Thursday 20h August 2015

Post by **refitman** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 7:09 am

Morning all.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 7:23 am

Good morfternoon.

Leaked notes reveal Labour ignored legal advice over new membership

Party vulnerable to legal action after documents reveal senior members disregarded advice of lawyers to add extra verification stage for new members (Guardian)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... membership

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 7:31 am

Re the above -

Using past canvass returns to follow up\verify people's true motivation for joining up to vote sounds a bit far-fetched to me - but there you go.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 8:10 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Leaked notes reveal Labour ignored legal advice over new membership

Party vulnerable to legal action after documents reveal senior members disregarded advice of lawyers to add extra verification stage for new members (Guardian)
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... membership

It's interesting, isn't it?

The headline's misleading - the party didn't "ignore" legal advice; the committee voted and the motion to act on advice wasn't passed.
I am wondering what the "extra stage of verification" the lawyers suggested actually was - the article doesn't say.

Ben Bradshaw is quoted as saying that 10% of the registered supporters in his constituency "voted strongly against Labour". I believe this, because I think Bradshaw is a decent man and it seems his local party has scrutinised their figures carefully - but what I don't know is what that 10% actually represents in terms of numbers. If his constituency has thousands of new supporters (as opposed to fully paid up members) that 10% could be significant - especially if it's replicated everywhere else.

According to Wintour and Mason, so far 1,800 people have been "weeded out as infiltrators". Other sources say it's 1,200.
The electorate is 600,000 now.
Before the general election, there were 200,000 full members; now there are nearly 300,000. I don't know how many of those new 100,000 joined after the contest began - if anyone knows, could you post the figures here? Ta muchly.
There are 189,000 affiliated supporters; but that figure apparently hasn't changed appreciably since the GE.

The problem seems to be with registered supporters (people now able to vote thanks to the Collins Review and the new system)
There are 120,000 of these - and they are the people whose status is going through the verification process, in the main.
So far some of these people have been judged to be entryists/infiltrators/whatever.

Is this a problem? Suppose there is 1% of the whole electorate - 6,000 people - who are entryists. Would that significantly affect the result? I'm inclined to think that it would only be an issue if the vote was very very close.
Say Corbyn gets 51% of the first preferences, would it be right to re-run the contest on the grounds that 1% of the voters were entryists? Or would that depend on how the votes were split between the others?

Labour says the verification process is robust (I hope it is) but so far it has produced a figure that is a tenth of what Bradshaw has found in his constituency. Most of the other stuff about entryism quoted in the article is anecdotal; but what Bradshaw is saying seems to be based on a diligent analysis of his voters. What we don't know is how that 10% translates into numbers.
If his 10% was replicated everywhere, that's 60,000 people - is that a problem?

I'd appreciate it if AK or someone who knows more about all this would help me out here. Is this important?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 8:15 am

https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/03/05/ven ... ian-legacy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://labourlist.org/2013/03/thank-you-hugo-chavez/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 8:19 am

ephemerid wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Leaked notes reveal Labour ignored legal advice over new membership

Party vulnerable to legal action after documents reveal senior members disregarded advice of lawyers to add extra verification stage for new members (Guardian)
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... membership

It's interesting, isn't it?

The headline's misleading - the party didn't "ignore" legal advice; the committee voted and the motion to act on advice wasn't passed.
I am wondering what the "extra stage of verification" the lawyers suggested actually was - the article doesn't say.

Ben Bradshaw is quoted as saying that 10% of the registered supporters in his constituency "voted strongly against Labour". I believe this, because I think Bradshaw is a decent man and it seems his local party has scrutinised their figures carefully - but what I don't know is what that 10% actually represents in terms of numbers. If his constituency has thousands of new supporters (as opposed to fully paid up members) that 10% could be significant - especially if it's replicated everywhere else.

According to Wintour and Mason, so far 1,800 people have been "weeded out as infiltrators". Other sources say it's 1,200.
The electorate is 600,000 now.
Before the general election, there were 200,000 full members; now there are nearly 300,000. I don't know how many of those new 100,000 joined after the contest began - if anyone knows, could you post the figures here? Ta muchly.
There are 189,000 affiliated supporters; but that figure apparently hasn't changed appreciably since the GE.

The problem seems to be with registered supporters (people now able to vote thanks to the Collins Review and the new system)
There are 120,000 of these - and they are the people whose status is going through the verification process, in the main.
So far about 1% of these people have been judged to be entryists/infiltrators/whatever.

Is this a problem? Suppose there is 1% of the whole electorate - 6,000 people - who are entryists. Would that significantly affect the result? I'm inclined to think that it would only be an issue if the vote was very very close.
Say Corbyn gets 51% of the first preferences, would it be right to re-run the contest on the grounds that 1% of the voters were entryists? Or would that depend on how the votes were split between the others?

Labour says the verification process is robust (I hope it is) but so far it has produced a figure that is a tenth of what Bradshaw has found in his constituency. Most of the other stuff about entryism quoted in the article is anecdotal; but what Bradshaw is saying seems to be based on a diligent analysis of his voters. What we don't know is how that 10% translates into numbers.
If his 10% was replicated everywhere, that's 60,000 people - is that a problem?

I'd appreciate it if AK or someone who knows more about all this would help me out here. Is this important?

Hello.

I'm assuming that this -

Under the legal advice, people known to have voted for other parties according to Labour canvass returns would have been asked to confirm again that they really did support its aims and values. But the party’s procedure committee voted to take no action. (Guardian)

was the proposed extra stage of the verification. But I don't see how foolproof that would have been. I'd go the ducking-stool route, myself. Much more reliable . . . .

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 8:23 am

In areas like mine, where it is a Plaid/Lib Dem, fight a lot of natural Labour supporters do vote Plaid.

I contemplated it myself in 2010 when trying to work out whether tactical voting was the way to go, and know people who do it. So they should qualify to vote. But how to really screen them out from the malicious brigade ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 8:25 am

Should this be ignored as right wing media rubbish ?

''Corbyn faces Labour party coup 'within days of being elected leader'
Jeremy Corbyn at an event outlining his plans for a publicly owned railway network in London
Exclusive: Labour MPs are understood to have held informal talks about challenging Mr Corbyn when Parliament returns to work next month''
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... r-MPs.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can just see all our opponents sniggering 'Labour leadership election, the gift that just keeps giving'.
And giving, and giving, and....negative headlines for years if people dare vote Corbyn.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 8:33 am

Well, we've seen the animosity that occurs between us here regarding the vote.

Amplify that up the chain, all those Dancuks and some of the 'big beasts' stamping their feet.

That would be it for me I'm afraid.
Would cancel my membership if the right of the party prevail, and if they do it nastily.
Would be forced to abstain or vote Plaid, I hate their nationalism but at least most of their policies would be nearer my wish list than a Blairite Labour.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 8:34 am

yahyah wrote:Should this be ignored as right wing media rubbish ?

''Corbyn faces Labour party coup 'within days of being elected leader'
Jeremy Corbyn at an event outlining his plans for a publicly owned railway network in London
Exclusive: Labour MPs are understood to have held informal talks about challenging Mr Corbyn when Parliament returns to work next month''
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... r-MPs.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can just see all our opponents sniggering 'Labour leadership election, the gift that just keeps giving'.
And giving, and giving, and....negative headlines for years if people dare vote Corbyn.

Morning yahyah and others.

If that Telegraph story is true and the 'moderates' (what an inappropriate term that is) are plotting a Corbyn coup if he's elected leader then they are beyond daft. There will be bitter repercussions from such a move. Another leadership election would see him re-elected - is my bet - and if someone else was imposed then I think there would be mass resignations. Read this George Eaton piece for some of his thoughts and info re this ...

Can Jeremy Corbyn and Labour MPs learn to get along?
The leadership candidate has the declared support of just 15 MPs. Both sides are preparing to enter what feels like an alternate universe.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... -get-along" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 8:39 am

Sorry, have woken up a bit grumpy this morning.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 8:44 am

Graham Allen MP ‏@GrahamAllenMP 13m13 minutes ago
Labour could lead an all party coalition into 2020 to bring in PR,ending the"broad churches"and let all honestly express their politics

Could this be Corbyn's big project? I don't know where he stands on PR. But very hard to do without most of the PLP on side.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 8:48 am

One of the very few pleasurable things about the election has been seeing the outrage of Marcus Chown and Mark Steel, prominent members of rival parties, in being denied the vote.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 8:51 am

SpinningHugo wrote:One of the very few pleasurable things about the election has been seeing the outrage of Marcus Chown and Mark Steel, prominent members of rival parties, in being denied the vote.

Which party is Mark Steel a member of ?

Post by **refitman** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 8:59 am

yahyah wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:One of the very few pleasurable things about the election has been seeing the outrage of Marcus Chown and Mark Steel, prominent members of rival parties, in being denied the vote.

Which party is Mark Steel a member of ?

I believe he's a member of Left Unity (like Ken Loach).

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:00 am

I can find that he was, in the distant past, a member of the Communist party, he left the SWP in 2007.

My husband sold Socialist Worker at Turnpike Lane tube station before we were married in the mid 70's. Should he have been banned from joining the Labour party a couple of years ago, 40 years later ?
That's what most of us did then.
I attended a meeting in support of ETA when I was a spring chicken, admittedly more for the opportunity of meeting some dark eyed young men than to support bombing.
Am I to be cast out of the tent too ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:02 am

refitman wrote:
yahyah wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:One of the very few pleasurable things about the election has been seeing the outrage of Marcus Chown and Mark Steel, prominent members of rival parties, in being denied the vote.

Which party is Mark Steel a member of ?
I believe he's a member of Left Unity (like Ken Loach).

His wiki entry does not mention that...has someone been editing it ?

'In 2007 he left the SWP and justified his decision in his book What's Going On?
In the book he wrote that he left the party because whilst the membership base had become smaller and smaller, the members that remained became increasingly deluded regarding the size and relevance of the organisation. He also condemned the manner in which, at a time when there was broad public support for socialist ideals, increasingly bitter and futile in-fighting on the left made political success impossible.

Alex Callinicos, International Secretary of the SWP, reviewed the book in the Socialist Review, arguing that it "evinces a kind of grandiose ignorance" and that "the only principle one can detect here is that the SWP is always in the wrong".[9] Literary critic Nicholas Lezard praised the book in The Guardian, particularly for its discussion of the break-up of Steel's relationship, which "gives it a poignancy and depth which at its outset one might not have expected".[10]

In February 2013, Steel was among those who gave their support to the People's Assembly in a letter published by The Guardian newspaper.[11] Steel spoke at a press conference to launch the People's Assembly Against Austerity on 26 March 2013[12] and regional public meetings[13] in the lead up to a national meeting at Westminster Central Hall on 22 June 2013. Steel also gave a speech at the People's Assembly Conference in Westminster.

Prior to the 2015 UK general election, he was one of several celebrities who endorsed the parliamentary candidacy of the Green Party's Caroline Lucas.[14]'

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:02 am

Michael Meacher ‏@michaelmeacher 9h9 hours ago
New post: The Labour leadership contest is a classic example of how it should not be fought http://bit.ly/1LlAgbc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:02 am

Steel was a prominent member of the SWP, and has campaigned for both the TUSC and Left Unity.

TBG he did campaign for Lab in May.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:03 am

yahyah wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:One of the very few pleasurable things about the election has been seeing the outrage of Marcus Chown and Mark Steel, prominent members of rival parties, in being denied the vote.

Which party is Mark Steel a member of ?

He was a member of the Socialist Workers Party but I don't know if he still is.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:05 am

So he was a member of a rival party in the past, and may or may not be [proof anyone] a member of LeftUnity.

It is all getting a bit McCarthy-ite.
''Have you, or have you ever sold a copy of Socialist Worker in your entire life ?''
If you have, then bogger off ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:07 am

Off to Aberystwyth for the day.
Hope to spot one of the baby dolphins, have seen a group of them right next to the beach in the past.

Suspect things won't be much different later in the day.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:09 am

James Chapman retweeted
Bright Blue ‏@WeAreBrightBlue 27m27 minutes ago
Reforms by @George_Osborne & @trussliz will aim to make it easier to live and work in rural areas http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... areas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Really - how will they do that? Ah ... relax planning laws and the power of local councils, of course.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:10 am

yahyah wrote:Should this be ignored as right wing media rubbish ?

''Corbyn faces Labour party coup 'within days of being elected leader'
Jeremy Corbyn at an event outlining his plans for a publicly owned railway network in London
Exclusive: Labour MPs are understood to have held informal talks about challenging Mr Corbyn when Parliament returns to work next month''
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... r-MPs.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can just see all our opponents sniggering 'Labour leadership election, the gift that just keeps giving'.
And giving, and giving, and....negative headlines for years if people dare vote Corbyn.

As ever, yahyah, it's "understood" and "sources claim". This story was in the Independent on Sunday too.

It might be true, it might not. If it is, 47 Labour MPs would have to nominate a new candidate at Conference. According to the Indy, "MPs said" (no names, again) they would "immediately start gathering the 47 names" if Corbyn wins.
If they do, whoever they are, they'll have just over 2 weeks to get their nomination sorted in time for Conference.

I'm inclined to think that if there is a coup - provided Corbyn wins, which is by no means guaranteed - it would not go down well with the grassroots. People pounded pavements for Ed Miliband for months, got precious little thanks in return, and those folks are comprised of thousands of full card-carrying members who will not be impressed if the most democratic leadership contest ever returns a leader who the heirarchy don't like and who is then subject to a coup.
Labour reported 299,755 full members at the beginning of the month - with the new full members, affiliates and registered supporters, that's an increase of 100,000 or so since the GE. Even if all of that 100,000 were entryists (which I doubt) it still represents 15% of the total electorate. Nobody knows how these people will vote.

If Corbyn wins, it will do Labour no good at all to question the results and/or stage a coup. It will do Labour no good at all to have factions in the PLP who refuse to support Corbyn's leadership or serve in shadow cabinet.
It seems to me that if there is a split, it won't be coming from the left of the PLP - it'll be coming from the current heirarchy. That the Labour Party has such an entrenched heirarchy is bad enough, and I hope that they will think of the good of the party and the acute need for an effective opposition before they start squabbling.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:13 am

Good morning.

Thought I'd better pop in to extend my best wishes to Mr. ohso, show and Mrs. Hindle and may I also extend such wishes to whoever else may be undergoing or suffering from health difficulties at the moment.

<tory> Don't expect any assistance unless you hang your head in shame, never ever smile, wash or dress or be punctual. Howver you shall be sanctioned or refused all help should you so succomb. </tory>

No links I'm afraid but there have recently been interesting aticles and comments btl on baby boomers and/or intergenerational divide, life with or without Corbyn, even Russel Brand's support. I am not usually bothered by so-called celeb endorsements, nevertheless there are some who influence. As it happens I was only thinking of him yesterday, before I'd heard/seen such news and wishing he would engage with the youth in casting their vote, not the leadership campaign but in GE's. He was far too late with his endorsement of Ed and even then backtracked although it may have been a perfidious face-saving move given the result. He may of course have much less influence than imagined but whatever it takes to energise the youth or get them to take responsiibilty. I think not voting, as is abstaining in the House, a dereliction of duty and bland acceptance of the status quo. Agreed until Ed, I neither backed Labour or voted tactically in GEs no matter the failings of FPTP as I wanted my vote to reflect my wishes. However there is no greater danger to our fair nation than ongoing corporatism and the Tory hegemony.

Corbyn and to a lesser extent Burnham have both spoken of power emanating from the grass-roots. I therefore say to the grass-roots, seize the opportunity. It's a pity that Clegg and LibDems failed with AV, albeit a very poor relation to what is ideal so if FPTP is what we have then Labour are the more likely party to defeat Conservatives. Having said that a coalition of endeavour is required so Labour must support heading toward a PR alternative so that we may move on.

I'll read others' contributions now I'm here.

Edit; typos! I should revert back to looking at the screen now that my fingers are less stiff than they were.

Edit: just realiswed my tory diatribe doesn't quite work on all counts. Then again, when did that bother Tories?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:35 am

What's up? Have I stunned everybody to silence?

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:40 am

GCSE grades of C or above rises to 69%
A* down, as are awards in German, Spanish, and other modern languages.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:55 am

utopiandreams wrote:What's up? Have I stunned everybody to silence?

No, I'm just bored with the whole process of the leadership election and the number of people trying to "get Corbyn" on both right and left.

I notice Douglas Murray piling in this time in the Spectator - and no, I'm not going to link to it. His broadbrush painting of "he left" is so stupid given that there is a whole section of the left who are against Corbyn and are doing the "Look! He sat next to a nasty man once!" too.

It's almost like the right have completely forgotten some of the alliances they formed in the European Parliament with the most unsavory characters and parties.

But hey, that's politics...

And... I have to say I'm getting tired of having Spinning Hugo posting here. Sorry, but he's not here like most of us are and doesn't engage with other people in the same way There's an agenda which I suspect is why he keeps getting kicked out of the Guardian as soon as he gets spotted again. This is not the practice of a casual poster - most would have given up trying ages ago (in fact, some of the worst did and are long gone).

Over and out - library beckons.

DonutHingeParty · Post by **DonutHingeParty** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:56 am

yahyah wrote:I can find that he was, in the distant past, a member of the Communist party, he left the SWP in 2007.

My husband sold Socialist Worker at Turnpike Lane tube station before we were married in the mid 70's. Should he have been banned from joining the Labour party a couple of years ago, 40 years later ?
That's what most of us did then.
I attended a meeting in support of ETA when I was a spring chicken, admittedly more for the opportunity of meeting some dark eyed young men than to support bombing.
Am I to be cast out of the tent too ?

The ridiculous thing is that the Labour Party is itself, two parties; the Labour PLP and the Co-Op Party, which includes Gordon Brown and Stella Creasy in their number.

All Left Unity, or the SWP, would have to do is to say that they agree not to stand against a Labour candidate standing on a Corbynite manifesto, and there wouldn't be an issue.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 9:58 am

yahyah wrote:Sorry, have woken up a bit grumpy this morning.

So have I, a bit. Probably the weather being a bit muggy and we've got mizzly showers at the mo but at least the Met Office are suggesting there might be some warm sunshine this afternoon...

Today's brunch menu, from Ernst's Kitchen, is a light and fluffy Omelette interlaced with a mélange of Fresh Tuna and Luxurious 100% single-estate Chocolate - a real boost to the triptofan levels! Tea, coffee, hot chocolate, and mulled-dandelion-and-burdock are all available with a choice of sheep's, goat's, mare's, and cow's milk or sliced lemon, lime, or kiwi-fruit. Enjoy!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:00 am

I've bought the odd copy of Socialist Worker in the past. Pre CCTV days, though, so I might be safe.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:03 am

I suspect that George Eaton is closer to the reality of things than the fevered stuff coming out from the likes of the Torygraph.

It has confirmed one thing for me, though - if JC is going to win, let him do so decisively (preferably on the first ballot) That will leave less room for the Danczuk's of this world.

And have any of these delusional "grandees" thought what might happen if Corbyn was forced out within months or even weeks of being elected by the membership? Members wouldn't just leave en masse in disgust (including some, I suspect, who never even voted for him) but many unions would give up on Labour too - I could easily see moves to set up a Syriza-type breakaway party within a year. Leaving the "grandee" establishment with a PASOK-type rump?

Be careful what you wish for......

DonutHingeParty · Post by **DonutHingeParty** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:12 am

PorFavor wrote:I've bought the odd copy of Socialist Worker in the past. Pre CCTV days, though, so I might be safe.

I joined up in order to get on a Coach going to march against the Criminal Justice Bill back in the '90s. I had a shiny gold card with a red fist on it and everything.

I think that was the first occasion where CCTV was used to target individuals in order to deny them government jobs - at least, that's what my mate John's mum said at the time.

That said, he now works at the Houses of Parliament, so what did she know?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:13 am

Deleted duplicate post. I'm sure I saw a delete option the other day.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:14 am

@RogerOThornhill

I know what you mean, Roger, there's been so much nonsense said of Corbyn, but have been one or two more reasoned articles, whether or not you support him.

Btw did you notice my response to you regarding pedrothepuppy in the other place before the thread was removed? Something about your clearing his mess then apparently inviting him to do more. I can't remember who it was (rr2?) but someone here later similarly interpreted trot or trots in their case.

I hope this hasn't been duplicated as my internet connection keeps going down, something specific to this machine not the router or others on my network. It's a problem I haven't fathomed yet; if it were an IP address conflict I'd expect to be told. I could try changing my router login, not that I think it's being abused.

Edit: removed a spurious but.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:17 am

A Tilehurst man hit by train at notorious Ufton Nervet level crossing struggling to care for Mum

http://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/ ... um_s_care/

Heartbreaking.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:19 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:What's up? Have I stunned everybody to silence?
No, I'm just bored with the whole process of the leadership election and the number of people trying to "get Corbyn" on both right and left.

I notice Douglas Murray piling in this time in the Spectator - and no, I'm not going to link to it. His broadbrush painting of "he left" is so stupid given that there is a whole section of the left who are against Corbyn and are doing the "Look! He sat next to a nasty man once!" too.

It's almost like the right have completely forgotten some of the alliances they formed in the European Parliament with the most unsavory characters and parties.

But hey, that's politics...

And... I have to say I'm getting tired of having Spinning Hugo posting here. Sorry, but he's not here like most of us are and doesn't engage with other people in the same way There's an agenda which I suspect is why he keeps getting kicked out of the Guardian as soon as he gets spotted again. This is not the practice of a casual poster - most would have given up trying ages ago (in fact, some of the worst did and are long gone).

Over and out - library beckons.

Not just me, then.....

I'm not surprised you're bored, Roger. This is turning out to be a very very long month.

It's 120th of August already! (See above...)

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:24 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
James Chapman retweeted
Bright Blue ‏@WeAreBrightBlue 27m27 minutes ago
Reforms by @George_Osborne & @trussliz will aim to make it easier to live and work in rural areas http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... areas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
Really - how will they do that? Ah ... relax planning laws and the power of local councils, of course.

I shudder every time I hear mention of building 'starter-homes.' Brings back memories of poky little houses where you could either fit a two-seater sofa into the living room or be able to open the door to the equally titchy kitchen; and where you needed to fold the bed up so you could get into the bathroom. I had friends who bought when the last lot of these 'starter' houses or flats went up, who were then were stuck unable to sell them for years. The minimum space standards had been done away with and developers were delighted to cram rabbit hutches into already inadequate spaces.

DonutHingeParty · Post by **DonutHingeParty** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:29 am

I'm getting pretty tired of this "guilt by association" being levelled at Corbyn.

Look at this meeting between an obscenely wealthy, out of touch autocratic despot and . . . oh, fill in your own punchline

And here's Jack Straw with Nick Griffin!

And, obviously, Tony Blair with Gadaffi

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:39 am

@DonutHingeParty

Guilt by association? No wonder my mother though me a Tory, Donut. It must have been my arguing with Degsy (not that he'd remember me) and sharing joints with a future Young Conservative leader, even negotiating allowing (market) stalls in Liverpool's Student Union in exchange for student discounts both there and the main place of business. Then again, I never mentioned either of them to my Mum. Perhaps she thought she'd brought me up that way as prior to Maggie's second term my parents were true blue.

Post by **refitman** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:43 am

ephemerid wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:What's up? Have I stunned everybody to silence?
No, I'm just bored with the whole process of the leadership election and the number of people trying to "get Corbyn" on both right and left.

I notice Douglas Murray piling in this time in the Spectator - and no, I'm not going to link to it. His broadbrush painting of "he left" is so stupid given that there is a whole section of the left who are against Corbyn and are doing the "Look! He sat next to a nasty man once!" too.

It's almost like the right have completely forgotten some of the alliances they formed in the European Parliament with the most unsavory characters and parties.

But hey, that's politics...

And... I have to say I'm getting tired of having Spinning Hugo posting here. Sorry, but he's not here like most of us are and doesn't engage with other people in the same way There's an agenda which I suspect is why he keeps getting kicked out of the Guardian as soon as he gets spotted again. This is not the practice of a casual poster - most would have given up trying ages ago (in fact, some of the worst did and are long gone).

Over and out - library beckons.

Not just me, then.....

I'm not surprised you're bored, Roger. This is turning out to be a very very long month.

It's 120th of August already! (See above...)

I don't know what you're talking about.

*wanders away, whistling innocently*

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:49 am

refitman wrote:
ephemerid wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote: No, I'm just bored with the whole process of the leadership election and the number of people trying to "get Corbyn" on both right and left.

I notice Douglas Murray piling in this time in the Spectator - and no, I'm not going to link to it. His broadbrush painting of "he left" is so stupid given that there is a whole section of the left who are against Corbyn and are doing the "Look! He sat next to a nasty man once!" too.

It's almost like the right have completely forgotten some of the alliances they formed in the European Parliament with the most unsavory characters and parties.

But hey, that's politics...

And... I have to say I'm getting tired of having Spinning Hugo posting here. Sorry, but he's not here like most of us are and doesn't engage with other people in the same way There's an agenda which I suspect is why he keeps getting kicked out of the Guardian as soon as he gets spotted again. This is not the practice of a casual poster - most would have given up trying ages ago (in fact, some of the worst did and are long gone).

Over and out - library beckons.

Not just me, then.....

I'm not surprised you're bored, Roger. This is turning out to be a very very long month.

It's 120th of August already! (See above...)
I don't know what you're talking about.

*wanders away, whistling innocently*

:whistles loudly: We've now shot back from 120h(ours?) of August (5th?) to 20h - so, partway through the 1st? @Ephie's right - this month feels like it's been dragging on for ages and it's barely started...

Edit: formatting

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:50 am

So My ballot papers came this morning.
Haven't been sure whether I would even bother to vote and if I did who would be the beneficiary.

This morning I chose Corbyn. Watson. No second choices. Sod giving my support to someone whose views differ from mine.

Have had nothing at all from Kendall.

Watson has been the only candidate for Deputy to ring me and send literature. Indeed, Watson has been the only one to ring me out of all the candidates, so he got my vote. We'll need that sort of organising skill in 2020.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 10:57 am

Talking of joints and my Mum, I remember my parents visiting our flat (with my first wife-to-be). A few friends were round at the time lounging on scatter cushions listening to music and merrily toking away. My father, a non-smoker, wasn't particularly amused albeit he had toked in India in his youth (much frowned upon even there) but my mother happily joined in when pointed out the 'living by our standards in our home' argument. I think Bohemian was the term she used for what she felt.

Anyway enough of my boring anecdotes. many that are less so do not bear repeating. Besides I'd be laughed out of town for some of them as unbelievable. Cheers, stuff to do apart from the odd lurk.

Edit: excuse my rambling but anything to change the subject. After all, as some of you have suggested but not in these terms, it is the silly season.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 11:01 am

Morning all.

I'm afraid this entryist has yet to decide who to vote for. Text, email and paper from the candidates a plenty, bar Bradshaw and Kendall. If the latter was polling at 50% on a surge of new voters would there be such an outcry by the PLP and usual MSM suspects?

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 11:10 am

ohsocynical wrote:So My ballot papers came this morning.
Haven't been sure whether I would even bother to vote and if I did who would be the beneficiary.

This morning I chose Corbyn. Watson. No second choices. Sod giving my support to someone whose views differ from mine.

Have had nothing at all from Kendall.

Watson has been the only candidate for Deputy to ring me and send literature. Indeed, Watson has been the only one to ring me out of all the candidates, so he got my vote. We'll need that sort of organising skill in 2020.

I've got mine too, and have voted the same way. Great minds, and all that, OhSo!

Watson is guilty of briefing against Ed, and he can be a bit of a bugger. But I think his bombast will be a good counterpoint to Corbyn's style; he is a very good organiser as you say, and he has made himself very unpopular in some quarters with his dogged pursuit of an inquiry into the CSA allegations, his support of the victims who have contacted him, and also his work on phone hacking etc.

I've had a few texts from Watson, Eagle and Creasey. None from the others, and one phone call from Watson's team.
I liked Eagle but went off her a bit. I've never liked Flint, and disapprove of her stance on the regulation of drugs.
I don't think Creasey has enough experience yet, but she could be good news. I like Bradshaw as a man but his politics are too Blairite for my taste and he was a disaster as health minister.

There's quite an interesting take on the deputy candidates here - anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/labour-deputy

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 11:14 am

I had a form from my council called 'Annual Canvas' arrive this morning.

You can fill in, in order to register to vote. Maybe it's me, but I found it more intrusive than the old form. It felt like a sneaky way of seeing how many foreigners there are over here.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 11:28 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

I'm afraid this entryist has yet to decide who to vote for. Text, email and paper from the candidates a plenty, bar Bradshaw and Kendall. If the latter was polling at 50% on a surge of new voters would there be such an outcry by the PLP and usual MSM suspects?

Morning Stephen.

In answer to your question - No. In my opinion.

The many many stories/news/etc. suggest that the expectation was that Cooper or Burnham would be a shoo-in.
They're now slugging it out for the final leg of campaigning.
Even with the endorsement of some big guns, they don't seem to be able to shift Corbyn's lead yet; if things continue this way they will likely not even get as far as a second preference vote.

I think Kendall was the poster girl for the more right-wing side of the party, and I doubt her supporters seriously expected her to win.
She's not even doing as well as they hoped.
Had she "done a Corbyn" I suspect that Cooper and Burnham would have behaved in a similar fashion with her as they have with Corbyn; but I don't think she would have had anything like the vitriol Corbyn's had from old New Labour people or the MSM.
She is a Blairite, in policy terms, despite never having served in his government.

I think some people are actually frightened of Corbyn and what (they think) he represents. They are afraid that there will be no more middle-of-the-road politics, no more shifting of the centre ground to the right, and a party split (that they will cause if they don't support him should he win). They weren't expecting this.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 11:42 am

ephemerid wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:So My ballot papers came this morning.
Haven't been sure whether I would even bother to vote and if I did who would be the beneficiary.

This morning I chose Corbyn. Watson. No second choices. Sod giving my support to someone whose views differ from mine.

Have had nothing at all from Kendall.

Watson has been the only candidate for Deputy to ring me and send literature. Indeed, Watson has been the only one to ring me out of all the candidates, so he got my vote. We'll need that sort of organising skill in 2020.

I've got mine too, and have voted the same way. Great minds, and all that, OhSo!

Watson is guilty of briefing against Ed, and he can be a bit of a bugger. But I think his bombast will be a good counterpoint to Corbyn's style; he is a very good organiser as you say, and he has made himself very unpopular in some quarters with his dogged pursuit of an inquiry into the CSA allegations, his support of the victims who have contacted him, and also his work on phone hacking etc.

I've had a few texts from Watson, Eagle and Creasey. None from the others, and one phone call from Watson's team.
I liked Eagle but went off her a bit. I've never liked Flint, and disapprove of her stance on the regulation of drugs.
I don't think Creasey has enough experience yet, but she could be good news. I like Bradshaw as a man but his politics are too Blairite for my taste and he was a disaster as health minister.

There's quite an interesting take on the deputy candidates here - anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/labour-deputy

I wasn't sure about Watson, but liked his bull headedness and bravery when fighting Murdoch and CSA. Being bull headed can be a blessing or a curse but I feel he'll make a good foil for the quieter Corbyn.
What finally convinced me was his ideas for bringing local organisers and councils into the fold.

Mr Ohso's admiration when he heard Corbyn being interviewed on the radio was the clincher. His refusal to be sidetracked or interrupted earned a 'bugger me he's making sense and he's not letting them throw him,' from the other half. Praise indeed

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 20 Aug, 2015 12:00 pm

I'm rather comforted that Corbyn has solid and unmoveable beliefs [that he lives by] and won't be sidetracked.

I don't think, I know we'll need someone who won't be swayed/bribed/co-erced/forced from their objective when it means the health and survival of those less well off.
We have to remember. The right, the city, the bankers, the 1%, are fighting for their survival as we are. It's human nature.

Unfortunately even though we have right on our side, we don't have the the birth, the money, or the connections to counteract the damage they cause.
All we can do is select someone who truly believes we are worth fighting for, and is prepared to dig their heels in.

I believe we had such a one in Ed. I hope we've found his successor.