Monday 13th July 2015

Post by **refitman** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 7:10 am

Morning all.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 8:17 am

http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... -deal-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A Greek deal has been reached, apparently.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 8:27 am

Just noticed that Victoria Derbyshire has the Labour leadership candidates on in front of a live audience if you're interested and able to watch.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 8:30 am

utopiandreams wrote:Just noticed that Victoria Derbyshire has the Labour leadership candidates on in front of a live audience if you're interested and able to watch.

From behind the sofa?

Good morfternoon, everyone.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 8:34 am

Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn 28m28 minutes ago
Ministers to propose plans for a controversial new TV poll tax as a new way to fund the BBC; http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... d-BBC.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Just who and how many have been screaming that the current licence fee arrangement needs such change???? This is another intimidatory action to cow and turn people against one of our big - and generally respected even now - organisations.

Still - if the Tories insist on doing this (I'm seeing £25 a month price comparisons with other countries in tweets) then please let the media keep on calling it a poll tax ... that will be very helpful. Poll tax Tories.

Oh and morning. Poor Greeks - they've really had a number done on them.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 8:35 am

Labour leadership candidates criticise Harriet Harman's welfare stance

Decision by acting leader not to oppose the government’s welfare bill has come under fire from Burnham, Cooper and Corbyn

Efforts by the acting Labour leader, Harriet Harman, to show the party has listened to the electorate and will change its stance on welfare appear to be on the brink of collapse as she faced a backlash from three leadership contenders, and a stormy meeting of Labour MPs later on Monday. (Guardian)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... are-stance

Edited to add -

Someone is missing from that list. Who could that be, I wonder?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 8:45 am

My own reaction to Harriet Harman's comments was that they sounded remarkably similar to LibDem apologists during the coalition. You'll know how I felt then. Yes, Harriet, the Tories my have won the election but they have not won the argument. There are many more missing and floating voters to chase than ever voted Conservative in the meantime the country deserves better.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 8:46 am

Morning.
http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2015/07/t ... ss-budget/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The homelessness budget"

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 8:49 am

More than 200,000 unemployed people endured 'appalling' bureaucratic delays while benefit claims were assessed, says Frank Field
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 83858.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... Mr Field told The Independent: “These are gut-wrenching delays. These are benefits for people who are usually on their uppers.” He acknowledged that the Department for Work and Pensions [DWP] had made improvements in the numbers of claims it processes within 10 days.

But he added: “To go even one day, let alone two weeks, with no money, is impossibly difficult, particularly if the person making the claim has just lost their job and has little or nothing in the bank.

“For the department still to leave hundreds of thousands of people in the lurch and vulnerable to hunger for weeks on end is appalling.

“If the department could deliver all new claims more swiftly and implement a fairer sanctions regime, it would overnight halve the numbers of people needing to rely on food banks.”

An all-party parliamentary inquiry last year found that around one-third of people who went to food banks used them because of delays in receiving their benefits or tax credits...

Maybe he's going to be good at shouting loud about these gross failings ... IDS and co might rue the day yet.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 9:19 am

Jack of Kent ‏@JackofKent 12m12 minutes ago
The fact that Gove so quickly drops daft illiberal policies at @MoJGovUK shows just how useless Lib Dem ministers under Grayling were.

Dinah Rose ‏@DinahRoseQC 9m9 minutes ago
Dinah Rose retweeted Jack of Kent
True. And I tried repeatedly to engage with them. Lib Dem failure to protect justice system was disgraceful.

Andy Slaughter MP ‏@hammersmithandy 6m6 minutes ago
Andy Slaughter MP retweeted Jack of Kent
Clegg tried to take cred for Secure College until it became toxic (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25766557" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …); Hughes same on book ban.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 9:35 am

The dog has his stitches out this afternoon.

Thought you would all want to know that.

Life in the Riots household has revolved around 5 minute short lead towel assisted walks, ice packs three times a day, massage of the muscles and balance training .... and we have 12 more weeks of this rehab programme to go.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 9:37 am

Alexis Tsipras has just spoken to the press, after a long night.

He defends the deal, saying he faces difficult decisions and tough dilemmas.

But this agreement will allow us to stand on our feet again.

He points out that he managed to persuade leaders not to place the new €50bn recapitalision fund in Luxembourg (it will remain in Athens)

He tells reporters that he has also won medium-term funding for Greece, and eventual debt relief.

Whether the eventual debt relief will ever materialise (it's no doubt linked to almost impossible reforms) remains to be seen, but it was what I presume Tsipras was always holding out for and he appears to have got it of sorts. Not sure if he's achieved enough to get it through the Greek parliament. Still waiting on details.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 9:43 am

Whatever the formal position, the fact is that Harman is a de facto interim leader of the party who is looking after things until somebody is *elected*.

She was going way beyond her remit in acting unilaterally yesterday in the way she did. I have to say I am disappointed.

(and looking like my decision to put her 6th out of 6 back in 2007 wasn't so bad after all

)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 9:54 am

Cooper standing up for tax credits on Victoria Derbyshire and is against the two kid limit. Glad to see her opposing the arbitrary discrimination against larger families and not kowtowing to the right-wing narrative as Kendall did.

Burnham stood up for under 25's and opposed the discrimination against younger workers in Osborne's "living" wage.

Kendall still obsessing with the fact that the Tories won so to win you have to become a Tory party. She really is a liability. People aren't going to enjoy being governed by the Tories over the next 5 years and will be looking for an alternative in 2020. Why can't she see that?

Corbyn thinks Labour lost because they didn't oppose austerity and offered 5 more years of cuts like the Tories. He may be right.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 10:00 am

From reading the account (Politics Blog, Guardian) of the leadership hustings thingy, Yvette Cooper is, so far, coming across best.

This,

Andy Burnham says he realised that the longer the drive that you had to walk down to get to the front door to canvas[sic], the less you would have to say to the people on the other side.

I think, was a pretty juvenile thing to have said.

Edited to add a [sic]

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 10:26 am

Following what is being said so far Cooper's soundbites are pretty good. More to the left than they were under Miliband. Anyone care to postulate why?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 10:29 am

Andy Burnham is still on about the "Westminster Bubble". It's becoming a tad wearing.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 10:31 am

PorFavor wrote:From reading the account (Politics Blog, Guardian) of the leadership hustings thingy, Yvette Cooper is, so far, coming across best.

This,

Andy Burnham says he realised that the longer the drive that you had to walk down to get to the front door to canvas[sic], the less you would have to say to the people on the other side.
I think, was a pretty juvenile thing to have said.

Edited to add a [sic]

Burnham has passion and says the right things, but Cooper is better on detail. Her experience is showing and experience wouldn't be a bad thing for Labour right now. She's definitely growing in confidence and is currently defending Labour's spending record pre-crash very robustly and convincingly - something Ed struggled with. Andy 'admitting' Labour was spending too much is just plain wrong and is pushing me towards Cooper tbh. Labour let house price inflation run out of control, they let household debt grow too high - those are the economic mistakes Labour made, not one of spending, not one of deficit levels, but of the wrong tax incentives, disincentives in specific areas. Cooper gives me more confidence that she has a strong grasp of the economic issues and, like Ed, isn't going to say things that are economically illiterate, just because she thinks that's what voters want to hear.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 10:39 am

StephenDolan wrote:Following what is being said so far Cooper's soundbites are pretty good. More to the left than they were under Miliband. Anyone care to postulate why?

Because the 'voters' are Labour party members and she wants to be leader. Kendall's trying to win the next election before she's even won the leadership contest and will crash and burn as a result. Cooper understands she has to win the support of the party first and then win wider support once she's leader. I'm actually moving towards Cooper because she doesn't appear afraid to go against the grain of the MSM narrative. She insisted Labour was well placed to deal with the financial crisis because the deficit wasn't very big - now that's audacious! I like it. Proper fighting talk

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 10:49 am

Burnham's soundbites may be wearing a bit thin for some of us, but I expect they play better with his target audience.

(I can assure you that the anti-"Westminster bubble" thing is big up here, and it is indeed a major driver of UKIP support)

Though I agree that Cooper is coming across well (today and more generally) and I would not be unhappy to see either her or Andy as leader as things stand.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 10:54 am

StephenDolan wrote:Following what is being said so far Cooper's soundbites are pretty good. More to the left than they were under Miliband. Anyone care to postulate why?

She wants to win.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 11:01 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Burnham's soundbites may be wearing a bit thin for some of us, but I expect they play better with his target audience.

(I can assure you that the anti-"Westminster bubble" thing is big up here, and it is indeed a major driver of UKIP support)

Though I agree that Cooper is coming across well (today and more generally) and I would not be unhappy to see either her or Andy as leader as things stand.

Kendall isn't going to win. If Labour loses again in 2020 it might be ready for her, but not yet.

Burnham isn't up to it. I don't think he has an idea in his head.

So, I fall back on Cooper. I wanted her to replace Miliband in 2013. She isn't going to set the world ablaze, but is professional.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 11:15 am

Kendall will never be Labour leader - you heard it here first

(the thinking being that there are other more gifted politicians ready to take over - Jarvis and Creasy to name but two - if there is another vacancy in 2020 or indeed earlier)

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 11:16 am

Unite says that it has signed up fifty thousand affiliates for the leadership election so far.

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-21 ... rship-vote" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 11:36 am

" Liz Kendall said that Labour needed to prove to people that it could be trusted with their taxes and shouldn’t propose measures if it couldn’t say how it would pay for them."

Insisting that every penny be costed before a policy announcement is where, to me, the two Ed's really did fall down. It took all passion and conviction out of the Labour campaign and made them all seem wooden and evasive and "all the same" - and most important - gave no offer of hope.
It didn't work last time Liz, it won't work next time.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 11:40 am

" Liz Kendall said that Labour needed to prove to people that it could be trusted with their taxes and shouldn’t propose measures if it couldn’t say how it would pay for them."

It's the tory narrative. Hook, line and sinker.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 11:45 am

Kendall was asked about suggestions that she would be better suited to the Conservative party. If people think a strong economy, sound public finances and backing businesses is something that only the Conservatives do, then the Conservatives will always be in government, she said.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/liv ... itics-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kendall appears to be associating the Tories with a strong economy - why perpetuate the urban myth rather than expose it? It just plays into the Tories' hands. Labour need to reveal the gaping holes in Osborne's economic competence, such as the unprecedented levels of household debt required to service his budget surplus. Or the looming homelessness crisis that's currently being stoked up.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 11:47 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Kendall will never be Labour leader - you heard it here first

(the thinking being that there are other more gifted politicians ready to take over - Jarvis and Creasy to name but two - if there is another vacancy in 2020 or indeed earlier)

I don't rate Jarvis.

I do rate Creasy but she isn't popular with the MPs. If she doesn't win deputy (andIi don't think she will) then that may be it for her.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 11:52 am

AngryAsWell wrote:" Liz Kendall said that Labour needed to prove to people that it could be trusted with their taxes and shouldn’t propose measures if it couldn’t say how it would pay for them."

Insisting that every penny be costed before a policy announcement is where, to me, the two Ed's really did fall down. It took all passion and conviction out of the Labour campaign and made them all seem wooden and evasive and "all the same" - and most important - gave no offer of hope.
It didn't work last time Liz, it won't work next time.

Exactly. The Tories had unfunded tax giveaways in their manifesto and have already slowed the pace at which they expect to reduce the deficit. I think Labour have misinterpreted what being responsible with the nations finances means to voters. It seems to mean tax cuts for me, me, me, even if we can't afford it, and stuff everyone else, plus public services can be run at exactly the same level on half the money because....'waste' or something.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 12:08 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Kendall will never be Labour leader - you heard it here first

(the thinking being that there are other more gifted politicians ready to take over - Jarvis and Creasy to name but two - if there is another vacancy in 2020 or indeed earlier)
I don't rate Jarvis.

I do rate Creasy but she isn't popular with the MPs. If she doesn't win deputy (andIi don't think she will) then that may be it for her.

I think you are too pessimistic there - I expect she will come a good second to Watson and that will stand her in good stead.

Re Jarvis - I thought his speech to the Progress conference just after the election was genuinely excellent (still more in contrast to most of the dross there)

Yes, I think he has it in him.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 12:26 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Kendall will never be Labour leader - you heard it here first

(the thinking being that there are other more gifted politicians ready to take over - Jarvis and Creasy to name but two - if there is another vacancy in 2020 or indeed earlier)
I don't rate Jarvis.

I do rate Creasy but she isn't popular with the MPs. If she doesn't win deputy (andIi don't think she will) then that may be it for her.
I think you are too pessimistic there - I expect she will come a good second to Watson and that will stand her in good stead.

Re Jarvis - I thought his speech to the Progress conference just after the election was genuinely excellent (still more in contrast to most of the dross there)

Yes, I think he has it in him.

"Justice" is what I do. Jarvis has been utterly useless in his job.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 12:42 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

Thank you for your early posts regarding Greece, Willow.

Money, debt, currency, economic infrastructure - not subjects often adequately taught even at the University level.
I've have to search for accurate information explaining how household, local, national government & international financial infrastructure work in the real world - it's not easy to sort out because accurate information is deliberately withheld.
No conspiracy, just a daily experience flipping through the 'free press', too often that's free as in made up stories not accurate information.
But it's possible to for regular people to get our hands on more accurate information.
I'm angry because we're deliberately lied to & it's hurting people.
Not a single EU taxpayer is going hungry because Greece has a debt they can't pay.
I'm disgusted with anyone or any organisation patronising me with such transparent lies about countries & peoples' governments threatened & harassed over illusions.
"Living within means, maxing out credit cards, lazy & don't pay taxes..." etcetera - oh, please, stop the lies.
EU countries using the euro may have fewer technical options at their disposal for straightening out economic difficulties within their nation but joining the EU isn't surrendering any nation to the IMF, ECB, EC or international financiers acting outside of democratic accountability.

I need to catch up on Labour party news & read everyone else's posts.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 1:03 pm

Torcuil Crichton ‏@Torcuil 1h1 hour ago
How will SNP vote on foxhunting? Imagine Thursday headlines: SNP unleash the hounds in England OR SNP stop baying Tories from bloodlust.

Why is it just about everybody commenting on this forgets Wales?

Wales is going to have the f.....ing hounds unleashed on it as well if the Tories get their way!

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 1:05 pm

Kate Devlin ‏@_katedevlin 2h2 hours ago
SNP source says party not keen to "offer comfort" to the Tories by setting out too early how will vote on foxhunting

That's a bad sign.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 1:12 pm

Matt Chorley ‏@MattChorley 9m9 minutes ago
Ex-Ukip MEP Ashley Mote jailed for five years after "milking Brussels expenses cash cow to the limit" in £500k fraud http://dailym.ai/1RtGUzy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 1:13 pm

Willow904 wrote:
Kendall was asked about suggestions that she would be better suited to the Conservative party. If people think a strong economy, sound public finances and backing businesses is something that only the Conservatives do, then the Conservatives will always be in government, she said.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/liv ... itics-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kendall appears to be associating the Tories with a strong economy - why perpetuate the urban myth rather than expose it? It just plays into the Tories' hands. Labour need to reveal the gaping holes in Osborne's economic competence, such as the unprecedented levels of household debt required to service his budget surplus. Or the looming homelessness crisis that's currently being stoked up.

I've got a fanciful theory.
Labour know their minds & work together but can't afford to buy another mass media so political theatre goes on in order to successfully transmit information.
Harman's got a tough act - she's goes off on a tangent suggesting the Labour party have to admit the electorate likes Tories & so Labour must replicate Tory policy. All innocent face on Harman, she says, 'Am I wrong?' Yes, HH, you're wrong. Howling derision, we're all reminded the Labour party has yet to choose a leader, HH is thrown Labour party manifesto manuals & told to read them again.
Kendall's role is to play the Tory in the Labour party - also a tough act - 'Blair's Heir' graffiti she's got scrawled over her notes is embarrassing. Kendall stands counter to the Labour party White Knight MP reminding us all be don't have discretionary income, no full-time employment but several zero-hours contracts paying apprenticeship wages, no open libraries or A&E's & all the teachers, medical staff, defence council, judges & public transportation workers have left the country.
Just be yourself, Jeremy C. Cool, he says.
Burnham & Cooper - I've not read their latest work yet & can't give a synopsis. I like the work those two have done thus far. But I've been studying macroeconomics & the Greek saga - apologies - I've neglected the Labour party leadership play.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 1:32 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Torcuil Crichton ‏@Torcuil 1h1 hour ago
How will SNP vote on foxhunting? Imagine Thursday headlines: SNP unleash the hounds in England OR SNP stop baying Tories from bloodlust.
Why is it just about everybody commenting on this forgets Wales?

Wales is going to have the f.....ing hounds unleashed on it as well if the Tories get their way!

It's a blind spot going back millennia, RR2. Wales has always been forgotten not because Wales is not memorable, no. I love Wales. I love to hike Wales, my grandpa was from Wales, if I had my druthers, I'd move to Wales. The fact remains, Wales is the place one goes to put a good pause in between the country & nation. Hinterland country, deep & sometimes turbulent when pushed my grandpa used.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 1:57 pm

Reading BTL on the Wintour report re Liz Kendall and Frank Field backing Harman's stance on the tax credit cuts ... all I can see is how much additional and completely unnecessary damage they are doing to an already battered party image. One of the comments says that Kendall keeps coming out and saying Labour has to offer these 'credible' and 'costed' alternatives - without ever once offering one of those herself. Too true - or at least I haven't heard her offer one yet. And am I wrong in thinking that Labour actually did have pretty fully costed alternative proposals in its election manifesto? Whereas the Tories just gave ballpark figures and refused to say how they would actually find those sums ... Sheesh - talk about talking up the Tories competence - they are mostly crap proposals and they have proven themselves very economically incompetent and we should be clearly able to say that ....

I've just heard Wintour commenting on the latest leadership hustings on Radio 4. He said he was surprised to realise that Corbyn is far from a parody left wing candidate just put up to make the contest look more balanced but without a real hope of winning. He said that Corbyn gives very simple and clear arguments and responses which the audience clearly appreciates ... and is right in the mix.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 2:06 pm

David Cameron open to idea of workers saving up to fund own sick pay
PM’s spokeswoman says he is prepared to consider making people pay into savings accounts to cover periods of illness or unemployment
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-sick-pay" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

FFS. So who's going to pop up to automatically agree with and support this latest then? Of course the low paid will have scads of spare money from their new £7.20 'living' wage to put into this new fund, eh....

This is now not just a race to the bottom - it's a plummet into a slurry pit.

And isn't this what National Insurance is meant to cover??????

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 2:24 pm

I seem to remember lots of products sold as 'employment protection' insurance schemes - they supposedly offered to pay out when people lost their jobs or became sick or had an accident which meant they couldn't work. Didn't they go on to become one of the biggest miss selling scandals of all time??? Not worth the paper they were written on for many people ... The banks we have all bailed out made a lot of money from them ... and then ended up paying massive fines for their disgraceful practices.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 2:29 pm

Dan Jarvis ‏@DanJarvisMP 1m1 minute ago
I want to hear from #Labour supporters about how we can best take on UKIP http://labli.st/1M1aVly" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; @LabourList

Thank you Dan Jarvis. Right approach.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 2:39 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
David Cameron open to idea of workers saving up to fund own sick pay
PM’s spokeswoman says he is prepared to consider making people pay into savings accounts to cover periods of illness or unemployment
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-sick-pay" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
FFS. So who's going to pop up to automatically agree with and support this latest then? Of course the low paid will have scads of spare money from their new £7.20 'living' wage to put into this new fund, eh....

This is now not just a race to the bottom - it's a plummet into a slurry pit.

And isn't this what National Insurance is meant to cover??????

I came back to the site to call attention to this article.
Workers already fund their own sick days & unemployment, you damned Tories.
Current generation Tories - I wouldn't expect them to know National Insurance has been in place for decades to cover this.
Even Tories living in the UK pay some tax, I grant you, maybe.
Tip these Tories out on their ear, someone, come on.
No confidence.
In The Spirit of '45, a clip showed Churchill getting heckled off the stage.
It occurs to me that's been lost, with a few exceptions, in contemporary democratic governance.
Churchill knew he was up a tree, left the stage & knew he failed.
Dave fails over & over again.
Get him off the stage & make him take his worthless Tory government with him.
Any decent human being sitting in the Tory party ought to take a long look at themselves.
They're a disgrace to remain in a political party inflicting the policies on to the people.

I've not made it over to check out Labour contention - it hurts.

Let's remember, however, conflict & division between friends, family, political party members & workplace colleagues are a part of life. It's the human condition. We're going to disagree. What's essential it to cooperatively communicate showing fundamental respect for someone as human being. We fairly negotiate our way through conflict.

I don't like the Tory party for reasons I've listed here before. Tory values, ideas & policy are damaging to our country, people & infrastructure. It's not sustainable. I'm concerned.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 2:41 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:I seem to remember lots of products sold as 'employment protection' insurance schemes - they supposedly offered to pay out when people lost their jobs or became sick or had an accident which meant they couldn't work. Didn't they go on to become one of the biggest miss selling scandals of all time??? Not worth the paper they were written on for many people ... The banks we have all bailed out made a lot of money from them ... and then ended up paying massive fines for their disgraceful practices.

Yeah, this is scary stuff, RR2.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 2:50 pm

On the tax credit and social security changes in the budget - here are some facts.

The changes enacted by the coalition ensured that people who could not work the increased hours for WTC lost out; the changes were that most of those claiming WTC before at 16 hours a week had to increase their hours.
Single people had to increase their hours from 16 to 30; couples from 16 to 24 - only disabled people and lone parents could still claim WTC on 16 hours a week. Those unable to increase their hours claimed more in means-tested benefits, eg. Housing Benefit and Income Support.
The income threshold was £6,240 PA, above which WTC was removed at 41 pence per pound of gross pay above that threshold.

Osborne's budget has kept the same hours, but reduced the threshold to £3,650 - this means that WTC is removed on lower incomes than before; as this applies from April 2016, when the new NMW (because that's what it is) becomes £7.20/hour, WTC is not only removed from a larger slice of income it also gets removed at 48 pence per pound of gross pay above the new threshold.

Universal Credit is even worse - the "Working Element" is £2,304 PA if there is no housing support; if there is, it goes up to £4,764 PA.
What this means is that UC claimants who are working have their Working Element removed on even less income than WTC claimants.
If they claim the Housing Element they can get a maximum of £2,460 - £47.30 a week.
They will have to find any rent above £47.30 PW from their other income.

For all claimants of anything - all the main out-of-work benefits will be frozen; the Local Housing Allowance will also be frozen irrespective of rent rises in either the private or public rental sectors; WTC will be less; in time child tax credits will be less; under UC work will pay a lot less; under UC current rents will not be affordable by most who claim the Housing Element; under UC the amount a parent can claim for a disabled child will be halved; self-employed people will not be allowed to claim UC unless they earn above the UC "income floor" and if they do they won't be able to claim much at all; the sanctions system will apply to all UC claimants, working or not; homeowners will even less help than they do now if they lose their jobs or become sick.

This, apparently, is what Harman says Labour should support and/or abstain from. I am disgusted by her, and anyone who agrees with her.

It is the job of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition to oppose - whether the current Opposition chooses to do its' job or not (and shame on them if they won't) it helps a great deal if they have read the small print before they decide to do one or the other.
If Harman knows what this Budget really contains, her behaviour is even more disgraceful than if she didn't; and if she didn't, she has no business proffering an opinion based on ignorance.

Disgusting.

The only candidate who I can now support is Corbyn. Coopers' apparent support for opposing the tax credit chnages is simply not enough, and considering her term in office left us with the WCA and Atos I cannot take any of her pronouncements on benefits seriously. Kendall is a moron and every time she opens her gob she gives the impression of Blair in a frock - say anything to get elected then do the opposite - she's a Tory.
Burnham is still giving me very little confidence, he's all a bit "meh".

I'll vote for Corbyn, despite some of my concerns at some of his allegiances outside British politics. He loses, Labour loses me.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 2:52 pm

Less than a quarter of an hour ago:

...the hashtag #ThisIsACoup was born in Barcelona. It quickly shot to the top of trending lists around the world, including Germany and Greece, sparking a social media backlash against Germany and its finance minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, over the draconian list of demands being forced on the Greek government in return for a third bailout.

These guys meeting now in the Eurogroup, they all have twitter handles, they deserve to be told by the world to do a deal with Tsipras and stop trying to overthrow him,...“#ThisIsACoup may have started in Barcelona, but it resonated around the world because it expressed a common sense of impotence of citizens in the face of globalised financial powers,” they wrote. We decided to support Francesca’s call to launch an online campaign to support the democratic will of the Greek people in the face of extortion by the EuroGroup in its negotiations with Syriza,” the statement continued. The scandalous Eurogroup proposals yesterday made last night the ideal moment to create a hashtag to express and, above all, coordinate, our outrage at the extortion the Greek government and its people were being subject to.”

http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... 11b7559ea1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(my bold)

Good.
Now what.
I'm not trying to be a smart ass.
What do we do now lots of us regular people know the financial sector is corrupt, not democratically accountable & if we're to be citizens & not serfs, what do we do after we send each other messages alerting our friends of what's happening?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 2:55 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:I seem to remember lots of products sold as 'employment protection' insurance schemes - they supposedly offered to pay out when people lost their jobs or became sick or had an accident which meant they couldn't work. Didn't they go on to become one of the biggest miss selling scandals of all time??? Not worth the paper they were written on for many people ... The banks we have all bailed out made a lot of money from them ... and then ended up paying massive fines for their disgraceful practices.

I've mentioned this in the past, rebecca, and have again been prompted to do so in the G today, but my wife and I had insurances for such things, a separate policy for a cash payout depending on severity of injury plus PPI for any credit. I was self-employed with my wife doing most of the bookkeeping and playing mum. When she had the stroke I was employed and she was a housewife earning craft-based pin-money from a hobby (some input from me, which I never charged above material costs). Small print, varying terms of cover dependent on current status meant no payout. One insurer even likened her stroke to mental illness, which wasn't covered (I appreciate the difficulty with underwriting mental health), neither was giving up work to care for a partner covered.

As I said in the G, I was grateful to a civilised country with social security. Firstly the NHS and then DLA and ICA when things became untenable. Cameron and Osborne wish to break the social contract since they can afford to without a care for anyone else. Compassionate Conservatism indeed!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 3:04 pm

In the USA, it's against the law not having private medical insurance coverage - everyone must have medical insurance & when it's paid for, you're sent a card with your name & date of coverage on it. People will be fined if they've not purchased this private company product - medical insurance.

One thing you need to know - having purchased medical insurance doesn't mean you've purchased health care when you need it.
You will be subject to co-payments, exclusions & if you don't have the money to pay for both medical insurance & health care costs in the US, you're liable to become a debtor, you can lose everything you own & end up with a destroyed credit record.

The Supreme Court ruled it didn't violate US laws to require US citizens to purchase a product from a private company or face fines.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 3:10 pm

Tim Jones, economist at the Jubilee Debt Campaign, says this will simply extend the five-year Greek debt crisis for at least another decade.

“At the heart of it is a lie from Eurozone leaders that ‘nominal haircuts on the debt cannot be undertaken’. They can, they should and they must. Sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America suffered from 20 years of economic stagnation and increasing poverty in the 1980s and 1990s because of a refusal to cancel debt and the imposition of austerity overriding democracy. The same now awaits Greece and the Eurozone unless there is a sudden change of direction.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... 11b7559e93" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 3:42 pm

Oh yes, I mentioned small-print, which has some relevance to what гражданка added regarding (Stateside) health insurance. Try getting cover for preexisting conditions, something else I've mentioned in the past. My wife's having approached the doctors for high blood pressure was ostensibly a preexisting condition that contributed toward her stroke. She was pregnant at the time, so nothing unusual there then.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 13 Jul, 2015 3:49 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Tim Jones, economist at the Jubilee Debt Campaign, says this will simply extend the five-year Greek debt crisis for at least another decade.

“At the heart of it is a lie from Eurozone leaders that ‘nominal haircuts on the debt cannot be undertaken’. They can, they should and they must. Sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America suffered from 20 years of economic stagnation and increasing poverty in the 1980s and 1990s because of a refusal to cancel debt and the imposition of austerity overriding democracy. The same now awaits Greece and the Eurozone unless there is a sudden change of direction.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... 11b7559e93" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tim Jones is right.

The examples of what has happened to countries treated in similar fashion are there for all to see - and now Greece must put up £50BN in collateral in order to spend more time under the cosh.
The only good thing about that is that the collateral stays in Greece - until today, it was mooted that it would be administered in Luxembourg by The Institute for Growth.
This "institution" is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the German KfW Bank, the chairman of which is - one Wolfang Schauble.

Greece has spent billions on defence. Much more than is needed by the country. Most of that purchasing bought German goods.
Germany has done very nicely out of the Greek's spending - and now the Germans want Greek property to shore up the loans their banks made to Greece to buy their tanks. Nice.

Next - if Greece can't pay - Santorini becomes Angelarini......