Wednesday 12th August 2015

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:50 pm

yahyah wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Most people aren't taking much notice, not least because it is August.

And apparently Labour HQ has just announced the final "eligible" electorate is over 600k.

By any standards that is impressive, and I would doubt that entryists even amount to 1% of the total.

Some of the people who've signed up may be voting for Kendall not Corbyn.

More extreme members of the so-called left wing parties like the SNP may want a Blairite Labour party rather than a Corbynite one stealing back their voters.

The SNP would love Corbyn. They'd revert to their previous "attract business to Scotland mode" and act like they'd never sounded left wing at all.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:50 pm

yahyah wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Most people aren't taking much notice, not least because it is August.

And apparently Labour HQ has just announced the final "eligible" electorate is over 600k.

By any standards that is impressive, and I would doubt that entryists even amount to 1% of the total.

Some of the people who've signed up may be voting for Kendall not Corbyn.

More extreme members of the so-called left wing parties like the SNP may want a Blairite Labour party rather than a Corbynite one stealing back their voters.

Except to me that looks like a disaster. If these people genuinely cared about the Labour Party why aren't they members and where exactly have they been.

It looks like entryism on a massive scale, influenced by the Twitter generation. What it isn't is a takeover by an organised political group.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:55 pm

Wonder what those who would like this current leadership contest suspended (or cancelled until they can find a way to only allow the right kind of candidates to be nominated?) imagine will happen if a rerun was imposed on the membership? I imagine the PLP will get the equivalent of a resounding kick up the jacksy with even more people trying to vote for a 'wrong candidate' next time - or mass resignations etc if the process is altered to put the power and control further away from ordinary members.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:56 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
yahyah wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Most people aren't taking much notice, not least because it is August.

And apparently Labour HQ has just announced the final "eligible" electorate is over 600k.

By any standards that is impressive, and I would doubt that entryists even amount to 1% of the total.

Some of the people who've signed up may be voting for Kendall not Corbyn.

More extreme members of the so-called left wing parties like the SNP may want a Blairite Labour party rather than a Corbynite one stealing back their voters.
Except to me that looks like a disaster. If these people genuinely cared about the Labour Party why aren't they members and where exactly have they been.

It looks like entryism on a massive scale, influenced by the Twitter generation. What it isn't is a takeover by an organised political group.

I agree with this. It's awful.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:10 pm

ONS - The Burden of Financial and Property Debt, Great Britain, 2010 to 2012
Part of Wealth in Great Britain Wave 3, The Burden of Property Debt in Great Britain

27 July 2015

- Total household property debt was estimated to be £1 trillion in 2010 to 2012, up from £980 billion in 2008 to 2010.

- In 2010 to 2012, the total financial debt for Great Britain was estimated to be £104 billion, an increase from £96 billion in 2008 to 2010.

- 19.8% of households reported a heavy financial debt burden.

- 5.8% of individuals in the highest net income decile reported a heavy burden, compared to 33.9% of individuals in the lowest decile.

- 3.2% of household’s highest wealth decile reported that they have a heavy debt burden. This burden increases to 39.6% in the lowest decile.

- Heavy burden of property debt improved from 11.3% in 2008 to 2010 to 10.6% in 2010 to 2012.

- Households in the highest wealth decile are less likely to have a heavy property debt burden (2.4%), compared to 42.1% of households in the lowest wealth decile.

- 4.1% of households in the highest income decile reported having a heavy debt burden, compared to 19.2% of households in the lowest income decile.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/was/wealt ... onclusions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(my bold)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:11 pm

Good-night, everyone.
love
cJA

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:17 pm

citizenJA wrote:Good-night, everyone.
love
cJA

Night cJA. You're having an early night. So am I. I've got my jammies on already.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:20 pm

Having spoken of women and their issues, I have to say that I'm thoroughly sickened by the whole Yarl's Wood thing... and haven't we got a female Home Secretary? But then she's a Tory and now I am reaching for my coat. Given who was the target of Alex Salmond's inappropriate comment in the House, I was inclined to agree with him.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:20 pm

Princess Birbalbollocks in full flow, against a bloke off another board.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:24 pm

Oops...
Wait, hang on...

Even if you hate me, please don’t take Labour over the cliff edge
If Jeremy Corbyn becomes leader, the party won’t just face defeat but annihilation. Stop him before it’s too late
Tony Blair

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... tony-blair" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"But in a thousand ways, small or large, which anyone in government can describe, being in power can make a difference to those we represent. The reality is that in the last three months the Labour party has been changed. Its membership has virtually doubled. Some will have joined in shock at the election result; many more are now joining specifically to support the Corbyn campaign; some with heavy organisation behind them. These last two groups are not many in number, relative to the population. But relative to the membership of a political party, they’re easily big enough to mount a partial takeover. The truth is they don’t really think it matters whether Labour wins an election or not. Some actually disdain government."

Someone help me out here.
Tone, what in the world are you on about, please?
Get over yourself.
This is depressing.
Wear beige & stow your chatter, please.

Apologies if I've offended anyone with this observation about TB.
But enough, already.
I'm sick of the term 'Blairite'.
Just keep it to yourself, mister.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:26 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Good-night, everyone.
love
cJA
Night cJA. You're having an early night. So am I. I've got my jammies on already.

Oh, Ohso, I wish I'd just shut down the device & walk away. But no. I checked the front page news first.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:31 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Corbyn love-fest? Blimey, not from where I'm standing.

Nor me - but that is the reason given by 2 people who have left in the past 2 days.
The other got sick of being lectured. Amongst other things.

As I said this morning, I am persuadable - but that is becoming less likely by the day and with every failure of engagement by the 3 candidates who appear to be intent on shooting themselves in the foot.
As I said this morning, I wish we could be nicer to each other. It can't be that hard. I have quite deliberately read but not commented on some points I really don't agree with because if they come from posters I like and respect I'd rather not get into a scrap. Obviously that does not apply to deliberate wind-ups that have no place here.

I'll be glad when it's all done. And I hope that those who are not engaged in this alleged love-fest, the ones whose absolute certainty that they are right and everyone else is wrong, try to be a bit more tolerant and try to work with whatever it is that we get.

Most people here are pleasant and reasonable, and that's fine. It only takes one or two to spoil it.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:31 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
yahyah wrote:
Some of the people who've signed up may be voting for Kendall not Corbyn.

More extreme members of the so-called left wing parties like the SNP may want a Blairite Labour party rather than a Corbynite one stealing back their voters.
Except to me that looks like a disaster. If these people genuinely cared about the Labour Party why aren't they members and where exactly have they been.

It looks like entryism on a massive scale, influenced by the Twitter generation. What it isn't is a takeover by an organised political group.
I've always cared about the Labour Party, and sometimes I'm not a member of it. Both times I've joined in the last decade were after an election defeat.

Can it be 'entryism' if it's not an organised takeover? I thought that was the definition of entryism.

I think chunks of this have been organised, see the Telegraph.

In any case the stupidity of permitting people to register and vote without the one year qualifying period (and certainly not after the candidates are announced) is shown.

A lot of people hate the Labour Party in this country. Admit it if you could spend £3 and get IDS elected as leader if the Tory party wouldn't you?

I would think the screening is getting about 1% of Green and assorted left wing members/supporters voting. Even so that still leaves a large chunk of genuine new sign ups, but again they aren't signing up to elect a leader but their chosen candidate.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:35 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:I've had a great idea. Every time someone tells how disastrous Corbyn would be for Labour, I'm going to post 'PROJECT FEAR!!!!' in response.

Robert Snozers - (you are not the Messiah), you are a very naughty boy.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:38 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote: I think chunks of this have been organised, see the Telegraph.

In any case the stupidity of permitting people to register and vote without the one year qualifying period (and certainly not after the candidates are announced) is shown.

A lot of people hate the Labour Party in this country. Admit it if you could spend £3 and get IDS elected as leader if the Tory party wouldn't you?

I would think the screening is getting about 1% of Green and assorted left wing members/supporters voting. Even so that still leaves a large chunk of genuine new sign ups, but again they aren't signing up to elect a leader but their chosen candidate.

No.

I loathe the policies and antics of the Conservative Party but nothing in me wants to get involved in something like that.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:39 pm

Rather missing out that as subsequent events have shown, being fearful was exactly the right call on Scottish Independence.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:45 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Rather missing out that as subsequent events have shown, being fearful was exactly the right call on Scottish Independence.

I don't disagree with you.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:50 pm

Where's Pollyanna when you need her?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 7:53 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Where's Pollyanna when you need her?

Hear! Oops. Rumbled?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 8:02 pm

G'night
love
cJA

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 8:22 pm

The Venn diagram of those that think of Blair 2015 in a positive light and those in the 600k(!) with voting rights could be interesting.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 8:41 pm

Corbyn:Er Tone,It looks like I will win,could you do us us a favour and make it certain
This is surreal.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 8:46 pm

Polyanfavor wrote:Cameron is clearly unelectable and he won (albeit on less than a quarter of the possible UK vote)

Edited to clarify that Polyanfavor is a fictitious character, who would like us to look on the bright side.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 9:14 pm

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/to ... ng-6242100" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tories blasted as damning NHS waiting time figures released in one batch to 'bury bad news'

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 9:23 pm

Latest sanction figures for those interested:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... march-2015" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 9:28 pm

ESA/IB/SDA continuing to rise.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... aries-2015" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 9:41 pm

HindleA wrote:ESA/IB/SDA continuing to rise.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... aries-2015" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cheers.

2.525m

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 10:18 pm

HindleA wrote:Corbyn:Er Tone,It looks like I will win,could you do us us a favour and make it certain
This is surreal.

Blair is an arse but he is in my view right about Corbyn. He won 3 elections and as Tubby's graph shows did more for the poor of this country than Jeremy Corbyn, Michael Foot and even Ed Miliband ever did.

He was also right about the 2015 election. Note that even the exit polls were pro Labour biased which means the shy Tories are back. A lot of people in this country know it is morally wrong, are ashamed about it, but still vote Tory (and lie about it).

Does that really suggest a country that is in the mood for a radical left wing government? I think it suggests a country fearful of too much change and worrying primarily about the economy and their pockets.

I hope Ed Miliband will intervene and point out that electing the unelectable while emotionally satisfying is probably not in the long term interests of the country. However he probably won't. Brown definitely won't bother as he has withdrawn from politics.

However at this point I doubt it will make any difference.

I notice dear old Shirl ( national treasureTM) is predicting a new centre left party will be formed, we could call it SDP 2.0. For the record it is unlikely because unlike the isolated Gang of Four, the vast majority of the parliamentary party is centrist.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 10:21 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Polyanfavor wrote:Cameron is clearly unelectable and he won (albeit on less than a quarter of the possible UK vote)
Edited to clarify that Polyanfavor is a fictitious character, who would like us to look on the bright side.

In which case I see a future where the , shambolic election is terminated and Ed Miliband appointed as caretaker while the mess is sorted out.

The fact that is the best outcome I can see says things are dark.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 10:25 pm

In other news this chap is quite cool.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/a ... dia-uproar

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 10:30 pm

Some interesting snippets about UK snooping (sorry law enforcement) and Twitter.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33882688

I am amused they reject 50% of requests for details and refused to remove 9 tweets. Rather begs the question who is asking and on what basis. In general a warrant should have been served compelling handover of data. Are law enforcement asking without authority on the off chance?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 10:43 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:In other news this chap is quite cool.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/a ... dia-uproar

He acknowledged that he had not told the truth during his internship interview when asked whether he would be able to support himself during his stay. He said, however, that when he had previously answered that question truthfully he had found all doors closed to him. “The UN was clear about their intern policy from the start: no wage or stipend, no transport help, no food allowance, no health assistance. I understood this, and in that regard, I have to take responsibility for taking the internship in the first place.”

There is something really wrong with this world when this type of stuff goes on and is considered normal.

NB aren't the UN considered an international organisation and therefore employees are paid tax free?

Just sayin'...

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 10:52 pm

Apparently John Mann making a dickhead of himself on Newsnight.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 11:02 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Apparently John Mann making a dickhead of himself on Newsnight.

Is this in any way unusual?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 11:05 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:In other news this chap is quite cool.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/a ... dia-uproar

He acknowledged that he had not told the truth during his internship interview when asked whether he would be able to support himself during his stay. He said, however, that when he had previously answered that question truthfully he had found all doors closed to him. “The UN was clear about their intern policy from the start: no wage or stipend, no transport help, no food allowance, no health assistance. I understood this, and in that regard, I have to take responsibility for taking the internship in the first place.”
There is something really wrong with this world when this type of stuff goes on and is considered normal.

NB aren't the UN considered an international organisation and therefore employees are paid tax free?

Just sayin'...

Yes, but much like their decision to whitewash Sri Lankan war crimes a few years ago they don't do morality.

How on earth they don't at least keep subsidised accommodation for their interns is beyond me. Basically it says we only want rich people working for us.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 11:06 pm

Jeez. Corbyn again.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -deception" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Corbyn will also raise a question over the government’s plans to build the HS2 high-speed railway line to the north, on the grounds that it will drain other lines of investment and turn northern cities into “dormitories for London businesses”.

His document says: “The Conservative government has torn schools away from the support networks of local authorities, regardless of the wishes of teachers and parents, and made them accountable directly to Whitehall, bypassing parents and local communities. They have suspended the much needed investment in rail infrastructure in the north to fund HS2, a project with the aim of turning our great regional cities into dormitories for London businesses.”

How many trains does he think HS2 are going to run?! It'll have to be a lot to make Manchester into a "dormitory town for London".

And the suspension of the two electrification is sod all to do with HS2- completely different funding. You might as well say it was suspended for free schools or the pension triple lock. It was suspended because of the horlicks of the Great Western electrification.

Questioning HS2 as value for money is fair enough- though northern city councils are strongly in favour of it, and are going to use it to attract more investment. But this is man in the pub bollocks.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 11:07 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Apparently John Mann making a dickhead of himself on Newsnight.
Is this in any way unusual?

No but apparently he was "getting Corbyn". You and I really don't want Mann on telly doing that.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 11:22 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Apparently John Mann making a dickhead of himself on Newsnight.
Is this in any way unusual?
No but apparently he was "getting Corbyn". You and I really don't want Mann on telly doing that.

Oh I get Corbyn, it all sounds brilliant.

The problem is then you look at it rationally and realise that it won't work and people won't vote for somebody to experiment with the economy. Peoples QE and the re-industrialisation of the North. Great sound-bites utterly impractical. Perhaps if he was nice and cuddly and decided to fix just one thing within a conventional economic framework - housing for example; he might go down rather well.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 11:29 pm

You left out Carbon Capture and bringing back South Wales deep coal mining.

It's basically the Green Party- hoovering up hobby horses and stuff off the internet.

I meant "getting Corbyn" in the sense of going after him. Which you and I, as strong critics of Corbyn, really don't want Mann doing.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 11:34 pm

I think it's a real shame there isn't a left candidate going for, as you say, housing in a believable way or emphasizing raising money to improve the NHS, instead of running largely on its structure.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 11:39 pm

And on his "North" policy, what's he actually suggesting to escape Treasury cuts? Raising lots of extra money locally, borrowing locally?

Scotland's never used its tax powers.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 12:49 am

Tubby Isaacs wrote:And on his "North" policy, what's he actually suggesting to escape Treasury cuts? Raising lots of extra money locally, borrowing locally?

Scotland's never used its tax powers.

Seen it before, see Liverpool 1980s and one Derek Hatton.

What happens when a council borrows beyond its means....

Stand by Neil Kinnock on 3......

Actually hang on a bit in Scotland and we will see the answer 2016 style.

This is just nuts, much like the Green Party Citizens income, it sounds wonderful but falls over at the slightest critical inspection.....

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 13 Aug, 2015 1:09 am

Hatton wasn't even the leader,as I said before,no one really remembers John Hamilton.I was pressurised at local level.I didn't relent,it was cultish ,bordering on messianic .The man spent more on one suit than I earnt in a month,nothing wrong with that per se,but in context shall we say.The cult of personality,I used the term advisedly.