Wednesday 12th August 2015

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:02 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:I see, so Ed Miliband was a Blairite? I suppose from the perspective of the Bennite left we do all look the same.

In addition to David Miliband (see above) the other person who shares a large slice of the blame for the disaster about to inflict Labour is Tony Blair. The source of that was, and is, Iraq.

Iraq completely discredited Blair. The numbers who still support the Iraq War and Blair's part in it are tiny, but are disproportionately represented in the media (and as AK likes to point out, especially the Times).

Within the UK, that disaster not only brought down Blair eventually, it also fatally undermined that right of the Labour movement. Today, if you label someone a Blairite you associate them with Iraq, disgrace. and failure.

Not all of this is rational of course. Corbyn has disgracefully pandered to those who shout war criminal at Blair.

With the downfall of Blairism in 2007, the stage was set for those who consider themselves 'mainstream Labour' to shine. Unfortunately Brown and Miliband proved rather less successful at winning elections than Blair had been.

So, with Blairism not an option, and the approach of Brown and his younger follower unsuccessful, what was the choice?

Corbyn.
Ed Miliband was still New Labour, even if he moved a bit away from it over time. Was 'approach of Brown and his younger follower unsuccessful'? Or rather, would it have been if they hadn't faced frequent attacks and attempts to undermine them from within the party? Miliband had to expend vast amounts of energy just holding the party together. How do you expect him to shine under those circumstances?

Let's look at it another way. Do you think a Blair-led Labour would have won in 2010 and 2015?

I'm not sure your 'Iraq killed Labour' narrative works. Labour won an election after that with a pretty big majority, even with Blair at the helm, though I think if it hadn't been understood that he was going sooner or later, that might not have been so certain. I don't know that 'Blairite' predominantly creates an association in the mind with Iraq - to me it smacks of discredited neoliberal economics, criminally light-touch regulation, private sector encroachments where there should never have been, bloody academies, foundation trusts and so on.

Ed Miliband was not New Labour in any way. In fact he declared it dead. He was centre left as Kinnock was but more constrained by the economic environment.

Plus when I think of Labour 97-2010 I look at huge amounts of redistribution (on the quiet) a long period of economic prosperity, Kosovo and the defeat of Serbian nationalist ambitions, Sierra-Leone (also sadly Iraq). I think of the rescue and rebuilding of the NHS and I think of 3 election victories.

Corbyn is going to have to rapidly dissociate himself from his more stupid foreign policy statements (and I think the word is fully applicable here). His position on Kosovo being one such example. This stuff matters in a leader, because people are trusting them to defend the country.

Blair wouldn't have won in 2010, he had lost the plot by then. David Miliband might have, but he does seem to have a complete charisma bypass so probably not.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:03 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
onebuttonmonkey wrote:Oh good grief:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/stat ... 7779177472
What dignity, eh.
The Gang of Three.

As I commented yesterday (on Peter Hain's article re Yvette Cooper) - not enough political nous to stand above this. That goes for the three of them.
They've just ruled themselves out. Idiots.

Exactly. And I was hoping against hope that one of them would give me a reason . . . .

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:04 pm

barney farmer ‏@barneyfarmer 30 mins30 minutes ago

From failed business to being manoeuvred into a seat by PLP against wishes of local party, Simon Danczuk is New Labour to his fucking core

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:07 pm

"Let's have no more of these useless meetings, eh?"

[youtube]_iGgaSI6fIU[/youtube]

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:07 pm

Corbyn has disgracefully pandered to those who shout war criminal at Blair.

To be fair, there are people who seem to know what they're on about with international law, like Philippe Sands, who think Blair could be prosecuted.

As with the possibility of Murdoch being prosecuted for "corrupt foreign practices", we should assume that prosecution would mean "He's going to the Tower".

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:09 pm

Shall we see the complaint before we decide?

onebuttonmonkey · Post by **onebuttonmonkey** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:10 pm

If it's true - it might be journalese - then it's one of the most hapless, idiotic things they could do. It screams "my judgment is too poor to be leader." This process they were all supporting before someone they didn't like did well is unfair? Please. You know how I said we do most damage to ourselves? Case in *swearing* point. Just... pitiful. I mean. And far more damaging than any result could be, too.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:13 pm

TE,

Absolutely.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:18 pm

onebuttonmonkey wrote:If it's true - it might be journalese - then it's one of the most hapless, idiotic things they could do. It screams "my judgment is too poor to be leader." This process they were all supporting before someone they didn't like did well is unfair? Please. You know how I said we do most damage to ourselves? Case in *swearing* point. Just... pitiful. I mean. And far more damaging than any result could be, too.

It would be a problem that they'd supported the process before, but I think they could probably argue that the process isn't up to screening out people with no interest in Labour doing well.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:23 pm

@citizenJA

Regarding walks I still miss my dogs, гражданка, although they'd have to drag me around on a sled these days. 'And after all the training I gave them to stop pulling, especially the Alsatian. Talking of dogs I remember when my wife got me the first, a Dobermann (no docked tail thankfully, she was a cross), unannounced I might add; she just knew I loved them.

Anyway I worked directly opposite where we lived at the time so used to pop over whenever the alarm went off. Within a few days was one such occasion and although she'd never been trained that way, she instinctively knew how to behave. As soon as I released her on entering the premises she surveyed the building from the left going in and out of every section barking loudly and returned to me working her way back on the right. That may have been the time I seized an intruder by the leg as he made his getaway through the toilet window. It was only then I came to my senses and queried whether or not I really wanted a confrontation, so just let him go.

Edit: I'll shut up now and focus on current affairs. Oh I should add they were rescue dogs, both eighteen months old when we got them, so not a young pup surveying the place.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:26 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Sorry Robert but the policy review was publish on the YB web site annually over 4 years informing people where the review was up to, that's where I was mentioned, in the first year summery of the review. That document (the consolidated review) was then again put to members (via the YB web site) to comment on or suggest further revisions.
An example here
Stability and Prosperity Policy Consultation
http://www.yourbritain.org.uk/agenda-20 ... ultation-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rinse and repeated till the final review was concluded.
The final review that lead to the manifesto is here:

NATIONAL POLICY FORUM REPORT 2014

http://www.yourbritain.org.uk/uploads/e ... t_2014.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Having made submissions I received emails telling me when comments were made on the submission I had submitted.
Could communication be better? Yes it always can & should be, and whoever organised the event you attended should have made the purpose of the event much clearer to avoid the misunderstanding (and bad feelings) that it caused.
Annually? That rather proves my point. You've highlighted rather more engagement than I thought there was, and I thank you for it, but if the party thinks this will do, then we still have a problem. My point was that Corbyn has turned engagement of the membership into something that has almost instant results, not a bland and turgid four-year haul, and that's one reason he has energised the campaign.

The reviews were publish annually, because, you know, there's a large membership to consult. But in between, if you followed the YB web site you would have read various updates and new submissions.
Sometimes no matter how hard you try, people won't/don't get involved and then shout because in their view whatever you have done is not good enough.
Getting the views from a tiny, tiny minority of the party and getting them collated into a "paper" is nothing compared to the policy review and member consultations undertaken over 5 years. 5 years "because" by then the fixed term parliament act had been passed. So time was on their side. But hey, be impressed by a paper cobbled together on a back room computer whilst dismissing the dedication and work put into a full scale policy review.

I'm out of this Corbyn love in fest, its obvious the man can do no wrong in this place, knock a policy review up in no time (and from the opinions a tiny fraction of the membership at that) and the man's a hero!.

I'll be back after the election is over, between trying to point out that others in this election ARE saying important things, posting details of how Labour party works and getting ignored (ovs not about Corbyn so no response needed) and being told black is white over how Labour policy review was conducted in the face of all evidence - I'm fed up, enough.
Catch ya all some time in September.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:31 pm

Angi Mansi retweeted
Martin O'Neill ‏@DrNostromo 17 hrs17 hours ago

FFS The #Labour party have stopped Ken Loach maker of The Spirit of 45 from voting in leadership election, they have lost the plot.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:32 pm

I'm out of this Corbyn love in fest, its obvious the man can do no wrong in this place, knock a policy review up in no time (and from the opinions a tiny fraction of the membership at that) and the man's a hero!.

You're not alone here- TE, Hugo and I are all strongly anti-Corbyn.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:32 pm

@AngryAsWell

No "love-in" on my part.

Anyhow, stay safe and I hope you have some decent weather to enjoy if you're taking a sabbatical.

See you in September, if not before.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:33 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Angi Mansi retweeted
Martin O'Neill ‏@DrNostromo 17 hrs17 hours ago

FFS The #Labour party have stopped Ken Loach maker of The Spirit of 45 from voting in leadership election, they have lost the plot.

He founded an opposing party less than 2 years ago.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:33 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I'm out of this Corbyn love in fest, its obvious the man can do no wrong in this place, knock a policy review up in no time (and from the opinions a tiny fraction of the membership at that) and the man's a hero!.
You're not alone here- TE, Hugo and I are all strongly anti-Corbyn.

I'm pro-Labour.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:34 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Angi Mansi retweeted
Martin O'Neill ‏@DrNostromo 17 hrs17 hours ago

FFS The #Labour party have stopped Ken Loach maker of The Spirit of 45 from voting in leadership election, they have lost the plot.

He is one of the founders of Left Unity, a rival political party.

Could somebody point this out to said tweeter, if it hasn't been done already?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:37 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:Corbyn is going to have to rapidly dissociate himself from his more stupid foreign policy statements (and I think the word is fully applicable here). His position on Kosovo being one such example.
What's your position on the KLA then TE?

My position is that is whataboutery.

My position on Kosovo is that it was subjected to state sanctioned murder by Serbia and the intervention prevented the sort of behaviour we saw in the rest of the Balkans. The decision to go (largely made by Blair - claimed but not verified) resulted in a swift end to hostilities and stability was returned to the region. This has in turn resulted in the collapse of the Serbian nationalist government and the prosecution of actual war criminals. You know the ones that actually order the murder of men women and children in their care.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:37 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Angi Mansi retweeted
Martin O'Neill ‏@DrNostromo 17 hrs17 hours ago

FFS The #Labour party have stopped Ken Loach maker of The Spirit of 45 from voting in leadership election, they have lost the plot.
He is one of the founders of Left Unity, a rival political party.

Could somebody point this out to said tweeter, if it hasn't been done already?

Loach must have known he wasn't eligible. He's a fool.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:39 pm

@AngryAsWell
Come back soon - your commentary about the Labour party website are excellent.
Sure, the site could be more user-friendly but I used it & can see it becoming a better tool.
Let the next Labour party leader be a Labour party member & supporter, that's all I ask.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:42 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:I see, so Ed Miliband was a Blairite? I suppose from the perspective of the Bennite left we do all look the same.

In addition to David Miliband (see above) the other person who shares a large slice of the blame for the disaster about to inflict Labour is Tony Blair. The source of that was, and is, Iraq.

Iraq completely discredited Blair. The numbers who still support the Iraq War and Blair's part in it are tiny, but are disproportionately represented in the media (and as AK likes to point out, especially the Times).

Within the UK, that disaster not only brought down Blair eventually, it also fatally undermined that right of the Labour movement. Today, if you label someone a Blairite you associate them with Iraq, disgrace. and failure.

Not all of this is rational of course. Corbyn has disgracefully pandered to those who shout war criminal at Blair.

With the downfall of Blairism in 2007, the stage was set for those who consider themselves 'mainstream Labour' to shine. Unfortunately Brown and Miliband proved rather less successful at winning elections than Blair had been.

So, with Blairism not an option, and the approach of Brown and his younger follower unsuccessful, what was the choice?

Corbyn.
Ed Miliband was still New Labour, even if he moved a bit away from it over time. Was 'approach of Brown and his younger follower unsuccessful'? Or rather, would it have been if they hadn't faced frequent attacks and attempts to undermine them from within the party? Miliband had to expend vast amounts of energy just holding the party together. How do you expect him to shine under those circumstances?

Let's look at it another way. Do you think a Blair-led Labour would have won in 2010 and 2015?

I'm not sure your 'Iraq killed Labour' narrative works. Labour won an election after that with a pretty big majority, even with Blair at the helm, though I think if it hadn't been understood that he was going sooner or later, that might not have been so certain. I don't know that 'Blairite' predominantly creates an association in the mind with Iraq - to me it smacks of discredited neoliberal economics, criminally light-touch regulation, private sector encroachments where there should never have been, bloody academies, foundation trusts and so on.
Ed Miliband was not New Labour in any way. In fact he declared it dead. He was centre left as Kinnock was but more constrained by the economic environment.

Plus when I think of Labour 97-2010 I look at huge amounts of redistribution (on the quiet) a long period of economic prosperity, Kosovo and the defeat of Serbian nationalist ambitions, Sierra-Leone (also sadly Iraq). I think of the rescue and rebuilding of the NHS and I think of 3 election victories.

Corbyn is going to have to rapidly dissociate himself from his more stupid foreign policy statements (and I think the word is fully applicable here). His position on Kosovo being one such example. This stuff matters in a leader, because people are trusting them to defend the country.

Blair wouldn't have won in 2010, he had lost the plot by then. David Miliband might have, but he does seem to have a complete charisma bypass so probably not.

Blair did great things in Government but he also left us Iraq which for some of us was unforgivable

I also ask if the Labour years were so good why is it that the Blair supporters in the media and in the PLP are the ones now supporting austerity and slagging off the legacy of those years....'Labour spent too much' does not come out of the mouths of the left?

Also, David Miliband...what a complete bypass of courage and personality that man is. I would have held him in as much respect as Cameron although the policies would have been more palatable

The people to blame for Corbyn are those who moan now but never put up a credible candidate that understood the grass roots and the people who stopped voting for labour...only now are we seeing some life

We had the leader we needed in Ed Miliband but who was it who betrayed him? The right-wing of Labour that is who!

Instead of blaming all and sundry for the rise of Corbyn....look at the heirs of the Blair...not the Blair of 1994-2001 but the Blair that cam after he lost the election. He is the one who is now rubbishing a record he should have been proud of

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:42 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Angi Mansi retweeted
Martin O'Neill ‏@DrNostromo 17 hrs17 hours ago

FFS The #Labour party have stopped Ken Loach maker of The Spirit of 45 from voting in leadership election, they have lost the plot.
He is one of the founders of Left Unity, a rival political party.

Could somebody point this out to said tweeter, if it hasn't been done already?

I will if I can find it. I get a lot of Tweets...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:45 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Angi Mansi retweeted
Martin O'Neill ‏@DrNostromo 17 hrs17 hours ago

FFS The #Labour party have stopped Ken Loach maker of The Spirit of 45 from voting in leadership election, they have lost the plot.
He is one of the founders of Left Unity, a rival political party.

Could somebody point this out to said tweeter, if it hasn't been done already?

I will if I can find it. I get a lot of Tweets...

Done....

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:46 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Angi Mansi retweeted
Martin O'Neill ‏@DrNostromo 17 hrs17 hours ago

FFS The #Labour party have stopped Ken Loach maker of The Spirit of 45 from voting in leadership election, they have lost the plot.
He is one of the founders of Left Unity, a rival political party.

Could somebody point this out to said tweeter, if it hasn't been done already?
Loach must have known he wasn't eligible. He's a fool.

No, he knew he would get lots of indignant ill-informed "support" like the above.

If you want a good laugh, btw - have a check of LU's results at the GE. TUSC appear a raging success by comparison

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:47 pm

The people to blame for Corbyn are those who moan now but never put up a credible candidate that understood the grass roots and the people who stopped voting for labour...only now are we seeing some life

Much as I don't want Corbyn to win, I have to agree that we haven't found a credible candidate of our own, and it is a huge problem.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:48 pm

utopiandreams wrote:@yahyah

Btw, I was the 'one of our own' who commented on Yvette's overzealous, to my mind, approach to women issues. I did however take cover with 'but what do | know being a bloke'. I was a little upset you took it the way you did. 'And on that note I'd like to say that I had to steer two growing lads' attitude toward the fairer sex as their mother had a stroke and their sister Downs. The youngest can't even remember his Mum before her stroke and let's face it, young lads aren't exactly the kindest of creatures. I believe William Golding once wrote of such things.

Sorry, UP, it was quite a while ago and I couldn't remember who it was, or even exactly what was said.

I am just concerned that many men may be turned off about women's issues if we have a female leader, much as I would like to see a good woman lead the party.

I find myself getting tetchy listening to Womans Hour sometimes myself, when everything is seen through a female prism.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:48 pm

citizenJA wrote: I'm pro-Labour.

Yes indeed noted that is definitely true. I would certainly also claim to be that.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:51 pm

Foxymoron retweeted
Randall Northam ‏@RandallNortham 5 mins5 minutes ago

@WorkPsychol @Corbyn4Leader The right of the party wanted the £3 scheme, the left didn't. Ironic or what?

Is this right?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:52 pm

yahyah wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:@yahyah

Btw, I was the 'one of our own' who commented on Yvette's overzealous, to my mind, approach to women issues. I did however take cover with 'but what do | know being a bloke'. I was a little upset you took it the way you did. 'And on that note I'd like to say that I had to steer two growing lads' attitude toward the fairer sex as their mother had a stroke and their sister Downs. The youngest can't even remember his Mum before her stroke and let's face it, young lads aren't exactly the kindest of creatures. I believe William Golding once wrote of such things.
Sorry, UP, it was quite a while ago and I couldn't remember who it was, or even exactly what was said.

I am just concerned that many men may be turned off about women's issues if we have a female leader, much as I would like to see a good woman lead the party.

I find myself getting tetchy listening to Womans Hour sometimes myself, when everything is seen through a female prism.

Very true. Unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

onebuttonmonkey · Post by **onebuttonmonkey** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:54 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
onebuttonmonkey wrote:If it's true - it might be journalese - then it's one of the most hapless, idiotic things they could do. It screams "my judgment is too poor to be leader." This process they were all supporting before someone they didn't like did well is unfair? Please. You know how I said we do most damage to ourselves? Case in *swearing* point. Just... pitiful. I mean. And far more damaging than any result could be, too.
It would be a problem that they'd supported the process before, but I think they could probably argue that the process isn't up to screening out people with no interest in Labour doing well.

There are, I suppose, two questions arising from that tweet:

1. Is it a valid complaint?
And you're right, we need to wait and see. The fact that it's three of them makes me raise an eyebrow, but, you know: details to follow.

and

2. Has the complaint been made in a valid way?
To some extent we havr to wait on this, too. But you know what? It's already been reported by the Times. Leadership candidates who are going to write to Labour HQ about the election process we all have a stake in. Already reported by the Times.

I am not exactly happy. I am exactly not happy. We shall see.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 5:57 pm

yahyah wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:@yahyah

Btw, I was the 'one of our own' who commented on Yvette's overzealous, to my mind, approach to women issues. I did however take cover with 'but what do | know being a bloke'. I was a little upset you took it the way you did. 'And on that note I'd like to say that I had to steer two growing lads' attitude toward the fairer sex as their mother had a stroke and their sister Downs. The youngest can't even remember his Mum before her stroke and let's face it, young lads aren't exactly the kindest of creatures. I believe William Golding once wrote of such things.
Sorry, UP, it was quite a while ago and I couldn't remember who it was, or even exactly what was said.

I am just concerned that many men may be turned off about women's issues if we have a female leader, much as I would like to see a good woman lead the party.

I find myself getting tetchy listening to Womans Hour sometimes myself, when everything is seen through a female prism.

Is that the Australian one where all the scenery used to move? Or the one with the withering googies?

Oh! Prism. With you.

Edited to add an "s"

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:01 pm

Not quite sure about the comment about Gower.

Plaid actually polled nearly 800 votes less than 2001, and were only up by about 290 since 2010.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:14 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Angi Mansi retweeted
Martin O'Neill ‏@DrNostromo 17 hrs17 hours ago

FFS The #Labour party have stopped Ken Loach maker of The Spirit of 45 from voting in leadership election, they have lost the plot.

He did found a party that opposes Labour, so is it that surprising ?

Isn't it all getting a bit hysterical when people swear [FFS] at stuff like that ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:16 pm

PorFavor wrote:
yahyah wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:@yahyah

Btw, I was the 'one of our own' who commented on Yvette's overzealous, to my mind, approach to women issues. I did however take cover with 'but what do | know being a bloke'. I was a little upset you took it the way you did. 'And on that note I'd like to say that I had to steer two growing lads' attitude toward the fairer sex as their mother had a stroke and their sister Downs. The youngest can't even remember his Mum before her stroke and let's face it, young lads aren't exactly the kindest of creatures. I believe William Golding once wrote of such things.
Sorry, UP, it was quite a while ago and I couldn't remember who it was, or even exactly what was said.

I am just concerned that many men may be turned off about women's issues if we have a female leader, much as I would like to see a good woman lead the party.

I find myself getting tetchy listening to Womans Hour sometimes myself, when everything is seen through a female prism.
I that the Australian one where all the scenery used to move? Or the one with the withering googies?

Oh! Prism. With you.

I've never been a sweaty inmate of an Aussie women's prison. Honest guv.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:19 pm

Someone I know met Loach the other day- he was voting as a union member, but then realized he had to sign up to stuff that probably ruled him out. So he wasn't out and out trolling, but pushing the boundary a bit, I think it's fair to say.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:19 pm

yahyah wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Angi Mansi retweeted
Martin O'Neill ‏@DrNostromo 17 hrs17 hours ago

FFS The #Labour party have stopped Ken Loach maker of The Spirit of 45 from voting in leadership election, they have lost the plot.
He did found a party that opposes Labour, so is it that surprising ?

Isn't it all getting a bit hysterical when people swear [FFS] at stuff like that ?

I'm feeling the religious fervor.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:21 pm

I am at a complete loss to understand why AAW is now another who thinks this is a Corbyn love-fest - especially when several posters are clearly anti and at least one posts in such derogatory terms I've felt the need to ask him to stop.

I know absolutely what Robert means about the YourBritain site. I and others I know have contributed things to this, and apart from being notified that others have commented on the thread, I and my friends have never once had any official acknowledgement that our contributions have even been looked at, let alone discussed. YB has nothing to do with Corbyn. It has everything to do with the Labour high command.

I have had real problems with some of the posts here, and from one individual in particular. One of the reasons I don't post much on politics at the G is because I despise this deliberate needling that is as close to trolling as makes no difference. It's pretty pathetic, but very annoying.

It seems that no amount of us asking for a bit of kindness this morning has affected the people who need to employ it. It seems that feeling are running so high among some that reasonable argument involving criticism of how Labour does things - from Labour supporters - that this causes valued posters to leave having assumed that any such criticism denotes bonkers Corbynites refusing to see the good Labour actually did do.

This is getting really silly now. Even worse than before the election. Maybe Labour needs this sort of shake-up, if we have people who essentially have quite similar views in theory but when challenged in practice start squabbling over details with a notable few resorting to insult.

Like OhSo, I'll vote for who I bloody well want. And if my chosen candidate messes up, I'll be the first to say so. This does not make me a dinosaur, a Bennite, a religious fanatic, or someone whose engagement fell on deaf ears but somehow fails to understand how the party works.

Change is coming, one way or the other. And if more people leave because they misunderstand or understand too well what's going on, this place will become the echo chamber we all hoped it wouldn't.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:24 pm

This feels worse than the May election. As if anything could be.

Edited to add:
meaning that we are all picking at each other, and probably being sniggered at by those reading who have no right to be intruding in the decision making of a party they oppose.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:24 pm

Withering googies. Best description I've heard of Dave in his swimming cossie.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:28 pm

yahyah wrote:This feels worse than the May election. As if anything could be.

Edited to add:
meaning that we are all picking at each other, and probably being sniggered at by those reading who have no right to be intruding the decision making of a party they oppose.

Yep.

We're in "if this is how they run themselves, imagine how they'll run the country" territory.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:30 pm

Most people aren't taking much notice, not least because it is August.

And apparently Labour HQ has just announced the final "eligible" electorate is over 600k.

By any standards that is impressive, and I would doubt that entryists even amount to 1% of the total.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:31 pm

Don't we get the voting papers soon ?

I'm going to wait until next week's TV hustings - Channel 4 on Monday at 7pm - and probably that will be the decider.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:31 pm

Just heard Angela Eagle saying how pleased she is at the rising number of people getting engaged in the Labour leadership and discussion ... and how great it is that for the first time it will be one person one vote. She's going to work for and support whoever wins the contest because it will be the will of the membership.

What a breath of fresh air she is. She's getting one of my dep leader prefs for sure.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:34 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Most people aren't taking much notice, not least because it is August.

And apparently Labour HQ has just announced the final "eligible" electorate is over 600k.

By any standards that is impressive, and I would doubt that entryists even amount to 1% of the total.

Some of the people who've signed up may be voting for Kendall not Corbyn.

More extreme members of the so-called left wing parties like the SNP may want a Blairite Labour party rather than a Corbynite one stealing back their voters.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:35 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
yahyah wrote:This feels worse than the May election. As if anything could be.

Edited to add:
meaning that we are all picking at each other, and probably being sniggered at by those reading who have no right to be intruding the decision making of a party they oppose.
Yep.

We're in "if this is how they run themselves, imagine how they'll run the country" territory.

Which is exactly what the Tories and the right wing press want to happen. And if the other three are buying into it, more fool them. It won't be the lefties causing a breakdown. It'll be their naivety.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:37 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Just heard Angela Eagle saying how pleased she is at the rising number of people getting engaged in the Labour leadership and discussion ... and how great it is that for the first time it will be one person one vote. She's going to work for and support whoever wins the contest because it will be the will of the membership.

What a breath of fresh air she is. She's getting one of my dep leader prefs for sure.

It's not written in stone yet, but if I do decide to vote I think she's going to be my choice for deputy.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:39 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
yahyah wrote:This feels worse than the May election. As if anything could be.

Edited to add:
meaning that we are all picking at each other, and probably being sniggered at by those reading who have no right to be intruding the decision making of a party they oppose.
Yep.

We're in "if this is how they run themselves, imagine how they'll run the country" territory.

Oh, I've seen that one already from the usual suspect and his little gang of frothers....if their government was any good it wouldn't matter what the opposition did.

Makes you wonder what'll happen when their turn comes and they realise that their party completely ignores them until it's safely down to two. Should we all join at that point and vote for Boris just for a larf?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:41 pm

And for good measure ... glad to see this from Creasy. It's a really good point re the challenge. My choice - not yet made - is between her and Angela Eagle ... not sure which way round to give my prefs yet.

stellacreasy ‏@stellacreasy 35m35 minutes ago
Given many alienated from politics, am excited by interest shown in labour contest-IMHO challenge 4 all is not 2 waste that energy 4 change!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:43 pm

yahyah wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Most people aren't taking much notice, not least because it is August.

And apparently Labour HQ has just announced the final "eligible" electorate is over 600k.

By any standards that is impressive, and I would doubt that entryists even amount to 1% of the total.

Some of the people who've signed up may be voting for Kendall not Corbyn.

More extreme members of the so-called left wing parties like the SNP may want a Blairite Labour party rather than a Corbynite one stealing back their voters.

Heh, that's an interesting conspiracy theory. I think that is all it is, though......

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 12 Aug, 2015 6:46 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
yahyah wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Most people aren't taking much notice, not least because it is August.

And apparently Labour HQ has just announced the final "eligible" electorate is over 600k.

By any standards that is impressive, and I would doubt that entryists even amount to 1% of the total.

Some of the people who've signed up may be voting for Kendall not Corbyn.

More extreme members of the so-called left wing parties like the SNP may want a Blairite Labour party rather than a Corbynite one stealing back their voters.
Heh, that's an interesting conspiracy theory. I think that is all it is, though......

I'll put my tin foil back in the cupboard. Just have a suspicious nature.