ephemerid wrote:yahyah wrote:I see that twit Craig Murray has been blaming it all on Ed & the media, and proudly saying he shouted 'war criminal' at Ed
And of course all the Yes frothers grisling about it too.
One complaining that Ed Miliband dared to turn up at a shopping centre and block the way.
The same types as usual on Cif. Brains addled with dope most likely.
And yet people who were actually there have said that the scrum was mainly due to quantities of press/media and No supporters with a few very noisy Yes protesters in a very limited space. The photos show more of a media scrum than anything else.
I happen to think it's exemplary of Miliband to go out and meet people (unlike Cameron who's too craven to set foot anywhere unless he's guaranteed a friendly audience) but campaigning in this situation is bound to involve some argy bargy.
There is no question in my mind that the G and other media are quite deliberately making out that the Yes campaigners are the root of the (few) problems there have been; personally, I think that the passion and fervour on both sides is something I'd like to see in our politics generally. Noisy stroppy people, yes; serious violence, no.
As a person in long-term recovery from addiction, I find your closing remark pejorative. People with whom you disagree are not necessarily off their heads on mind-altering substances.
I don't think I'll be commenting here for a while. At least, not on this subject.
Only one comment to make Ephie - don't your dare
not post your thoughts on FTN! I, and others, value them, and I'm damned if you're going to run yourself out of town. Man (or woman) up. Yahyah shouldn't have put it like that, but I suspect was trying to get over the almost compulsive and addictive behaviour of some supporters - from both camps, I am obliged to point out.
Having said that, I'm still firmly in the 'no' camp - as if it bleedin' mattered! - as I have seen no explanation from the 'yes' camp regarding economic issues which will - whether Sturgeon and Salmond like it or not - affect every single Scottish resident if the vote is for independence.
I get the self-determination thing, and the wish to poke the Tories in the eye, the dislike of Westminster's business-as-usual, the sense that they are disenfranchised despite voting, the feeling that they have Tory rule without having chosen it, the dislike of neoliberalism, London, the city, bankers and a London centric media that treats them as children and unworthy of serious consideration.
I get it, I get it, I get it. I get it.
What I don't get is pulling out a pistol and threatening to blow your own head off.
If devo max isn't delivered (or simply doesn't work) then I will wish the Scots
bon voyage to their eventual destination, which I suspect really isn't the one that the nats and Salmond imagine. It's a fucking big and nasty world out there, and 'plucky little independent Scotland' isn't worth the paper you'd wipe your arse with. A bigger gang - and in the case of the EU, a much bigger gang - is.
One final point.
The genii is out of the bottle; that's the most positive outcome from all of this. All the stuff above that I said I 'got', I really do. And so do so many more English, Welsh and Irish people. We don't need to embrace the flags of St George, St. David and St. Patrick to recognise that this is the end of the Union as we've known it for years. That union ended around the time that the Tories took on neoliberalism and ceased to be a unionist party - with very painful consequences, as we're now seeing.
They embraced that demon, and other parties to one degree or another have toyed with it, but none of them are so fatally compromised by it as are the Tories. All the stuff I 'get', even many Tory voters outside of the Home Counties and outside of the prosperous (and shrinking) economic sphere of neoliberalism get it. Some have bailed out to UKIP, some elsewhere. That's why the Labour party needs to grasp this opportunity to forge a federal UK state, to tell the Chicago school to go and fuck themselves, to do the sort of stuff we've talked about here endlessly (and which my council is now heading towards, I'm chuffed to say) and to ensure that even if there's a 'no' vote on Thursday, we never, ever, have again in the UK (or rUK) this sense of disenfranchisement.
For that, I thank the switched on Scots. They've shown that big questions demand that we all participate. Long may that resonate, on both sides of the border and in every country of the UK.
<dismounts soapbox>
) journalists are talking about the level of intimidation they are seeing on the campaign trail and that's got to be swaying a few of the undecideds. It's certainly not the image Yes want to portray. And for balance sake I'm sure there's some intimidation going on from No supporters towards Yes supporters but I haven't seen it/heard about it so can't comment on it other than to say that those people are just as bad.
