Tuesday 16th September 2014

Post by **refitman** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 7:26 am

Morning. Labour lead at 4 points on Yougov:

Latest YouGov / The Sun results 15th Sept -

Con 31%, (-1)
Lab 35%, (no change)
LD 7%, (no change)
UKIP 15%; (no change)

APP -26 (-2)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 7:31 am

Morning!

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2014 ... nsibility/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

so-it-wasnt-labour-after-all-according-to-the-office-for-budget-responsibility

a good post from Richard Murphy.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 7:42 am

If you have 10 minutes to spare, read this, explains a lot about the mind-set within the ''Yes'' brigade, not everyone obviously, but there are recognisable traits that we have all seen in this campaign.

http://wakeupscotland.wordpress.com/201 ... ged-to-no/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Morning by the way..

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 7:43 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning!

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2014 ... nsibility/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

so-it-wasnt-labour-after-all-according-to-the-office-for-budget-responsibility

a good post from Richard Murphy.

I was just about to post that.

Even the OBR doesn't agree with the official Government narrative. That quote should come in handy in the election campaign.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 7:54 am

Cardiff, apparently is the best city in the country to live in. Right that's it.. Freeedom for Wales.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local ... st-7758390" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 8:20 am

Morning all.

Have notice we have two new members but they seem to be Google Bots and Spiders ?
Is that good or bad ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googlebot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 8:22 am

Morning.

"Greenest Government ever?-"

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... rd-report/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 8:30 am

letsskiptotheleft wrote:Cardiff, apparently is the best city in the country to live in. Right that's it.. Freeedom for Wales.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local ... st-7758390" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I do find Cardiff very pleasant I have to say. I like small capital cities

For example Dublin and Edinburgh are still great cities, but have lost a certain charm for me as they've grown bigger.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 8:32 am

P.S. Haven't spent enough time in Belfast to comment.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 8:33 am

letsskiptotheleft wrote:Cardiff, apparently is the best city in the country to live in. Right that's it.. Freeedom for Wales.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local ... st-7758390" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Morning letsskip. Wales has the best of several if not many things IMO.

I think we're still suffering re the economic recovery (what economic recovery) though. I'm sure I heard a report on the BBC Wales news a couple of days back that consumer spending in Wales has fallen sharply and by more than anywhere else in the UK ... but I haven't been able to find a news item online to back up my powers of hearing.

That walesonline edition is also carrying a piece about very high shop vacancy rates in Wales. Not surprising if what I heard is true. And I guess we're about to have our share of empty Phone4U premises on top of that.

I was chatting to a client who is a property developer the other day (actually a very nice and ethical bloke) about the local housing market. None of our neighbours have been able to sell their properties - despite them being very nice places and not over priced. He told me that estate agents tell him that only properties under £150,000 are selling (if they're decent) and usually for well under the asking price. The others are sitting there unsold ... simply no buyers for them.

I think Dave and Osborne are going to find it very hard to bang on about their wonderful economic recovery in the coming months ... it's only touching a very chosen and charmed few at present.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 8:42 am

Retweeted by Thomas Hemingford
The Independent ‏@Independent 28m
Government guilty of overcharging for passports, report says http://ind.pn/1uESGsk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **refitman** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 8:43 am

yahyah wrote:Morning all.

Have notice we have two new members but they seem to be Google Bots and Spiders ?
Is that good or bad ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googlebot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hi yahah. Bots & spiders are okay. They index the site so it appears in search engines and stuff.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 8:49 am

Flow of money to English banks from Scotland 'raises eyebrows' in Cumbria
Cumbria Chamber of Commerce CEO says significant numbers of firms are moving funds to banks with headquarters in England
http://www.theguardian.com/global/2014/ ... ks-cumbria

Some interesting comments BTL re impact being noticed re commercial premises, banking etc. My guess is a YES prompt may well prompt a big escalation of money being shifted out of Scottish banks - unless they try to freeze accounts for a while ... that's a bad thought.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 8:50 am

RR2, what you say is what we see here in Ceredigion too.

More and more empty shops, less availability of products so you are forced to use the internet or travel miles. House prices still well below the financial crash level if selling.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 8:51 am

refitman wrote:
yahyah wrote:Morning all.

Have notice we have two new members but they seem to be Google Bots and Spiders ?
Is that good or bad ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googlebot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hi yahah. Bots & spiders are okay. They index the site so it appears in search engines and stuff.

Thanks Dan, just twitchy after our recent Russian lingerie spammer.

& belated birthday wishes for yesterday.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 9:07 am

On Wales and what is lovely about rural life and Mr Riots bewilderment ...

Mr Riots has just returned from driving down our track to drop the rubbish at the side of the road and pick up yesterday's post from our mailbox.

He came in holding a handwritten envelope saying we've got a letter to someone who doesn't live here ... I think it's for a 'G Tenby' - never heard of them, have you?

I looked at it and said. It's addressed to 'Y Teulu' - it means 'The Family'. We opened it and it was a handwritten invite to a local produce fair in the village hall. That's how they do a lot of things round here.

And with that - I'm off to work - weeding and clearing and beautifying gardens. See you later.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 9:18 am

This is good. Sorry if it's already been posted.

http://vis.oobrien.com/indyref/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Shows the likely times of the Referendum results in various areas linked to the likely vote outcome in those areas.

So, 2.00 am predicted results for East Lothian (tending slightly to No) and North Lanarkshire (tending slightly to Yes) look worth staying up for.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 9:22 am

And, as someone else pointed out, 5.00 am for Glasgow which these guys have as too close to call. With 11.5% of the electorate, it's the probable defining moment.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 9:32 am

Is the Guardian trying to lose as many readers as possible ?

Using my lap top I clicked on this article - usual late period John Harris twollop probably, and get a horrible format.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 10:03 am

yahyah wrote:Is the Guardian trying to lose as many readers as possible ?

Using my lap top I clicked on this article - usual late period John Harris twollop probably, and get a horrible format.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...and music? that's mucked up my R5 I have on. (it's the beta site by the way)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 10:13 am

Looks like the Guardian are as sensitive about comments about their beta thingy as the Nats are about questions about currency union. My post's been deleted.

Have a good day everyone.

&

to OhSo on losing Spike.

Post by **refitman** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 10:20 am

yahyah wrote:Looks like the Guardian are as sensitive about comments about their beta thingy as the Nats are about questions about currency union. My post's been deleted.

Have a good day everyone.

& to OhSo on losing Spike.

Your comment's still there. Looks like there are more comments about the design than about the video itself. (The Beta truly is hideous and forcing people to use it, rather than switch back and forth is not best practise!)

JackPranker · Post by **JackPranker** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 10:40 am

Guardian Beta is vile. No top down reorganisation of the Comments section!

Post by **adam** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 10:41 am

Mike Smithson says there are five indyref polls due tomorrow. Looks like it's good news for everybody.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 10:48 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:Cardiff, apparently is the best city in the country to live in. Right that's it.. Freeedom for Wales.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local ... st-7758390" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Morning letsskip. Wales has the best of several if not many things IMO.

I think we're still suffering re the economic recovery (what economic recovery) though. I'm sure I heard a report on the BBC Wales news a couple of days back that consumer spending in Wales has fallen sharply and by more than anywhere else in the UK ... but I haven't been able to find a news item online to back up my powers of hearing.

That walesonline edition is also carrying a piece about very high shop vacancy rates in Wales. Not surprising if what I heard is true. And I guess we're about to have our share of empty Phone4U premises on top of that.

I was chatting to a client who is a property developer the other day (actually a very nice and ethical bloke) about the local housing market. None of our neighbours have been able to sell their properties - despite them being very nice places and not over priced. He told me that estate agents tell him that only properties under £150,000 are selling (if they're decent) and usually for well under the asking price. The others are sitting there unsold ... simply no buyers for them.

I think Dave and Osborne are going to find it very hard to bang on about their wonderful economic recovery in the coming months ... it's only touching a very chosen and charmed few at present.

Agree yahyah, I haven't seen much economic recovery round these parts either, I doubt other regions have either. Spent a 4 days travelling around mid Wales last month with a friend, started in Brecon, not far from me, furthest got was Montgomery, Rhayader, Llandrindod Wells, Hay on Wye, with the exception of Hay property prices were surprisingly low.. Not I must stress that I want an economy based on house prices..

Paul, Cardiff is a cracking little city, try not to go to Newport though, you'll come away feeling depressed.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 10:50 am

adam wrote:Mike Smithson says there are five indyref polls due tomorrow. Looks like it's good news for everybody.

Something for everyone to cling onto then?

Discussion somewhere this morning about polls being banned two weeks before elections, I can see a certain logic there.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 10:50 am

Oh...

Rotherham PCC Shaun Wright resigns following abuse scandal. More details to follow…

What took him so long I wonder?

Unless there's something coming out that we haven't yet heard about.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 10:52 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Oh...

Rotherham PCC Shaun Wright resigns following abuse scandal. More details to follow…

What took him so long I wonder?

Unless there's something coming out that we haven't yet heard about.

Good, bad, another police commissioner poll coming up, such joy.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 10:56 am

''Yes'' voters account for 88% of comment on social media, the modern day equivalent of carpet bombing.

Can't say I am surprised by that stat.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 11:00 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Oh...

Rotherham PCC Shaun Wright resigns following abuse scandal. More details to follow…

What took him so long I wonder?

Unless there's something coming out that we haven't yet heard about.

Cleaning up his desk ?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 11:03 am

Good morning,

I was overtaken by events yesterday, and didn't say goodnight.

@refitman

Happy birthday for yesterday! Sorry I missed it.

@ohsocynical

I hope you're ok. (I've just read of your news regarding Spike.)

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 11:14 am

letsskiptotheleft wrote:''Yes'' voters account for 88% of comment on social media, the modern day equivalent of carpet bombing.

Can't say I am surprised by that stat.

Ah but the 'no' campaign have 11 Second World War heroes, six former heads of the army in Scotland and 15 other retired generals against the 'yes' campaign's 18 Scottish veterans (including 102-year-old Desert Rat Jimmy Sinclair), a former Royal Marine SNP minister, an ex-Royal Navy intelligence officer and a retired Lieutenant Colonel.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3542707

JackPranker · Post by **JackPranker** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 11:17 am

letsskiptotheleft wrote:''Yes'' voters account for 88% of comment on social media, the modern day equivalent of carpet bombing.

Can't say I am surprised by that stat.

I can't think of another political movement outside of the middle east where the online campaign has been so one sided.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 11:25 am

JackPranker wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:''Yes'' voters account for 88% of comment on social media, the modern day equivalent of carpet bombing.

Can't say I am surprised by that stat.
I can't think of another political movement outside of the middle east where the online campaign has been so one sided.

Climate change comes pretty close! Speaking of which, the Naomi Klein book This Changes Everything ISBN: 9781846145056 is out. The Shock Doctrine set a pretty high bar to reach!

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 11:33 am

Gordon giving a barn stormer on the news at the moment!!

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 11:36 am

There is no bigger beast in British politics, know I am biased but he's ripping the SNP to bits here, exposing their lies and twisting of the truth.

JackPranker · Post by **JackPranker** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 11:53 am

letsskiptotheleft wrote:There is no bigger beast in British politics, know I am biased but he's ripping the SNP to bits here, exposing their lies and twisting of the truth.

Then it's a shame that he is only speaking to campaigners and not voters. How is he expecting to change "yes" voters minds?

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 11:54 am

JackPranker wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:''Yes'' voters account for 88% of comment on social media, the modern day equivalent of carpet bombing.

Can't say I am surprised by that stat.
I can't think of another political movement outside of the middle east where the online campaign has been so one sided.

Anybody daring to voice a contrary opinion has been relentlessly mobbed, not pleasant as I found out myself. As Ephe has said on the Graun

Although I'm pro-Yes (and no, I'm not going to go on about it - I've said all I have to say) I'm not impressed with the zealots on either side.

Would that more were like her, sadly many seem to have fallen in step with the zealots.

Eric_WLothian wrote:Ah but the 'no' campaign have 11 Second World War heroes, six former heads of the army in Scotland and 15 other retired generals against the 'yes' campaign's 18 Scottish veterans (including 102-year-old Desert Rat Jimmy Sinclair), a former Royal Marine SNP minister, an ex-Royal Navy intelligence officer and a retired Lieutenant Colonel.

The Yes campaigns big weapon has been the number of A-listers - Cummings, Cox, Welsh et al - who will always attract attention and have definitely fallen into the 'zealot' camp; but then, they don't have to live with the consequences, do they?

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 11:58 am

JackPranker wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:There is no bigger beast in British politics, know I am biased but he's ripping the SNP to bits here, exposing their lies and twisting of the truth.
Then it's a shame that he is only speaking to campaigners and not voters. How is he expecting to change "yes" voters minds?

I agree with you there, don't know what the reason for him not addressing crowds is, security, as a former PM, possibly but doubtful..

At least Blair hasn't got involved, grateful for small mercies eh?!

JackPranker · Post by **JackPranker** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 12:16 pm

letsskiptotheleft wrote:
JackPranker wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:There is no bigger beast in British politics, know I am biased but he's ripping the SNP to bits here, exposing their lies and twisting of the truth.
Then it's a shame that he is only speaking to campaigners and not voters. How is he expecting to change "yes" voters minds?
I agree with you there, don't know what the reason for him not addressing crowds is, security, as a former PM, possibly but doubtful..

At least Blair hasn't got involved, grateful for small mercies eh?!

I expect the "no" campaign are not suicidal. It's bad enough they have Cameron and Clegg on their side!

It's been a problem for BT from the start. The heavy hitters have only recently started to engage, but when they do they engage with invited groups rather than soap-boxing. Jim Murphy did his 100 days, but from the press generated it would appear that even he travelled with his audience on the same bus!

Compare that to the "Yes" grass-roots campaigning, it has seemed to me that one side looks engaged and the other side looks aloof - a continuation of an attitude that has, in part, brought this situation about. For those hoping for a "no" vote, they may be relying on the fear of the unknown being a greater pull than the hope of change.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 12:17 pm

Nicola Sturgeon is arguing that English, N Irish, and Welsh (in purely alphabetical order!) businesses would incur vast costs relating to currency changes when trading with Scotland in the (likely) event of there being no currency union agreement. Does anyone know the ins and outs of such a claim, please? (Especially if Scotland, as Alex Salmond reckons, is going to waltz effortlessly into membership of the EU.)

And yes - Gordon Brown did well. His speech is being described as "passionate" - which it was. But not in a faux trembly lip manner. Barn-storming (as letsskiptotheleft said). I suppose the "No" campaign is relying on his speech being reported in the media (re the "preaching to the choir" observations).

Edited

Capital "N" for "No"

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 12:27 pm

JackPranker wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:There is no bigger beast in British politics, know I am biased but he's ripping the SNP to bits here, exposing their lies and twisting of the truth.
Then it's a shame that he is only speaking to campaigners and not voters. How is he expecting to change "yes" voters minds?

Maybe changing the minds of those committed to "yes" is not the primary aim? Its more reaching out to waverers, and mobilising the "no" camp.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 12:32 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
JackPranker wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:There is no bigger beast in British politics, know I am biased but he's ripping the SNP to bits here, exposing their lies and twisting of the truth.
Then it's a shame that he is only speaking to campaigners and not voters. How is he expecting to change "yes" voters minds?
Maybe changing the minds of those committed to "yes" is not the primary aim? Its more reaching out to waverers, and mobilising the "no" camp.

Yes - I think you're right in that that's the main aim, actually. Not many fervent "Yes" voters are likely to be swayed, especially at this stage.

JackPranker · Post by **JackPranker** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 12:34 pm

I admired Brown in the past for being an honest man. Attributing "Kim Yong Il" as an advisor to Salmond is eroding that rapidly. If both sides are serious about keeping this cordial then rhetoric should be being condemned by campaign leaders, not perpetuated.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 12:56 pm

JackPranker wrote:I admired Brown in the past for being an honest man. Attributing "Kim Yong Il" as an advisor to Salmond is eroding that rapidly. If both sides are serious about keeping this cordial then rhetoric should be being condemned by campaign leaders, not perpetuated.

He was really just pointing out the breadth of Salmonds political backers.

Nothing compares to the spectacular cascade of lies the Yes campaign have told. The NHS one is bad enough, but the currency lie and the EU membership lie are utterly irresponsible.

You have to be honest about the risks.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 1:01 pm

JackPranker wrote:I admired Brown in the past for being an honest man. Attributing "Kim Yong Il" as an advisor to Salmond is eroding that rapidly. If both sides are serious about keeping this cordial then rhetoric should be being condemned by campaign leaders, not perpetuated.

I think that it's probably a bit late for that now.
If there is a yes vote I'm expecting an awful lot of fury from Mr Salmond et al when it finally sinks in that there really isn't going to be a currency union.
And following a no the yessrs won't be going quietly will they?
Looking forward to it tbh but hoping still for a Yes.Please.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 1:05 pm

Back a few months ago when the furore over the Trojan Horse things was going on there was this exchange in the HoL:

Asked by Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the statement by Lord Nash on 9 June (HL Deb, col 167), whether the investigation by the Permanent Secretary of the Department for Education into the handling of the Trojan horse allegations in 2010 will be made public; and what is the timeframe for the report.[HL282]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash) (Con): The Secretary of State has asked the Permanent Secretary to conduct an internal review into how the Department for Education dealt with warnings in Birmingham since the formation of this Government in 2010, and before. The Permanent Secretary intends to present his findings to the Secretary of State later in the summer.

At the time I remember thinking "that's the last we'll ever hear of this".

IIRC the minister who was in that meeting with a Birmingham HT was one Lord Hill...now our EU commissioner. Wouldn't look very good if it came out that they'd been warned, knew what might be going on and even then did nothing.

We'll see. It might slip out in a written answer which won't get much notice.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 1:13 pm

JackPranker wrote:I admired Brown in the past for being an honest man. Attributing "Kim Yong Il" as an advisor to Salmond is eroding that rapidly. If both sides are serious about keeping this cordial then rhetoric should be being condemned by campaign leaders, not perpetuated.

I saw a snide comment from Salmond the other day about Labour, so it isn't like he is working that hard to be cordial.

But glad we agree on the Guardian Beta being crap, and whatever happens on Thursday I sincerely wish for Mrs Pranker, yourself & baby [or rather toddler] Pranker to thrive in the country you love.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 1:15 pm

JackPranker wrote:I admired Brown in the past for being an honest man. Attributing "Kim Yong Il" as an advisor to Salmond is eroding that rapidly. If both sides are serious about keeping this cordial then rhetoric should be being condemned by campaign leaders, not perpetuated.

Haven't heard the speech, but I assume that was a joke? And tbf GB's use of humour has always been somewhat clunky

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 1:25 pm

I have to say, whichever side is doing it, heckling and deliberate attempts to stop people making speeches or addressing rallies doesn't feel good, or democratic.

Is that really 'vibrant democracy' at work ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... rally.html