Saturday 4th and Sunday 5th July 2015

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 12:50 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:NEWS: All Labour candidates agree that they want to end Free Schools (From http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/labou ... es-9589439" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

Liz has changed her mind on that then, last time she spoke on schools she - wasn't concerned who provided education as long as it was good (paraphrased)

Wouldn't be anything to do with the widely reported two free schools rated as Inadequate recently would it?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 1:04 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Wish AB would stop using "Westminster bubble!" its getting a tad boring now

I see what you mean, but I recall what A Campbell said about such things......

(ie it was only when politically aware people were getting fed up with a certain phrase, that it was finally getting through to the general public)

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 1:14 pm

I'm back. That was the shortest gardening interlude ever. Massive thunderclap directly overhead - lightening streaked through the greenhouse - torrential downpour - so loud I couldn't hear the radio - small black cat in total panic so I picked her up and stuffed her inside my jacket and ran for the house. Mr Riots is cuddling the dogs and I'm on tea duty.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 1:20 pm

Channel 4 News ‏@Channel4News 2h2 hours ago
Are Greek voters about to call the EU leaders' bluff? asks @paulmasonnews http://bit.ly/1JOs9QP" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's a very good read as usual. Truly in the thick of it ...

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 1:24 pm

Christopher Hope ‏@christopherhope 35m35 minutes ago
Christopher Hope retweeted Peter Dominiczak
BREAKING It looks Unite has agreed to back Jeremy Corbyn for Labour leader (ht @peterdominiczak). Flippin' eck.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 1:27 pm

I think - as with the BBC - they should move the HoC to Salford.
Send Cameron and co among the Mancs.
Maybe even a new show in it - the Great British posh-off.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 1:36 pm

Mike Gapes retweeted
Jacqui Oatley ‏@JacquiOatley 1h1 hour ago
To qualify for Rio 2016 @england only had to finish third best European team at the @FIFAWWC. They finished THE best euro team but can't go.

Mike Gapes retweeted
Jacqui Oatley ‏@JacquiOatley 59m59 minutes ago
The reason being that other 3 home nations must agree to sending a Team GB women's football team but are concerned about losing independence

Mike Gapes retweeted
Jacqui Oatley ‏@JacquiOatley 55m55 minutes ago
So the Olympics place the #Lionesses have earned will go to one of Norway, Sweden, Netherlands or Switzerland after a play-off tournament.

That's a bit daft of us, surely. Better to have some representation rather than none. Or am I not getting this?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 1:37 pm

And now we've got brilliant sunshine ... do I brave it again? Not a single pea plant made it into the ground during my last attempt.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 1:46 pm

Leanne Wood tops Plaid's list of candidates for Assembly elections by just 10 votes
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... st-9589173" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood came embarrassingly close to defeat in her bid to win top place on her party’s South Wales Central list of candidates for next year’s National Assembly election.

After first preference votes were counted in a selection contest, she was 10 votes behind Cardiff councillor Neil McEvoy.

Ms Wood had to rely on votes transferred from the third-placed candidate, party chair Dafydd Trystan Davies, to secure a 10-vote victory over Mr McEvoy, who until 2012 was the deputy leader of Cardiff council.

It is understood that around 300 Plaid members took part in the two hustings events where votes were cast.

The narrowness of the leader’s victory shocked party officials, who thought she was on course for a decisive win on the back of the significant TV exposure she enjoyed during the recent general election campaign, which has led to her overtaking First Minister Carwyn Jones in terms of public recognition in Wales...

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 2:11 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Wish AB would stop using "Westminster bubble!" its getting a tad boring now
I see what you mean, but I recall what A Campbell said about such things......

(ie it was only when politically aware people were getting fed up with a certain phrase, that it was finally getting through to the general public)

The problem is not the phrase but who is using it.

Someone more entrenched in the 'Westminster Bubble' than Burnham it would be hard to find. He has had no significant experience outside it.

That isn't a dig at Burnham's history: that is just what you have to do to get on in Labour politics. The career history of all the candidates is nearly identical, and is the same as Ed Miliband's (Corbyn doesn't count). there is a structural problem for which they are not personally resposnsible.

the problem is not Burnham's cv, which is unfortunate but no different from the others, but his ridiculous claims to being an outsider. US politicians do this all the time too of course. Jeb Bush and Hilary Clinton will also no doubt claim to be outsiders fighting against Washington. Just as laughable.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 2:11 pm

Andy For Leader ‏@LabourAndy · Jul 4
Andy Burnham just now endorsed @MichaelDugher's plan to let the state bid for Rail Franchises in order to take them back into public control

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 2:18 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Wish AB would stop using "Westminster bubble!" its getting a tad boring now
I see what you mean, but I recall what A Campbell said about such things......

(ie it was only when politically aware people were getting fed up with a certain phrase, that it was finally getting through to the general public)
The problem is not the phrase but who is using it.

Someone more entrenched in the 'Westminster Bubble' than Burnham it would be hard to find. He has had no significant experience outside it.

That isn't a dig at Burnham's history: that is just what you have to do to get on in Labour politics. The career history of all the candidates is nearly identical, and is the same as Ed Miliband's (Corbyn doesn't count). there is a structural problem for which they are not personally resposnsible.

the problem is not Burnham's cv, which is unfortunate but no different from the others, but his ridiculous claims to being an outsider. US politicians do this all the time too of course. Jeb Bush and Hilary Clinton will also no doubt claim to be outsiders fighting against Washington. Just as laughable.

Yes, all very true and I agree.

Though there is always the "Nixon to China" argument - only somebody who has been part of the system, and thus understands it, can successfully change it?

Burnham is an ex-SPAD and all that, true, but he has also IIRC had a job outside politics (sports teacher)

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 2:25 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: I see what you mean, but I recall what A Campbell said about such things......

(ie it was only when politically aware people were getting fed up with a certain phrase, that it was finally getting through to the general public)
The problem is not the phrase but who is using it.

Someone more entrenched in the 'Westminster Bubble' than Burnham it would be hard to find. He has had no significant experience outside it.

That isn't a dig at Burnham's history: that is just what you have to do to get on in Labour politics. The career history of all the candidates is nearly identical, and is the same as Ed Miliband's (Corbyn doesn't count). there is a structural problem for which they are not personally resposnsible.

the problem is not Burnham's cv, which is unfortunate but no different from the others, but his ridiculous claims to being an outsider. US politicians do this all the time too of course. Jeb Bush and Hilary Clinton will also no doubt claim to be outsiders fighting against Washington. Just as laughable.
Yes, all very true and I agree.

Though there is always the "Nixon to China" argument - only somebody who has been part of the system, and thus understands it, can successfully change it?

Burnham is an ex-SPAD and all that, true, but he has also IIRC had a job outside politics (sports teacher)

Did he? I can't find any reference to his being a sports teacher on google, and his wiki page makes no reference to it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Burnham" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The (one) year as an administrator for the football task force seems to be it.

Cooper had a couple of years as a journalist, Kendall several years working for the IPPR and charities.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 2:33 pm

https://www.tuc.org.uk/economic-issues/ ... est-losses" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Middle-income families face largest losses from health, education and social care cuts, new study shows

(TUC/LandmanEconomics)

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 2:42 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: The problem is not the phrase but who is using it.

Someone more entrenched in the 'Westminster Bubble' than Burnham it would be hard to find. He has had no significant experience outside it.

That isn't a dig at Burnham's history: that is just what you have to do to get on in Labour politics. The career history of all the candidates is nearly identical, and is the same as Ed Miliband's (Corbyn doesn't count). there is a structural problem for which they are not personally resposnsible.

the problem is not Burnham's cv, which is unfortunate but no different from the others, but his ridiculous claims to being an outsider. US politicians do this all the time too of course. Jeb Bush and Hilary Clinton will also no doubt claim to be outsiders fighting against Washington. Just as laughable.
Yes, all very true and I agree.

Though there is always the "Nixon to China" argument - only somebody who has been part of the system, and thus understands it, can successfully change it?

Burnham is an ex-SPAD and all that, true, but he has also IIRC had a job outside politics (sports teacher)
Did he? I can't find any reference to his being a sports teacher on google, and his wiki page makes no reference to it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Burnham" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The (one) year as an administrator for the football task force seems to be it.

Cooper had a couple of years as a journalist, Kendall several years working for the IPPR and charities.

I was going on the account of somebody (on a football forum, not politics) who claimed he had spent time at their school. Though he quite possibly did in the above context.

(they seemed to confirm his support for Everton FC is genuine, at least)

Anyway, my wider point remains.....

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 2:54 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: Yes, all very true and I agree.

Though there is always the "Nixon to China" argument - only somebody who has been part of the system, and thus understands it, can successfully change it?

Burnham is an ex-SPAD and all that, true, but he has also IIRC had a job outside politics (sports teacher)
Did he? I can't find any reference to his being a sports teacher on google, and his wiki page makes no reference to it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Burnham" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The (one) year as an administrator for the football task force seems to be it.

Cooper had a couple of years as a journalist, Kendall several years working for the IPPR and charities.
I was going on the account of somebody (on a football forum, not politics) who claimed he had spent time at their school. Though he quite possibly did in the above context.

(they seemed to confirm his support for Everton FC is genuine, at least)

Anyway, my wider point remains.....

I am sure it is, and will probably play better than Miliband's love of baseball (which was a small contribution to his appearing odd). Probably more of a fan than David Villa Cameron.

That all pols have to support a football team is also one of the irritations of the age (and I like football).

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 2:56 pm

AB has worked at Thomas Cook and as a journalist on trade journals with titles like Tank World and Passenger Rail Management and Container Management.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/an ... ff-6002643" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personally I've never gone for this "never worked in the real wold" disparaging line about politicians, it means nothing. I want someone who knows politics inside out, knows how policies affect the people, and will put our broken society back together.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 3:02 pm

SpinningHugo wrote: and will probably play better than Miliband's love of baseball (which was a small contribution to his appearing odd).

What's odd about liking a sport that you discovered from having lived in the US when you were a kid?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 3:13 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:AB has worked at Thomas Cook and as a journalist on trade journals with titles like Tank World and Passenger Rail Management and Container Management.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/an ... ff-6002643" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personally I've never gone for this "never worked in the real wold" disparaging line about politicians, it means nothing. I want someone who knows politics inside out, knows how policies affect the people, and will put our broken society back together.

I don't think Thomas Cook counts. It was a work placement (by the sounds of it before he was 16). His citing that looks desperate.

The trade journals thing must have been just after he graduated. Looking at his age, he would have finished at Cambridge in 1993? That leaves a gap of a year before he started working for Tessa Jowell.

Even his best friend would have to describe that as very small experience outside of Westminster.

I think we have a narrow professional political class and it is a big problem, both for them and us. Thinking back to the people who I knew personally who went into politics, they were not very impressive. Perhaps that colours my view.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 3:14 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: and will probably play better than Miliband's love of baseball (which was a small contribution to his appearing odd).

What's odd about liking a sport that you discovered from having lived in the US when you were a kid?

i like baseball (although I am a blue jays fan myself.

In the UK every pol has to love football. Sad, but that is the way it is. Perhaps it is different for women pols?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 3:22 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: and will probably play better than Miliband's love of baseball (which was a small contribution to his appearing odd).

What's odd about liking a sport that you discovered from having lived in the US when you were a kid?

i like baseball (although I am a blue jays fan myself.

In the UK every pol has to love football. Sad, but that is the way it is. Perhaps it is different for women pols?

Miliband supported Leeds from when he lived there - although he said he was a lapsed fan. Still not sure why you think that was part of him 'appearing odd' - that sounds like your prejudice talking.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 3:38 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:

What's odd about liking a sport that you discovered from having lived in the US when you were a kid?

i like baseball (although I am a blue jays fan myself.

In the UK every pol has to love football. Sad, but that is the way it is. Perhaps it is different for women pols?
Miliband supported Leeds from when he lived there - although he said he was a lapsed fan. Still not sure why you think that was part of him 'appearing odd' - that sounds like your prejudice talking.

Read that Burnham interview in the Mirror. Again, no doubt, this is my prejudice talking but his entire pitch is his ordinary Andy thing. Everton supporting Scouser, who wanted to be a travel agent but somehow wound up in Cambridge. (I call bullshit on the claim that a Cambridge College in the late 1980s would have given an interview candidate sherry to drink.)

Now that isn't a million miles away from the truth, but he is actually a middle class man from Newton-le-Willows. (That Labour has so few properly working class candidates in its front rank is an aspect of the problem with professional politicians, but is specific to the party).

That is modern politics. They have to portray themselves as ordinary (see Cameron the Villa supporter).

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 3:47 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:AB has worked at Thomas Cook and as a journalist on trade journals with titles like Tank World and Passenger Rail Management and Container Management.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/an ... ff-6002643" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personally I've never gone for this "never worked in the real wold" disparaging line about politicians, it means nothing. I want someone who knows politics inside out, knows how policies affect the people, and will put our broken society back together.
I don't think Thomas Cook counts. It was a work placement (by the sounds of it before he was 16). His citing that looks desperate.

The trade journals thing must have been just after he graduated. Looking at his age, he would have finished at Cambridge in 1993? That leaves a gap of a year before he started working for Tessa Jowell.

Even his best friend would have to describe that as very small experience outside of Westminster.

I think we have a narrow professional political class and it is a big problem, both for them and us. Thinking back to the people who I knew personally who went into politics, they were not very impressive. Perhaps that colours my view.

The article is sub-headed - "what shaped the man who wants to shape Britain" - basically telling people about himself, so no, its not desperate, just a fact along his path in life.
At 15 I worked in a hairdressers. One day an old lady came in, very flustered as she had been mugged and lost her whole weeks pension. The owner (a tory local councillor) rang the police and said she could sit and wait for them. I made her a cup of tea.
On pay day I asked what the 3d deduction was for, only to be told it was for the old ladies cup of tea - did I think he was going to pay for some old woman getting herself mugged?
That was the day I turned against capitalism and developed a strong dislike for the tory's that has never deserted me.
Its these little experiences that shape you into the person you eventually become, not the route you take to get there, that matter.

Edit to add, now I've seen your next post
I do agree Andy is laying it on with a trowel over the "I'm an ordinary bloke, me" narrative and I wish he would stop it.
Edit to change lying to laying - big difference - lol

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 3:57 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... e-patients" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

London GP surgeries closing.

But I thought GPs had it easy under that Labour's GP contract, and that Hunt was giving them money to open 7 days a week!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 4:16 pm

Agree with Hugo on the narrowness of the political class, and can't help feel (having been in and left academia) that there is much to learn of great value outside of it that might help one contribute to running a country. Including different perspective.

Would very much like to see far wider participation in politics, but the horrendousness of our press and social media will ensure that on the whole only sociopaths and the truly arrogant will be able to survive.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 4:30 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Agree with Hugo on the narrowness of the political class, and can't help feel (having been in and left academia) that there is much to learn of great value outside of it that might help one contribute to running a country. Including different perspective.

Would very much like to see far wider participation in politics, but the horrendousness of our press and social media will ensure that on the whole only sociopaths and the truly arrogant will be able to survive.

The 2015 intake of Labour MP's is very diverse, give them time and they may get to the top

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 4:49 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Agree with Hugo on the narrowness of the political class, and can't help feel (having been in and left academia) that there is much to learn of great value outside of it that might help one contribute to running a country. Including different perspective.

Would very much like to see far wider participation in politics, but the horrendousness of our press and social media will ensure that on the whole only sociopaths and the truly arrogant will be able to survive.
The 2015 intake of Labour MP's is very diverse, give them time and they may get to the top

I don't think that is right.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... ters-trust" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Most had worked professionally in politics before, a rising tide. A large majority University graduates. These are not the working class.

How should this be solved?

The big problem is that each constituency selects its own MP.

Think of it like buying a house. If we can only have one, most of us will choose something pretty similar (given a fixed budget). If however we had enough money to buy 3 properties, we'd choose 3 quite different properties, no point in having 3 the same. A City flat, a place in the country, and a holiday home.

the same is true in politics. If they can only have one, most constituencies will choose much the same kind of candidate. If candidates were selected in groups of 3 or 4 we would see much more diversity (and not just along class, race, and sex lines. People to the right of the party - like me - would have more of a chance of selection.) If we did that we wouldn't have need for quotas (which cause so much upset).

As it is we get bland uniformity.

We should also, i think, not re-select people past 67.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 4:51 pm

Higher income earners who live in social housing will no longer be able to claim taxpayer-funded subsidies for their rent under a fresh welfare cut expected to be announced by George Osborne in his Summer Budget this week.

The “Pay to Stay” measure, which will form part of the Chancellor’s attempts to slash the Government’s welfare bill by £12bn, will scrap benefits for some 350,000 people who live in housing association and local authority properties. The move will save £250m a year by 2018/19, a fraction of the £12bn Mr Osborne plans to cut.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 66555.html

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 5:01 pm

Andrew Spooner ‏8 hours ago

For tax purposes a "high earner" is set at £150k or £72 an hr. If you live in public housing a "high earner" is set at £30k or £14 per hr

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 5:07 pm

Hello all.

After our various discussions just after the election about a blog, as some of you know TGS has started one.

It's here - thegrimsqueakerreturns.wordpress.com

It's taking a while to get going, as TGS has had some computer issues and I haven't had much time what with one thing and another - eg. Show's poorliness, and having the lovely builders in to do our kitchen for the past 2 weeks (thank you, Welsh government's Better Homes Programme) and whatnot....any of you who feel able, please join in and feel free to comment.

I've put up a new post today called The Benefits of Benefits.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re. Labour leadership candidates - only Jeremy Corbyn will get my support.

Kendall is an arse. She is now dissing the free schools programme because a) she thinks it's expedient and b) latest results are poor.
Cooper is an unreconstructed Blairite whatever she says now and has way too much baggage - flipping, Atos, and flipping Atos.
Burnham is all a bit meh, and although he's the best of the rest, he can't hold a candle to Ed - who for the good of his country should be standing.

Corbyn will not win. Despite my reservations about some of his wilder allegiances, he is the only real left-wing candidate available to vote for.
So he gets my vote, and when the winner is announced and it's not him, I will be leaving the party.

I joined Labour because the LibDem party (which I supported for decades) changed into a monster once the Orange Bookers took over at the top and Clegg put the final nail in the coffin the day he went into coalition with Cameron.
I joined Labour because it was obvious to me that Ed Miliband was the right brother (I would never have joined if the other one was leader) and that he had the makings of a statesman - I also think he would have moved Labour left in time.
I joined Labour because, under Ed, it was more united than it had been for many years; that young man performed a miracle that no other Labour leader has ever pulled off, and within days of his resignation they were squabbling once again.

Of course, my opinion counts for very little. My vote counts a bit more, and I will use it - but I am not impressed by this whole circus and I have no idea what any of these people actually stand for apart from Corbyn.

It depresses the fuck out of me, frankly.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 5:29 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Andrew Spooner ‏8 hours ago

For tax purposes a "high earner" is set at £150k or £72 an hr. If you live in public housing a "high earner" is set at £30k or £14 per hr

Indeed.

Band 6 nurses, ward sister/charge nurse level, reach the dizzy heights of £30,057PA in their fourth year at that grade.

Inner London weighting varies, and is not fixed as it used to be - it is now worked out on a percentage basis and on precisely where a person lives and works. A newly-qualified staff nurse on a basic wage of £21,692, working at Guys or Tommy's, would reach the magic £30K within a year.

The Tories, of course, have said in the not so distant past that they were keen for essential workers like nurses and emergency staff to have priority for social housing - if that's the case, they will, if they introduce this measure, find that those workers are no longer eligible for social housing because they earn far far too much money.

Obviously, homes left vacant by the disaspora of all those nurses and coppers earning a fortune will be reserved for people who fulfil the Tories' criteria of being "essential" but who earn less than £16 an hour - and when these people fail to materialise because they don't exist, the homes will be...sold.
Sold - because they can't possibly go to those pesky benefit claimants, working as cleaners at Sothebys (whoops! they got sacked) or the Palace of Westminster or Buck House (ZHCs, so can't afford to live in London), even though they work full time and are barely surviving on tax credits and HB going to their private landlords - after all, it would make sense to give the working poor a cheap flat wouldn't it? So it won't happen.

I'm getting up early tomorrow to hate the Tories a bit longer.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 5:31 pm

Looks like it could be "NO" in Greece

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 5:33 pm

ephemerid wrote:Hello all.

After our various discussions just after the election about a blog, as some of you know TGS has started one.

It's here - thegrimsqueakerreturns.wordpress.com

It's taking a while to get going, as TGS has had some computer issues and I haven't had much time what with one thing and another - eg. Show's poorliness, and having the lovely builders in to do our kitchen for the past 2 weeks (thank you, Welsh government's Better Homes Programme) and whatnot....any of you who feel able, please join in and feel free to comment.

I've put up a new post today called The Benefits of Benefits.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re. Labour leadership candidates - only Jeremy Corbyn will get my support.

Kendall is an arse. She is now dissing the free schools programme because a) she thinks it's expedient and b) latest results are poor.
Cooper is an unreconstructed Blairite whatever she says now and has way too much baggage - flipping, Atos, and flipping Atos.
Burnham is all a bit meh, and although he's the best of the rest, he can't hold a candle to Ed - who for the good of his country should be standing.

Corbyn will not win. Despite my reservations about some of his wilder allegiances, he is the only real left-wing candidate available to vote for.
So he gets my vote, and when the winner is announced and it's not him, I will be leaving the party.

I joined Labour because the LibDem party (which I supported for decades) changed into a monster once the Orange Bookers took over at the top and Clegg put the final nail in the coffin the day he went into coalition with Cameron.
I joined Labour because it was obvious to me that Ed Miliband was the right brother (I would never have joined if the other one was leader) and that he had the makings of a statesman - I also think he would have moved Labour left in time.
I joined Labour because, under Ed, it was more united than it had been for many years; that young man performed a miracle that no other Labour leader has ever pulled off, and within days of his resignation they were squabbling once again.

Of course, my opinion counts for very little. My vote counts a bit more, and I will use it - but I am not impressed by this whole circus and I have no idea what any of these people actually stand for apart from Corbyn.

It depresses the fuck out of me, frankly.

My experience and feelings exactly....

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 5:40 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Looks like it could be "NO" in Greece

If it is - I can well see why and how that's happened. It's the only option that offers any possibility of any kind of 'change' - whether good or bad. I wonder what kind of turnout there has been. I can also imagine the terrible sense of personal powerlessness and inertia that must come with living with those stresses for so long.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 5:40 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Why Zac Goldsmith’s views on Heathrow and Europe are a problem for Cameron
The MP now tipped to be London’s mayor has long been the face of green Toryism . But his passionate opposition to a third runway could put him on a collision course with his party
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... id-cameron" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interesting piece although irritating that the G seem to have him virtually sitting in the Mayor's seat already. There's a lot that can happen between now and the election.

But this bit of background
Cameron was in his ultra-green phase and wanted Zac Goldsmith, former editor of the Ecologist magazine, to develop ideas on how to tackle climate change, cut carbon emissions and promote green transport.

When the group reported in 2007, Cameron’s then director of communications, Andy Coulson, was far from impressed. Some of the ideas looked to him like certain vote-losers: what Cameron might refer to these days as “green crap”. One suggestion – that local councils be given powers to charge for parking at out-of-town supermarkets to encourage people to shop on their high streets – was particularly unwise, Coulson believed.
prompts me to tell you about recent events in sleepy Cardigan.

Someone went round the town centre car parks about three weeks ago and comprehensively smashed to smithereens the ticket machines. Their collecting boxes were hanging open and bent like gaping mouths. They are now covered in black plastic and taped up with big out of order signs. Result ... town traders are happy happy people. In particular the market stall traders in the Guildhall which had been done up at great town council expense but was failing badly are reporting booming business. Happy happy local residents. It no longer costs £1.10p just to stop in order to buy a loaf of bread from the independent bakers in town ... yay!

Power to the people

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 5:47 pm

Andrew Neil ‏@afneil 11m11 minutes ago
All six major Greek TV stations are predicting a victory for the No campaign.

I wonder what the Troika are planning for their next move ...

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 5:53 pm

A No in Greece, and the Chinese stockmarket collapsing?

Interesting times.

Buy gold is my advice (or if you cannot afford that, stock up on tins of soup).

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 5:56 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Andrew Neil ‏@afneil 3m3 minutes ago
Chancellor confirms welfare cap will be lower than £23,000 outside London on @MarrShow

This is not just nuts but could be regarded as positive cruelty!

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 6:07 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Agree with Hugo on the narrowness of the political class, and can't help feel (having been in and left academia) that there is much to learn of great value outside of it that might help one contribute to running a country. Including different perspective.

Would very much like to see far wider participation in politics, but the horrendousness of our press and social media will ensure that on the whole only sociopaths and the truly arrogant will be able to survive.
The 2015 intake of Labour MP's is very diverse, give them time and they may get to the top
I don't think that is right.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... ters-trust" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Most had worked professionally in politics before, a rising tide. A large majority University graduates. These are not the working class.

How should this be solved?

The big problem is that each constituency selects its own MP.

Think of it like buying a house. If we can only have one, most of us will choose something pretty similar (given a fixed budget). If however we had enough money to buy 3 properties, we'd choose 3 quite different properties, no point in having 3 the same. A City flat, a place in the country, and a holiday home.

the same is true in politics. If they can only have one, most constituencies will choose much the same kind of candidate. If candidates were selected in groups of 3 or 4 we would see much more diversity (and not just along class, race, and sex lines. People to the right of the party - like me - would have more of a chance of selection.) If we did that we wouldn't have need for quotas (which cause so much upset).

As it is we get bland uniformity.

We should also, i think, not re-select people past 67.

People like these?
http://www.labour.org.uk/people/detail/angela-rayner" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.labour.org.uk/people/detail/kate-osamor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.labour.org.uk/people/detail/marie-rimmer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.jennychapman.co.uk/about-jenny/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.roberta.org.uk/rbw/default.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

..and many others
http://www.labour.org.uk/people/filter/ ... in-content" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regarding university educated, are we really a party that practises inverse snobbery? I find the argument that a university education should automatically exclude you from politic ridiculous and does not take into account the large numbers who went to university under that last labour government. You're hard pushed to find people who did not go over finding someone who did.
I'm happy for constituencies to select their own MP.
I'll agree on the age limit, but would push that up to 70 or whatever retirement age end up as.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 6:10 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Andrew Neil ‏@afneil 3m3 minutes ago
Chancellor confirms welfare cap will be lower than £23,000 outside London on @MarrShow
This is not just nuts but could be regarded as positive cruelty!

I've just heard that Osborne is saying that those on low pay who will lose tax credits after his 'emergency budget' will be compensated by cuts in tax ... I feel a scream being suppressed as I ask the radio what happens to the poor sods who aren't even earning enough to pay tax - who don't have enough hours to work full time etc etc. He just fires these pat responses off and there is no questioning by the Beeb presenter, no points such as that one raised.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 6:17 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Andrew Neil ‏@afneil 3m3 minutes ago
Chancellor confirms welfare cap will be lower than £23,000 outside London on @MarrShow
This is not just nuts but could be regarded as positive cruelty!

Not enough people are hurting, in the tories' opinion, must go nationwide.

How will that higher earners in social housing thing work? The council/HA will hand the extra rent over to the treasury?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 6:18 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
I've just heard that Osborne is saying that those on low pay who will lose tax credits after his 'emergency budget' will be compensated by cuts in tax ... I feel a scream being suppressed as I ask the radio what happens to the poor sods who aren't even earning enough to pay tax - who don't have enough hours to work full time etc etc. He just fires these pat responses off and there is no questioning by the Beeb presenter, no points such as that one raised.

And how about asking what this tax cut costs?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 6:24 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote: The 2015 intake of Labour MP's is very diverse, give them time and they may get to the top
I don't think that is right.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... ters-trust" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Most had worked professionally in politics before, a rising tide. A large majority University graduates. These are not the working class.

How should this be solved?

The big problem is that each constituency selects its own MP.

Think of it like buying a house. If we can only have one, most of us will choose something pretty similar (given a fixed budget). If however we had enough money to buy 3 properties, we'd choose 3 quite different properties, no point in having 3 the same. A City flat, a place in the country, and a holiday home.

the same is true in politics. If they can only have one, most constituencies will choose much the same kind of candidate. If candidates were selected in groups of 3 or 4 we would see much more diversity (and not just along class, race, and sex lines. People to the right of the party - like me - would have more of a chance of selection.) If we did that we wouldn't have need for quotas (which cause so much upset).

As it is we get bland uniformity.

We should also, i think, not re-select people past 67.
People like these?
http://www.labour.org.uk/people/detail/angela-rayner" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.labour.org.uk/people/detail/kate-osamor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.labour.org.uk/people/detail/marie-rimmer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.jennychapman.co.uk/about-jenny/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.roberta.org.uk/rbw/default.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

..and many others
http://www.labour.org.uk/people/filter/ ... in-content" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regarding university educated, are we really a party that practises inverse snobbery? I find the argument that a university education should automatically exclude you from politic ridiculous and does not take into account the large numbers who went to university under that last labour government. You're hard pushed to find people who did not go over finding someone who did.
I'm happy for constituencies to select their own MP.
I'll agree on the age limit, but would push that up to 70 or whatever retirement age end up as.

You have to look at the numbers, not a handful of people. And it is also a bit unfair to require me to say "Person X actually looks a bit shit" (although I am less impressed by that list than you.)

Labour is the party of the working class. It is absolutely fine that it has many people from middle class backgrounds in the leadership. Attlee was no horny handed son of toil, and nor was Blair. The problem now is that there is nobody at all in the front rank who is working class. That is what made the loss of AJ so serious. it just isn't so big problem for the Tories that they are a bunch of rich people: that is who they represent anyway.

it isn't just who gets selected, but who gets promoted once elected. Look at the frontbench and the proportion of ex-Spads is much higher than amongst MPs in general. That is because it is a club: people get promoted because they are known. it is also the case that they are younger, and so have more of an opportunity to get promoted and so make it to leader. Look at the list of candidates for leader this time and last: ex-SpAds.

I can give positive suggestions on how to diversify MPs, but the ex-SpAds getting promoted problem is even more serious.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 6:26 pm

Following on from discussion of overuse of 'Westminster bubble' and what does or doesn't qualify someone as being irretrievably part of it ... One of the questions asked of Andy Burnham last night concerned the concentration of party resources and organisation in either Westminster or, in Wales, Cardiff. We'd had a bit of discussion in the introduction of just how far west we were in Whitland ... and how generally forgotten and unvisited such remote areas are by the party bigwigs and organisation - as so amply evidenced by the hustings organisation and our experience in the election just gone. Christine Gwyther - former Assembly Member and now supporting the candidate for Camarthenshire & S Pembs in the forthcoming Assembly election - asked how the party was going to support his campaign. Burnham's reply acknowledged the imbalance between the resources and focus given to the seats of government and cities and said he would look to redistribute resources, staff, organisational infrastructure so that all areas were better involved and supported. He sounded as though he meant it. He had set out many of the issues of disconnection across the party and country in his opening.

If that were to happen - and much better channels of feedback were established between activists / members and those working for Labour and elected representatives - we might just start getting more of the connection and authenticity across the party that people are desperately looking for.

It was a pretty good attendance for a relatively short notice event - in a small town on a Saturday evening - I'd say 150 or so. The hall was full - and people had to stand anyway.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 6:31 pm

"those on low pay who will lose tax credits after his 'emergency budget' will be compensated by cuts in tax"

Any gain for those that pay income tax will be tapered away under UC

As confirmed by Richard Exell in an answer to my question :-

http://touchstoneblog.org.uk/2015/06/cu ... -families/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 6:34 pm

Whatever else you say about Burnham, he represents "small town" Labour - not the big conurbations (though that is also true of Cooper to some extent tbf)

This may not be insignificant.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 6:36 pm

Will Osborne raise the NI thresholds to the same level as income tax?

That makes some sense in itself. But does very little for people who'll be losing out on tax credits.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 6:37 pm

Clare Gerada ‏@clarercgp 12m12 minutes ago Malta
Excellent GP practice forced to close. Dear @Jeremy_Hunt we are losing the jewel in #nhs crown - patients will suffer http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

GPs were meant to be at the vanguard of Lansley's new reformed NHS. They - and we - have been pissed on from a great height. I still feel very angry at the Lib Dems for allowing that vile bill to get through and wasting so much money, resource and goodwill on destructive reorganising. Irrational to blame them more than the Tories - I know - but I do because they said they would be the brake on the Tories, the moderating force, the heart ... yeah, yeah. Now look where we are.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 6:45 pm

HindleA wrote:"those on low pay who will lose tax credits after his 'emergency budget' will be compensated by cuts in tax"

Any gain for those that pay income tax will be tapered away under UC

As confirmed by Richard Exell in an answer to my question :-

http://touchstoneblog.org.uk/2015/06/cu ... -families/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good article - some very stark points made - such as 59% of those receiving tax credits not being on Cameron's 'merry go round'. Good question and response.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 05 Jul, 2015 6:49 pm

Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson 4m4 minutes ago Hellas
Here's the official English results page for the Greek referendum if you want to follow in real time. http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/e/public ... ml?lang=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Jim Pickard retweeted
Peter Hoskins ‏@PeterHoskinsTV 8m8 minutes ago
With more than 20% of #Greferendum votes counted 'No' leading with 60.39%