Monday 27th July 2015

Post by **refitman** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 7:10 am

Morning all.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 9:28 am

Morning all.

Just catching up with yesterday, many thanks for all the quality posts, discussions and links.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 9:44 am

Morning all.

Listening to a profile of Clare Short on Radio 4. It's a good listen and, I would say, pretty timely.

As I write she's saying that she thinks politics in the UK has really changed and we need a change of electoral system so that there is pluralised party representation of the left rather than a single big party being run by the likes of Blair and needing to cosy up to Murdoch and co.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 10:30 am

So according to the chair of Progress, Burnham and Cooper are "Corbyn-lite"......

What other pearls of genius are that bunch of clowns going to treat us to before this ordeal is finally over??

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 10:45 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:So according to the chair of Progress, Burnham and Cooper are "Corbyn-lite"......

What other pearls of genius are that bunch of clowns going to treat us to before this ordeal is finally over??

I have visions of Ernst having to be physically restrained when he reads stuff like that! His favourite organisation.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 10:47 am

TaxPayers' Alliance ‏@the_tpa 39m39 minutes ago
The Legal Aid "cuts" are costing the taxpayer more than they've saved http://www.conservativehome.com/platfor ... -save.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 11:06 am

HuffPost UK Comedy ‏@HuffPostUKCom 37m37 minutes ago
Jeremy Hunt trolled by tuba player on constituency visit http://huff.to/1U1Oyim" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Has a little video of the said tuba trolling. Perfect for a rainy morning.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 11:08 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:So according to the chair of Progress, Burnham and Cooper are "Corbyn-lite"......

What other pearls of genius are that bunch of clowns going to treat us to before this ordeal is finally over??
I have visions of Ernst having to be physically restrained when he reads stuff like that! His favourite organisation.

I doubt whether he regularly buys the ~~Daily Liz~~ Times (which is, amazingly, where said piece appeared) or indeed opts to go behind Rupe's paywall

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 11:23 am

Morning all.

Interesting article/interview with one of the Regional Commissioners on his year and what lies ahead.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/education/t ... _1_4169553

I find this slightly disturbing given that they are being given new powers to stick their noses into LA maintained schools as well.

He expects the most movement to come in the primary sector, where he has seen a “complete mood swing” since the election.

He said: “We are setting up meetings for the autumn term when I would be very surprised if we don’t get some primary heads and chairmen coming forward to say ‘we would love to know about setting up multi-academy trusts’.”

What about highly-rated schools that have decided not to become academies, such as Aylsham High and Thorpe St Andrew School?

Dr Coulson said: “I’ll be knocking on their door” – but the decision would be entirely theirs.

Sorry, but why would you even do that - if their doing their job then what business is it of yours? Not even LAs do that - in fact when we got called in after our schools went down to Satisfactory (we're now back to Good and our LA rates us internally as Outstanding), we were asked whether we knew what to do to turn it round, told to go away and get on with it...which we did.

I liked this bit...

He said the new wave of sponsors will be different to the most familiar current sponsors – such as Ormiston, ATT, TEN and the Inspiration Trust, some of whom “were a bit brash, upset the apple cart a bit” – and aimed to be consensual, building on existing links with local primaries.

Yeah, that'll be Ms De Souza...

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 11:29 am

Jane Merrick retweeted
Jenny Colgan ‏@jennycolgan 26m26 minutes ago
Lord Sewell obviously got his bra fitted by the same woman in John Lewis who did me.

(Every time I see *that* picture I think of Ohso and her robust advice on seeing David Cameron in his wet jogging top and then - horror - topless in Minnie Mouse towel - that he should get himself a well fitting support bra.)

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 11:57 am

Ironic headline of the year must belong to Dominic Lawson's take on the Lord Sowel affair.

DOMINIC LAWSON: The peer who thinks he's Steve Coogan has dealt democracy a terrible blow

Democracy? House of Lords? Right...

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 12:11 pm

Actually. one good thing about the above is that the press may be take a very dim view of any idea that Cameron has of increasing the number of peers...

I found a HoL library note on the size of the Lords.

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ ... N-2014-045" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Appendix 2 shows how the number of peers has crept back up again over the years since the numbers of hereditary peers was restricted back in the late 1990s.

1998–99......1210
1999–00........690

2014-15........791

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 12:17 pm

UK factory orders index hits two-year low, export outlook gloomy - CBI

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/2 ... 0J20150727" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 12:23 pm

Hard-left plot to elect Corbyn Labour leader? The numbers don’t add up

http://leftfootforward.org/2015/07/hard ... nt-add-up/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 12:51 pm

Andy Burnham ‏@andyburnhammp 44m44 minutes ago
On behalf of the 196,000 people who have no confidence in @Jeremy_Hunt, I will apply for debate when House returns > http://mirr.im/1SJsff1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The battle between consultants, NHS workers and Jeremy Hunt seems to be escalating.

I haven't seen the government's 'trite' reply that this article refers to. But I'm guessing it's in the same figgling guff and denial style so well used by Cameron, IDS, Osborne and others.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 12:53 pm

Ed Miliband: ‘My Doncaster priorities are jobs and education’’

http://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/new ... -1-7378065" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

onebuttonmonkey · Post by **onebuttonmonkey** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 1:10 pm

Afternoon, all. I've kept a low profile since the election - not only has it been A Funny Few Months, but also The Other Place was over-run with gloating and nonsense. Also, I know my own shouting from and about the left has not always been the same as consensus-building. I'll mouth off about Kendall on Twitter, but it's not the same as constructive, so I've kept it away from here.

Those who know me - and my frequent ranting - will be unsurprised to hear: (a) I've been exercised in all sorts of ways by the Labour leadership election and how glum an experience it is, and (b) I've ended up on the left talking about opposition and principles and Corbyn. I didn't start out intending to vote for him and, equally, I don't really want to barge in and rehash that here, but I did want to share the thing I ended up writing: it's not a rant so much as a lament and a plea. It's about what it's been like to have rejoined Labour, my experience of a "New Members' Social" and some reflections on our past and our future.

http://onebuttonmonkey.com/obm/2015/7/2 ... ahead.html

I'd be interested in how it marries with other people's experience - after all, the leadership election is, at its best, a conversation. Hopefully you'll be interested enough in my ramblings about it to excuse my indulgence in posting it here.

Hope you're all well. Here's to the future of the left...

Edit: because apparently I can't spell "it's"

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 2:28 pm

onebuttonmonkey wrote:Afternoon, all. I've kept a low profile since the election - not only has it been A Funny Few Months, but also The Other Place was over-run with gloating and nonsense. Also, I know my own shouting from and about the left has not always been the same as consensus-building. I'll mouth off about Kendall on Twitter, but it's not the same as constructive, so I've kept it away from here.

Those who know me - and my frequent ranting - will be unsurprised to hear: (a) I've been exercised in all sorts of ways by the Labour leadership election and how glum an experience it is, and (b) I've ended up on the left talking about opposition and principles and Corbyn. I didn't start out intending to vote for him and, equally, I don't really want to barge in and rehash that here, but I did want to share the thing I ended up writing: it's not a rant so much as a lament and a plea. It's about what it's been like to have rejoined Labour, my experience of a "New Members' Social" and some reflections on our past and our future.

http://onebuttonmonkey.com/obm/2015/7/2 ... ahead.html

I'd be interested in how it marries with other people's experience - after all, the leadership election is, at its best, a conversation. Hopefully you'll be interested enough in my ramblings about it to excuse my indulgence in posting it here.

Hope you're all well. Here's to the future of the left...

Edit: because apparently I can't spell "it's"

Thanks for the link to your piece.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the Corbyn line. However, I don't think he can win an election (and, no, that's not the be all and end all, I recognise). It's not the message - it's him I don't really gel with. Admittedly the other two (I've obviously already discounted the third) are pretty tepid, too. If I thought that Jeremy Corbyn had a successor waiting in the wings (he's a bit vague on his own hanging about), I might be more enthused.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 2:38 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Andy Burnham ‏@andyburnhammp 44m44 minutes ago
On behalf of the 196,000 people who have no confidence in @Jeremy_Hunt, I will apply for debate when House returns > http://mirr.im/1SJsff1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The battle between consultants, NHS workers and Jeremy Hunt seems to be escalating.

I haven't seen the government's 'trite' reply that this article refers to. But I'm guessing it's in the same figgling guff and denial style so well used by Cameron, IDS, Osborne and others.

The 'reply' is staggeringly ignorant ! Here's the link to the petition & the 'reply' to it:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/104334" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

onebuttonmonkey · Post by **onebuttonmonkey** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 2:50 pm

PorFavor wrote:
onebuttonmonkey wrote:Afternoon, all. I've kept a low profile since the election - not only has it been A Funny Few Months, but also The Other Place was over-run with gloating and nonsense. Also, I know my own shouting from and about the left has not always been the same as consensus-building. I'll mouth off about Kendall on Twitter, but it's not the same as constructive, so I've kept it away from here.

Those who know me - and my frequent ranting - will be unsurprised to hear: (a) I've been exercised in all sorts of ways by the Labour leadership election and how glum an experience it is, and (b) I've ended up on the left talking about opposition and principles and Corbyn. I didn't start out intending to vote for him and, equally, I don't really want to barge in and rehash that here, but I did want to share the thing I ended up writing: it's not a rant so much as a lament and a plea. It's about what it's been like to have rejoined Labour, my experience of a "New Members' Social" and some reflections on our past and our future.

http://onebuttonmonkey.com/obm/2015/7/2 ... ahead.html

I'd be interested in how it marries with other people's experience - after all, the leadership election is, at its best, a conversation. Hopefully you'll be interested enough in my ramblings about it to excuse my indulgence in posting it here.

Hope you're all well. Here's to the future of the left...

Edit: because apparently I can't spell "it's"
Thanks for the link to your piece.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the Corbyn line. However, I don't think he can win an election (and, no, that's not the be all and end all, I recognise). It's not the message - it's him I don't really gel with. Admittedly the other two (I've obviously already discounted the third) are pretty tepid, too. If I thought that Jeremy Corbyn had a successor waiting in the wings (he's a bit vague on his own hanging about), I might be more enthused.

I get that he's not everyone's cup of tea - what is it about him you dislike?

For me, I started thinking that I was glad he was on the ballot and that was as far as it went - I've always been of that side of things, but i also absolutely recognise the need to compromise. As things have progressed (the indistinguishability of the other candidates, the lack of positives or hope or alternatives, the "don't like that principle? I have another!" of Burnham, the taint of smear and snideness and the record of Cooper, the oh-I-don't-even-know of Kendall, the "I'm not working with him" strops and *that* absention - or the failure to present and articulate a line about abstaining) I've ended up becoming someone who can't vote for any of the others. I don't know about the electability, Corbyn will probably not win the leadership race, but is his kind of politics what we need? I think so.

The interview with Marr yesterday was fantastic - it almost looked like adult politics. It stood out simply for the straightforward and clear way he was prepared to say what and why. No wonder he is having so much reaction. I just wish the other candidates would try and win an argument with him rather than saying he will be a disaster...

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 3:01 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Actually. one good thing about the above is that the press may be take a very dim view of any idea that Cameron has of increasing the number of peers...

I found a HoL library note on the size of the Lords.

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ ... N-2014-045" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Appendix 2 shows how the number of peers has crept back up again over the years since the numbers of hereditary peers was restricted back in the late 1990s.

1998–99......1210
1999–00........690

2014-15........791

Cutting the cost of politics!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 3:02 pm

According to a newspaper column written by his wife, Sarah Vine, the Justice Secretary was unable to get treatment for a 'possible fractured foot'.
While the radiology department his nearest health centre - which is run by a private company - is closed on weekends, an NHS run hospital just a mile further away offers X-rays day and night.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/m ... urn false;

Check out the book he was reading in one of the photos.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 3:09 pm

Denise M R ‏@DDRey 27 mins27 minutes ago

Lord Sewel thinks Cameron is a crap Prime Minister and Boris Johnson is a public school twit. I don't care about the bra. I like this guy.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 3:20 pm

Downsides of Corbyn?

He has some views on foreign policy which I genuinely find somewhat simplistic (if well intentioned in most cases)

How could he form a shadow cabinet? Or tame a generally discontented PLP? (that is by no means all his fault btw, but still a real thing)

Complete lack of front bench experience himself (does that matter? It might)

He was born in 1949 (like it or not, that is not insignificant in a very youth orientated and often ageist society)

Does he actually *really* want the job?? (he doesn't convince me he does, and that is a bit of a deal breaker personally)

Some past mis-steps on social media that will inevitably be exploited (that rather crass tweet after Galloway won Bradford W, for example)

Homeopathy - nuff said

What is his "hinterland" outside politics, if any (I don't know what he does in his spare time, not even what football team he "supports")

He *has* said that his favourite song is "Imagine". Perhaps that is the biggest black mark against him so far tbh

onebuttonmonkey · Post by **onebuttonmonkey** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 3:26 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Downsides of Corbyn?

He has some views on foreign policy which I genuinely find somewhat simplistic (if well intentioned in most cases)

How could he form a shadow cabinet? Or tame a generally discontented PLP? (that is by no means all his fault btw, but still a real thing)

Complete lack of front bench experience himself (does that matter? It might)

He was born in 1949 (like it or not, that is not insignificant in a very youth orientated and often ageist society)

Does he actually *really* want the job?? (he doesn't convince me he does, and that is a bit of a deal breaker personally)

Some past mis-steps on social media that will inevitably be exploited (that rather crass tweet after Galloway won Bradford W, for example)

Homeopathy - nuff said

What is his "hinterland" outside politics, if any (I don't know what he does in his spare time, not even what football team he "supports")

He *has* said that his favourite song is "Imagine". Perhaps that is the biggest black mark against him so far tbh

Yeah. the homeopathy stuff is saddening in the extreme, but Imagine is pretty much unforgiveable. I suppose it's better than someone like Cameron pretending to like the Smiths. But all the same: that song makes my ears want to do a sick (and I say that as someone who thinks Rubber Soul and Revolver are two of the greatest albums of the 60s).

The comments in the interview yesterday - about a leader helping to provide opinions rather than everything are interesting; it shows he says he wants to build a party around direction. But that is difficult to imagine and even more difficult given those queueing up to distance themselves from the possibility of working with him (they blame him for their division, of course).

And as for whether he really wants the job? Well, here's three reasons why people who really want to be The Leader really should be disqualified from the job:

1) Tony Blair
2) George Osborne
3) Gary Glitter.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 3:38 pm

onebuttonmonkey wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
onebuttonmonkey wrote:Afternoon, all. I've kept a low profile since the election - not only has it been A Funny Few Months, but also The Other Place was over-run with gloating and nonsense. Also, I know my own shouting from and about the left has not always been the same as consensus-building. I'll mouth off about Kendall on Twitter, but it's not the same as constructive, so I've kept it away from here.

Those who know me - and my frequent ranting - will be unsurprised to hear: (a) I've been exercised in all sorts of ways by the Labour leadership election and how glum an experience it is, and (b) I've ended up on the left talking about opposition and principles and Corbyn. I didn't start out intending to vote for him and, equally, I don't really want to barge in and rehash that here, but I did want to share the thing I ended up writing: it's not a rant so much as a lament and a plea. It's about what it's been like to have rejoined Labour, my experience of a "New Members' Social" and some reflections on our past and our future.

http://onebuttonmonkey.com/obm/2015/7/2 ... ahead.html

I'd be interested in how it marries with other people's experience - after all, the leadership election is, at its best, a conversation. Hopefully you'll be interested enough in my ramblings about it to excuse my indulgence in posting it here.

Hope you're all well. Here's to the future of the left...

Edit: because apparently I can't spell "it's"
Thanks for the link to your piece.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the Corbyn line. However, I don't think he can win an election (and, no, that's not the be all and end all, I recognise). It's not the message - it's him I don't really gel with. Admittedly the other two (I've obviously already discounted the third) are pretty tepid, too. If I thought that Jeremy Corbyn had a successor waiting in the wings (he's a bit vague on his own hanging about), I might be more enthused.
I get that he's not everyone's cup of tea - what is it about him you dislike?

For me, I started thinking that I was glad he was on the ballot and that was as far as it went - I've always been of that side of things, but i also absolutely recognise the need to compromise. As things have progressed (the indistinguishability of the other candidates, the lack of positives or hope or alternatives, the "don't like that principle? I have another!" of Burnham, the taint of smear and snideness and the record of Cooper, the oh-I-don't-even-know of Kendall, the "I'm not working with him" strops and *that* absention - or the failure to present and articulate a line about abstaining) I've ended up becoming someone who can't vote for any of the others. I don't know about the electability, Corbyn will probably not win the leadership race, but is his kind of politics what we need? I think so.

The interview with Marr yesterday was fantastic - it almost looked like adult politics. It stood out simply for the straightforward and clear way he was prepared to say what and why. No wonder he is having so much reaction. I just wish the other candidates would try and win an argument with him rather than saying he will be a disaster...

Whilst trying to compose a coherent answer to your question I rambled through subsequent posts. Imagine?

Blimey. That should be enough for anyone.

However - I think it's that he has too many loose ends (eg the EU), and I'm not entirely happy about some of his back catalogue. He's not clear on what his overall "gameplan"is and he comes across as strangely detached and aloof. There's a touch of the "History Man" about him (odd, I know, and I can't quite explain it) which I find more than a tad off-putting.

Edited to get some of my post out of yours!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 3:51 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Interesting article/interview with one of the Regional Commissioners on his year and what lies ahead.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/education/t ... _1_4169553

I find this slightly disturbing given that they are being given new powers to stick their noses into LA maintained schools as well.

He expects the most movement to come in the primary sector, where he has seen a “complete mood swing” since the election.

He said: “We are setting up meetings for the autumn term when I would be very surprised if we don’t get some primary heads and chairmen coming forward to say ‘we would love to know about setting up multi-academy trusts’.”

What about highly-rated schools that have decided not to become academies, such as Aylsham High and Thorpe St Andrew School?

Dr Coulson said: “I’ll be knocking on their door” – but the decision would be entirely theirs.
Sorry, but why would you even do that - if their doing their job then what business is it of yours? Not even LAs do that - in fact when we got called in after our schools went down to Satisfactory (we're now back to Good and our LA rates us internally as Outstanding), we were asked whether we knew what to do to turn it round, told to go away and get on with it...which we did.

I liked this bit...

He said the new wave of sponsors will be different to the most familiar current sponsors – such as Ormiston, ATT, TEN and the Inspiration Trust, some of whom “were a bit brash, upset the apple cart a bit” – and aimed to be consensual, building on existing links with local primaries.
Yeah, that'll be Ms De Souza...

Bit caught my eye

Dr Coulson said he hoped his biggest contribution had been building relationships between different bodies involved in education: councils, academy sponsors, headteachers’ associations.

1) Schools bribed to leave LA bureaucrats.
2) New bureaucrat appointed by the government who "builds relationships" between these schools and the councils they've left.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 3:58 pm

Oh - apologies!

Good morfternoon.

The social niceties seem to have deserted me of late.

onebuttonmonkey · Post by **onebuttonmonkey** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 3:59 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Whilst trying to compose a coherent answer to your question I rambled through subsequent posts. Imagine?

Blimey. That should be enough for anyone.

However - I think it's that he has too many loose ends (eg the EU), and I'm not entirely happy about some of his back catalogue. He's not clear on what his overall "gameplan"is and he comes across as strangely detached and aloof. There's a touch of the "History Man" about him (odd, I know, and I can't quite explain it) which I find more than a tad off-putting.

Edited to get some of my post out of yours!

I've just been thinking a bit more about this and your comment has helped me to realise part of what it is about him that I like. My parents are teachers, and so, as a kid in the early 80s, I'd occasionally end up waiting in the staff room of the school they taught at. And Corbyn basically reminds me of pretty much everyone you could get on with then. Lefty teachers with a slightly wry air, some right-on opinions that might have dated (along with some shoddy cardigans that definitely have) but their heart firmly in the right place...

It's a funny old world, isn't it!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 3:59 pm

No problem PF, interminable leadership contests have those sort of effects.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 4:10 pm

PorFavor wrote: Whilst trying to compose a coherent answer to your question I rambled through subsequent posts. Imagine?

Blimey. That should be enough for anyone.

However - I think it's that he has too many loose ends (eg the EU), and I'm not entirely happy about some of his back catalogue. He's not clear on what his overall "gameplan"is and he comes across as strangely detached and aloof. There's a touch of the "History Man" about him (odd, I know, and I can't quite explain it) which I find more than a tad off-putting.

Edited to get some of my post out of yours!

I think 'detached' is the word I was looking for to explain my lack of enthusiasm for Corbyn.

Thanks for the blog link obm. Just glancing through Blair's 1994 speech, oh the irony

I say it is time to take these Tories apart for what they have done to our country not because they lack compassion - of course they do, they are Tories - but because they are the most feckless, irresponsible group of incompetents ever to be let loose in government on Britain.

Until the next tory government.

DonutHingeParty · Post by **DonutHingeParty** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 4:21 pm

onebuttonmonkey wrote:Afternoon, all. I've kept a low profile since the election - not only has it been A Funny Few Months, but also The Other Place was over-run with gloating and nonsense. Also, I know my own shouting from and about the left has not always been the same as consensus-building. I'll mouth off about Kendall on Twitter, but it's not the same as constructive, so I've kept it away from here.

Those who know me - and my frequent ranting - will be unsurprised to hear: (a) I've been exercised in all sorts of ways by the Labour leadership election and how glum an experience it is, and (b) I've ended up on the left talking about opposition and principles and Corbyn. I didn't start out intending to vote for him and, equally, I don't really want to barge in and rehash that here, but I did want to share the thing I ended up writing: it's not a rant so much as a lament and a plea. It's about what it's been like to have rejoined Labour, my experience of a "New Members' Social" and some reflections on our past and our future.

http://onebuttonmonkey.com/obm/2015/7/2 ... ahead.html

I'd be interested in how it marries with other people's experience - after all, the leadership election is, at its best, a conversation. Hopefully you'll be interested enough in my ramblings about it to excuse my indulgence in posting it here.

Hope you're all well. Here's to the future of the left...

Edit: because apparently I can't spell "it's"

Tis the day for all who have flown to return, it seems, and in more ways than one. After a couple of aborted attempts, I, too am attending a new members meeting, mine in Bristol tomorrow. After the election, I thought I was getting exercised about Burnham as leader, but when Corbyn put himself forwards, I realised that I didn't have to hold my nose, I didn't have to compromise, and there was really a chance for change in the party. I've since looked at some of his previous speeches, and although #corbynjokes is hilarious (Favourite: "Knock, knock / Who's there / Interrupting Cow. / Interrupti - / Moo - / Will you please have the grace and decency to let me finish making my point!") he actually comes across as a decent well humoured man. He's not a Wolfie Smith idealist, and seems fairly bewildered by the attention he's received, always referring to 'we'. In all honesty, I think even if he was elected, he'd stand down, but I don't care - what will be clear is the percentage of Labour members and supporters who support his full throated brand of practical socialism.

I paid my subscription not for the career progression of Burnham, Cooper or Kennedy, but to give voice to socialist values, and to let them be heard in the House of Commons. We are stuck with a Conservative Government in power for five years, and unless we can persuade 12 Tory MPs to cross in that intervening period that's not going to change. And if we had to change that much to get into power, it's not a power I'd want us to have.

Edit: And anyone who talks about the 'electability' of Blair the Music Man can stick their 76 trombones up their arsehole.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 4:31 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Denise M R ‏@DDRey 27 mins27 minutes ago

Lord Sewel thinks Cameron is a crap Prime Minister and Boris Johnson is a public school twit. I don't care about the bra. I like this guy.

He (or perhaps the vodka or white powder) seems quite perceptive

:

Alex Salmond as a “silly, pompous prat”, in footage obtained by The Sun, as Sewel recalls being on a flight in which he describes the former SNP leader walking up and down the flight aisle “holding court” and speaking to passengers.

David Cameron is also branded “the most facile, superficial prime minister there’s ever been”.

He labels Mayor of London Boris Johnson “a joke” and a “public school upper class twit”.

...Tony Blair’s decision to go to war in Iraq, Lord Sewel says the ex-party leader did so “because he fell in love with George Bush”.

Better leave out the comments on the Labour leadership election - don't want to be accused of spreading disharmony!

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/lord-se ... -1-3841635

DonutHingeParty · Post by **DonutHingeParty** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 4:31 pm

What depresses me about the election is that it's being run as an election at all. I'm constantly being asked for 'donations' to the various leader or deputy leader's campaigns, as if plutocracy should determine who is the leader of the labour party - Kinnock "The Labour Party!" /Kinnock

All candidates should be sharing the same distribution network, with equal costs for their materials and support, calmly outlaying their principles and with a simple grid indicating on their differences, not sniping and backbiting each other. It's being run like a repeat of the general election itself, but smacks in almost every case of individuals pushing themselves and their career rather than being a crucible of ideas to shape the party and I don't think that's healthy.

onebuttonmonkey · Post by **onebuttonmonkey** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 4:38 pm

DonutHingeParty wrote:What depresses me about the election is that it's being run as an election at all. I'm constantly being asked for 'donations' to the various leader or deputy leader's campaigns, as if plutocracy should determine who is the leader of the labour party - Kinnock "The Labour Party!" /Kinnock

All candidates should be sharing the same distribution network, with equal costs for their materials and support, calmly outlaying their principles and with a simple grid indicating on their differences, not sniping and backbiting each other. It's being run like a repeat of the general election itself, but smacks in almost every case of individuals pushing themselves and their career rather than being a crucible of ideas to shape the party and I don't think that's healthy.

What's not to love about getting 17 begging emails every day? Especially when some of the candidates funded by the party are treating any members who disagree with them with abject contempt. I got a letter from Cooper, too - I could see the line "what I stand for" through the address envelope. I recycled it - it seemed only fair...

It should be about the ideas, really, although that's terribly old-fashioned. Anyway, i hope you enjoy your new members' meet more than I did. The people who attended were far better than the things that were said. That, in a nutshell, is a lot of the party's recent history.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 4:45 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote: 1) Schools bribed to leave LA bureaucrats.
2) New bureaucrat appointed by the government who "builds relationships" between these schools and the councils they've left.

What makes it even more interesting is that he used to be Director of Education at Essex CC - he most likely thinks he has more power over the schools in the county now than he ever did before!

To me, that's what this is all about - Tory policy in the late 1980s gave schools too much autonomy and couldn't have local council bureaucrats meddling with them whereas now the RSCs and academy chains can do whatever they want. Completely opposite to what we get told.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 4:48 pm

DonutHingeParty wrote:What depresses me about the election is that it's being run as an election at all. I'm constantly being asked for 'donations' to the various leader or deputy leader's campaigns, as if plutocracy should determine who is the leader of the labour party - Kinnock "The Labour Party!" /Kinnock

All candidates should be sharing the same distribution network, with equal costs for their materials and support, calmly outlaying their principles and with a simple grid indicating on their differences, not sniping and backbiting each other. It's being run like a repeat of the general election itself, but smacks in almost every case of individuals pushing themselves and their career rather than being a crucible of ideas to shape the party and I don't think that's healthy.

You have just hit the nail on the head for me - setting out exactly why I find this all so lacking and OTT at the same time, and distasteful to boot.

There was someone on the NEC asking for comments / suggestions from the membership a while back ... please send him your post and tell him there will be thousands of other members thinking the same as well.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 4:56 pm

Stephen Bush ‏@stephenkb 2h2 hours ago
U-Turn alert. I talked to a bunch of people and I'm pretty certain that Corbyn's going to win: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... -going-win" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

... Yes, Corbyn’s lead in CLP nominations – he has, at time of writing, 112 to Andy Burnham’s 103 – isn’t necessarily indicative of anything. It’s not binding on members, has no effect on the final outcome, and at times, the number of members in attendance is vanishingly small. At one contest there were just 25 ballots: nine for Jeremy Corbyn, eight for Andy Burnham, four for Yvette Cooper, and one simply reading “Fuck Kendall”...

Ouch.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 5:30 pm

Green party pair challenge ban on MP job sharing
Sarah Cope and Clare Phipps seeking judicial review after returning officer refused their application to jointly stand for election in Basingstoke
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ob-sharing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well that's an interesting concept. As with any job share I can see both advantages and disadvantages. I wonder what would happen if one person involved in an MP job share had to pull out for whatever reason. Would there have to be a by-election or would the relevant party appoint someone to the vacancy? If the latter ... I can see this having features of, and moving us closer to, proportional representation.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 5:43 pm

Living Wage 'could harm home care sector'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-33678919" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 5:50 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Living Wage 'could harm home care sector'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-33678919" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm shocked, shocked that two separate policies i.e. cuts to council spending and the living wage could cause problems like because that no-one had thought through the consequences...

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 5:54 pm

https://www.politicshome.com/foreign-an ... -inside-eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The heads of 133 British universities have launched a campaign for Britain to remain part of the European Union

Beyond satire here:

Ukip’s Paul Nuttall criticised the body for speaking out.
He said: “Given that universities are supposed to be the bastions of open-minded learning, it seems wrong that an institution governing the interests of British education should embroil itself in a political debate that has seen people denied any democratic say whatsoever on how Britain should be governed for 40 years.”

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 5:56 pm

Evening.

Have been internet-less since Saturday morning, provider has finally managed to restore our link.

Something interesting happened over the weekend.
My husband and myself had a lot of time to talk as the weather was so bad and we're cat sitting an eleven week old kitten who needs a lot of attention.
This is the first time we've ever had a vote in the leadership election.

I am prepared to get my ears boxed but both of us are seriously considering now voting for Corbyn [with me plumping for Stella for deputy, my other half considering Tom Watson].
That was after a lot of discussion and reviewing all our years of voting and who/why we voted for and how we felt about it at the time and in retrospect.

I'm fed up trying to second guess who/what the people of this country are going to be willing vote for. All that is never a given, May this year showed that. Am fed up compromising.
We live in strange times, maybe a more left wing approach will work.

No, I don't like everything about Corbyn...the EU angle and sucking up to Hamas & Hezbollah are worrying.

My other half is 65, I'm 59. Time to put our money where our political mouths are ?
At least the important issues would get discussed for a year or two if he wins.
Then we can see how people react to him and a more full blooded approach.
If it doesn't work hopefully he will have the integrity to stand down and let someone else [Jarvis ? if his children are old enough then] take the reins.

What's interesting is the mental fug and internal battling over the issue I've felt for weeks has lifted.

Good to see some old posters back. Lots of love to Skippy. x

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 6:00 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Living Wage 'could harm home care sector'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-33678919" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm shocked, shocked that two separate policies i.e. cuts to council spending and the living wage could cause problems like because that no-one had thought through the consequences...

And what about the people on slightly higher wages? Aren't they supposed to walk out unless "differentials" are restored?

Or was that a load of old bollocks?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 6:03 pm

onebuttonmonkey wrote: I suppose it's better than someone like Cameron pretending to like the Smiths.y.

Whatever else there is to be said against him, Cameron clearly does like the Smiths

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for Corbyn, he won't be leader in 2020 even if elected. There are only around 20 members of the PLP who would want him. An aged, inexperienced, old rebel singing songs of the 70s. He wouldn't be able to construct a realistic opposition, let alone government. He is not like Foot, experienced, loyal, and backed as the unity candidate by the majority of the PLP. Foot was loved by many, liked by all. Those who know Corbyn best, his colleagues, tolerate him, nothing more.

Renationalise BT? Really? Leave the EU? Really? Marr gave him the softest of rides, people on here would be shouting if the same had been done with a Tory.

Burnham and Cooper have made themselves ridiculous with their (shared) strategy of not saying anything at all. One of them (probably the former) will win through second preferences. But their cynical refusal to engage has damaged them, and the party. The reason is that they know what would persuade the leadership electors bears little relation to what would persuade the voters in Nuneaton and Canterbury they eventually need to win over.

Jarvis is now well positioned to stop Prime Minister Osborne winning a third term. In 2030.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 6:08 pm

Hi YahYah,

Nice to see you. For me the Corbyn line on the EU is a big black mark too. I know the left Eurosceptics like to think they're different to the right ones, but they aren't really. Both don't get that the EU sets the conditions for the Single Market and have an outdated sense of Britain's power.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 6:12 pm

Yahyah

Seriously. Please don't.

I understand your fatalism, it is well captured here

http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com ... shame.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But Labour can't just elect Corbyn and then change tack if things don't work out.

Will Corbyn win in Nuneaton? Canterbury?

Will electing him help or harm Labour's prospects in these places?

The answer is obvious.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 6:16 pm

Yahyah

Try this on Corbyn

http://publicpolicypast.blogspot.co.uk/ ... usion.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 6:21 pm

I was better off without an internet connection !

I appreciate what you are saying Hugo. But I'm fed up with compromising.
Also realise there may be an issue with a Corbyn leadership bringing back the middle class folk I know who voted Green/Plaid because of Iraq & Blair. We need to attract more than them, I do realise that. But if not now then when ?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 27 Jul, 2015 6:26 pm

Asked again whether he would rule out campaigning to get out, the Islington North MP told the hustings: “No I wouldn’t rule it out … Because Cameron quite clearly follows an agenda which is about trading away workers’ rights, is about trading away environmental protection, is about trading away much of what is in the social chapter.

“The EU also knowingly, deliberately, maintains a number of tax havens and tax evasion posts around the continent – Luxembourg, Monaco and a number of others – and has this strange relationship with Switzerland which allows a lot of European companies to outsource their profits to Switzerland where tax rates are very low.”

Corbyn said Labour should set out its negotiating demands on issues such as workers’ rights, the environment, tax and wage protection. “I think we should be making those demands and negotiating on those demands rather than saying blanketly we’re going to support whatever Cameron comes out with in one, two years’ time, whenever he finally decides to hold this referendum.”

This is pitiful.

He can surely remember when Major negotiated away British working rights with the Social Chapter. Nobody seriously suggested leaving because we weren't in the social chapter. And nobody thought supporting EU membership was a vindication of British workers having fewer rights.

Labour supported staying in the EU and signing the Social Chapter as soon as it got into government.

What on earth is he talking about with "demands" and "negotiations" anyway? This is basically Tory Right stuff. You don't make "demands" like that and there wouldn't be any "negotiations".

Talk like that is basically a compliment to Cameron and the like, and makes people like Miliband/ Alexander who actually knew how things work look weak.