I'm happy your health is good.
Long, happy life for you, yes.
xx
cJA

[AngryAsWell]

Anyway, night all.

Night TGS really pleased about your good news today

[TechnicalEphemera]

Ed isn't coming back and it really is time people got used to that fact, tbh.

Use the coming meetings/hustings and discussions to push those who are standing more in the direction that you want to go.

And vote Creasy for deputy, please. She actually "gets it"

Creasy would be a decent leader, standing for deputy is just a waste.

[tinyclanger2]

Andy Burnham - Cambridge
Yvette Cooper - Oxford
Liz Kendall - Cambridge
Mary Creagh - Oxford
Tristram Hunt - Cambridge

So representing a good 0.5 % of the population right there

[TechnicalEphemera]

Andy Burnham - Cambridge
Yvette Cooper - Oxford
Liz Kendall - Cambridge
Mary Creagh - Oxford
Tristram Hunt - Cambridge

So representing a good 0.5 % of the population right there

Hopeless isn't it.

[tinyclanger2]

yup

[seeingclearly]

I have just read an interesting post on the Polly Toynbee thread - from someone called Simon Thorpe who has a fascinating CIF profile.

He says that in the UK there are £2 Quadrillion's-worth of financial transactions.
This is a figure that's too big for me to understand....

Mr.Thorpe reckons that the total tax revenue is £513.6 Billion.
But a Financial Transaction Tax could do this -
Set at 0.016% it could eliminate public sector debt in 5 years;
Set at 0.025% it could cover the cost of all government expenditure;
Set at 0.04% it could pay an unconditional basic income of £1,000 a month to every man, woman and child in the UK.

I have no idea if his calculations are correct - but judging by his posting history and profile, I'm inclined to think he is.

He's a Research Director at the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique in Toulouse. His blog is here: http://simonthorpesideas.blogspot.co.uk/. Interesting guy, and I rather think he'll be correct on his figures. His specialisms, on which he has written extensively, are computational neuroscience, vision, perception, memory, and neural-networks.

I think he's right. I don't remember the figure but I do remember being absolutely astounded by the DAILY figure for transactions, and thinking with all that going on some of it should get to trickle down. It would cover every single cut if it was even smaller than the sums suggested for various forms of transaction tax.

[frightful_oik]

Pleased for ya TGS. In case you catch up in the morning.

[citizenJA]

I like John Mann.
There's some good news.
I like his vision.

http://www.mann4bassetlaw.com/a_brilliant_britain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[LadyCentauria]

May's plan to censor TV programmes condemned by Tory cabinet colleague
Exclusive: Former culture secretary Sajid Javid told prime minister he was unable to support home secretary’s proposal as it infringed free speech
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/m ... -colleague" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If I am actually having to agree with Sajid Javid (Sajid Javid!)... Teresa May must be really off her trolley.

Seems tin foil hats will be obligatory now.

The date on that letter might go part of the way to explaining why he was moved from SoS CMS to become Business Secretary. I wonder whether or not his sideways promotion has led him to change his view on the matter.

Tin foil hats are cool