Thursday 28th May 2015

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 28 May, 2015 2:16 pm

mikems wrote:We live in a class dominated, rotten society, full of privilege and injustice, full of social division and hatred generated by a corrupt and complicit media, driven to extremes by the roller-coaster demands of the ruling elites and their need to increase their wealth on a constant basis, and the main problem we have is an over-optimisitic left, not a section of society that sees all the above as natural and right.

Main problem an over-optimistic left?
I can't agree with you.
The main problem you've correctly identified in the beginning & final words of your post.
Nothing overly optimistic about people wanting everyone to have some of the best - it's noble, fair, reasonable & possible.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 28 May, 2015 2:17 pm

The photograph over at the Guardian Politics Blog (beneath the Lunchtime Summary at 13.39), of David Cameron's meeting with the Dutch Prime Minister, is really most peculiar.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 28 May, 2015 2:19 pm

Lord Falconer, Labour’s Shadow Justice Secretary, commenting on today’s Electoral Commission figures on donations to political parties, said:
“David Cameron used to call for taking big money out of politics, but today’s figures show the Conservative Party is still reliant on a small pool of large donors, outspending other parties by millions.
It’s no wonder the Tories are focusing on partisan politics rather than engaging in meaningful reforms to our party funding system.
The Conservatives should be focussing on what’s best for the nation as a whole, rather than launching a brazenly political attack on trade unions who stand up for millions of working people. David Cameron is putting his party before the country. A focus on division is not what working people need.”

MAY 28, 2015 (1:09 PM)

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1200992 ... before-the" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 28 May, 2015 2:26 pm

PorFavor wrote:The photograph over at the Guardian Politics Blog (beneath the Lunchtime Summary at 13.39), of David Cameron's meeting with the Dutch Prime Minister, is really most peculiar.

Dave looks as though he desperately needs to find a toilet.
And the Dutch PM knows.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 28 May, 2015 2:32 pm

I'm coming to the sad conclusion that Ed Miliband was a little ahead of his time and that it might have been better for David Miliband to have assumed the Labour Party leadership. He would have crashed and burned in the General Election, of that I'm sure. Then Ed Miliband would have been in place to dig us out of the clag. As it was, I think he probably peaked too early. Tragic.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 28 May, 2015 2:37 pm

I miss Ed Miliband's government, PorFavor.
It is tragic.

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Thu 28 May, 2015 2:40 pm

Happy birthday Ohso.

Also, thanks to the utopiandreams for posting a link to LeMonde, where I found this:

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 28 May, 2015 2:55 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
Willow904 wrote: I personally feel that Labour isn't in need of a new message, but rather a new messenger.
I'd have more confidence that that was all that was required if the people saying this were not also the same people who had said how great the previous messenger was.

Systemic over-optimism seems to be a trait of the left.

Which is why I'm willing to get behind someone I'm not completely convinced by next time because clearly what I want in a leader isn't what the majority are looking for. Andy Burnham is very popular with many of the kinds of voters Labour needs to win back. I would be a fool to ignore that, just as you would be a fool to ignore just how many voters Ed gained (enough to replace those lost to the SNP and Ukip) that someone like Kendall could potentially lose by clinging onto the New Labour past. Ed was moving in the right direction, I want to keep going in that direction. Reverting to New Labour will only take Labour back to 2005 at best, the 4m voters Blair lost aren't coming back unless Labour genuinely changes. If you can't even admit the voters Blair lost are a major block to Labour regaining power, that many SNP supporters cite Blair as the reason they abandoned Labour, I'm afraid it's hard to take you seriously as it makes you as blinkered as you accuse others of being.

thatchersorphan · Post by **thatchersorphan** » Thu 28 May, 2015 3:30 pm

The government’s benefit cap is an example of “social justice in action”, Iain Duncan Smith has said. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 80514.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
See my post late last night for which families will not be able to afford social or private rental housing

thatchersorphan · Post by **thatchersorphan** » Thu 28 May, 2015 3:40 pm

http://graduatefog.co.uk/2015/4066/bbc- ... t-grafter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **refitman** » Thu 28 May, 2015 3:41 pm

citizenJA wrote:
refitman wrote:The referendum bill has been published (PDF): http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Scotla ... -1947.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And the explanatory notes (also PDF): http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 6002en.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The first link took me to a webpage entitled:
Scotland Bill sells Scotland short
Is that part of the referendum bill I'm not seeing? Thank you, refitman.

Ah, I just copied the link from AS's blog (didn't check it). I have asked him for the correct one. Will post it if I see it.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Thu 28 May, 2015 3:56 pm

As the Scotland Bill has been mentioned, perhaps it's worth quoting Sturgeon's considered opinion:

From my glance at it, I think it falls short in almost every area.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3786042

So there we have it - let's not bother to read it, just start griping about it.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 28 May, 2015 4:27 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:As the Scotland Bill has been mentioned, perhaps it's worth quoting Sturgeon's considered opinion:
From my glance at it, I think it falls short in almost every area.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3786042
So there we have it - let's not bother to read it, just start griping about it.

Cameron possibly can't afford to allow Scotland to have too different a welfare policy as it would be too easy to contrast and compare the results. It could make it easier for his detractors to argue his welfare policies are failing when compared to Scotland.

Post by **refitman** » Thu 28 May, 2015 4:46 pm

refitman wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
refitman wrote:The referendum bill has been published (PDF): http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... /16002.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And the explanatory notes (also PDF): http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 6002en.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The first link took me to a webpage entitled:
Scotland Bill sells Scotland short
Is that part of the referendum bill I'm not seeing? Thank you, refitman.
Ah, I just copied the link from AS's blog (didn't check it). I have asked him for the correct one. Will post it if I see it.

Got the correct link now: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... /16002.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 28 May, 2015 4:49 pm

Official figures have confirmed that Britain’s growth rate slowed to 0.3% in the first three months of the year after an improvement in construction output was offset by a slowdown in the services sector.
The second estimate of GDP by the Office for National Statistics was expected to show that the halving of the UK’s quarterly growth rate had been exaggerated and would be revised upwards.

Expectations were dashed.

Vicky Redwood, the chief UK economist at Capital Economics, said the net trade figure was “hardly good news from a rebalancing point of view...the biggest positive contribution came from stockbuilding – up 0.5 percentage points – which is not generally considered a very sustainable source of growth.”

She remains optimistic the recovery is a recovery though.

The ONS pointed out that neither construction nor manufacturing had rebounded from the financial crash to take output its previous peak.
“Although, there has been widespread growth across all major components of GDP since the start of 2013, the service industry remains the largest and steadiest contributor to overall economic growth, and is the only headline industry in which output has exceeded pre-downturn levels,” it said.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... -unchanged" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(my bold)
No way around that, it's bad news.
Crap Tory economy.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Thu 28 May, 2015 5:36 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:... There seems to be little appetite for Governments to get to the bottom of this mainly, I expect, because those who fund political parties are neck deep in it all

Funny you should say so, howsillyofme1, 'cause I just read something from a Czech publication (via Google Translate - dunno any Czech - usually finish with Google Translate even when I do read originals) about a Swiis and EU agreement (yesterday?) over greater transparency of account holders ref. tax. I may be wrong on date as I'd followed a link, it may be just another account of past announcements.

Strangely quiet regarding HSBC though, don't you think? Neither did we hear any more of the shortfall that Osborne had earlier promised from Swiss accounts.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 28 May, 2015 5:43 pm

Entitlement to vote in the referendum
(1) Those entitled to vote in the referendum are—

- (a) the persons who, on the date of the referendum, would be entitled to
vote as electors at a parliamentary election in any constituency,

- (b) the persons who, on that date, are disqualified by reason of being peers
from voting as electors at parliamentary elections but—

-- (i) would be entitled to vote as electors at a local government
election in any electoral area in Great Britain,

-- (ii) would be entitled to vote as electors at a local election in any
district electoral area in Northern Ireland, or

-- (iii) would be entitled to vote as electors at a European
Parliamentary election in any electoral region by virtue of
section 3 of the Representation of the People Act 1985 (peers
resident outside the United Kingdom), and

- (c) Commonwealth citizens who, on the date of the referendum, would be
entitled to vote in Gibraltar as electors at a European Parliamentary
election in the combined electoral region in which Gibraltar is
comprised.

I don't understand the specific reference to Gibraltar.
Everyone in all the British Overseas Territories are British citizens.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Thu 28 May, 2015 5:46 pm

Happy Birthday @Ohso, I hope you're having a day filled with love and fun and prezzies and cake. Much love and many hugs, you lovely lady

xxx

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Thu 28 May, 2015 5:58 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Entitlement to vote in the referendum
(1) Those entitled to vote in the referendum are—

- (a) the persons who, on the date of the referendum, would be entitled to
vote as electors at a parliamentary election in any constituency,

- (b) the persons who, on that date, are disqualified by reason of being peers
from voting as electors at parliamentary elections but—

-- (i) would be entitled to vote as electors at a local government
election in any electoral area in Great Britain,

-- (ii) would be entitled to vote as electors at a local election in any
district electoral area in Northern Ireland, or

-- (iii) would be entitled to vote as electors at a European
Parliamentary election in any electoral region by virtue of
section 3 of the Representation of the People Act 1985 (peers
resident outside the United Kingdom), and

- (c) Commonwealth citizens who, on the date of the referendum, would be
entitled to vote in Gibraltar as electors at a European Parliamentary
election in the combined electoral region in which Gibraltar is
comprised.
I don't understand the specific reference to Gibraltar.
Everyone in all the British Overseas Territories are British citizens.

Gibraltar is the only BOT that is part of the EU. If the UK leaves, so (presumably) does Gib.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 28 May, 2015 6:11 pm

Just had my son, his wife and their three daughters and their two dogs around. We shared a box of birthday chocolates, and ended up talking about-----Politics

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 28 May, 2015 6:15 pm

utopiandreams wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:... There seems to be little appetite for Governments to get to the bottom of this mainly, I expect, because those who fund political parties are neck deep in it all
Funny you should say so, howsillyofme1, 'cause I just read something from a Czech publication (via Google Translate - dunno any Czech - usually finish with Google Translate even when I do read originals) about a Swiis and EU agreement (yesterday?) over greater transparency of account holders ref. tax. I may be wrong on date as I'd followed a link, it may be just another account of past announcements.

Strangely quiet regarding HSBC though, don't you think? Neither did we hear any more of the shortfall that Osborne had earlier promised from Swiss accounts.

I read the other day in a foreign newspaper that the Swiss banks are going to publish names. They listed the countries that had demanded it...Funnily enough GB wasn't on the list...

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 28 May, 2015 6:35 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Entitlement to vote in the referendum
(1) Those entitled to vote in the referendum are—

- (a) the persons who, on the date of the referendum, would be entitled to
vote as electors at a parliamentary election in any constituency,

- (b) the persons who, on that date, are disqualified by reason of being peers
from voting as electors at parliamentary elections but—

-- (i) would be entitled to vote as electors at a local government
election in any electoral area in Great Britain,

-- (ii) would be entitled to vote as electors at a local election in any
district electoral area in Northern Ireland, or

-- (iii) would be entitled to vote as electors at a European
Parliamentary election in any electoral region by virtue of
section 3 of the Representation of the People Act 1985 (peers
resident outside the United Kingdom), and

- (c) Commonwealth citizens who, on the date of the referendum, would be
entitled to vote in Gibraltar as electors at a European Parliamentary
election in the combined electoral region in which Gibraltar is
comprised.
I don't understand the specific reference to Gibraltar.
Everyone in all the British Overseas Territories are British citizens.
Gibraltar is the only BOT that is part of the EU. If the UK leaves, so (presumably) does Gib.

Thank you, Eric, I'm a little embarrassed for missing something so obvious.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 28 May, 2015 7:04 pm

Today I had my best birthday present ever. Hannah my 18 years old granddaughter who is autistic and doesn't like any sort of touching or bodily contact actually came to me without any prompting gave me a hug and let me kiss her cheek. Bloody brilliant !!!!!!!!

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Thu 28 May, 2015 7:13 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote:
citizenJA wrote: I don't understand the specific reference to Gibraltar.
Everyone in all the British Overseas Territories are British citizens.
Gibraltar is the only BOT that is part of the EU. If the UK leaves, so (presumably) does Gib.
Thank you, Eric, I'm a little embarrassed for missing something so obvious.

No need to be embarrassed - Gibraltar has a unique status among the BOTs. It's not its geographical location that makes it a member, it's presumably an agreement with the UK. In theory, all of the BOTs could have been part of the EU - even the Falklands!
Other countries have similar arrangements The Canaries are members courtesy of Spain, Madeira and Azores courtesy of Portugal etc.

It's an interesting thought that if the referendum was very close, the population of Gibraltar could swing it one way or the other. (Wee Nicky hasn't thought of that

).

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 28 May, 2015 7:13 pm

George Galloway tweets his intention to run for London mayor
The Respect party leader, who lost his seat in the election, posts photo of himself sitting next to his infant son, captioned: ‘Dad, you’ve got to do this’
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ndon-mayor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have no comment that would do justice to this announcement.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 28 May, 2015 7:31 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
George Galloway tweets his intention to run for London mayor
The Respect party leader, who lost his seat in the election, posts photo of himself sitting next to his infant son, captioned: ‘Dad, you’ve got to do this’
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ndon-mayor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have no comment that would do justice to this announcement.

Allow me....

"Meh"

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 28 May, 2015 7:40 pm

mikems wrote:We live in a class dominated, rotten society, full of privilege and injustice, full of social division and hatred generated by a corrupt and complicit media, driven to extremes by the roller-coaster demands of the ruling elites and their need to increase their wealth on a constant basis, and the main problem we have is an over-optimisitic left, not a section of society that sees all the above as natural and right.

Pretty much sums it up. 2000 years of it now. Am sick of it.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 28 May, 2015 7:57 pm

For anybody who would like to understand why FIFA are completely screwed here is a link to the Avon Cosmetics case brought under the Corrupt Foreign Practices Act.

http://www.dentons.com/~/media/PDFs/Ins ... ements.pdf

Now a few points here.

Scale is probably rather less than the FIFA allegations.

Avon spent a lot of money investigating themselves. They could do so only because the US government were happy that they were doing so honestly. Can you imagine what would have happened if Avon had adopted the Blatter defence....

Post by **refitman** » Thu 28 May, 2015 7:59 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Today I had my best birthday present ever. Hannah my 18 years old granddaughter who is autistic and doesn't like any sort of touching or bodily contact actually came to me without any prompting gave me a hug and let me kiss her cheek. Bloody brilliant !!!!!!!!

That's great Ohso. Happy Birthday! hope you had a great day.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Thu 28 May, 2015 8:25 pm

Happy bidet Ohso!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 28 May, 2015 8:52 pm

Goodnight, everyone.

@Ohsocynical

Enjoy the evening!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 28 May, 2015 9:29 pm

George Galloway, Diane Abbott, David Miliband, Nicola Sturgeon. Not to mention TCC.
What the hell are we doing?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 28 May, 2015 9:31 pm

PorFavor wrote:Goodnight, everyone.

@Ohsocynical

Enjoy the evening!

Goodnight, PorFavor

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 28 May, 2015 9:32 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 81795.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
some footbal fans more annoyed about women footballers than FIFA corruption. same people no doubt who think Jeremy Clarkson is a god.
facts are not sacred, they really don't matter. It's all about, as the much-missed Mr Snozers would say, "narrative"

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 28 May, 2015 10:11 pm

Badger Trust send an open letter to the British Veterinary Association, calling on them to withdraw support for the badger culls in view of the continued use of free shooting, which they consider is inhumane.

http://www.badgertrust.org.uk/media/747 ... =0,0,0,0,0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is quite clear that both the Government and NFU simply intend to kill as
many badgers as possible, as cheaply as possible, without regard to animal
welfare issues. We feel this is something you would not condone.
Until now the Government has been happy to take advantage of the BVA’s
support for the badger cull to give the impression that their policy is humane
and has the full support of the veterinary profession. However, it has been
quick to dismiss your views now that they no longer concur with their political
objectives.
This is the kind of disdain and disrespect we have been experiencing all along
from this government and now the BVA has joined us and the many eminent
scientists whose work and expertise is simply being brushed aside regardless
of the truth, animal welfare or even basic rationality in pursuit of reducing TB
in cattle.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 28 May, 2015 10:11 pm

Evening all.

Happy Birthday Ohsocynical!

I notice there's a story in the DT about Prince William and his football team which just happens to be Aston Villa. That wouldn't be why Cameron started to pretend to like football again after having ignored it for years would it?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 28 May, 2015 10:20 pm

BBC defends reality show involving poor, dubbed 'Hunger Games'
Britain’s Hardest Grafter will pit 25 of Britain’s lowest-paid workers against each other for cash prize in series it claims is a ‘serious social experiment’
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/m ... nger-games" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm feeling 'disgruntled of west Wales' about this. Got the refrain 'you're not making poverty porn with my bloody licence fee' running round my head.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 28 May, 2015 10:38 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
BBC defends reality show involving poor, dubbed 'Hunger Games'
Britain’s Hardest Grafter will pit 25 of Britain’s lowest-paid workers against each other for cash prize in series it claims is a ‘serious social experiment’
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/m ... nger-games" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm feeling 'disgruntled of west Wales' about this. Got the refrain 'you're not making poverty porn with my bloody licence fee' running round my head.

I was angry after having read the article.
I'm still angry.
I've never been so offended in my life - that's what it feels like to me, anyway.

edited to correct grammar
apologies

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 28 May, 2015 10:44 pm

Douglas Carswell MPVerified account
‏@DouglasCarswell
Sad and disappointed to see a break-away group of UKIP councillors in Tendring. I will, of course, work with our official UKIP group

Tim Montgomerie ن @montie · 11h 11 hours ago
Tim Montgomerie ن retweeted Douglas Carswell MP
The People's Front of Tendring has split from the Tendring People's Front. Unforeseeable

thatchersorphan · Post by **thatchersorphan** » Thu 28 May, 2015 10:57 pm

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fi ... ap-5780398" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; First victims of Tory welfare cap: Family of 9 evicted from their home by bailiffs

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Thu 28 May, 2015 11:15 pm

@RogerOThornhill: Last night you said you were saving some thoughts on the '£20bn of welfare savings' from the last Parliament to share today. Can we hope to read them soon?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 28 May, 2015 11:27 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:@RogerOThornhill: Last night you said you were saving some thoughts on the '£20bn of welfare savings' from the last Parliament to share today. Can we hope to read them soon?

You're right, I did! I was in the library all day and never got round to posting.

It's not that exciting really - I came to the conclusion that it's some internal figures that they've come up with that they've decided that they can't trust us with knowing.

All I did was look at what they forecast in the budget in 2010 for the years 2010/11 - 2014/5 and comapre with (i) what actually happened and (ii) what they're forecasting for the final year which wasn't known at the time of the budget/

Budget 2010....................193.2......199........203.5......206.7......213.6......1016
Actual/Forecast................193.9......202.1.....211.4......209.4......214.5......1031.3

So spent £15.3bn in the 5 years more than they forecast back in 2010. If they did save £20bn, then I can't see how.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 28 May, 2015 11:37 pm

Goodnight, everyone
anger, fear & love - can they all be present in a person at the same time?
yes
love
cJA

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 29 May, 2015 12:16 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote:@RogerOThornhill: Last night you said you were saving some thoughts on the '£20bn of welfare savings' from the last Parliament to share today. Can we hope to read them soon?
You're right, I did! I was in the library all day and never got round to posting.

It's not that exciting really - I came to the conclusion that it's some internal figures that they've come up with that they've decided that they can't trust us with knowing.

All I did was look at what they forecast in the budget in 2010 for the years 2010/11 - 2014/5 and comapre with (i) what actually happened and (ii) what they're forecasting for the final year which wasn't known at the time of the budget/

Budget 2010....................193.2......199........203.5......206.7......213.6......1016
Actual/Forecast................193.9......202.1.....211.4......209.4......214.5......1031.3

So spent £15.3bn in the 5 years more than they forecast back in 2010. If they did save £20bn, then I can't see how.

Thank you

Yep, and I'd guess that the internal ~~fudge~~ figures would say summat like 'ah, but if we hadn't introduced our ~~changes and freezes~~ magnificent Welfare Reforms then we would have spend £20bn more than the extra £15.3bn that we said we weren't going to spend so, um... Oh no, that works out worse. Drat. Release the IDS-bot and make sure it's programmed to say "The reality is, £20bn saved, I Believe™" repeatedly and to bang the desk a bit...'

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 29 May, 2015 12:17 am

Goodnight, @cJA - sweet dreams.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 29 May, 2015 12:40 am

The Daily Telegraphs has a front-page article claiming that the over-70s will become second-class citizens in the NHS because of new UN targets on preventing premature deaths.

The NHS will be forced to discriminate against the over 70s to meet ‘highly unethical’ UN health targets which seek to reduce premature deaths in younger people, senior medics have warned.
Under the proposed Sustainable Development Goals, UN member states must cut the number of deaths from diseases like cancer, stroke, diabetes and dementia by one third by 2030.
However because many are age-related illnesses people who succumb to those diseases from the age of 70 are not deemed to have died prematurely and so are not included in the target.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/ ... rgets.html

Hobiejoe · Post by **Hobiejoe** » Fri 29 May, 2015 1:11 am

LadyCentauria wrote:The Daily Telegraphs has a front-page article claiming that the over-70s will become second-class citizens in the NHS because of new UN targets on preventing premature deaths.
The NHS will be forced to discriminate against the over 70s to meet ‘highly unethical’ UN health targets which seek to reduce premature deaths in younger people, senior medics have warned.
Under the proposed Sustainable Development Goals, UN member states must cut the number of deaths from diseases like cancer, stroke, diabetes and dementia by one third by 2030.
However because many are age-related illnesses people who succumb to those diseases from the age of 70 are not deemed to have died prematurely and so are not included in the target.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/ ... rgets.html

Yet more 'divide and rule'. Don't suppose it occurred to anyone at the Telegraph that these are global targets (hint: United Nations) and that, that, that....Oh gods. It's late, again, I'm knackered and frustrated and I can't even manage giving the Telegraph a kicking. Even though that "death targets" bit in the url smacks mightily of Republican "death panels" rhetoric.

In the meantime, re sprog2, it seems we have a lot of reading up on DSM-V 299.00 to do. Thanks a fucking bunch to Virgin"care" who have been given children's mental health services in Devon, and through their wonderful private sector know-how have taken three sodding years to get a diagnosis to us. The practitioners are wonderful, the system they have to work in is appalling. Two of them actually apologised, and gave reasons for the problems in getting reports out (staff cuts, as if you'd be surprised), which I've never come across before.

His school has pissed me off as well. It was an excellent school back in the old LEA days. They opted to become a "Federation" with three other local schools, and have recently jumped into bed with two secondary schools to form a MAT. Their SEN provision has been abysmal.

Harrumph. Thank you for letting me e-vent a little.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 29 May, 2015 1:55 am

Hobiejoe wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote:The Daily Telegraphs has a front-page article claiming that the over-70s will become second-class citizens in the NHS because of new UN targets on preventing premature deaths.
The NHS will be forced to discriminate against the over 70s to meet ‘highly unethical’ UN health targets which seek to reduce premature deaths in younger people, senior medics have warned.
Under the proposed Sustainable Development Goals, UN member states must cut the number of deaths from diseases like cancer, stroke, diabetes and dementia by one third by 2030.
However because many are age-related illnesses people who succumb to those diseases from the age of 70 are not deemed to have died prematurely and so are not included in the target.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/ ... rgets.html
Yet more 'divide and rule'. Don't suppose it occurred to anyone at the Telegraph that these are global targets (hint: United Nations) and that, that, that....Oh gods. It's late, again, I'm knackered and frustrated and I can't even manage giving the Telegraph a kicking. Even though that "death targets" bit in the url smacks mightily of Republican "death panels" rhetoric.

In the meantime, re sprog2, it seems we have a lot of reading up on DSM-V 299.00 to do. Thanks a fucking bunch to Virgin"care" who have been given children's mental health services in Devon, and through their wonderful private sector know-how have taken three sodding years to get a diagnosis to us. The practitioners are wonderful, the system they have to work in is appalling. Two of them actually apologised, and gave reasons for the problems in getting reports out (staff cuts, as if you'd be surprised), which I've never come across before.

His school has pissed me off as well. It was an excellent school back in the old LEA days. They opted to become a "Federation" with three other local schools, and have recently jumped into bed with two secondary schools to form a MAT. Their SEN provision has been abysmal.

Harrumph. Thank you for letting me e-vent a little.

Yep, and you've put your finger on one of the things that was nagging me about that article. World-wide targets. A world where far too many have little chance of living to reach 'old age.' As far as I can see, there's nothing to say that funding for treatment should be withdrawn from the over-seventies, or that they shouldn't be treated with the same urgency as younger people. And, yes, using the words 'death targets' in the url does have the resonance you suggest – I'd say their use is intentionally inflammatory.

Glad that you finally have a diagnosis for sprog2, although it's taken far too long and now leaves you with a whole heap of new research to do and, doubtless, more battles to fight on his behalf. e-vent whenever you like; listening to each other and supporting each other (even if it's only through the screens on our devices) is surely what we're here for – not just for the grand-scale campaigning and information sharing but at the personal level too. I hope your lad will get the support he needs, now, truly.

Hobiejoe · Post by **Hobiejoe** » Fri 29 May, 2015 2:19 am

LadyCentauria wrote:
Hobiejoe wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote:The Daily Telegraphs has a front-page article claiming that the over-70s will become second-class citizens in the NHS because of new UN targets on preventing premature deaths. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/ ... rgets.html
Yet more 'divide and rule'. Don't suppose it occurred to anyone at the Telegraph that these are global targets (hint: United Nations) and that, that, that....Oh gods. It's late, again, I'm knackered and frustrated and I can't even manage giving the Telegraph a kicking. Even though that "death targets" bit in the url smacks mightily of Republican "death panels" rhetoric.

In the meantime, re sprog2, it seems we have a lot of reading up on DSM-V 299.00 to do. Thanks a fucking bunch to Virgin"care" who have been given children's mental health services in Devon, and through their wonderful private sector know-how have taken three sodding years to get a diagnosis to us. The practitioners are wonderful, the system they have to work in is appalling. Two of them actually apologised, and gave reasons for the problems in getting reports out (staff cuts, as if you'd be surprised), which I've never come across before.

His school has pissed me off as well. It was an excellent school back in the old LEA days. They opted to become a "Federation" with three other local schools, and have recently jumped into bed with two secondary schools to form a MAT. Their SEN provision has been abysmal.

Harrumph. Thank you for letting me e-vent a little.
Yep, and you've put your finger on one of the things that was nagging me about that article. World-wide targets. A world where far too many have little chance of living to reach 'old age.' As far as I can see, there's nothing to say that funding for treatment should be withdrawn from the over-seventies, or that they shouldn't be treated with the same urgency as younger people. And, yes, using the words 'death targets' in the url does have the resonance you suggest – I'd say their use is intentionally inflammatory.

Glad that you finally have a diagnosis for sprog2, although it's taken far too long and now leaves you with a whole heap of new research to do and, doubtless, more battles to fight on his behalf. e-vent whenever you like; listening to each other and supporting each other (even if it's only through the screens on our devices) is surely what we're here for – not just for the grand-scale campaigning and information sharing but at the personal level too. I hope your lad will get the support he needs, now, truly.

Thank'ee mi'Lady, appreciate the good thoughts *doffs cap because my forelock blocked the shower drain quite some time ago and is no longer tuggable*

Time for bed, I feel. Back to work far too soon. Night all.