Sat 30 to Sun 31 May - don't say it's another bank holiday

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 30 May, 2015 8:20 am

g'day

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 30 May, 2015 8:36 am

Morning.

Thank you seeingclearly for your wonderful, deep thinking and illustrative posts from late last night. I will be carrying the concept of the 'blame virus' with me today. Well worth a look for others who didn't catch them.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 30 May, 2015 8:47 am

Morning.

We always hear that socialism/Labour/left wing policies are bad for business.
The press and the BBC don't even seem to bother challenging that idea.

We watched a recording of BBC's 'Italy Unpacked', a journey through Italy's food and art with chef Giorgio Locatelli & art critic Andrew Graham-Dixon last night.

They visited Emilia Romagna, known for its left wing politics and also the home of my mother's family.

Bologna is known as La Rossa, because of the colour of the building stone, and because for some 70 years there's been [apart from some short blips to the right] left wing, including communist, political administration.

According to our right wing pals Bologna should be some sort of s*** hole, run down, non functioning, business poor.

But it is quite the opposite.
As Locatelli & Graham-Dixon showed, left wing policies including low business rates have encouraged small & traditional family business to thrive and maintain a local connection.
It has topped quality of life surveys for Italian town and cities. The wealthy have not fled the area.

The economy there has an advantage, being in a good geographical position near motorway & railway but it has thrived. Wiki says:

''The economy of Bologna is characterized by a flourishing industrial sector, traditionally based on the transformation of agricultural and zootechnical products (Granarolo, Segafredo Zanetti).
It also includes machinery (Coesia), automobiles, footwear, textile, engineering, chemical, printing and publishing industries, as well as a strong financial, insurance (Unipol) and retail (Coop Italia, Conad) activity. The city's Fiera District (exhibition centre) is one of the largest in Europe, with important yearly international expos focused on the automobile sector (Bologna Motor Show), ceramics for the building industry (International Exhibition of Ceramic Tiles and Bathroom Furnishings) and food industry. In addition, several important firms in the fields of automobiles (Lamborghini), motorcycles (Ducati), mechanics, food, tobacco and electronics have their headquarters in the urban area of Bologna, as well as important retail and wholesale trade (the "Centergross" in Argelato, esabilished in 1973), and one of the largest Italian food processing companies (Conserve Italia).''

So what's my point you may ask ?
Apart from making me want to go back to Italy, it shows that left wing politics at a local and regional level is not a bad thing for business.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 30 May, 2015 8:51 am

Mornin' all

I heartily second your comments, @rr2, 'twas a seriously good post from @seeingclearly at the end of yesterday's thread. I read it three times and recommend it to everyone – it should be cross-posted to Features & Analysis, methinks.

Here's a thing I don't think we covered, the other day, 'though the subject of Manchester (DevoManc) has been widely discussed. Tony Lloyd, currently Police & Crime Commissioner for Manchester, has been chosen as the 'Interim Mayor' for the area (until a public election is held in 2017) and I wondered what are the view of our Manchester area Havenites/FTNers? @Ernst?:
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... er-9357302

Oh deities/sky-fairies! I've just heard, on Today, that today's print edition of the Guardian has a scratch-and-sniff cover... Prada... perfume... Rusbridger is on now.

And fear not, @TC, no more Bank Hols 'til the August one.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 30 May, 2015 8:53 am

Radio 4 again doing an attack job on something, anything they can find to poke at in being vaguely left supporting - this time it's Alan Rusbridger's leaving interview and he's being questioned on running a paper that's so 'out of kilter' with the rest of the country. Apparently all the columnists are clearly left wing and desparate for a Labour government.

I am obviously living in a parallel universe again - at least for the duration of this programme.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 30 May, 2015 8:57 am

Here's confirmation. I find I am living in Abbott world.

Diane Abbott ‏@HackneyAbbott 1m1 minute ago
So @JustinOnWeb ( not so closet Tory) attacks @arusbridger and the politics of @guardian @BBCr4today

Tonibel · Post by **Tonibel** » Sat 30 May, 2015 9:00 am

Just back from holiday in France with several Tories (more anon) so still catching up but, per yahyah, when comments were made about superb roads, beautiful flowers and lack of litter, I made a point of saying that was a direct result of socialist government. Didn't go down well. Further report when proper keyboard available.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 30 May, 2015 9:01 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:Radio 4 again doing an attack job on something, anything they can find to poke at in being vaguely left supporting - this time it's Alan Rusbridger's leaving interview and he's being questioned on running a paper that's so 'out of kilter' with the rest of the country. Apparently all the columnists are clearly left wing and desparate for a Labour government.

I am obviously living in a parallel universe again - at least for the duration of this programme.

That was John Humphreys no doubt.
On the morning of May 8th, at about 8am I switched on and heard him make a snarky joke about Labour's wipe out in Scotland. He was no doubt delighted that he won't have his 45p in the £ tax increased back to 50p.

I heard someone earlier this morning snorting with derision at a short clip of Allen Ginsberg poetry reading when it was trailed for later in the programme. He really is Daily Mail man

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 30 May, 2015 9:20 am

I do get enraged about the fact that people don't want to pay for the things they want and then moan when they don't have them.
I think this is another strong line on the "new narrative" front.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 30 May, 2015 9:21 am

Like Potholes (seethe seethe)
And parking (councils fining drivers for parking violations are maliciously "taxing" drivers).

My arse.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 30 May, 2015 9:22 am

@Yahyah: That's a great series, and I particularly enjoyed that episode.

And welcome back, @Tonibel. Yep, more good examples of what socialism can achieve.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sat 30 May, 2015 9:32 am

yahyah wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:Radio 4 again doing an attack job on something, anything they can find to poke at in being vaguely left supporting - this time it's Alan Rusbridger's leaving interview and he's being questioned on running a paper that's so 'out of kilter' with the rest of the country. Apparently all the columnists are clearly left wing and desparate for a Labour government.

I am obviously living in a parallel universe again - at least for the duration of this programme.

That was John Humphreys no doubt.
On the morning of May 8th, at about 8am I switched on and heard him make a snarky joke about Labour's wipe out in Scotland. He was no doubt delighted that he won't have his 45p in the £ tax increased back to 50p.

I heard someone earlier this morning snorting with derision at a short clip of an Allen Ginsberg poetry reading when it was trailed for later in the programme. He really is Daily Mail man

No it was Justin Webb. Basically saying we're all on the right now except for a few pinkoes like Guardian readers. And I smiled because I knew that I'm not paying the Tory tosspot's massively over-inflated wages.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 30 May, 2015 10:06 am

Events are coming along to prick their smug bubble, hopefully

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 30 May, 2015 10:14 am

I know I'm all talk at the moment, but I will work on the EU pros/cons spreadsheet and 34 things .... from the end of June. Am just gathering for now. Will come back with a proposal later - unless someone else does so first!

My thinking so far is that we cannot run with facts alone, and we are shifting deeply felt beliefs honed by decades of a predominantly right-wing elite-owned and staffed press. Tools we have are:

- surprise (like tonibel's litter-gets-cleared-up-if-you-choose-to-pay-for-it)
- ridicule (like the Lincolshire bypass)
- clear cockups

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 May, 2015 10:45 am

Goodmorfternoon.

I haven't been able to read seeingclearly's post from last night since I can't scroll past the post (at 8.07pm) by some woman who goes by the name of ohsocynical.. The site seems frozen at that point, so I'll try again later.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 30 May, 2015 10:47 am

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 30 May, 2015 10:49 am

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=518&p=55454#p55454" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
but also see if this helps

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 30 May, 2015 10:55 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:I know I'm all talk at the moment, but I will work on the EU pros/cons spreadsheet and 34 things .... from the end of June. Am just gathering for now. Will come back with a proposal later - unless someone else does so first!

My thinking so far is that we cannot run with facts alone, and we are shifting deeply felt beliefs honed by decades of a predominantly right-wing elite-owned and staffed press. Tools we have are:

- surprise (like tonibel's litter-gets-cleared-up-if-you-choose-to-pay-for-it)
- ridicule (like the Lincolshire bypass)
- clear cockups

EU Budget Myths and facts is a good page to find positive info

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/explained/myths/myths_en.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EU Grants for development is another
http://ec.europa.eu/grants/introduction_en.htm#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

European Regional Development Fund (ERDF)
http://www.europeanfundingne.co.uk/euro ... -erdf.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

European Funding Network
http://europeanfundingnetwork.eu/funding-advice" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(@Ephe - if you are reading this some of these might apply to the project you are working on....)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 May, 2015 11:00 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:viewtopic.php?f=4&t=518&p=55454#p55454
but also see if this helps

Thank you!

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 30 May, 2015 11:06 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

We always hear that socialism/Labour/left wing policies are bad for business.
The press and the BBC don't even seem to bother challenging that idea.

We watched a recording of BBC's 'Italy Unpacked', a journey through Italy's food and art with chef Giorgio Locatelli & art critic Andrew Graham-Dixon last night.

They visited Emilia Romagna, known for its left wing politics and also the home of my mother's family.

Bologna is known as La Rossa, because of the colour of the building stone, and because for some 70 years there's been [apart from some short blips to the right] left wing, including communist, political administration.

According to our right wing pals Bologna should be some sort of s*** hole, run down, non functioning, business poor.

But it is quite the opposite.
As Locatelli & Graham-Dixon showed, left wing policies including low business rates have encouraged small & traditional family business to thrive and maintain a local connection.
It has topped quality of life surveys for Italian town and cities. The wealthy have not fled the area.

The economy there has an advantage, being in a good geographical position near motorway & railway but it has thrived. Wiki says:

''The economy of Bologna is characterized by a flourishing industrial sector, traditionally based on the transformation of agricultural and zootechnical products (Granarolo, Segafredo Zanetti).
It also includes machinery (Coesia), automobiles, footwear, textile, engineering, chemical, printing and publishing industries, as well as a strong financial, insurance (Unipol) and retail (Coop Italia, Conad) activity. The city's Fiera District (exhibition centre) is one of the largest in Europe, with important yearly international expos focused on the automobile sector (Bologna Motor Show), ceramics for the building industry (International Exhibition of Ceramic Tiles and Bathroom Furnishings) and food industry. In addition, several important firms in the fields of automobiles (Lamborghini), motorcycles (Ducati), mechanics, food, tobacco and electronics have their headquarters in the urban area of Bologna, as well as important retail and wholesale trade (the "Centergross" in Argelato, esabilished in 1973), and one of the largest Italian food processing companies (Conserve Italia).''

So what's my point you may ask ?
Apart from making me want to go back to Italy, it shows that left wing politics at a local and regional level is not a bad thing for business.

This is the sort of thing I thought would be good on a blog. Positive stories about how left-wing philosophy can lead to a better way of life and the practical policies that make it happen. Stuff that Ed Miliband touched on but didn't develop enough, such as the regional banks in Germany that actively invest in local businesses and more about how unions in Germany aren't some kind of enemy but work with investors to create successful companies. Even if we don't get a blog going it would be good to collect such positive accounts of socialism in action together to remind ourselves what those on the left are working towards, as well as all the excellent stuff on the Tories that exemplifies what we're against.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 May, 2015 11:26 am

PorFavor wrote:Goodmorfternoon.

I haven't been able to read seeingclearly's post from last night since I can't scroll past the post (at 8.07pm) by some woman who goes by the name of ohsocynical.. The site seems frozen at that point, so I'll try again later.

Ah. That was Pam Ayres poem about Blatter....

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 30 May, 2015 11:27 am

One thing to remember when discussing Ed M's failings (real or imagined) is that he never gained an unequivocal mandate to lead in the first place - the fact he never won a plurality of members or MPs was always going to be used against him, and more importantly it gave many in the party (MPs in particular) an excuse to remain unreconciled to his leadership. And meant that his efforts to keep the party united, whilst in many ways admirable (especially in view of the party's past history) came at a considerable cost - why else do you think he stuck by somebody as fundamentally useless as Douglas "Bob Shrum" Alexander so doggedly for so long, for example? And meant that the policy offers were often watered down "lowest common denominator" stuff that ultimately failed to convince.

Well, the new election is by OMOV so at least the new leader shouldn't have that problem. Not if they are Burnham or Cooper, anyway.....

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 May, 2015 11:29 am

ohsocynical wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Goodmorfternoon.

I haven't been able to read seeingclearly's post from last night since I can't scroll past the post (at 8.07pm) by some woman who goes by the name of ohsocynical.. The site seems frozen at that point, so I'll try again later.
Ah. That was Pam Ayres poem about Blatter....

Ha! Don't try to shift the blame . . .

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 May, 2015 11:30 am

Lots of swearing trying to convert MS to Open Office.

I found an old memory stick with just a few items on it. I've put them on Troll busters...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 30 May, 2015 11:32 am

PorFavor wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Goodmorfternoon.

I haven't been able to read seeingclearly's post from last night since I can't scroll past the post (at 8.07pm) by some woman who goes by the name of ohsocynical.. The site seems frozen at that point, so I'll try again later.
Ah. That was Pam Ayres poem about Blatter....
Ha! Don't try to shift the blame . . .

Who me? Never...

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 30 May, 2015 11:39 am

Btw, re the 'blame virus' coined by seeingclearly last night. I'm trying very hard not to be overwhelmed by that myself when reading about Labour and the leadership contest. I see everyone who chooses to join Labour as someone who is more on my side than someone who joins the Tories, so I'm trying very hard not to attack them for the things they say (and are reported as saying). The media, to my mind, hasn't let up one jot in its attempts to completely destroy Labour since the election. Labour was supposed to tear itself apart in 2010 but didn't and the press were disappointed and, towards the end, extremely alarmed I think. Having experienced a close (Leveson shaped) call they aren't losing any time in pushing for the all out schism they were denied last time. So I'm going to read everything about Labour and the leadership contest in the MSM with a huge pinch of salt and check quotes carefully for context. Some of the comments btl at the Guardian from Tory trolls are attempting to set up a dynamic of Burnham being the 'lefty loser' and Kendall being the Blairite Torylite winner. Neither is even remotely the case, so why do it? Like with SpinningHugo's comments that insist only a move to the right ensures victory, the effect is to push many people away from Labour entirely and that surely must be the purpose. I'm not going to pay any attention. I personally feel Kendall isn't experienced enough, has a similar Spad background that Ed got attacked for but I'm not going to accuse her of being Torylite as I don't see anyone in Labour that way and I think it's damaging to the leftwing cause to fan the flames of this Tory propaganda that hopes to promote and benefit from the 'they're all the same' apathy that is destroying our democracy. I was already starting to fall for it, describing some candidates as too Blairite and I'm sorry for that. Thankfully, with lots of promising new faces, Labour has a great opportunity to put the New Labour era firmly behind it. I hope they do.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 30 May, 2015 12:14 pm

Kendall isn't a Tory no, but there is a decent argument that she *is* a "small l" liberal (as with quite a few of the Progress gang)

Such people have been part of the coalition that makes up the party for around a century, but always a minority.

As the election results for the LibDems demonstrate, "small l" liberalism is a bit out of fashion right now. I expect the Labour leadership result to confirm this too.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 30 May, 2015 12:25 pm

Andrew Spooner retweeted
ITV News ‏@ltv_news · 3h3 hours ago
BREAKING: Former Prime Minister Tony Blair to return to British politics after being selected to take an advisory seat in Tory cabinet.

Just .....no words

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 30 May, 2015 12:30 pm

Why, why were they not doing articles like this before the election?

Minister worked as spin doctor for tobacco giant that paid workers £15 a month
Priti Patel worked for PR firm Shandwick on improving BAT’s image over Burma factory, and also lobbied MEPs against EU tobacco regulations

The employment minister, Priti Patel, was part of a team of spin doctors paid hundreds of thousands of pounds to help a tobacco giant counter negative publicity, including that surrounding its joint venture with one of the world’s most brutal military regimes.
Documents unearthed by the Observer shine new light on Patel’s work for Shandwick, a lobbying and PR firm that worked for British American Tobacco (BAT) in the early years of this century.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 30 May, 2015 12:34 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Andrew Spooner retweeted
ITV News ‏@ltv_news · 3h3 hours ago
BREAKING: Former Prime Minister Tony Blair to return to British politics after being selected to take an advisory seat in Tory cabinet.

Just .....no words

Its a parody account, pal - though I don't blame you for believing it

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 30 May, 2015 12:34 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Kendall isn't a Tory no, but there is a decent argument that she *is* a "small l" liberal (as with quite a few of the Progress gang)

Such people have been part of the coalition that makes up the party for around a century, but always a minority.

As the election results for the LibDems demonstrate, "small l" liberalism is a bit out of fashion right now. I expect the Labour leadership result to confirm this too.

There have been a few grumblings about Burnham and Cooper nabbing all the support but is it really such a surprise? Labour are on the backfoot at a time when things could happen pretty quickly, despite the 5 year parliament, a 'safe pair of hands' may not be such a bad thing right now, not to mention a unanimous and popular choice would face fewer of the obstacles within the party mentioned above. Labour need a strong and united team at the forefront more than they need the perfect leader, right now. A bit of experience wouldn't go amiss.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 30 May, 2015 12:36 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Andrew Spooner retweeted
ITV News ‏@ltv_news · 3h3 hours ago
BREAKING: Former Prime Minister Tony Blair to return to British politics after being selected to take an advisory seat in Tory cabinet.

Just .....no words
Its a parody account, pal - though I don't blame you for believing it

Thanks for that - I saw Andrews re tweet and didn't check OP

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 30 May, 2015 12:46 pm

Richard Burgon MP ‏@RichardBurgon · 3h3 hours ago
I was one of 26 Labour MPs to sign a new statement on the importance of our trade unions. You can have a read here: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... union-link" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

There are still some on the left...

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 May, 2015 12:51 pm

The British left must learn to speak a new language – Spanish
Owen Jones
The victories for Podemos in Spain came after it abandoned rhetoric and reconnected with voters. Labour should listen
(Guardian)

Interesting article but I'm not clear that it says all that much that is, practically, helpful. However, this bit did strike a chord with me, and is something that I've often thought. Basically, the rich have always managed to bury their differences and stick together when it counts:

How ironic that the right preaches rampant individualism but often displays great solidarity, while the left professes collectivism, but often operates in the most rampantly individualistic way.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ing-people

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 30 May, 2015 1:19 pm

PorFavor wrote:
The British left must learn to speak a new language – Spanish
Owen Jones
The victories for Podemos in Spain came after it abandoned rhetoric and reconnected with voters. Labour should listen
(Guardian)
Interesting article but I'm not clear that it says all that much that is, practically, helpful. However, this bit did strike a chord with me, and is something that I've often thought. Basically, the rich have always managed to bury their differences and stick together when it counts:

How ironic that the right preaches rampant individualism but often displays great solidarity, while the left professes collectivism, but often operates in the most rampantly individualistic way.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ing-people

Exactly. Which is one of the reasons I am disappointed by so many leaving here. If we can't overcome our differences to work together (rather than just tell each other that that's what we should do) then we have very little hope of creating the changes we all want.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 30 May, 2015 1:20 pm

PorFavor wrote:
The British left must learn to speak a new language – Spanish
Owen Jones
The victories for Podemos in Spain came after it abandoned rhetoric and reconnected with voters. Labour should listen
(Guardian)
Interesting article but I'm not clear that it says all that much that is, practically, helpful. However, this bit did strike a chord with me, and is something that I've often thought. Basically, the rich have always managed to bury their differences and stick together when it counts:

How ironic that the right preaches rampant individualism but often displays great solidarity, while the left professes collectivism, but often operates in the most rampantly individualistic way.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ing-people

It's just easier to compromise when you lack principles.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 30 May, 2015 1:24 pm

Willow904 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
The British left must learn to speak a new language – Spanish
Owen Jones
The victories for Podemos in Spain came after it abandoned rhetoric and reconnected with voters. Labour should listen
(Guardian)
Interesting article but I'm not clear that it says all that much that is, practically, helpful. However, this bit did strike a chord with me, and is something that I've often thought. Basically, the rich have always managed to bury their differences and stick together when it counts:

How ironic that the right preaches rampant individualism but often displays great solidarity, while the left professes collectivism, but often operates in the most rampantly individualistic way.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ing-people
It's just easier to compromise when you lack principles.

Well, there is that, of course!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 30 May, 2015 1:25 pm

Willow904 wrote:Btw, re the 'blame virus' coined by seeingclearly last night. I'm trying very hard not to be overwhelmed by that myself when reading about Labour and the leadership contest. I see everyone who chooses to join Labour as someone who is more on my side than someone who joins the Tories, so I'm trying very hard not to attack them for the things they say (and are reported as saying). The media, to my mind, hasn't let up one jot in its attempts to completely destroy Labour since the election. Labour was supposed to tear itself apart in 2010 but didn't and the press were disappointed and, towards the end, extremely alarmed I think. Having experienced a close (Leveson shaped) call they aren't losing any time in pushing for the all out schism they were denied last time. So I'm going to read everything about Labour and the leadership contest in the MSM with a huge pinch of salt and check quotes carefully for context. Some of the comments btl at the Guardian from Tory trolls are attempting to set up a dynamic of Burnham being the 'lefty loser' and Kendall being the Blairite Torylite winner. Neither is even remotely the case, so why do it? Like with SpinningHugo's comments that insist only a move to the right ensures victory, the effect is to push many people away from Labour entirely and that surely must be the purpose. I'm not going to pay any attention. I personally feel Kendall isn't experienced enough, has a similar Spad background that Ed got attacked for but I'm not going to accuse her of being Torylite as I don't see anyone in Labour that way and I think it's damaging to the leftwing cause to fan the flames of this Tory propaganda that hopes to promote and benefit from the 'they're all the same' apathy that is destroying our democracy. I was already starting to fall for it, describing some candidates as too Blairite and I'm sorry for that. Thankfully, with lots of promising new faces, Labour has a great opportunity to put the New Labour era firmly behind it. I hope they do.

Oh, thank goodness!
Willow's post here.
Please print it out & read it often.
Daily.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 30 May, 2015 1:26 pm

Reading this by Liz Kendall and started thinking, yes she has (some kind of) plan. But then arrived at this bit -
"And it means backing the inspiring innovations in schools like Parks Primary to teach girls and boys – particularly from white working class communities - about the chances in life they may not even know exist - like being an engineer, a chemist, and even leader of the Labour Party."

Why the need to pointedly add the "white" - are we not all - no matter what colour - part of the community that need to "aspire" ?
Back to "she's right off the list"

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... ts-purpose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 30 May, 2015 1:34 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Andrew Spooner retweeted
ITV News ‏@ltv_news · 3h3 hours ago
BREAKING: Former Prime Minister Tony Blair to return to British politics after being selected to take an advisory seat in Tory cabinet.

Just .....no words
Its a parody account, pal - though I don't blame you for believing it

it's sick, that parody
Break people, break their heart, lives, environment

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 30 May, 2015 1:38 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Reading this by Liz Kendall and started thinking, yes she has (some kind of) plan. But then arrived at this bit -
"And it means backing the inspiring innovations in schools like Parks Primary to teach girls and boys – particularly from white working class communities - about the chances in life they may not even know exist - like being an engineer, a chemist, and even leader of the Labour Party."

Why the need to pointedly add the "white" - are we not all - no matter what colour - part of the community that need to "aspire" ?
Back to "she's right off the list"

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... ts-purpose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Make sure it wasn't put in there by someone else.
It doesn't make sense.
Reading the whole speech, the words surrounding it - it doesn't make sense.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 30 May, 2015 1:43 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Why, why were they not doing articles like this before the election?

Minister worked as spin doctor for tobacco giant that paid workers £15 a month
Priti Patel worked for PR firm Shandwick on improving BAT’s image over Burma factory, and also lobbied MEPs against EU tobacco regulations

The employment minister, Priti Patel, was part of a team of spin doctors paid hundreds of thousands of pounds to help a tobacco giant counter negative publicity, including that surrounding its joint venture with one of the world’s most brutal military regimes.
Documents unearthed by the Observer shine new light on Patel’s work for Shandwick, a lobbying and PR firm that worked for British American Tobacco (BAT) in the early years of this century.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The sight of that person's face, knowing who she's chosen to affiliate with & what she works for, is unpleasant to look at.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 30 May, 2015 1:48 pm

citizenJA wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Reading this by Liz Kendall and started thinking, yes she has (some kind of) plan. But then arrived at this bit -
"And it means backing the inspiring innovations in schools like Parks Primary to teach girls and boys – particularly from white working class communities - about the chances in life they may not even know exist - like being an engineer, a chemist, and even leader of the Labour Party."

Why the need to pointedly add the "white" - are we not all - no matter what colour - part of the community that need to "aspire" ?
Back to "she's right off the list"

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... ts-purpose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Make sure it wasn't put in there by someone else.
It doesn't make sense.
Reading the whole speech, the words surrounding it - it doesn't make sense.

Its right there in the middle of her speech, no one has put anything in, she said it.
I was warming (a little, from a frozen start point) till I got to that. No need for it, why not just "From working class homes" no need for mention of colour or ethnicity - yet she chose to stick "white" in there.

thatchersorphan · Post by **thatchersorphan** » Sat 30 May, 2015 1:49 pm

Good post last night seeingclearly - and yes I was involved with occupy- albeit from online, and still work with obi and kris, as well as others that started at occupy and have gone back to their home areas to do various actions - Dan Cole is still active, mostly in Leicester, Tristan is in Manchester a lot. I've only really been on the internet since occupy, still not on fb, only on twitter cos obi logged my pc into one of his accounts (and said now you have twitter). To me occupy is an idea and a good umbrella for causes to come together, if you've stopped keeping track of it Donnachadt McCarthy has been involved in occupy democracy and occupy murdoch and is quite clear on what the problems with finance, the media and government are. There are still a few good people involved with occupy, but its a shadow of what it could have been. It did however help start the conversations on finance and the 1%, so it did have an effect, that can be built on by others.
The tusc, radical assembly and Peoples assembly are other potential umbrellas IF they can learn to work together with other left and community groups.
One of the problems we had and still have at times is the suspicion and paranoia caused by knowing movements get infiltrated and undermined, which leads to anyone saying anything different being labelled a shill/ undercover, informer etc - instead of realising that some people have mental health issues, and some are naturally disruptive, and some just have different ideas.
The problem for me wasn't Milliband, despite the media spin, it was the labour shadow cabinet. It was Labours shameful lack of opposition to the coalitions war on the poorest and most vulnerable, made worse by me being old enough to know what labour should/could be. The abstention from the retro-active workfare bill being an example. Not media spin - I would go to labour sites and here for more accurate coverage of labour - the media coverage of ed was shameful. I will judge labour on how they vote (or fail to vote) against the tories, not on what the fail says, and will continue to value this site as somewhere to find any positives on labour.
To fight the tories the left need to work together, whichever party or movement we support - I'm very much in favour of diversity when used to bring balance, and when done with open minds. Sadly a lot of people stay so tribal they wont work with others because of which group they support, instead of remembering there are many common issues we face. Personally I think left unity could be promising (I like its manifesto), but I'll also be watching tusc, the greens, occupy initiatives and labour, plus the snp to see if the scottish population really has driven them leftwards as one of their MP's claimed. Scotland have a livestream group http://www.independencelive.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which means I can keep track of what's happening in scotland a bit better - in general our media doesn't cover any of the parties accurately.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 30 May, 2015 1:53 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
The British left must learn to speak a new language – Spanish
Owen Jones
The victories for Podemos in Spain came after it abandoned rhetoric and reconnected with voters. Labour should listen
(Guardian)
Interesting article but I'm not clear that it says all that much that is, practically, helpful. However, this bit did strike a chord with me, and is something that I've often thought. Basically, the rich have always managed to bury their differences and stick together when it counts:

How ironic that the right preaches rampant individualism but often displays great solidarity, while the left professes collectivism, but often operates in the most rampantly individualistic way.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ing-people
Exactly. Which is one of the reasons I am disappointed by so many leaving here. If we can't overcome our differences to work together (rather than just tell each other that that's what we should do) then we have very little hope of creating the changes we all want.

Yes.
It's an emotionally, physically & psychologically difficult time.
The last thing we should do is quarrel with one another - let me be rightly understood - that doesn't mean we don't disagree with one another.
I fully understand & support us all speaking our minds - it's impossible to do otherwise.

Blowing up name-calling & wicked sparring isn't speaking a mind, it's an impaired emotional state requiring mental health intervention we can only hope they receive. I can try to empathise but it didn't belong here.

The loss of TGS & RobertSnozers from this place are irreplaceable.
I'll say no more now.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 30 May, 2015 1:59 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Reading this by Liz Kendall and started thinking, yes she has (some kind of) plan. But then arrived at this bit -
"And it means backing the inspiring innovations in schools like Parks Primary to teach girls and boys – particularly from white working class communities - about the chances in life they may not even know exist - like being an engineer, a chemist, and even leader of the Labour Party."

Why the need to pointedly add the "white" - are we not all - no matter what colour - part of the community that need to "aspire" ?
Back to "she's right off the list"

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... ts-purpose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Make sure it wasn't put in there by someone else.
It doesn't make sense.
Reading the whole speech, the words surrounding it - it doesn't make sense.
Its right there in the middle of her speech, no one has put anything in, she said it.
I was warming (a little, from a frozen start point) till I got to that. No need for it, why not just "From working class homes" no need for mention of colour or ethnicity - yet she chose to stick "white" in there.

You heard & saw her say it?
Okay then.
Why not say "From working class homes" indeed.
There's no excuse for it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 30 May, 2015 2:03 pm

It was seen & heard just like it's transcribed in the NewStateman, right?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 30 May, 2015 2:05 pm

citizenJA wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
citizenJA wrote: Make sure it wasn't put in there by someone else.
It doesn't make sense.
Reading the whole speech, the words surrounding it - it doesn't make sense.
Its right there in the middle of her speech, no one has put anything in, she said it.
I was warming (a little, from a frozen start point) till I got to that. No need for it, why not just "From working class homes" no need for mention of colour or ethnicity - yet she chose to stick "white" in there.
You heard & saw her say it?
Okay then.
Why not say "From working class homes" indeed.
There's no excuse for it.

No I did not hear her say it.
"The full text of Liz Kendall's speech in her constituency"
I just think its a conspiracy theory to far to think The New Statesman would add a sentence like that to her speech.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 30 May, 2015 2:08 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Kendall isn't a Tory no, but there is a decent argument that she *is* a "small l" liberal (as with quite a few of the Progress gang)

Such people have been part of the coalition that makes up the party for around a century, but always a minority.

As the election results for the LibDems demonstrate, "small l" liberalism is a bit out of fashion right now. I expect the Labour leadership result to confirm this too.
There have been a few grumblings about Burnham and Cooper nabbing all the support but is it really such a surprise? Labour are on the backfoot at a time when things could happen pretty quickly, despite the 5 year parliament, a 'safe pair of hands' may not be such a bad thing right now, not to mention a unanimous and popular choice would face fewer of the obstacles within the party mentioned above. Labour need a strong and united team at the forefront more than they need the perfect leader, right now. A bit of experience wouldn't go amiss.

I'm inclined to agree with you, Willow. Disenchanted by Orange Bookers and without the comfort of my rickety fence I've now seen Miliband's alternative brusquely brushed aside for five more years of Tory hegemony. Whatever views, hopes or whatever has been dashed or still remains the most immediate demand of the Labour Party is to mount an effective opposition. and

Let us not forget that with or without the LibDems, Dave and George's tenure has been a catalogue of incompetence, one I doubt is about to change. A trusted parliamentarian is required; someone who can keep Dave and his tiny majority firmly in place.

An aside: 2020 seems a long way off and I was already feeling a sense of wanderlust. Maybe it's reading foreign papers, maybe it's overseas news from some of you or updates from past and forthcoming émigrés, maybe just sunshine. Last weekend I was picking up my daughter for a visit, but she didn't want one. Why spend time with boring old Dad when there's other stuff to do? Put it all together and I need to spread my wings. Need a new passport anyway.

Edit: brusquely (sp).

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 30 May, 2015 2:13 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote: Its right there in the middle of her speech, no one has put anything in, she said it.
I was warming (a little, from a frozen start point) till I got to that. No need for it, why not just "From working class homes" no need for mention of colour or ethnicity - yet she chose to stick "white" in there.
You heard & saw her say it?
Okay then.
Why not say "From working class homes" indeed.
There's no excuse for it.
No I did not hear her say it.
"The full text of Liz Kendall's speech in her constituency"
I just think its a conspiracy theory to far to think The New Statesman would add a sentence like that to her speech.

I just agreed with you. If Kendall specifically said 'particularly from white working class homes' I'm unhappy with her choice of words.