Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th June 2015

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 8:12 am

As everything the Tories get their hands on, it isn't a surprise that problems occur for those on low income and the elderly.

Sorry, the link is to the Mail:

''Thousands miss out in marriage tax fiasco: Elderly and low-income families unable to claim £200 perk after ANOTHER HMRC computer disaster
HMRC's problem centres on a £25million computer system called Verify
Thousands of couples missed out on marriage tax break because of fiasco
Labour MP Margaret Hodge last night accused HMRC of 'cutting corners'
One of the PM's flagship policies, the tax break should save couples £212''

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3cGNZbSbi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I mentioned here, earlier in the year, that my husband had applied for it, we received a reply from HMRC saying we were registered would hear more later on how to formally apply. At the time I pondered that an online only application system would mean problems for some people, and was right.

Other news items online suggest a photocard driving licence or valid passport will be needed to actually claim the allowance, if true then people who possess neither may have problems.

The Mail says:

''To make matters worse an HMRC helpline has offered no support. The agency’s latest computer shambles has seen:
Claimants being asked to provide identity documents they don’t have;
Lengthy delays in handling successful cases;
A dedicated helpline being delayed until September;
Official emails that resemble those sent by fraudsters.''

Maybe those people who voted Tory who have applied will get a sense of what it must be like to be applying for social security benefits.
This allowance is only worth about £200, not the income to for day to day living that many have been deprived of.

Edited to try and tidy up those commas. Por Favor must despair !

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 8:27 am

Morning all.

@yahyah. Radio 4 Moneybox or You and Yours did an item on this marriage tax allowance a few weeks back. It was clear then that HMRC were going to make it as difficult as possible for people to claim. At the time there was no facility at all for anyone who wasn't able to apply online. And with what I hear of their phone answering performance I'm dreading if and when I have to next ring them up about anything.

Mr Riots has just had to renew his driving licence. They had a mistake on their computer - one letter in our address - which meant he simply couldn't do anything online as it kept rejecting the correct version. No facility for sorting out something like this simply. It's taken over 4 months going backwards and forwards in the post - they take so long to reply to anything. Mr Riots has technically been driving illegally meanwhile.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 8:29 am

Alberto Nardelli ‏@AlbertoNardelli 39m39 minutes ago
Now claims of arms deal for World Cup votes http://www.theguardian.com/football/201 ... land-henry" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … - can the FIFA story get any worse?

I hope not. Sheesh.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 8:40 am

Who would have guessed it ?

''The chief executive of a private equity firm that owns one of the staffing agencies accused by the government of “ripping off” the NHS is a major donor to the Conservative Party, The Independent can reveal.''

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 01423.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 8:51 am

I know it's the Mail - and they can hardly pontificate about hate campaigns on politicians. But ... this is very upsetting. Read to the end. I couldn't have put up with what is described without being affected. This isn't the way to get and keep the right kind of people in politics.

'Hounded' by SNP hate mob: How, in the weeks before his lonely death, Charles Kennedy endured a vile campaign of bullying and abuse by separatist fanatics that deeply wounded an already vulnerable man
Kennedy was the victim of extensive personal attacks from SNP loyalist
Waged on cyberspace and on the streets of his Highland constituency
On social networking sites, trolls called him a traitor and a drunkard
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... e-man.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 8:59 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:I know it's the Mail - and they can hardly pontificate about hate campaigns on politicians. But ... this is very upsetting. Read to the end. I couldn't have put up with what is described without being affected. This isn't the way to get and keep the right kind of people in politics.

'Hounded' by SNP hate mob: How, in the weeks before his lonely death, Charles Kennedy endured a vile campaign of bullying and abuse by separatist fanatics that deeply wounded an already vulnerable man
Kennedy was the victim of extensive personal attacks from SNP loyalist
Waged on cyberspace and on the streets of his Highland constituency
On social networking sites, trolls called him a traitor and a drunkard
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... e-man.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kennedy's father died three weeks before the election.
Have seen it alleged elsewhere that cybernats taunted him with 'where's Charlie ?' and jokes about his alcoholism and 'laziness' when he, understandably, had some time out from campaigning to deal with his father's death.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 9:03 am

Morning all.

Off to the library soon so won't be around but I notice that the DT is saying that pension companies aren't playing ball with Osborne's ideas...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers ... rules.html

The majority of pension providers are failing to offer all the freedoms promised by the Government, leaving millions of savers facing rip-off charges and blocks on withdrawals.

An investigation by The Telegraph found most over-55s were unlikely to be able to access their retirement funds as easily and cheaply as George Osborne intended.

On Thursday this newspaper disclosed that one of Britain's biggest pension firms, Friends Life, was refusing to allow savers to use their pensions like bank accounts.

Now it has emerged that four other large firms - including the Government's own pensions provider - are also refusing to allow retired savers to dip into their funds as often as they need.

Love it when a plan works out so well...

Interesting that the story made the front pages of the printed copy but is tucked away as a one-liner in Other News online - different demographics I guess.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 9:10 am

Morning folks,

"The Tories have no mandate inNewcastle upon Tyne"
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor ... ine_Story2

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 9:17 am

yahyah wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:I know it's the Mail - and they can hardly pontificate about hate campaigns on politicians. But ... this is very upsetting. Read to the end. I couldn't have put up with what is described without being affected. This isn't the way to get and keep the right kind of people in politics.

'Hounded' by SNP hate mob: How, in the weeks before his lonely death, Charles Kennedy endured a vile campaign of bullying and abuse by separatist fanatics that deeply wounded an already vulnerable man
Kennedy was the victim of extensive personal attacks from SNP loyalist
Waged on cyberspace and on the streets of his Highland constituency
On social networking sites, trolls called him a traitor and a drunkard
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... e-man.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kennedy's father died three weeks before the election.
Have seen it alleged elsewhere that cybernats taunted him with 'where's Charlie ?' and jokes about his alcoholism and 'laziness' when he, understandably, had some time out from campaigning to deal with his father's death.

That particular campaign - the 'where's Charlie?' one - is detailed in the article yahyah. At the time it started both his parents were in hospital - different hospitals though - which must have been very difficult for him. Plus - I hadn't realised his sibling is disabled and lived with his dad. Lots of people to care about and for and a deeply stressful time.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 9:26 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
yahyah wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:I know it's the Mail - and they can hardly pontificate about hate campaigns on politicians. But ... this is very upsetting. Read to the end. I couldn't have put up with what is described without being affected. This isn't the way to get and keep the right kind of people in politics.

Kennedy's father died three weeks before the election.
Have seen it alleged elsewhere that cybernats taunted him with 'where's Charlie ?' and jokes about his alcoholism and 'laziness' when he, understandably, had some time out from campaigning to deal with his father's death.
That particular campaign - the 'where's Charlie?' one - is detailed in the article yahyah. At the time it started both his parents were in hospital - different hospitals though - which must have been very difficult for him. Plus - I hadn't realised his sibling is disabled and lived with his dad. Lots of people to care about and for and a deeply stressful time.

Thanks Rebecca. I mentioned the campaign being quoted elsewhere in a sense to show that it wasn't just the Mail who spotted it.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 9:43 am

Candidates for the Labour leadership will be taking part in a debate at the Fabian Society's Summer Conference, today, in London. Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper, Mary Creagh, and Liz Kendall, will all be there – and an invitation has been issued to Jeremy Corbyn, since his declaration. Full programme for the day:
http://www.fabians.org.uk/events/fabian ... ence-2015/

As far as I can see, it isn't being broadcast but they say you can follow the debates and discussions online using #fabsummer.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 10:38 am

yahyah wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
yahyah wrote:
Kennedy's father died three weeks before the election.
Have seen it alleged elsewhere that cybernats taunted him with 'where's Charlie ?' and jokes about his alcoholism and 'laziness' when he, understandably, had some time out from campaigning to deal with his father's death.
That particular campaign - the 'where's Charlie?' one - is detailed in the article yahyah. At the time it started both his parents were in hospital - different hospitals though - which must have been very difficult for him. Plus - I hadn't realised his sibling is disabled and lived with his dad. Lots of people to care about and for and a deeply stressful time.

Thanks Rebecca. I mentioned the campaign being quoted elsewhere in a sense to show that it wasn't just the Mail who spotted it.

And, sadly, the SNP supporters continue to defend the indefensible btl in the Scotsman. I won't include a link.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 10:45 am

LadyCentauria wrote:Candidates for the Labour leadership will be taking part in a debate at the Fabian Society's Summer Conference, today, in London. Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper, Mary Creagh, and Liz Kendall, will all be there – and an invitation has been issued to Jeremy Corbyn, since his declaration. Full programme for the day:
http://www.fabians.org.uk/events/fabian ... ence-2015/

As far as I can see, it isn't being broadcast but they say you can follow the debates and discussions online using #fabsummer.

Corbyn has more MPs backing him than Creagh already - there must be a decent chance he will get on the ballot.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 10:46 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:I know it's the Mail - and they can hardly pontificate about hate campaigns on politicians. But ... this is very upsetting. Read to the end. I couldn't have put up with what is described without being affected. This isn't the way to get and keep the right kind of people in politics.

'Hounded' by SNP hate mob: How, in the weeks before his lonely death, Charles Kennedy endured a vile campaign of bullying and abuse by separatist fanatics that deeply wounded an already vulnerable man
Kennedy was the victim of extensive personal attacks from SNP loyalist
Waged on cyberspace and on the streets of his Highland constituency
On social networking sites, trolls called him a traitor and a drunkard
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... e-man.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Awful. Just awful

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 11:31 am

Don't listen to Week in Westminster if you value your radio. Danczuk slagging off Burnham and bigging up Kendall. Then an 'Isn't Boris fab' session. Window. Radio. Through.
A windy good morning to all.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 11:46 am

ohsocynical wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:I know it's the Mail - and they can hardly pontificate about hate campaigns on politicians. But ... this is very upsetting. Read to the end. I couldn't have put up with what is described without being affected. This isn't the way to get and keep the right kind of people in politics.

'Hounded' by SNP hate mob: How, in the weeks before his lonely death, Charles Kennedy endured a vile campaign of bullying and abuse by separatist fanatics that deeply wounded an already vulnerable man
Kennedy was the victim of extensive personal attacks from SNP loyalist
Waged on cyberspace and on the streets of his Highland constituency
On social networking sites, trolls called him a traitor and a drunkard
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... e-man.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Awful. Just awful

Ian Blackford has behaved in a particularly despicable way. Also, I didn't realise until reading that article that he was previously a senior executive at Deutsche Bank. So much for the SNP supposedly being more leftie than thou.

Things went nuclear, however, on April 15, after Kennedy had circulated campaign literature which described his SNP opponent Ian Blackford, a former senior executive at Deutsche Bank, as a ‘well-funded banker from Edinburgh’.

Angered by the jibe, Blackford took the extraordinary step of marching into Kennedy’s campaign office in Fort William that morning, accompanied by four supporters. He then demanded that Mr Kennedy withdraw the allegation, which Blackford regarded as inaccurate.

‘He was angry, aggressive and unpleasant, wagging his finger at us,’ said Lib Dem activist Candy Piercy, who witnessed the incident. A party spokesman, who insisted that Blackford was, indeed, a banker from Edinburgh, accused him of ‘bullying and intimidatory behaviour’.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 11:48 am

Good morfternoon.

Andy Burnham to call for moratorium on fracking

Labour leadership favourite wants drilling for shale gas to stop until stronger scientific evidence of safety can be provided (Guardian)

He's starting to endear himself to me a little.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... n-fracking

Apologies if this is a repeat.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 11:48 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote:Candidates for the Labour leadership will be taking part in a debate at the Fabian Society's Summer Conference, today, in London. Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper, Mary Creagh, and Liz Kendall, will all be there – and an invitation has been issued to Jeremy Corbyn, since his declaration. Full programme for the day:
http://www.fabians.org.uk/events/fabian ... ence-2015/

As far as I can see, it isn't being broadcast but they say you can follow the debates and discussions online using #fabsummer.
Corbyn has more MPs backing him than Creagh already - there must be a decent chance he will get on the ballot.

At least a chance. I saw that, according to a link someone posted here the other day, some MPs who were backing Burnham switched their support to Corbyn. It made me wonder whether they discussed it with Burnham first – or he with them – and then lent their support in the interest of widening the contest?

Re Charles Kennedy, what awful pressure he was under during the election and since. Just shows that none of us can know what others are going through.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 12:05 pm

I used to read a blog by Tom Harris, who until May was Labour MP for Glasgow South (he stopped blogging a few years ago, partly due to lack of time but also because of the amount of trolling he attracted - he used to give as good as he got but eventually got too sick of it).

Harris often recounted the terrible behaviour of SNP supporters, a mob mentality which would see them spitting and shouting at Labour candidates (this is pre 2010), and also the antics of the Cybernats. Harris described their way of pretending to be whatever they thought would push the buttons of whatever area they were campaigning - so in Labour areas they'd pretend to be left wing, whereas in rural areas they'd effortlessly morph into right wingers.

Since then, they've become even worse.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 12:12 pm

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Andy Burnham to call for moratorium on fracking

Labour leadership favourite wants drilling for shale gas to stop until stronger scientific evidence of safety can be provided (Guardian)
He's starting to endear himself to me a little.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... n-fracking

Apologies if this is a repeat.

Good for him.

It's sad that trendy lefties (Ms Jack Monroe for example) decided to support the Greens and not Labour before the election. Labour could actually have implemented Green policies, unlike the bunch of dangerous ignoramuses and sociopaths we're now stuck with ...

And of course Sturgeon was telling English voters to vote Green. And she wanted to 'lock the Tories out of Downing Street'?

Yeah right.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 12:19 pm

The UK has had a judgement go against it in the Court of Justice in the European Union which is likely to be bad news for people planning to buy or to have 'energy-saving' materials and equipment installed, which means that the VaT on those goods (and the installation of them) has to be charged at 20% instead of the current 5%, in most cases:

The United Kingdom cannot apply, with respect to all housing, a reduced rate of VAT to the supply and installation of energy-saving materials, since that rate is
reserved solely to transactions relating to social housing

http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs ... 0065en.pdf

That judgement was linked to in this article, at the other place, about Balcombe's plans to go '100% Solar-powered':
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... -100-solar

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 1:20 pm

This is from yesterday and is just a reminder, in case anyone's interested. (It's not started yet.)

AndrewSparrowReplies
1d ago
Staff
8 9

I will be covering the Labour leadership hustings at the Fabian summer conference in a live blog tomorrow afternoon. The hustings start at 4pm, but the blog will launch a bit earlier. (Politics Blog, Guardian - my emphasis)

thatchersorphan · Post by **thatchersorphan** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 1:45 pm

Thanks for your post yahyah, have just read.
I may not be the 'focus' of problems but I'm not a labour supporter (though I do support some labour MP's - the 'old labour' ones), so posts that seem aimed in a generalised way at the non-labour people here kind of drag all of us in - and I was one of those posting at the time in question. O the plus side, anyone who has posted after feeling affected by the comment, and who have continued the conversation on it, have been replied to in a good way showing we can work together when we communicate.

thatchersorphan · Post by **thatchersorphan** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 2:20 pm

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor ... op-9386311" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; North East MP Tom Blenkinsop asked to help find out why Labour lost election

WelshIan · Post by **WelshIan** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 3:32 pm

thatchersorphan wrote:http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor ... op-9386311 North East MP Tom Blenkinsop asked to help find out why Labour lost election

Can't help feeling that the leadership election campaign should wait until after the report. Labour may end up with a leader wanting to do the exact opposite of what will gain them the most voters/MPs.
They should have all agreed to wait until they knew exactly why they lost before starting to elect a new leader. Instead they all have their own theory, and think Labour need to go in different directions.

Does anyone think Ed Miliband would return to the front bench under a new leader? I wonder where he would be most effective - I wouldn't mind seeing him go up against IDS.

Good afternoon everyone - off back out now to enjoy the sun!

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 3:47 pm

WelshIan wrote:
thatchersorphan wrote:http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor ... op-9386311 North East MP Tom Blenkinsop asked to help find out why Labour lost election
Can't help feeling that the leadership election campaign should wait until after the report. Labour may end up with a leader wanting to do the exact opposite of what will gain them the most voters/MPs.
They should have all agreed to wait until they knew exactly why they lost before starting to elect a new leader. Instead they all have their own theory, and think Labour need to go in different directions.

Does anyone think Ed Miliband would return to the front bench under a new leader? I wonder where he would be most effective - I wouldn't mind seeing him go up against IDS.

Good afternoon everyone - off back out now to enjoy the sun!

I think he probably would be willing to serve under a new leader in whichever capacity he was asked to do, if he's the man most of us think he is. I'd like to see him taking IDS apart but would it be quite fair to put him up in a battle of wits against an un-armed opponent? Sod fairness. Yes!

Enjoy the sunshine

Post by **refitman** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 4:10 pm

PorFavor wrote:This is from yesterday and is just a reminder, in case anyone's interested. (It's not started yet.)

AndrewSparrowReplies
1d ago
Staff
8 9

I will be covering the Labour leadership hustings at the Fabian summer conference in a live blog tomorrow afternoon. The hustings start at 4pm, but the blog will launch a bit earlier. (Politics Blog, Guardian - my emphasis)

The live blog is here: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blo ... t-53379092" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 4:46 pm

refitman wrote:
PorFavor wrote:This is from yesterday and is just a reminder, in case anyone's interested. (It's not started yet.)

AndrewSparrowReplies
1d ago
Staff
8 9

I will be covering the Labour leadership hustings at the Fabian summer conference in a live blog tomorrow afternoon. The hustings start at 4pm, but the blog will launch a bit earlier. (Politics Blog, Guardian - my emphasis)
The live blog is here: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blo ... t-53379092" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I really wish they were broadcasting from the Fabian Summer Conference so that we could hear what people were actually saying - and the tone in which they're saying it - rather than the précis-ed version which so often misses off a qualification... If Progress could manage that, why can't the Fabians?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 5:53 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:
refitman wrote:
PorFavor wrote:This is from yesterday and is just a reminder, in case anyone's interested. (It's not started yet.)

The live blog is here: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blo ... t-53379092" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I really wish they were broadcasting from the Fabian Summer Conference so that we could hear what people were actually saying - and the tone in which they're saying it - rather than the précis-ed version which so often misses off a qualification... If Progress could manage that, why can't the Fabians?

Yes - it's hard to get a proper sense of the discussion from these snippets. They all end up sounding the same - except Corbyn. But perhaps that is truly it - they all sound the same.

Corbyn's views on the EU are interesting. I was surprised by Mr Riots this morning. We were talking about the EU referendum on our way home - disgusted and worried to be at the mercy of Cameron deciding what he wants to negotiate for (don't the country get any say in advance of his negotiations?) as it will most likely focus on no participation in any financial transaction taxes or anything else that could hurt his City / Finance pals and weakening of workers rights, human rights etc. Not things that would make me want to stay in the EU tbh - worst of all worlds.

Mr Riots then said he might be tempted to vote to come out of the EU because of their disgraceful treatment of Greece. He adores Greece having lived there for a while in his yoof. Corbyn seems to think the same about the shabby, bullying treatment of Greece.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 5:57 pm

Kendall doing herself no favours (from AS):

Kendall says socialism is not dead, but it needs to change. We need to be as passionate about wealth creation as about inequality, she says.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 6:09 pm

refitman wrote:Kendall doing herself no favours (from AS):
Kendall says socialism is not dead, but it needs to change. We need to be as passionate about wealth creation as about inequality, she says.

You've left off the bit about there being some quiet booing in parts of the audience after she said it!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 6:24 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote:
refitman wrote: The live blog is here: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blo ... t-53379092" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I really wish they were broadcasting from the Fabian Summer Conference so that we could hear what people were actually saying - and the tone in which they're saying it - rather than the précis-ed version which so often misses off a qualification... If Progress could manage that, why can't the Fabians?
Yes - it's hard to get a proper sense of the discussion from these snippets. They all end up sounding the same - except Corbyn. But perhaps that is truly it - they all sound the same.

Corbyn's views on the EU are interesting. I was surprised by Mr Riots this morning. We were talking about the EU referendum on our way home - disgusted and worried to be at the mercy of Cameron deciding what he wants to negotiate for (don't the country get any say in advance of his negotiations?) as it will most likely focus on no participation in any financial transaction taxes or anything else that could hurt his City / Finance pals and weakening of workers rights, human rights etc. Not things that would make me want to stay in the EU tbh - worst of all worlds.

Mr Riots then said he might be tempted to vote to come out of the EU because of their disgraceful treatment of Greece. He adores Greece having lived there for a while in his yoof. Corbyn seems to think the same about the shabby, bullying treatment of Greece.

It's very tempting to vote to come out if only to give the Scots a lesson. Not saying I will, but I shall give it serious thought.

I voted not to go into the Common Market way back when, but although I've never liked it that much have come to think we'd be worse off without it purely because of things like rights and entitlements. For sure Dave would like to get rid of things like maternity leave and so on.

Now Cameron has got back in though, I think things are going to be so desperate and just plain nasty that it's not going to make a whole lot of difference for those of us at the bottom of the heap if we're in or out.

I probably won't be around to see the worst that's going to happen so I have to think of the young, but also believe we had our chance and blew it. Suddenly the country I thought we were isn't. And I don't like it.
It was like being hit with a sledgehammer. Suddenly I am wondering if it was me. Have I been living in a nice little bubble for 71 years? If so, when did it change? What did I miss?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 6:39 pm

ohsocynical wrote: It's very tempting to vote to come out if only to give the Scots a lesson. Not saying I will, but I shall give it serious thought.

I voted not to go into the Common Market way back when, but although I've never liked it that much have come to think we'd be worse off without it purely because of things like rights and entitlements. For sure Dave would like to get rid of things like maternity leave and so on.

Now Cameron has got back in though, I think things are going to be so desperate and just plain nasty that it's not going to make a whole lot of difference for those of us at the bottom of the heap if we're in or out.

I probably won't be around to see the worst that's going to happen so I have to think of the young, but also believe we had our chance and blew it. Suddenly the country I thought we were isn't. And I don't like it.
It was like being hit with a sledgehammer. Suddenly I am wondering if it was me. Have I been living in a nice little bubble for 71 years? If so, when did it change? What did I miss?

You are not the only one to be suffering from reality checkitis, Ohso. It is very hard to understand how so many people are able to jog along either not worrying unduly about or managing to ignore the increased hardships, insecurity and sense of hopelessness that we have now ... and more on the horizon. It makes me wonder what it will take for any real dissent and change to happen.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 6:40 pm

And I also remember the Common Market was originally formed to put a stop to anymore damaging wars between the main European countries.
A sort of make trade not war solution.

I think it's grown into a monster. The original intentions buried under the interests of banks.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 6:51 pm

The woman who beat Ed Balls - Andrea Jenkyns sets out her mission for parliament
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/mai ... -1-7296354" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... She said: “What type of Conservative am I? Fiscally, economically very Conservative.

“But then on issues of animal rights I’m more to the left I think, I take animal rights quite seriously, I’m a vegetarian, I am against the badger cull.”

That commitment could well see her vote against her own party on some occasions, with one difficult conversation already taking place with the whips office.

“I’m against fox hunting. I have already told the whips this, and that I would vote against repealing the ban, in my first meeting with them. I’m more liberal on those things.

“You have to vote with your conscience. If you sit on the fence on something you are not passionate about then you look to the electorate for guidance, for what works for the constituency, but I want to sleep at night, I won’t vote for something I disagree with.”...

I grateful for these small mercies. Doesn't make up for losing a Labour MP - but at least it doesn't help Cameron get his hunting ban repeal through.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 6:59 pm

I do hate the shallowness of these so called debates. Set questions with little space for real answers with any depth. The very medium of debate is a recipe for producing bland content less answers. More and more I get the feeling that what people at the raw end of Tory policy, in or out of work just want Labour to stand up for them. You know, be outspoken about what is really happening, and honest in what they say, and to march with them and come out and actually be on the front line with them. Help create a groundswell of opposition.

On the other hand I watched a programme about cleaners this morning, on iPlayer. Was surprised at the claim that around six million people employ cleaners to do their homes. Perhaps we are a more upstairs, downstairs society than we think. It would explain a lot.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 7:01 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
The woman who beat Ed Balls - Andrea Jenkyns sets out her mission for parliament
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/mai ... -1-7296354" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... She said: “What type of Conservative am I? Fiscally, economically very Conservative.

“But then on issues of animal rights I’m more to the left I think, I take animal rights quite seriously, I’m a vegetarian, I am against the badger cull.”

That commitment could well see her vote against her own party on some occasions, with one difficult conversation already taking place with the whips office.

“I’m against fox hunting. I have already told the whips this, and that I would vote against repealing the ban, in my first meeting with them. I’m more liberal on those things.

“You have to vote with your conscience. If you sit on the fence on something you are not passionate about then you look to the electorate for guidance, for what works for the constituency, but I want to sleep at night, I won’t vote for something I disagree with.”...
I grateful for these small mercies. Doesn't make up for losing a Labour MP - but at least it doesn't help Cameron get his hunting ban repeal through.

I worry about the Whips. What they'll do to get the vote through.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 7:03 pm

I picked this up btl on a Wren-Lewis article, I like the way it's written so much, I have to share it with you.

The slightly wearying thing with all this is that we'll have to wait for failure to be manifest before the truth or evidence are allowed to interfere with this supposed impartiality. Why do you think that economists are so seldom interviewed on news and current affairs programmes? They don't want hear what you've got to say. It interferes with their narrative.

We all know what is going happen. The ailing British economic Lazarus will be praised as a kind of superman because he's no longer dead. This is the kind of meaningless twaddle sported by the BBC and the government, because the UK, unrestrained by the euro, continues to perform better than economies that have been cut off at the knees. In this relativist twilight world the man with the Zimmer frame is, of course, king. However, it doesn't stop him from being a debilitated buffoon who's inflicted many of the injuries he carries on himself.

After the next round of impoverishment takes place, Osborne, Peston, MSM, assorted city economists will have to explain (again), what is so special about Lazarus and why he always looks so peaky.

The academic consensus on the impact of austerity
http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/ ... ct-of.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Associated Krugman piece in the NYT.
Views Differ on Shape of Macroeconomics
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/0 ... &seid=auto" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 7:03 pm

seeingclearly wrote:I do hate the shallowness of these so called debates. Set questions with little space for real answers with any depth. The very medium of debate is a recipe for producing bland content less answers. More and more I get the feeling that what people at the raw end of Tory policy, in or out of work just want Labour to stand up for them. You know, be outspoken about what is really happening, and honest in what they say, and to march with them and come out and actually be on the front line with them. Help create a groundswell of opposition.

On the other hand I watched a programme about cleaners this morning, on iPlayer. Was surprised at the claim that around six million people employ cleaners to do their homes. Perhaps we are a more upstairs, downstairs society than we think. It would explain a lot.

We are. It was getting better, but has worsened again.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 7:04 pm

More people at risk of being evicted in Gloucester than anywhere else in South West
http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/peop ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... "Almost every week I go to court and deal with someone who says their problem is because they are in a zero hour's contract," said Mrs Whitworth.

"People don't know from week to week how much money is coming in and Housing benefits can take weeks and weeks to come through.

"But in the meantime people can't pay their rents which results in them getting evicted.

"There are so many people who can't afford to pay the shortfall from the Bedroom Tax."

According to Mrs Whitworth other issues affecting people's ability to pay rent is because of long periods of illness and also vulnerable clients such as drug and alcohol dependents.

However Gloucester MP Richard Graham believes this report is just a scaremongering tactic by Shelter and believes claims that thousands of people are at risk of losing their home are simply untrue.

"I just don't believe that the report is true," he said.

"To claim that people are at risk of losing their homes when banks are going through the sorts of processes to ensure people don't have their houses repossessed is just scaremongering.

"In the last five years I have not had one letter come across my desk of a constituent being evicted from their home.

Nice, eh. Perhaps he's just not considered an easily approachable chap by those constituents facing eviction. I wonder why that might be? And perhaps those facing imminent homelessness, or already evicted, aren't in the best position to be writing him letters and waiting for a reply.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 7:11 pm

seeingclearly wrote:I do hate the shallowness of these so called debates. Set questions with little space for real answers with any depth. The very medium of debate is a recipe for producing bland content less answers. More and more I get the feeling that what people at the raw end of Tory policy, in or out of work just want Labour to stand up for them. You know, be outspoken about what is really happening, and honest in what they say, and to march with them and come out and actually be on the front line with them. Help create a groundswell of opposition.

On the other hand I watched a programme about cleaners this morning, on iPlayer. Was surprised at the claim that around six million people employ cleaners to do their homes. Perhaps we are a more upstairs, downstairs society than we think. It would explain a lot.

It is so difficult to know how to even begin assessing the situation that needs to be fixed. We seem to be such a divided society and such a divided party (Labour that is).

I would like to feel that you are right in people just wanting Labour to stand up for them (I thought Ed did that pretty well most of the time) - but then I think in particular about the Scottish Labour MPs who spoke out and fought tirelessly on issues such as the bedroom tax and other punishment policies, the work of Stella Creasy on payday lenders and their exorbitant interest rates and many other examples. And it just didn't seem to register sufficiently or with enough people.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 7:40 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
refitman wrote:Kendall doing herself no favours (from AS):
Kendall says socialism is not dead, but it needs to change. We need to be as passionate about wealth creation as about inequality, she says.
You've left off the bit about there being some quiet booing in parts of the audience after she said it!

The worst thing about it is that it is tired straw-mannery (stuff that "continuity" Blairites seem to ever more specialise in)

Labour has never been *against* wealth creation. Ever.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 7:52 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:I do hate the shallowness of these so called debates. Set questions with little space for real answers with any depth. The very medium of debate is a recipe for producing bland content less answers. More and more I get the feeling that what people at the raw end of Tory policy, in or out of work just want Labour to stand up for them. You know, be outspoken about what is really happening, and honest in what they say, and to march with them and come out and actually be on the front line with them. Help create a groundswell of opposition.

On the other hand I watched a programme about cleaners this morning, on iPlayer. Was surprised at the claim that around six million people employ cleaners to do their homes. Perhaps we are a more upstairs, downstairs society than we think. It would explain a lot.

It is so difficult to know how to even begin assessing the situation that needs to be fixed. We seem to be such a divided society and such a divided party (Labour that is).

I would like to feel that you are right in people just wanting Labour to stand up for them (I thought Ed did that pretty well most of the time) - but then I think in particular about the Scottish Labour MPs who spoke out and fought tirelessly on issues such as the bedroom tax and other punishment policies, the work of Stella Creasy on payday lenders and their exorbitant interest rates and many other examples. And it just didn't seem to register sufficiently or with enough people.

It's hard to see, I have to agree, how it didn't register, if you're a politics watcher, as we all are here, but thats why I qualified it with coming out and being on the front line, the politicians who gain the most praise are people who have visibly demonstrated that, and perhaps that is part of it, we have a much more visual culture, geared to imagery and sound bytes, and actual presence. This in itself is a major change. There were also all the expenses scandals, and worse, there's a sort of perception that parliament is this bunch of people cosying up to power and protected by their status. Which is to some degree true, and always has been. So when they cry for the 'old' labour, I think it's not just a nostalgia thing, but the ability of Labour MPs to identify with the people they serve. And to actually take some risks, not just semantic ones, but visceral ones. Leading from the front, I guess. But I've seen little of that, though perhaps that's what really endeared people to Sturgeon and Bennett. And on the right, well we know Farage was enabled, especially by the Beeb, to be seen in that kind of role.

When people are really finding it hard, I think that's the kind of solidarity they wish they could see. Perhaps not just at big events, but visibly throughout the term of parliament too. A tall order these days maybe, but with such a hold on the media, what is needed. The opposite of the Tory invisibility in real life.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 7:54 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:I do hate the shallowness of these so called debates. Set questions with little space for real answers with any depth. The very medium of debate is a recipe for producing bland content less answers. More and more I get the feeling that what people at the raw end of Tory policy, in or out of work just want Labour to stand up for them. You know, be outspoken about what is really happening, and honest in what they say, and to march with them and come out and actually be on the front line with them. Help create a groundswell of opposition.

On the other hand I watched a programme about cleaners this morning, on iPlayer. Was surprised at the claim that around six million people employ cleaners to do their homes. Perhaps we are a more upstairs, downstairs society than we think. It would explain a lot.

It is so difficult to know how to even begin assessing the situation that needs to be fixed. We seem to be such a divided society and such a divided party (Labour that is).

I would like to feel that you are right in people just wanting Labour to stand up for them (I thought Ed did that pretty well most of the time) - but then I think in particular about the Scottish Labour MPs who spoke out and fought tirelessly on issues such as the bedroom tax and other punishment policies, the work of Stella Creasy on payday lenders and their exorbitant interest rates and many other examples. And it just didn't seem to register sufficiently or with enough people.

It makes me sad to say it, but I think it's so much easier to have a scapegoat. You don't have to think deeply about things, or make yourself uncomfortable reading about innocent people suffering.

I also wonder how much worse it must get to make people understand who they should have voted for.
But it's not only the working classes, I also think the middle classes are going to need a damn good scare. I'm sure they are all feeling some sort of pinch. Too many household bills have gone up for them not to. I'm wondering if the housing market which at some point is going to go completely haywire, will be the final straw.
I remember the last recession. There were a lot of solid middle and upper middle class people suddenly with their backs to the wall. Solicitors and Lawyers. Management. People you'd have thought were well protected.

Blair was a good alternative. Fresh, young, seemed to know what he was on about, and more right wing than any previous Labour leaders.

And that's something else I've wondered about lately. Practically every week we were reading about MPs sexual peccadilloes. It was all very seedy. The papers were having a field day. Tory or Labour it didn't matter to them although it was mainly Tories that were getting caught out.
I remember particularly Mellor's extra marital affair and yet not a word about the pedophiles infesting Parliament. With what we know now, it's not hard to realise a lot of people in very high places were involved.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 8:02 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
The woman who beat Ed Balls - Andrea Jenkyns sets out her mission for parliament
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/mai ... -1-7296354" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... She said: “What type of Conservative am I? Fiscally, economically very Conservative.

“But then on issues of animal rights I’m more to the left I think, I take animal rights quite seriously, I’m a vegetarian, I am against the badger cull.”

That commitment could well see her vote against her own party on some occasions, with one difficult conversation already taking place with the whips office.

“I’m against fox hunting. I have already told the whips this, and that I would vote against repealing the ban, in my first meeting with them. I’m more liberal on those things.

“You have to vote with your conscience. If you sit on the fence on something you are not passionate about then you look to the electorate for guidance, for what works for the constituency, but I want to sleep at night, I won’t vote for something I disagree with.”...
I grateful for these small mercies. Doesn't make up for losing a Labour MP - but at least it doesn't help Cameron get his hunting ban repeal through.
I worry about the Whips. What they'll do to get the vote through.

It will be a free vote for all MPs, as it has always been. Any attempt to change that on the Tory side would get short shrift.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 8:04 pm

The investigations into the historic child abuse - vip paedophile rings etc - are never going to brought out into the real light of day, I fear. With my tin foil hat on I now see the repeated bungling of May in the year before the election re appointing a properly impartial chair for the panel as more calculated than I did at the time. They'd rather have the bad press for being incompetent and delaying things - than run the risk of things actually coming out.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 8:12 pm

Something else I've been puzzling over.

A recent poll said that more renters voted Conservative.
It sounds screwy. Labours promise to build more council houses or rather Social housing [sounds better doesn't it?] should have resounded with them, but I suspect I know why it didn't. They don't want to live in a council house no matter what name you give it. They think they're going to end up in a slum.

It's completely daft because they'll come to somewhere like Bracknell, [which from the sixties up to a few years ago, was one huge council estate] from London because they can't afford the rents there, and rent an ex-council house here.
They seem unable to join up all the dots. That more council houses would release pressure on BTL, which would mean rents and prices dropping.

I really have got to the point of total bewilderment.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 8:15 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:The investigations into the historic child abuse - vip paedophile rings etc - are never going to brought out into the real light of day, I fear. With my tin foil hat on I now see the repeated bungling of May in the year before the election re appointing a properly impartial chair for the panel as more calculated than I did at the time. They'd rather have the bad press for being incompetent and delaying things - than run the risk of things actually coming out.

The pressure and strings pulled must have been something else again because the papers were having a field day with all the rumpty pumpty going on. I think there was a couple of stories about rent boys and cruising, so they had got to a certain level of reporting.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 9:50 pm

Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound 6m6 minutes ago
Purdah rules from AV and Scottish referendum stopping taxpayers money being spent on propaganda during campaign are ditched for EU vote

Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound 7m7 minutes ago
Cameron faces new euro referendum revolt. Cameron has ditched rules banning govt and commission from pumping out propaganda during campaign

Shameless.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 06 Jun, 2015 10:36 pm

Your Facebook, Twitter and blog are about to be monitored for references to the Government

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2015/06/05/your-face ... z3cJvNjvCJ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;