Monday 20th July 2015

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ohsocynical
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by ohsocynical »

HindleA wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... affordable

Lower benefit caps 'will exclude poor families from large parts of England


http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehous ... -it-seems/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The benefit cut that isn’t quite as it seems


http://www.disabilitynow.org.uk/article ... -incentive" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

30 pound cut is No Incentive
Jesus Christ. Where are these poor people going to go? A town like Reading has a huge number of people only just managing at present.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by AngryAsWell »

O'Well ‏@someotherboy · 1m1 minute ago
I'm thinking Miliband couldn't have won because his message was diluted by trying to placate a bag of Blairite shite

How true...
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LadyCentauria
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by LadyCentauria »

rebeccariots2 wrote:Sounds as though Huw Irranca Davies made a really good speech on the Welfare Bill. (from some tweets I've seen)

Was he not someone who might have made a good leadership candidate? He's such a good speaker.
He did. Both my friend (who was visiting and, fortunately, was interested in the debate) and I remarked on it. M asked why he was not standing for the leadership and I had to admit that I had no idea.

I'm disappointed that only around 20% of the PLP voted against, rather than abstaining, according to Newsnight's calculation. The remainder either abstained or were not present.

Edit: to add "and I" to my 2nd sentence, without which it is incomplet...
Last edited by LadyCentauria on Mon 20 Jul, 2015 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Willow904
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by Willow904 »

AngryAsWell wrote:Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn · 9 mins9 minutes ago
124 MPs voted against Welfare Bill - so minus SNP, Libs, Green etc, that's 50+ Labour MPs - close to a quarter - defying party whip. Ouch.
Lots of people attacking Labour btl in the Guardian. Zero people attacking the Tories. It's not that I don't think Harman has made a pig's ear of this, it's just the way Labour has voted/ not voted is being blown out of all proportion ( it was never going to make a difference, let's face it) while the perpetrators of this regressive policy escape criticism. The saddest thing is the glee with which people are announcing this is the end of Labour. I certainly hope not, because one Green, one Ukip and a handful of nationalists will never be capable of throwing the Tories out of power, if Labour's 232 MPs aren't up to it.
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HindleA
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by HindleA »

Government's own impact assessment of benefit cap.


http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ ... ry/SN06294" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by AngryAsWell »

Willow904 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn · 9 mins9 minutes ago
124 MPs voted against Welfare Bill - so minus SNP, Libs, Green etc, that's 50+ Labour MPs - close to a quarter - defying party whip. Ouch.
Lots of people attacking Labour btl in the Guardian. Zero people attacking the Tories. It's not that I don't think Harman has made a pig's ear of this, it's just the way Labour has voted/ not voted is being blown out of all proportion ( it was never going to make a difference, let's face it) while the perpetrators of this regressive policy escape criticism. The saddest thing is the glee with which people are announcing this is the end of Labour. I certainly hope not, because one Green, one Ukip and a handful of nationalists will never be capable of throwing the Tories out of power, if Labour's 232 MPs aren't up to it.
Not added up the figures but even the DUP voted against, if Labour had voted No then could it have made a difference? Maybe.
Anyway it has the 2nd & 3rd reading to get through now.
Thing is, this was a test to make a stand on - Labour just failed the test and made the new leaders job that much harder. :(
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by AngryAsWell »

Education minister left open-mouthed after tirade from adviser over free meals plan

http://schoolsimprovement.net/education ... meals-plan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pk1
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by pk1 »

Willow904 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn · 9 mins9 minutes ago
124 MPs voted against Welfare Bill - so minus SNP, Libs, Green etc, that's 50+ Labour MPs - close to a quarter - defying party whip. Ouch.
Lots of people attacking Labour btl in the Guardian. Zero people attacking the Tories. It's not that I don't think Harman has made a pig's ear of this, it's just the way Labour has voted/ not voted is being blown out of all proportion ( it was never going to make a difference, let's face it) while the perpetrators of this regressive policy escape criticism. The saddest thing is the glee with which people are announcing this is the end of Labour. I certainly hope not, because one Green, one Ukip and a handful of nationalists will never be capable of throwing the Tories out of power, if Labour's 232 MPs aren't up to it.
I haven't posted here for ages because it's gone a bit too far left for my taste but your comment is the most sensible I've seen on this topic. To blame Labour while ignoring the party that is enacting this policy is too bloody easy and every single Labour supporter that joins in in ignoring the Tories so as to kick Labour is as guilty as Osborne !

Still, there's none as daft as folk..... :toss:
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by AngryAsWell »

48 MPs break whip to vote against welfare bill – full list

http://labourlist.org/2015/07/48-mps-br ... full-list/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Willow904
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by Willow904 »

AngryAsWell wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn · 9 mins9 minutes ago
124 MPs voted against Welfare Bill - so minus SNP, Libs, Green etc, that's 50+ Labour MPs - close to a quarter - defying party whip. Ouch.
Lots of people attacking Labour btl in the Guardian. Zero people attacking the Tories. It's not that I don't think Harman has made a pig's ear of this, it's just the way Labour has voted/ not voted is being blown out of all proportion ( it was never going to make a difference, let's face it) while the perpetrators of this regressive policy escape criticism. The saddest thing is the glee with which people are announcing this is the end of Labour. I certainly hope not, because one Green, one Ukip and a handful of nationalists will never be capable of throwing the Tories out of power, if Labour's 232 MPs aren't up to it.
Not added up the figures but even the DUP voted against, if Labour had voted No then could it have made a difference? Maybe.
Anyway it has the 2nd & 3rd reading to get through now.
Thing is, this was a test to make a stand on - Labour just failed the test and made the new leaders job that much harder. :(
At least they didn't vote for it. There would have been no chance of recovering from that. And a lot of people do support these welfare reforms. The job Labour have ahead is one of getting across why these reforms are wrong, how they simply shift the welfare burden onto local councils and how the Tories have lied about the people on ESA they are taking money from (a part of the bill everyone in Labour are in agreement in opposing, so shouldn't be hard to put across a consistent message). Still a shambles, I think Harman made the wrong choice, but hopefully whoever becomes leader will be able to recover from it.
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AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Harman basically offered no reason for not opposing this other than "the Tories won the election and welfare cuts are popular" :roll:

She fully deserves the flak that has come her way - the silver lining is that she has made *such* a mess of it that the next leader can shrug it off if they are smart.

Here's hoping......
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pk1
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by pk1 »

AngryAsWell wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn · 9 mins9 minutes ago
124 MPs voted against Welfare Bill - so minus SNP, Libs, Green etc, that's 50+ Labour MPs - close to a quarter - defying party whip. Ouch.
Lots of people attacking Labour btl in the Guardian. Zero people attacking the Tories. It's not that I don't think Harman has made a pig's ear of this, it's just the way Labour has voted/ not voted is being blown out of all proportion ( it was never going to make a difference, let's face it) while the perpetrators of this regressive policy escape criticism. The saddest thing is the glee with which people are announcing this is the end of Labour. I certainly hope not, because one Green, one Ukip and a handful of nationalists will never be capable of throwing the Tories out of power, if Labour's 232 MPs aren't up to it.
Not added up the figures but even the DUP voted against, if Labour had voted No then could it have made a difference? Maybe.
Anyway it has the 2nd & 3rd reading to get through now.
Thing is, this was a test to make a stand on - Labour just failed the test and made the new leaders job that much harder. :(
The govt has a majority so it's only if a Tory contingent voted against or abstained that the opposition could have defeated it.

Committee stage is where it matters, not tonight.
ohsocynical
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by ohsocynical »

PorFavor wrote:Goodnight, everyone.
Night PF :)
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Hi there pk1 - rest assured not all of us on this site are now cheerleaders for Jezza :)

(though I fully understand why he is winning the support he is on here and elsewhere)

Would be nice to see you posting more again (I've noticed we don't hear much from yahyah these days either.....)
Last edited by AnatolyKasparov on Mon 20 Jul, 2015 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by AngryAsWell »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Harman basically offered no reason for not opposing this other than "the Tories won the election and welfare cuts are popular" :roll:

She fully deserves the flak that has come her way - the silver lining is that she has made *such* a mess of it that the next leader can shrug it off if they are smart.

Here's hoping......
The new leader - who ever it is - should also have votes against, makes no difference to their position as (said earlier) the election is only a few days after the common re sits. Abstaining makes their position so much harder.
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

pk1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn · 9 mins9 minutes ago
124 MPs voted against Welfare Bill - so minus SNP, Libs, Green etc, that's 50+ Labour MPs - close to a quarter - defying party whip. Ouch.
Lots of people attacking Labour btl in the Guardian. Zero people attacking the Tories. It's not that I don't think Harman has made a pig's ear of this, it's just the way Labour has voted/ not voted is being blown out of all proportion ( it was never going to make a difference, let's face it) while the perpetrators of this regressive policy escape criticism. The saddest thing is the glee with which people are announcing this is the end of Labour. I certainly hope not, because one Green, one Ukip and a handful of nationalists will never be capable of throwing the Tories out of power, if Labour's 232 MPs aren't up to it.
I haven't posted here for ages because it's gone a bit too far left for my taste but your comment is the most sensible I've seen on this topic. To blame Labour while ignoring the party that is enacting this policy is too bloody easy and every single Labour supporter that joins in in ignoring the Tories so as to kick Labour is as guilty as Osborne !

Still, there's none as daft as folk..... :toss:
Hello PK - good to hear from you - have been wondering what had kept you away. I think there's a fair few of us that are just in a state of shock at what is happening and don't quite know what will be the best way forward. My primary blame for this debacle is with Harman - mainly because I simply don't understand why she needed to come out with such a position before consulting properly with others - it is all so unnecessary. Yes, of course the real villains are the Tories. I don't think any of us are in any doubt re that. But Labour knows about the game playing and set ups by Osborne and the Tories by now ... they / we shouldn't need to fall into the trap and spin about. I'm trying very hard to keep some kind of personal balance about it all - not decide who to back until more things fall into place for me or label candidates without a bit of investigation - not react too quickly to things that severely disappoint me about Labour positioning. But those of us that care enough also need to be able to say when Labour is disappointing.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by RogerOThornhill »

AngryAsWell wrote:Education minister left open-mouthed after tirade from adviser over free meals plan

http://schoolsimprovement.net/education ... meals-plan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
At the end
Mischievous gossip or does it suggest the knives might be out for universal free school meals?
That has been suggested. It came up in the HoC today.
Dr Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab):
Apparently, the Minister has questioned the value of free school meals for young children. Has he read the excellent evaluation of the universal free school meals pilot in County Durham, and if not, shall I send him a copy?

Mr Gyimah:
I believe the hon. Lady is referring to an article in The Mail on Sunday. May I say that the incident in question, to go back to my own school meal days, is just a mere trifle? We are absolutely committed to free school meals, as she can see in our manifesto.
Quite carefully worded - note that he didn't say "we are absolutely committed to universal free school meals".
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by HindleA »

Pk1 with much respect.I am as moderate as they come.Part of their own amendment specifically stated support for a particularly nasty,spiteful and falsely economic change that predominately will effect the long term sick/disabled and carers.Misanthropy is misanthropy where ever it emanates,I will call them out on it.Not a left/right issue but basic decency.Ignoring their support would be wrong.
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citizenJA
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by citizenJA »

DEVELOPMENT (LOAN GUARANTEES AND GRANTS) [MONEY].
HC Debate
16 July 1929


Mr. A. BEVAN
In regard to the complaints made from the opposite benches about the absence of a Treasury representative, I would like to point out that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had been absent almost all the time, immediately after making his own speech. The complaint was that the burden of resistance to the Opposition fell on the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, but the burden of the Opposition falls on the right hon. Gentleman opposite.

I would not have intervened in this Debate, as this is my first effort, were it not for the fact that we have listened to some very extraordinary speeches from the benches opposite, and I think it is necessary to point out that this is the first example of what we are to expect...

In the beginning, we were informed that the first time we attempted any application of Socialist principles, our day would end.

The late Chancellor of the Exchequer says that we are bound to fail, and that the schemes submitted are inadequate. All he can say is that he hopes that they will succeed, because if they are not adequate to solve unemployment, we shall, of course, have to go before the country and say that it is impossible to solve any of these problems within the ambit of private enterprise, and that before they can be properly tackled, the country will have to supply Parliament with a Socialist majority to apply Socialist principles.

...the party which the ex-Chancellor represents, and the economic interests which he so ably represents in this House, hope that the schemes that will be submitted will be found adequate to solve unemployment. Otherwise, all other remedies having been tried, we shall have to ask the country for a mandate to apply Socialist principles.

Even if these scheme; should prove inadequate to solve unemployment within the limitations of the strict orthodox economic creed as laid down by the experts of the Treasury, we would like to point out that if governmental action will not make any inroads upon the volume of the unemployed, it appears necessarily to follow that, until private enterprise can be sufficiently recuperative to solve the problem, we shall have to carry this burden of unemployment.

If that be so, then, within the limitations of the economic creed laid down by the right hon. Gentleman, all we can ask is that as large a proportion of the national income as possible shall be distributed among the people, so that: they shall be protected from the distress for which the right hon. Gentleman admits they are not responsible. It will be necessary, therefore, for us to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to supply funds out of the private purses of the friends of the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer for the purpose of relieving the distress arising from the problem which the right hon. Gentleman says cannot be solved within the circumference of private enterprise.

The Lord Privy Seal must find it very difficult to answer satisfactorily the criticisms from both sides of the Opposition. On one side the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer says that these schemes are negligible and will have no effect.

§Mr. CHURCHILL
I said that the effect would be negligible.

§Mr. BEVAN
The right hon. Gentleman said the schemes themselves are negligible as remedies for unemployment, which is about the same thing. But if the function of the schemes is to solve unemployment, and the schemes do not solve unemployment, then as means to solving unemployment they are negligible, are they not I. That is exactly what the ex-Chancellor said.

We on this side of the Committee are sympathetic to the Lord Privy Seal in the difficult task which he has to perform, and we can assure him that behind him is a vast volume of support; and if right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen opposite want to consolidate the back benches on this side, they have only to repeat a few of the exhibitions of bad temper and disorder which we have seen this evening.

I submit, therefore, that the only steps that can be taken are being taken to meet this very difficult problem. Speaking as one with some experience of local authorities, we have had during the last two years great difficulty in obtaining any grants for schemes from the late Government. We submitted quite a large number of schemes, arid the answer we always received was that our area was a distressed area, and consequently that we could have no grant. That is our experience in Monmouthshire and Glamorgan.

The Lord Privy Seal is taunted because with his prescience and foresight he intends to induce new industries to be set up in those distressed areas. Is there anything wrong in that proposal? Is there anything to which to object I What hon. Members opposite really want is that private enterprise shall set up new industries where it likes in any part of the country, and that the poor people shall migrate to those industries, and have to put up with the bad housing conditions that would exist.


I hope that the Members of the Liberal benches will realise that the public will judge them exactly by the extent to which they support the schemes of the Lord Privy Seal. We of course anticipate trouble while we are tackling the problem, and expect that every means of Parliamentary obstruction will be used to make the task more difficult.

But that will not serve to convince the country that Parliamentary tactics are the most important things in this regard. When we have the opportunity of making our report to the country, we shall claim that we have had our eyes on the needs of the people, and not on the acrobatics of Parliamentary tactics.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/comm ... 16_HOC_447" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Aneurin Bevan
Labour MP for Ebbw Vale
first contribution to the House of Commons
16 July 1929
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Tommy Sheppard MPVerified account
‏@TommySheppard
So just to be clear - Tories had 308 for their welfare bill. If Labour had all voted against Govt it would have been defeated #welfarebill

Iain Martin ‏@iainmartin1 7m7 minutes ago
Iain Martin retweeted Tommy Sheppard MP
But that's simply not true @TommySheppard is it? There was pairing tonight wasn't there?

Iain Martin ‏@iainmartin1 5m5 minutes ago
Unbelievable brazen nature of SNP lines on stuff such as welfare bill. They know there was pairing? They must do. Wrong or peddling untruth
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citizenJA
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by citizenJA »

pk1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn · 9 mins9 minutes ago
124 MPs voted against Welfare Bill - so minus SNP, Libs, Green etc, that's 50+ Labour MPs - close to a quarter - defying party whip. Ouch.
Lots of people attacking Labour btl in the Guardian. Zero people attacking the Tories. It's not that I don't think Harman has made a pig's ear of this, it's just the way Labour has voted/ not voted is being blown out of all proportion ( it was never going to make a difference, let's face it) while the perpetrators of this regressive policy escape criticism. The saddest thing is the glee with which people are announcing this is the end of Labour. I certainly hope not, because one Green, one Ukip and a handful of nationalists will never be capable of throwing the Tories out of power, if Labour's 232 MPs aren't up to it.
I haven't posted here for ages because it's gone a bit too far left for my taste but your comment is the most sensible I've seen on this topic. To blame Labour while ignoring the party that is enacting this policy is too bloody easy and every single Labour supporter that joins in in ignoring the Tories so as to kick Labour is as guilty as Osborne !

Still, there's none as daft as folk..... :toss:
Well said, I agree.
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citizenJA
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by citizenJA »

Two world wars were fought after Nye Bevan's first Parliamentary speech about socialism, unemployment, failure of the private sector to provide jobs, adequate housing & social security provision.

A tri-party House of MPs on a July night quarrelling, Tories terrified non-Tories might end up with real employment or a meaningful life with a roof over their heads, a Labour party unafraid of being socialists & Liberals terrified of being thought socialists
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by ohsocynical »

Willow904 wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
Willow904 wrote: Lots of people attacking Labour btl in the Guardian. Zero people attacking the Tories. It's not that I don't think Harman has made a pig's ear of this, it's just the way Labour has voted/ not voted is being blown out of all proportion ( it was never going to make a difference, let's face it) while the perpetrators of this regressive policy escape criticism. The saddest thing is the glee with which people are announcing this is the end of Labour. I certainly hope not, because one Green, one Ukip and a handful of nationalists will never be capable of throwing the Tories out of power, if Labour's 232 MPs aren't up to it.
Not added up the figures but even the DUP voted against, if Labour had voted No then could it have made a difference? Maybe.
Anyway it has the 2nd & 3rd reading to get through now.
Thing is, this was a test to make a stand on - Labour just failed the test and made the new leaders job that much harder. :(
At least they didn't vote for it. There would have been no chance of recovering from that. And a lot of people do support these welfare reforms. The job Labour have ahead is one of getting across why these reforms are wrong, how they simply shift the welfare burden onto local councils and how the Tories have lied about the people on ESA they are taking money from (a part of the bill everyone in Labour are in agreement in opposing, so shouldn't be hard to put across a consistent message). Still a shambles, I think Harman made the wrong choice, but hopefully whoever becomes leader will be able to recover from it.
My council has avoided raising the council tax for the last five years, but are now threatening they'll have to put it up...And then local people will be pissing and moaning about reduced facilities, and higher council tax subsidising benefit scroungers and it'll become even more personal....
It's never ending.
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Harman basically offered no reason for not opposing this other than "the Tories won the election and welfare cuts are popular" :roll:

She fully deserves the flak that has come her way - the silver lining is that she has made *such* a mess of it that the next leader can shrug it off if they are smart.

Here's hoping......
I hope the next leader nails Harman to the wall for this.

We are the Labour party for Gods sake. If you don't want to oppose stuff like this piss off and join the Tories. She is a shambles, ideally she should resign and hand the leadership over to a tub of lard, they will do a better job.
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by LadyCentauria »

Good to see @pk1 posting again :clap:

Thanks for all the links, everyone. I'm slowly working my way through them but was particularly glad to see that Isabel Hardman has taken this on board:
So 61 per cent of the claimants in the ESA WRAG benefit may well, as Osborne points out, want to work, but the main barrier to them doing so is not financial or to do with the amount of training they receive. The barrier to those people who want to work going into work is that they are too ill to work.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehous ... -it-seems/
^ That's one of the articles @HindleA linked to - and which @Ohso (amongst others) made comment upon.

I note, also in the Spectator, that Farridge has been outvoted by his party's NEC and Carswell will claim Short Money. Farridge, remember, had first wanted his MP to claim all £670,000 of it (maximum for a small party) but Carswell said only a modest part of that. Farridge then petulated on telly that, in that case, "we'll take none of it!" So, now that they are going to take some of it, they've set up a limited company to provide 'Parliamentary Services' for UKIP, with (so far) 2 senior directors appointed (undisclosed salaries will come from Short Money claim.) Carswell has advertised for his first employee: £60,000 per annum for - wait for it - a Speechwriter! Any takers? ;)
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by LadyCentauria »

The BBC report that the new Petitions website has launched, enabling the public to petition MPs:
The petition.parliament.uk site is designed to help people get issues on the political agenda and open up a "new dialogue" with MPs and ministers.
E-petitions will initially be considered by a cross-party committee of MPs chaired by Labour's Helen Jones.
The first e-petition tabled called for increased taxes on foreigners buying UK property worth more than £3.5m.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33599604
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by LadyCentauria »

And some rather sad news. According to the European Space Agency's Rosetta Mission, Philae has fallen silent. They were last able to make contact with it on July 9th and all efforts to contact it, since then, have failed. In my view (as a total amateur) there is very little chance indeed that Philae could survive Comet 67P's closest approach around the Sun, which is due quite soon, let alone survive in good enough condition to resume transmissions post-perihelion. However, being of a nature somewhere between Pippi Longstocking and Pollyanna, I choose to retain a wishful hope that all is not over for Philae...
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This time, I'm gonna be stronger I'm not giving in...
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LadyCentauria
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Re: Monday 20th July 2015

Post by LadyCentauria »

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Harman basically offered no reason for not opposing this other than "the Tories won the election and welfare cuts are popular" :roll:

She fully deserves the flak that has come her way - the silver lining is that she has made *such* a mess of it that the next leader can shrug it off if they are smart.

Here's hoping......
I hope the next leader nails Harman to the wall for this.

We are the Labour party for Gods sake. If you don't want to oppose stuff like this piss off and join the Tories. She is a shambles, ideally she should resign and hand the leadership over to a tub of lard, they will do a better job.
Strongly seconded!
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This time, I'm gonna be stronger I'm not giving in...
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