Thursday 18th September 2014

Post by **refitman** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 7:30 am

Morning all. Labour lead at 3 points on Yougov:

Latest YouGov / The Sun results 17th Sept -

Con 33%, (-1)
Lab 36%, (-1)
LD 8%, (+1)
UKIP 13%; (+1)

APP -24 (-4)

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 7:43 am

So it begins...

Let's assume for a minute that Yes wins and Alex Salmond pops down to the heart of the Beast (London) to negotiate. Which of his stated demands/dreams do the UK have to agree to and which of them can we tell him to go whistle?

howsillyofme · Post by **howsillyofme** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 7:57 am

Good Morning all

Big day today - and exciting.....trying to work out how to stay up for the results without being more useless than normal tomorrow

My guess for today is 53-47 in favour of No

To give my view on Spacedone's question:

My view is simple - the responsibility of Central Government is to get the best possible deal for the UK and not be nice to the Scots. At the end of the day it is their decision, the potential pitfalls have been well discussed and they will have chosen to believe Salmond over Brown.

The specifics are difficult to say as we will not have all the details and consequence analyses but the job of the UK Government is to look after its own citizens not those who think they can do better without us....after all we are all Tories down South aren't we

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 8:04 am

howsillyofme wrote:Good Morning all

Big day today - and exciting.....trying to work out how to stay up for the results without being more useless than normal tomorrow

My guess for today is 53-47 in favour of No

To give my view on Spacedome's question:

My view is simple - the responsibility of Central Government is to get the best possible deal for the UK and not be nice to the Scots. At the end of the day it is their decision, the potential pitfalls have been well discussed and they will have chosen to believe Salmond over Brown.

The specifics are difficult to say as we will not have all the details and consequence analyses but the job of the UK Government is to look after its own citizens not those who think they can do better without us....after all we are all Tories down South aren't we

The potential pitfalls have been well discussed and they will have chosen to believe Salmond over Brown.

Talking of which, this made me chuckle while eating toast and slurping my tea. From Dan Snow.

''The past has happened, it's real. That's why we write about it. Charlatans write about the future , it doesn't exist. So you can make it up''

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 8:47 am

Morning all.

Roger & others who have a close interest in education may be interested in this, the former Welsh education minister has put his side of GCSE grading in his new book.

''Leighton Andrews' book Ministering to Education: Secret emails reveal truth behind 2012 GCSE grading fiasco...

In exclusive extracts from Ministering to Education, published today in the Western Mail, Mr Andrews hits out at comments made by senior officials within Ofqual and accuses England’s independent regulator of “abandoning impartiality”.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... on-7789382

The Western Mail have published extracts, should be on Wales Online too but can't see the link at the moment.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 8:51 am

Just looking at the Scottish weather and weather starting cloudy in the north of the area but improving later. Not a bad forecast and decent temperatures.

Has anyone seen any comment on how the weather may help/hinder either the side in the indy referedum ?

We're normally told cold/rain hinders the Labour or working class vote, but in this case ?

JackPranker · Post by **JackPranker** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 8:55 am

letsskiptotheleft wrote:
howsillyofme wrote:Good Morning all

Big day today - and exciting.....trying to work out how to stay up for the results without being more useless than normal tomorrow

My guess for today is 53-47 in favour of No

To give my view on Spacedome's question:

My view is simple - the responsibility of Central Government is to get the best possible deal for the UK and not be nice to the Scots. At the end of the day it is their decision, the potential pitfalls have been well discussed and they will have chosen to believe Salmond over Brown.

The specifics are difficult to say as we will not have all the details and consequence analyses but the job of the UK Government is to look after its own citizens not those who think they can do better without us....after all we are all Tories down South aren't we

The potential pitfalls have been well discussed and they will have chosen to believe Salmond over Brown.
Talking of which, this made me chuckle while eating toast and slurping my tea. From Dan Snow.

''The past has happened, it's real. That's why we write about it. Charlatans write about the future , it doesn't exist. So you can make it up''

Damn those charlatans, like Ghandi, King, Luther...

You can't enter the past without travelling to the future.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:05 am

This is an interesting article.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 39756.html

It seems this will not end quickly.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:07 am

: daily-cartoon-20140918.jpg (71.61 KiB) Viewed 17821 times

Rather than ponder past activists' dreams for the future or venture into the area of metaphysics and perception of time, I shall lower the tone [as always] with this Independent cartoon.

Salmond, the Martin Luther King or Gandhi of our times, a compassionate visionary or an egotistical snake oil salesman ?
You decide. [Like the referendum vote, no grey areas allowed].

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:08 am

Good morning all.

How nice it would be if there was no more nonsense here about how the Yes campaigners are "violent" (to quote one poster from the other day) now that the Scottish police have (for the second time) censured the No campaign for indulging in inflammatory language and wasting police time, while the police and court records show that the few real incidents of violence and intimidation have come from that No campaign.

How nice it would be if those who do not support Scottish Independence could refrain from assuming that people who vote Yes are necessarily people who "believe" Salmond over Brown, who do not understand the risks, and who subscribe to the idea that should the Scots vote for their own self-determination, post-referendum negotiations should involve telling Scotland to "go whistle".

How nice it would be if people everywhere and anywhere could see that the very behaviour they condemn is exactly the same behaviour that they are indulging in; how civilised it would be if people who don't agree with others could apologise for accusing those who do not agree with them of being under the influence of mind-altering substances thus insulting people who struggle with addiction.

How nice it would be to have a haven from such polarisation, from tribalism, from the nastiness that has infected this whole issue; a place where a mature an sensible discussion could be had without the vicious nonsense that permeates the mainstream media; somewhere that chooses not to mistake decades of passion for home rule with strident nationalistic fervour.

I wonder where I can find such a place. I used to think it was here.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:11 am

Morning all...and apologies for the clunky effort at responding to a post from yesterday...

Ernst Remarx wrote:

: cm23.JPG (58.01 KiB) Viewed 17819 times

Tory Blur was a Murkydochian stooge (and still is - http://rt.com/usa/bohemian-blair-powell-guccifer-811/ - make no mistake - tin-foil hat or no, the Bohemian Grove exists, as do the Bilderbergers)

Everything he did was with one eye over his shoulder to make sure he wasn't 'upsetting' Newcorpse and the Banksters. The sycophancy and grovelling from supposedly the most powerful person in the land must have made Gordon Browns' stomach turn (especially when he finally got the reins of power....and found his nutsack dangling dangerously within reach of the flame-haired harpies razor-sharp tentacles)...and it meant that the 'NuLabour' governance was really attempting to shoehorn social justice and fairness into the Neo-Liberal agenda...which - although I disagreed with a lot of what they did, I could see that at least partially successful (Surestart/NHS etc). After Gordon saved the world (OK - it was a slip of the tongue - but - without his intervention, the financial ponzi scheme that masquerades as the 'world economy' would have melted...and, I believe(TM), would've finished the anti-human experiment early. Which is why (in my fevered imagination, with a tin-foil hat on

) I believe(TM) there was no way they could let Labour win the last election - hence the complete destruction of him and his legacy...until now, of course

Very much in support of Ernst and others wishing our brothers and sisters in Scotland a peaceful day and an immediate reconciliation (whilst hoping for 'No').

...and apologies again for clunkiness....

...from yesterday...Lonewolfie wrote:

"Mr Carney said that the Bank would not consider raising interest rates from their current low of 0.5% until unemployment had fallen to 7% or below."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26153122" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohso wrote:
Ah - but I read recently that they said they only need to assume/anticipate the figure is going to 7% or below. They don't actually have to wait until it does.

Hi Ohso…sorry…was being my usual obtuse self - the figures quoted for yesterday are a drop from 6.4% to 6.2%...I was trying to say that the 7% (like pretty much anything else we're going to get from an employee of the Bank of International Settlements) is a load of hogwash….but I do wonder whether they (the Banksters) were prepared for the total lack of control and economic understanding emanating from the Coalition of Incompetence.

Thanks for the editing Refitman...as I said...clunkiness

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:16 am

ephemerid wrote:I wonder where I can find such a place. I used to think it was here.

It still is. DM on Twitter.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:20 am

JackPranker wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:
howsillyofme wrote:Good Morning all

Big day today - and exciting.....trying to work out how to stay up for the results without being more useless than normal tomorrow

My guess for today is 53-47 in favour of No

To give my view on Spacedome's question:

My view is simple - the responsibility of Central Government is to get the best possible deal for the UK and not be nice to the Scots. At the end of the day it is their decision, the potential pitfalls have been well discussed and they will have chosen to believe Salmond over Brown.

The specifics are difficult to say as we will not have all the details and consequence analyses but the job of the UK Government is to look after its own citizens not those who think they can do better without us....after all we are all Tories down South aren't we

The potential pitfalls have been well discussed and they will have chosen to believe Salmond over Brown.
Talking of which, this made me chuckle while eating toast and slurping my tea. From Dan Snow.

''The past has happened, it's real. That's why we write about it. Charlatans write about the future , it doesn't exist. So you can make it up''
Damn those charlatans, like Ghandi, King, Luther...

You can't enter the past without travelling to the future.

"He who controls the present controls the past
He who controls the past, controls the future"
The Handbook of Societal Destruction and Nose-in-Troughery

Edited to add - all Murkydochian politicians - not aimed at the referendum in particular

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:22 am

Anybody staying up for the results here tonight ?

I'll probably listen on my little radio during the night, but Radio 5 reception is terrible in the early hours, not sure if Radio 4 will cover it as at least that is clearer/

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:24 am

Thanks to admin, whoever it was, for adjusting the image size.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:25 am

Morning all.
Assuming a Yes, do we expect negotiations to complete prior to the general election?

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:29 am

yahyah wrote:Anybody staying up for the results here tonight ?

I'll probably listen on my little radio during the night, but Radio 5 reception is terrible in the early hours, not sure if Radio 4 will cover it as at least that is clearer/

Not me.I stay up until 11.30 when it's time to put the puppy to bed,and how sad is that,then up at 6ish to let her out for a pee.But I will be logging on once the coffee is on.
Don't you just love September?My favourite month.Had a lovely,lovely walk with the dogs this morning,very damp air,cobwebs,leaves are starting to fall.
Morning all.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:33 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.
Assuming a Yes, do we expect negotiations to complete prior to the general election?

Can't see it myself.Going to be a lot of argy bargy.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:35 am

Edinburgh and Glasgow due in at 5am, Aberdeen 6am. Right to the wire!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:36 am

Rebecca wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.
Assuming a Yes, do we expect negotiations to complete prior to the general election?
Can't see it myself.Going to be a lot of argy bargy.

Agree, & how much would it impinge on general election campaigning or even become part of the ge campaign as to what each party would give way/hold firm to.

[& puppy walking sounds idyllic]

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:40 am

StephenDolan wrote:Edinburgh and Glasgow due in at 5am, Aberdeen 6am. Right to the wire!

So maybe better to go to bed and set the alarm for 5 am then.

Being tribalist, [part of human nature] I do hope Gordon Brown's fantastic speech yesterday has helped rouse some more to vote No.

Stay part of the UK, help get the Tories out and fight for all the people who need help in the UK.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:47 am

Morning all.

I know I say this often but I simply don't understand the reasoning behind some of the decisions around academies.

Take E Act. Widely reported months ago that they were losing 10 schools to other sponsors. Given that they operated in 7 regions with only 34 schools, you would have thought that the schools removed would have (i) reduced the number of regions operated in and/or (ii) taken away the failing schools.

So, today it's reported...

Headteacher of failing secondary school in Brent steps down

http://www.kilburntimes.co.uk/news/scho ... _1_3771355

Phil Hearne has stepped down as the executive principal of Crest Girls Academy and Crest Boys Academy in Crest Road.

The school was previously known as John Kelly Boys’ School and John Kelly Girls’ school until it was taken over by E-ACT in 2009.

Both schools moved into a £40m new building this month after merging to become Crest Academy.

So not only were E Act allowed to hang on to these, they were one of the earliest schools taken over but are still failing. Where's the logic behind this?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:48 am

yahyah wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Edinburgh and Glasgow due in at 5am, Aberdeen 6am. Right to the wire!

So maybe better to go to bed and set the alarm for 5 am then.

Being tribalist, [part of human nature] I do hope Gordon Brown's fantastic speech yesterday has helped rouse some more to vote No.

Stay part of the UK, help get the Tories out and fight for all the people who need help in the UK.

That's my plan. Interestingly the early declarers are very likely to be Yes. Political commentary of narrative beware.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:50 am

yahyah wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.
Assuming a Yes, do we expect negotiations to complete prior to the general election?
Can't see it myself.Going to be a lot of argy bargy.

Agree, & how much would it impinge on general election campaigning or even become part of the ge campaign as to what each party would give way/hold firm to.

[& puppy walking sounds idyllic]

Indeed. My head hurts thinking of the possibilities of how the Scottish seats play out at the next general election.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:52 am

Are we expecting any type of politics live blog at the other place today?
Judging by a lot of the comments BTL yesterday I can imagine the police taking an interest in social media photos of votes being cast in polling booths.

JackPranker · Post by **JackPranker** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:58 am

yahyah wrote:
daily-cartoon-20140918.jpg
Rather than ponder past activists' dreams for the future or venture into the area of metaphysics and perception of time, I shall lower the tone [as always] with this Independent cartoon.

Salmond, the Martin Luther King or Gandhi of our times, a compassionate visionary or an egotistical snake oil salesman ?
You decide. [Like the referendum vote, no grey areas allowed].

I was ridiculing (Lord) Dan Snow's statement about those looking to the future being charlatans. If you think anyone sane believes Salmond belongs in the company of Ghandi and Dr King you have it wrong. Seriously wrong.

I'm somewhat lacking my usual sense of humour today. That cartoon (and others) are not helping. *sigh*

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:00 am

ephemerid wrote:Good morning all.

How nice it would be if there was no more nonsense here about how the Yes campaigners are "violent" (to quote one poster from the other day) now that the Scottish police have (for the second time) censured the No campaign for indulging in inflammatory language and wasting police time, while the police and court records show that the few real incidents of violence and intimidation have come from that No campaign.

How nice it would be if those who do not support Scottish Independence could refrain from assuming that people who vote Yes are necessarily people who "believe" Salmond over Brown, who do not understand the risks, and who subscribe to the idea that should the Scots vote for their own self-determination, post-referendum negotiations should involve telling Scotland to "go whistle".

How nice it would be if people everywhere and anywhere could see that the very behaviour they condemn is exactly the same behaviour that they are indulging in; how civilised it would be if people who don't agree with others could apologise for accusing those who do not agree with them of being under the influence of mind-altering substances thus insulting people who struggle with addiction.

How nice it would be to have a haven from such polarisation, from tribalism, from the nastiness that has infected this whole issue; a place where a mature an sensible discussion could be had without the vicious nonsense that permeates the mainstream media; somewhere that chooses not to mistake decades of passion for home rule with strident nationalistic fervour.

I wonder where I can find such a place. I used to think it was here.

Ephemerid,I am quite puzzled at the attitude from some that every single person who says that they have been intimidated by Yes campaigners is telling lies,and that No campaigners having abuse hurled at them didn't happen,even though filmed at the time.When I lived in Scotland,the anti English sentiment ran right through daily life,like 'Blackpool' in a stick of rock,yet any time I have read a comment describing the same thing that person is either called a liar or that they are in the employ of the no campaign.
I am certain that there are problems on both sides of the campaign,but seriously,is every poster,journalist,film crew,politician etc lying but all Yes campaigners wearing halos?This doesn't seem like your usual balanced view of things.
If the police in England stated that there had only been disruptions by one group of campaigners,would you believe them?You are certainly giving the scottish police an easy time here.
If there is a Yes vote both teams of negotiators will be working to get the best deal for their country,I don't expect it to be a friendly split at all.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:00 am

Good morning.

Out of the blue (well, grey-ish) we've got absolutely torrential rain\hail. It's making a terrific roaring noise as it comes down with some occasional thunder thrown in to add to the drama. I hope all dog and puppy walkers are in the clear, weather-wise, or are at least safely gathered in.

Anyway, is the weather some sort of portent? As ever, I'll try to keep going for as long as possible for the results - although going to bed then getting up very early,as suggested, seems like a good idea. I usually have the radio on in bed (yes, I know, pyjamas would be more comfortable) for such occasions but the reception isn't very good in my boudoir, which is irritating.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:06 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morning.

Out of the blue (well, grey-ish) we've got absolutely torrential rain\hail. It's making a terrific roaring noise as it comes down with some occasional thunder thrown in to add to the drama. I hope all dog and puppy walkers are in the clear, weather-wise, or are at least safely gathered in.

Anyway, is the weather some sort of portent? As ever, I'll try to keep going for as long as possible for the results - although going to bed then getting up very early,as suggested, seems like a good idea. I usually have the radio on in bed (yes, I know, pyjamas would be more comfortable) for such occasions but the reception isn't very good in my boudoir, which is irritating.

Your boudoir must be *huge* if it has a reception

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:12 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.
Assuming a Yes, do we expect negotiations to complete prior to the general election?

No chance - indeed it is generally believed that the "official" spring 2016 date for independence is distinctly optimistic.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:15 am

Oh, dear...another E Act had an inspection - a s.8 after one putting them in special measures in January.

The governing body has been reconstituted and oversees the running of three academies in the same academy chain.

So much for local governing bodies. But

The new governing body consists of some experienced members who bring useful skills. They have quite rightly raised some concerns and have challenged school leaders about the performance of the school. There are currently no parents serving on the governing body, which breaks the terms of the academy’s funding agreement.

Oops. that's just incompetence on the trust's part.

At the last full inspection governors were requested to undertake an external review. To date this has not been completed.

And again. We did ours without being told. Schools get told yet still don't do it.

And this again was a school that E Act were being allowed to keep.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:17 am

StephenDolan wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morning.

Out of the blue (well, grey-ish) we've got absolutely torrential rain\hail. It's making a terrific roaring noise as it comes down with some occasional thunder thrown in to add to the drama. I hope all dog and puppy walkers are in the clear, weather-wise, or are at least safely gathered in.

Anyway, is the weather some sort of portent? As ever, I'll try to keep going for as long as possible for the results - although going to bed then getting up very early,as suggested, seems like a good idea. I usually have the radio on in bed (yes, I know, pyjamas would be more comfortable) for such occasions but the reception isn't very good in my boudoir, which is irritating.
Your boudoir must be *huge* if it has a reception

Ha! Business is brisk but it plays havoc with the flooring . . .

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:18 am

I see there is no readers edition at the "other place" yet.......

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:22 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I see there is no readers edition at the "other place" yet.......

Probably got fed up with that troll accusing me of asking for posts to be removed but not either giving any evidence of it (I don't unless racist or bigoted) or saying they were wrong.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:27 am

Don't forget to spare a thought for David Cameron who is undergoing a new and stressful experience today. If I remember correctly, he is working in No 10.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:30 am

PorFavor wrote:Don't forget to spare a thought for David Cameron who is undergoing a new and stressful experience today. If I remember correctly, he is working in No 10.

Correction. He's at No 10.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am

Rebecca wrote:This doesn't seem like your usual balanced view of things.

In Ephe's defence (not that she needs it) I understand totally how she feels. I have today walked away from another forum for similar reasons and, yes, I was probably being over sensitive and not being as balanced as usual; but people on both sides have been subjected to abuse (mainly verbal, but also physical) and some of are feeling pretty raw as a result. Perhaps asking for a little sensitivity, understanding and forbearance is not such a bad thing at the moment?

RogerOThornhill wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:I see there is no readers edition at the "other place" yet.......

Probably got fed up with that troll accusing me of asking for posts to be removed but not either giving any evidence of it (I don't unless racist or bigoted) or saying they were wrong.[/quote]

Rusty's sock puppet? Thought it was ironic that my response to it's accusation that I was reporting all the posts vanished without trace within minutes.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:36 am

PorFavor wrote:Don't forget to spare a thought for David Cameron who is undergoing a new and stressful experience today. If I remember correctly, he is working in No 10.

"Jeremy, you have got a plan for what happens if they vote Yes?"
"No Prime Minister. You specifically told us not to prepare one"
"ARRGGHHH!! I didn't mean it! Start on it now! I want it finished by tomorrow morning!"
"Only joking Prime Minister. Do you think we're stupid?"
"Phew!"

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:38 am

ephemerid wrote:Good morning all.

How nice it would be if there was no more nonsense here about how the Yes campaigners are "violent" (to quote one poster from the other day) now that the Scottish police have (for the second time) censured the No campaign for indulging in inflammatory language and wasting police time, while the police and court records show that the few real incidents of violence and intimidation have come from that No campaign.

How nice it would be if those who do not support Scottish Independence could refrain from assuming that people who vote Yes are necessarily people who "believe" Salmond over Brown, who do not understand the risks, and who subscribe to the idea that should the Scots vote for their own self-determination, post-referendum negotiations should involve telling Scotland to "go whistle".

How nice it would be if people everywhere and anywhere could see that the very behaviour they condemn is exactly the same behaviour that they are indulging in; how civilised it would be if people who don't agree with others could apologise for accusing those who do not agree with them of being under the influence of mind-altering substances thus insulting people who struggle with addiction.

How nice it would be to have a haven from such polarisation, from tribalism, from the nastiness that has infected this whole issue; a place where a mature an sensible discussion could be had without the vicious nonsense that permeates the mainstream media; somewhere that chooses not to mistake decades of passion for home rule with strident nationalistic fervour.

I wonder where I can find such a place. I used to think it was here.

I would agree that the violence ascribed to both sides is overblown, which is why I always stick to the central economic arguments, as I have no doubt that Scots are quite capable of running their own state independently. However, it is the economic arguments which are key, and an independent Scotland would be independent only in the sense of the freedom to make decisions. those decisions will still be heavily proscribed by the economic circumstances surrounding a country which is reliant upon factors beyond its control or the control of its leaders, much the same as the UK at present. Fervour and enthusiasm on either side was always going to be a major factor in the referendum - how could it be otherwise? - however a rational examination of the forces that will act upon an independent Scotland seems to have gone by the board to a certain degree. The references to Project Fear have not helped in this respect, and my concern is Scots choosing their future shape based not upon rationalism, but upon other factors which will, I suspect, be far less relevant than some seem to believe.

Just my two pen'north.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 11:02 am

Rebecca wrote:
ephemerid wrote:Good morning all.

How nice it would be if there was no more nonsense here about how the Yes campaigners are "violent" (to quote one poster from the other day) now that the Scottish police have (for the second time) censured the No campaign for indulging in inflammatory language and wasting police time, while the police and court records show that the few real incidents of violence and intimidation have come from that No campaign.

How nice it would be if those who do not support Scottish Independence could refrain from assuming that people who vote Yes are necessarily people who "believe" Salmond over Brown, who do not understand the risks, and who subscribe to the idea that should the Scots vote for their own self-determination, post-referendum negotiations should involve telling Scotland to "go whistle".

How nice it would be if people everywhere and anywhere could see that the very behaviour they condemn is exactly the same behaviour that they are indulging in; how civilised it would be if people who don't agree with others could apologise for accusing those who do not agree with them of being under the influence of mind-altering substances thus insulting people who struggle with addiction.

How nice it would be to have a haven from such polarisation, from tribalism, from the nastiness that has infected this whole issue; a place where a mature an sensible discussion could be had without the vicious nonsense that permeates the mainstream media; somewhere that chooses not to mistake decades of passion for home rule with strident nationalistic fervour.

I wonder where I can find such a place. I used to think it was here.

Ephemerid,I am quite puzzled at the attitude from some that every single person who says that they have been intimidated by Yes campaigners is telling lies,and that No campaigners having abuse hurled at them didn't happen,even though filmed at the time.When I lived in Scotland,the anti English sentiment ran right through daily life,like 'Blackpool' in a stick of rock,yet any time I have read a comment describing the same thing that person is either called a liar or that they are in the employ of the no campaign.
I am certain that there are problems on both sides of the campaign,but seriously,is every poster,journalist,film crew,politician etc lying but all Yes campaigners wearing halos?This doesn't seem like your usual balanced view of things.
If the police in England stated that there had only been disruptions by one group of campaigners,would you believe them?You are certainly giving the scottish police an easy time here.
If there is a Yes vote both teams of negotiators will be working to get the best deal for their country,I don't expect it to be a friendly split at all.

Good morning, Rebecca.

Nowhere have I suggested that people who say they have been intimidated is telling lies - in fact, I have been clear in many previous posts here on the subject that there is fault on both sides.
Nor have I suggested that Yes campaigners wear Halos, neither have I lost my mind and become unbalanced in my views on this or anything else.
I am not giving the Scottish police and "easy time" I am simply pointing out that they have issued two statements on this which indicate that the intimidation the No campaign has reported has been grossly exaggerated; and that their records and the court cases applicable to the issue show that the boot is actually on the other foot.

It is unfortunate that you had such an uncomfortable time when living in Scotland. Those who were so unpleasant to you then could just as easily be in either political camp. I get a fair bit of anti-English stuff here in Wales and treat it with the contempt it deserves and some pointed humour to highlight how ridiculous it is.

What I am saying this morning is that I am not comfortable with the accusations of all manner of nastiness attributed by the MSM and people here to the Yes campaign, when the evidence shows that the reverse is the case.
I am also saying, as I have several times, that whilst there is right and wrong on both sides - as would be expected in a situation like this - there is no excuse for some of the remarks I have seen here.
One poster in particular owes an apology for an especially pejorative remark made the other day.

It is obvious that most here do not want Scottish Independence. That's fine - what is not fine is for people to behave in exactly the same way as the people they accuse of lying/fantasising/intimidating/etc. then pretending it's somehow different.
The truth is that both campaigns are guilty of this to varying degrees - and it is also the truth that our media are not unbiased, and so it would appear are most of the posters here.

I remain as "well-balanced" as ever - in that I have chips on both shoulders - but I am beginning to understand why some much-loved and much-missed contributors here decided to move on. The issue then was how Labour have failed - and continue to fail - in informing their members and the nation exactly what they will do on social security should they win the next GE; I was not alone in my disappointment, and I was quite upset by the upset that the arguments here caused some of our number to depart because they felt attacked (with some justification) by people more interested in tribalism than the issues under discussion. At the time, I tired to be a peacemaker and persevered with my postings here; but I'm not convinced it's worth it any more.

What is happening today is a monumental occasion which will, however the vote turns out, change politics in the UK forever.
Whilst I am for Scottish Independence, I am aware that few here think it's a good thing. However, that does not excuse them from mirroring the antics of those they accuse; nor do the snide remarks from some quarters do this forum any credit.

On the grounds that our current government and their media mouthpieces are known to have lied on a massive scale on many issues to the people who pay them so handsomely to work in their interests, I find it astonishing that they should be so easily believed on this by people who I thought had open minds.

I am inclined to stay away from here for a while as a result. Some might say that divisions such as those we are seeing on indyref are the fault of a polarising debate - I think if that's true perhaps it's a good thing. At least we know where we stand.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 11:03 am

yahyah wrote:Anybody staying up for the results here tonight ?

I'll probably listen on my little radio during the night, but Radio 5 reception is terrible in the early hours, not sure if Radio 4 will cover it as at least that is clearer/

Morning folks,
I wrecked my ankle last time I was in the Cairngorms, and had ankle reconstruction surgery 4 weeks ago. Two non weight bearing weeks to go, then the cast comes off. The upside of this is that I keep waking up all night either rebuilding my pillow nest or looking for painkillers. So this evening, I'll tune in every time I wake up & see how things are going. Perhaps one of the technicerati could start a new page at midnight for rolling updates?
As an aside, I can see the border ridge from my house & often walk/cycle back & forward across the border, so there's an added interest for me. Whatever happens, as I said over in the other place, I hope the aftermath isn't too divisive.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 11:26 am

ephemerid wrote:Good morning all.

How nice it would be if there was no more nonsense here about how the Yes campaigners are "violent" (to quote one poster from the other day) now that the Scottish police have (for the second time) censured the No campaign for indulging in inflammatory language and wasting police time, while the police and court records show that the few real incidents of violence and intimidation have come from that No campaign.

How nice it would be if those who do not support Scottish Independence could refrain from assuming that people who vote Yes are necessarily people who "believe" Salmond over Brown, who do not understand the risks, and who subscribe to the idea that should the Scots vote for their own self-determination, post-referendum negotiations should involve telling Scotland to "go whistle".

How nice it would be if people everywhere and anywhere could see that the very behaviour they condemn is exactly the same behaviour that they are indulging in; how civilised it would be if people who don't agree with others could apologise for accusing those who do not agree with them of being under the influence of mind-altering substances thus insulting people who struggle with addiction.

How nice it would be to have a haven from such polarisation, from tribalism, from the nastiness that has infected this whole issue; a place where a mature an sensible discussion could be had without the vicious nonsense that permeates the mainstream media; somewhere that chooses not to mistake decades of passion for home rule with strident nationalistic fervour.

I wonder where I can find such a place. I used to think it was here.

Sorry but I'm baffled.
I have seen very little of these accusations articulated here, on this board. I have seen them over at the Guardian and indeed have been subjected to it myself.
Are we saying that posters on this board cannot express their feelings? I'm upset and angry that the Scots are jeopardising MY (and my grandkids) future for a silver spun ideal that I have no say in. That has made me hostile to giving them everything they want. Tough cookie. Am I not allowed to say that?
I'm off if that's the case, because I too thought this was a place where we could share thoughts and ideas - and find support when needed. Seems not, and that only approved ideas and opinions are welcome.
The black dog has over taken me again. Won't be back for a while
Bye.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 11:34 am

I miss exit polls. Although I can understand the reasoning behind why they're no longer taken and publicised.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 11:49 am

AngryAsWell wrote:
ephemerid wrote:Good morning all.

How nice it would be if there was no more nonsense here about how the Yes campaigners are "violent" (to quote one poster from the other day) now that the Scottish police have (for the second time) censured the No campaign for indulging in inflammatory language and wasting police time, while the police and court records show that the few real incidents of violence and intimidation have come from that No campaign.

How nice it would be if those who do not support Scottish Independence could refrain from assuming that people who vote Yes are necessarily people who "believe" Salmond over Brown, who do not understand the risks, and who subscribe to the idea that should the Scots vote for their own self-determination, post-referendum negotiations should involve telling Scotland to "go whistle".

How nice it would be if people everywhere and anywhere could see that the very behaviour they condemn is exactly the same behaviour that they are indulging in; how civilised it would be if people who don't agree with others could apologise for accusing those who do not agree with them of being under the influence of mind-altering substances thus insulting people who struggle with addiction.

How nice it would be to have a haven from such polarisation, from tribalism, from the nastiness that has infected this whole issue; a place where a mature an sensible discussion could be had without the vicious nonsense that permeates the mainstream media; somewhere that chooses not to mistake decades of passion for home rule with strident nationalistic fervour.

I wonder where I can find such a place. I used to think it was here.
Sorry but I'm baffled.
I have seen very little of these accusations articulated here, on this board. I have seen them over at the Guardian and indeed have been subjected to it myself.
Are we saying that posters on this board cannot express their feelings? I'm upset and angry that the Scots are jeopardising MY (and my grandkids) future for a silver spun ideal that I have no say in. That has made me hostile to giving them everything they want. Tough cookie. Am I not allowed to say that?
I'm off if that's the case, because I too thought this was a place where we could share thoughts and ideas - and find support when needed. Seems not, and that only approved ideas and opinions are welcome.
The black dog has over taken me again. Won't be back for a while
Bye.

Deep breath everybody.

The debate has brought out the best and worst in people in a large number of places, and FTN should remain above the fray. We're all intelligent people, and we all need to articulate our feelings and thoughts in a manner that others shouldn't find threatening or potentially offensive. All us here are bound by what we have in common and our differences need to be respected.

Now let's move on.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 11:56 am

So, a woman dies in an ambulance outside Morriston Hospital and it's one of the top news stories on the BBC before any inquest or investigation has taken place. WTF? How many people across the UK died in Ambulances outside hospitals yesterday. I wager its more than that solitary welsh case. I see the tory rebuttal to Ed's NHS speech is being put in place before he even utters a word.

I'm starting to think Scotland voting yes is maybe not so bad after all.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 12:03 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
ephemerid wrote:Good morning all.

How nice it would be if there was no more nonsense here about how the Yes campaigners are "violent" (to quote one poster from the other day) now that the Scottish police have (for the second time) censured the No campaign for indulging in inflammatory language and wasting police time, while the police and court records show that the few real incidents of violence and intimidation have come from that No campaign.

How nice it would be if those who do not support Scottish Independence could refrain from assuming that people who vote Yes are necessarily people who "believe" Salmond over Brown, who do not understand the risks, and who subscribe to the idea that should the Scots vote for their own self-determination, post-referendum negotiations should involve telling Scotland to "go whistle".

How nice it would be if people everywhere and anywhere could see that the very behaviour they condemn is exactly the same behaviour that they are indulging in; how civilised it would be if people who don't agree with others could apologise for accusing those who do not agree with them of being under the influence of mind-altering substances thus insulting people who struggle with addiction.

How nice it would be to have a haven from such polarisation, from tribalism, from the nastiness that has infected this whole issue; a place where a mature an sensible discussion could be had without the vicious nonsense that permeates the mainstream media; somewhere that chooses not to mistake decades of passion for home rule with strident nationalistic fervour.

I wonder where I can find such a place. I used to think it was here.
Sorry but I'm baffled.
I have seen very little of these accusations articulated here, on this board. I have seen them over at the Guardian and indeed have been subjected to it myself.
Are we saying that posters on this board cannot express their feelings? I'm upset and angry that the Scots are jeopardising MY (and my grandkids) future for a silver spun ideal that I have no say in. That has made me hostile to giving them everything they want. Tough cookie. Am I not allowed to say that?
I'm off if that's the case, because I too thought this was a place where we could share thoughts and ideas - and find support when needed. Seems not, and that only approved ideas and opinions are welcome.
The black dog has over taken me again. Won't be back for a while
Bye.

I had problems with my password reset so have had to re-register - I am the original 'howsillyofme' though

I too am a bit baffled by epehmerid's post as I have exhibited no hostility to the 'Yes' side at all but have received a bit of ad hominem in return. I lived in Scotland for many years, many of my friends are voting for Independence and I am sympathetic to the emotional side

In the end though I am a British Englishman and if the Scots vote to go tonight then I expect my Government to get the best deal for those of us remaining in the UK - we have areas in thEngland Wales and NI that are more important than supporting the Scots Independence. That is all - be fair but not generous.....the risks have been spelt out and if they are accepted then sobeit.

The one group of people who have not really been mentioned are us 60 million remaining Brits. If a Yes is voted for then we will be the ones who will start having a voice and it may be that Salmond doesn't find he can carry through on his promises about currency, debt, Europe and the rest.

The No side and the political parties, in the event of a No, also will have a problem in delivering what they had promised and I would expect the Scots to try to hold them to account

I wish the Scots well in whatever they decide but don't expect the remaining Brits to roll over - and we will hold most of the aces when it comes to the negotiations - Salmond's bellicose rhetoric will be difficult to back up I think. I also am fed up hearing that the English are all right-wing and that the Scots will form a socialist paradise. I lived there and am highly skeptical of some of the romanticism of the country. I saw very little difference between Glasgow and Liverpool or Edinburgh and York.

The same arguments against Independence are those I make to those wanting to pull out of the EU - do not expect to walk away without a price being exacted to access some of the benefits. What price a currency union?

In the end we disagree - so what. It is not the end of the world. I do not apologise for my views and I do not think I have been hostile to the Scots who want Independence, rather just pointing out things from someone who lookis in from the English side

I will not post again on this until tomorrow and we can start looking at the realitz rather than whatiffery. It will be a rollercoaster whatever happens and for us politicos good fun to watch

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 12:16 pm

I'd prefer it if nobody did it, but there is an ignore function, (I think it's called friends and foes on here). But I prefer to hear everyone's point of view personally.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 12:33 pm

ErnstRemarx wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
ephemerid wrote:Good morning all.

How nice it would be if there was no more nonsense here about how the Yes campaigners are "violent" (to quote one poster from the other day) now that the Scottish police have (for the second time) censured the No campaign for indulging in inflammatory language and wasting police time, while the police and court records show that the few real incidents of violence and intimidation have come from that No campaign.

How nice it would be if those who do not support Scottish Independence could refrain from assuming that people who vote Yes are necessarily people who "believe" Salmond over Brown, who do not understand the risks, and who subscribe to the idea that should the Scots vote for their own self-determination, post-referendum negotiations should involve telling Scotland to "go whistle".

How nice it would be if people everywhere and anywhere could see that the very behaviour they condemn is exactly the same behaviour that they are indulging in; how civilised it would be if people who don't agree with others could apologise for accusing those who do not agree with them of being under the influence of mind-altering substances thus insulting people who struggle with addiction.

How nice it would be to have a haven from such polarisation, from tribalism, from the nastiness that has infected this whole issue; a place where a mature an sensible discussion could be had without the vicious nonsense that permeates the mainstream media; somewhere that chooses not to mistake decades of passion for home rule with strident nationalistic fervour.

I wonder where I can find such a place. I used to think it was here.
Sorry but I'm baffled.
I have seen very little of these accusations articulated here, on this board. I have seen them over at the Guardian and indeed have been subjected to it myself.
Are we saying that posters on this board cannot express their feelings? I'm upset and angry that the Scots are jeopardising MY (and my grandkids) future for a silver spun ideal that I have no say in. That has made me hostile to giving them everything they want. Tough cookie. Am I not allowed to say that?
I'm off if that's the case, because I too thought this was a place where we could share thoughts and ideas - and find support when needed. Seems not, and that only approved ideas and opinions are welcome.
The black dog has over taken me again. Won't be back for a while
Bye.
Deep breath everybody.

The debate has brought out the best and worst in people in a large number of places, and FTN should remain above the fray. We're all intelligent people, and we all need to articulate our feelings and thoughts in a manner that others shouldn't find threatening or potentially offensive. All us here are bound by what we have in common and our differences need to be respected.

Now let's move on.

I wonder is this how revolution begins?

When the run on Northern Rock happened way back when, my late father texted me with the words 'Marx was right! This is the end of Capitalism.'

Today is one of the aftershocks of that banking crisis which has never really gone away. Whatever the vote, we are seeing historical process in action. In 30 or 40 years maybe historians will be able to get some perspective on what is happening now. One thing is certain History will not view Cameron kindly.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 12:40 pm

JackPranker wrote:
yahyah wrote:
daily-cartoon-20140918.jpg
Rather than ponder past activists' dreams for the future or venture into the area of metaphysics and perception of time, I shall lower the tone [as always] with this Independent cartoon.

Salmond, the Martin Luther King or Gandhi of our times, a compassionate visionary or an egotistical snake oil salesman ?
You decide. [Like the referendum vote, no grey areas allowed].
I was ridiculing (Lord) Dan Snow's statement about those looking to the future being charlatans. If you think anyone sane believes Salmond belongs in the company of Ghandi and Dr King you have it wrong. Seriously wrong.

I'm somewhat lacking my usual sense of humour today. That cartoon (and others) are not helping. *sigh*

But Jack,why are the cartoons anymore depressing/offensive etc than cameron portrayed as a condomhead/little boy blue thing,Ed M as a skeletal panda,and all of the other irreverent satirical political cartoons?
I bet if we ever get to the point of a EU ref ,cheered on by Farage there will be a vast number of cartoons of a similar nature.It's what they do.

JackPranker · Post by **JackPranker** » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 12:46 pm

Rebecca wrote:
JackPranker wrote:
yahyah wrote:
daily-cartoon-20140918.jpg
Rather than ponder past activists' dreams for the future or venture into the area of metaphysics and perception of time, I shall lower the tone [as always] with this Independent cartoon.

Salmond, the Martin Luther King or Gandhi of our times, a compassionate visionary or an egotistical snake oil salesman ?
You decide. [Like the referendum vote, no grey areas allowed].
I was ridiculing (Lord) Dan Snow's statement about those looking to the future being charlatans. If you think anyone sane believes Salmond belongs in the company of Ghandi and Dr King you have it wrong. Seriously wrong.

I'm somewhat lacking my usual sense of humour today. That cartoon (and others) are not helping. *sigh*

But Jack,why are the cartoons anymore depressing/offensive etc than cameron portrayed as a condomhead/little boy blue thing,Ed M as a skeletal panda,and all of the other irreverent satirical political cartoons?
I bet if we ever get to the point of a EU ref ,cheered on by Farage there will be a vast number of cartoons of a similar nature.It's what they do.

Are the English depicted as a nation of condom wearers?