Friday 21st August 2015

Post by **refitman** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 7:08 am

Morning all.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 7:21 am

Good morning.

Although I overheard something about the falling stock market earlier but wasn't paying attention although did catrch it was largely because of China's faltering economy, even that there may be figgling (as once defined here). Bad enough after Libor, Olympus and... sorry I forget the other Japanese company so accused. What to say? China. Well that's over there and then the biggy, although I still wasn't listening. Over-investment in real estate! Wtf! I'm assuming much of this investment has come from overseas and dare I say the very bankers that have caused worldwide chaos.

Chaos? Now that's an interesting word isn't it, Cameron? One you deemed we should all fear should Labour have won the election. Frankly, my friend (now I am being kind), I feel you should look much closer to home for the cause, in circles with whom you are far more familiar.

Edit: corrected Canon to Olympus.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 7:42 am

Morning.

Hard to feel any sympathy for Jeremy Hardy who's been whinging on Radio 4 about being barred from voting.

He's spent the last X number of years sniggering about Ed Miliband, railing against Labour at any opportunity he had, using his public profile to do so. He endorsed Lucas over the Labour candidate in Brighton.

People like him can, I'm afraid, just shut up. I voted Corbyn despite people like him, I hope their whining doesn't make me regret it.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 8:01 am

Scrupulously fair on Corbynomics
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... nomy-plans" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Takeaway

1. The tax gap stuff is nonsense
2. Helicopter drops would make sense in 2008 conditions. Not now.
3. It all looks undercooked.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 8:03 am

Sorry been doing other things and shall be doing so much of the day but shall leave with a final thought. I am not an economist so make no presumptions on the solution, apart from hindering the greed of those who cream off the means of exchange. Money in my understanding of the term is the facilitator for human exchange and activity, not a sole purpose in itself. I've always understood society and the human condition as the central pillar of economics. No wonder so much is said of Mammon, something that Tories favour.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 8:14 am

Morning.

Why are we angry with the DWP? We should be thanking them for making life seem so positive
We don't want to be deflated by tales like that of the war veteran whose benefits were stopped because he’d spent an afternoon selling poppies, after all
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why ... 64404.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That’s why the DWP should issue a leaflet telling the story of Alf, who says: “I used to go to interviews stark naked, and when they asked for my name I would bark like a dog. Then my work coach advised me to at least wear a pair of socks, and now I fly helicopters for Air-sea rescue.” After Sarah, the DWP introduced us to Zac, who had to rearrange a meeting with his work coach because of a hospital appointment. Zac let him know in advance, so his benefits weren’t affected, and if they’d had more space they’d have added that it was a beautiful spring afternoon with daffodils blooming and he’d have looked at them if it didn’t mean his benefits would be cancelled because he’d been watching flowers instead of looking for work.

Shame this story isn't getting the full on MSM attention it deserves (BBC I'm looking at you) while the Labour leadership fiesta rolls on.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 8:18 am

One other thing. I don't know who provided the link to Alexis Tsipras' resignation in the Mirror, but did notice they now have a comments section. Not that I'm joining, just saying.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 8:21 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

Hard to feel any sympathy for Jeremy Hardy who's been whinging on Radio 4 about being barred from voting.

He's spent the last X number of years sniggering about Ed Miliband, railing against Labour at any opportunity he had, using his public profile to do so. He endorsed Lucas over the Labour candidate in Brighton.

People like him can, I'm afraid, just shut up. I voted Corbyn despite people like him, I hope their whining doesn't make me regret it.

Found myself thinking the same yahyah - except for the having voted Corbyn bit - still undecided. Yes, Caroline Lucas is a social democrat politician as he said ... but there was a Labour candidate standing who he actively campaigned against by supporting her - I think I heard them say that he had publicly said people should vote for Caroline. Does he really expect the local Labour party to apply different rules for him?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 8:25 am

Even the Mail & Telegraph online aren't headlining the Corbyn ISIS/Fallujah remarks, their paper front pages didn't either.

So why are BBC Radio 4 doing it every hour ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 8:31 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Morning.

Hard to feel any sympathy for Jeremy Hardy who's been whinging on Radio 4 about being barred from voting.

He's spent the last X number of years sniggering about Ed Miliband, railing against Labour at any opportunity he had, using his public profile to do so. He endorsed Lucas over the Labour candidate in Brighton.

People like him can, I'm afraid, just shut up. I voted Corbyn despite people like him, I hope their whining doesn't make me regret it.
Found myself thinking the same yahyah - except for the having voted Corbyn bit - still undecided. Yes, Caroline Lucas is a social democrat politician as he said ... but there was a Labour candidate standing who he actively campaigned against by supporting her - I think I heard them say that he had publicly said people should vote for Caroline. Does he really expect the local Labour party to apply different rules for him?

He'll be delighted - it'll give him material for his rancour filled comedy for years to come.
Which may have been what he really wanted of course with 'I'm a victim of that nasty Labour party' tattoed on forehead.

& call me cynical, but I wonder how many of those well paid comedians who turn up on, or write, things like Mock The Week really want to pay more tax ?

They certainly seem to revel in putting Labour down at any opportunity, helping Labour tolose, while posing as oh so left wing and Tory hating. Convenient that.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 8:37 am

What's going on at the Telegraph ?
Have they been hacked

'State pupils put private schools in the shade
Analysis of A-level results shows fee-paying students were outclassed by top performing state schools in league tables

Top 500 state schools perform better than top 500 fee paying schools despite having a fraction of their budget'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... hools.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 8:46 am

Is Labour purging supporters of Jeremy Corbyn?
What is the science behind getting kicked out of Labour's leadership process?
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... emy-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gives a bit of information about the process, the kind of distinctions being used to block someone etc. And say 'No' the party isn't trying to purge itself of JC supporters.

So what does Labour's the party's plan to ensure a "clean" leadership ballot, dubbed "Operation Icepick" by outsiders, actually involve? The doomsday scenario at headquarters isn't a Corbyn victory - all but one or two of the party's staff believe that is inevitable - but a legal challenge following a close Corbyn victory.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 8:53 am

The language used by the New Statesman doesn't help.

'Big wave of expulsions', 'purging'.

How can you be expelled if you aren't a member of something ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 8:56 am

Actually, on reading the rest of it, some sounds alarming...if true of course.

''to the ridiculous – one member was reported for failing to attend the CLP barbecue''.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:05 am

yahyah wrote:Actually, on reading the rest of it, some sounds alarming...if true of course.

''to the ridiculous – one member was reported for failing to attend the CLP barbecue''.

Yes that's clearly very petty but according to the article no decision to deny a vote had been taken on that ridiculous charge. You might hope that the NEC might think about suggesting some new improved guidelines for governance of local parties when they see examples like that one!

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:05 am

Miliband starts a trend ...

: ScreenShot00659.jpg (33.93 KiB) Viewed 10070 times

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:06 am

Cameron jumps on the bandwagon

: CM6gWA9XAAApx7s.png (127.38 KiB) Viewed 10070 times

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:07 am

Toby....that is just weird...yikes !

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:11 am

yahyah wrote:Even the Mail & Telegraph online aren't headlining the Corbyn ISIS/Fallujah remarks, their paper front pages didn't either.

So why are BBC Radio 4 doing it every hour ?

I promise you the right wing press are hoping that story will go away. They plan to go all out on it only after Corbyn has won. They won't print anything that might damage the chances of their choice for Labour leader.

It is a big story and the BBC is within its rights to run it.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:16 am

But look at what he actually said. He called Isis 'brutal', he doesn't condone their actions.

& the remarks are from last year, a lot of the Isis violence-porn pics and reports the media have been publishing, seemingly more to titillate or provoke amygdala type responses than anything else, [just look at the Mail's coverage], has been more in the last six or nine months.

Post by **refitman** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:16 am

I see Tubby's also been having fun on the Khan/PFI thread.

Mayoral candidate Sadiq Khan proposes buying up London hospitals' PFI debt

The London mayoral hopeful Sadiq Khan has said he would consider buying up the debt owed by the capital’s hospitals to private companies under private finance initiatives (PFI). Responding to a new report on the financial impact of PFI on London’s health service, Khan said relieving NHS trusts of their debt and offering support in renegotiating PFI contracts would free up funds to be put into patient care.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... t-57919594" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:17 am

Last night Mr Riots and I watched a great documentary about ancient Greece and its development of cities ... how they designed and planned them around 'agora' - public spaces that enabled and promoted democracy and free speech.

The good watch was only marred by the appearance of Boris Johnson towards the end extolling London in this tradition ... how democracy, free speech and the right to public protest are enshrined here.

I turned to Mr Riots and said 'Water cannon'.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:18 am

Good-morning, everyone.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:22 am

Good morning everyone.

There is a fascinating article in the Society section of the G today from the archive. It's about housing, and is from 1960.
Entitled "The fight against exorbitant rents" it could have been written this morning.
What interests me most is that the government of the day, a Tory government under Macmillan, were prepared to consider compulsory purchase (amongst other things) to bring greedy landlords into line.

All the problems of 45 years ago - especially rising rents in London - are the same.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... g-property" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:24 am

Also - just had a text from Show.
He's still in the HDU, and will be there until Monday.
Doing fine!

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:26 am

yahyah wrote:But look at what he actually said. He called Isis 'brutal', he doesn't condone their actions.

& the remarks are from last year, a lot of the Isis violence-porn pics and reports the media have been publishing, seemingly more to titillate or provoke amygdala type responses than anything else, [just look at the Mail's coverage], has been more in the last six or nine months.

That really will not do.

It was the claims of equivalence that are the problem.

And the nature of IS has long been apparent.

All part of JCs view that we never need western force, negotiation can do the job. This is, after all, the man who opposed the intervention in Kosovo who that well known rightwing denounced in the strongest terms at the time.

The Tories will not just go after Corbyn.

What they will try to do is paint Labour as the party of Corbyn. That will mean that even after he goes in, say, 2018, the Tories will shout that this bogeyman can always come back as that is what we are really like.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:40 am

utopiandreams wrote:Good morning.

Although I overheard something about the falling stock market earlier but wasn't paying attention although did catrch it was largely because of China's faltering economy, even that there may be figgling (as once defined here). Bad enough after Libor, Olympus and... sorry I forget the other Japanese company so accused. What to say? China. Well that's over there and then the biggy, although I still wasn't listening. Over-investment in real estate! Wtf! I'm assuming much of this investment has come from overseas and dare I say the very bankers that have caused worldwide chaos.

Chaos? Now that's an interesting word isn't it, Cameron? One you deemed we should all fear should Labour have won the election. Frankly, my friend (now I am being kind), I feel you should look much closer to home for the cause, in circles with whom you are far more familiar.

Edit: corrected Canon to Olympus.

China - allow me to provide two pretentious Nixon era quotes - one from his economic advisor.

Stein was the formulator of "Herbert Stein's Law," which he expressed as "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop," by which he meant that if a trend (balance of payments deficits in his example) cannot go on forever, there is no need for action or a program to make it stop, much less to make it stop immediately; it will stop of its own accord.[2] It is often rephrased as: "Trends that can't continue, won't."

Source Wikipedia.

And one from the great man himself on China.

Well, you can just stop and think of what could happen if anybody with a decent system of government got control of that mainland. Good God. There'd be no power in the world that could even—I mean, you put 800 million Chinese to work under a decent system and they will be the leaders of the world [1]

source Wikiquote.

China exists by using the poverty of a huge chunk of its people to enrich a minority, which is what corporatist government has always done. It has been growing for years and all the time this continues people are happy to carry on under a corrupt system. The problem is flows of money have led to speculation and corruption is in the mix. A huge property bubble has been created and as credit was restricted large shadow banking has grown up. Debt levels and slowing growth now mean this is coming to an end and stocks are hurt by widespread use of borrowing to purchase stocks leading to margin calls forcing the sale of stocks.

In short China is probably going to suffer a recession (or near recession). Since it provides western goods and more importantly consumes large amounts of western goods this will be interesting. It may also put their one party state at risk as the implicit deal with the urban population is we rule, you get richer.

Australia is already suffering (mining), expect fashion brands and car manufacturers to get a hammering. On the plus side oil will get cheaper.

Project Fear was right. iScotland would probably have dumped the SNP by now and annulled the independence vote.

Post by **refitman** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:40 am

ephemerid wrote:Also - just had a text from Show.
He's still in the HDU, and will be there until Monday.
Doing fine!

Great to hear!

DonutHingeParty · Post by **DonutHingeParty** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:47 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
yahyah wrote:But look at what he actually said. He called Isis 'brutal', he doesn't condone their actions.

& the remarks are from last year, a lot of the Isis violence-porn pics and reports the media have been publishing, seemingly more to titillate or provoke amygdala type responses than anything else, [just look at the Mail's coverage], has been more in the last six or nine months.

That really will not do.

It was the claims of equivalence that are the problem.

And the nature of IS has long been apparent.

All part of JCs view that we never need western force, negotiation can do the job. This is, after all, the man who opposed the intervention in Kosovo who that well known rightwing denounced in the strongest terms at the time.

The Tories will not just go after Corbyn.

What they will try to do is paint Labour as the party of Corbyn. That will mean that even after he goes in, say, 2018, the Tories will shout that this bogeyman can always come back as that is what we are really like.

It wasn't equivalency; it was saying that although it is easy (and justifiable) to attack IS as brutal fanatics, we must not feel that gives us the right to act as an international lynch mob, and in the process attack and murder the very people we were trying to protect, justifying IS' arguments and exacerbating the problem, ignoring international law and calm dispassionate strategy for the cathartic thrill of bombing something which might be considered to have military value.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 9:53 am

yahyah wrote:But look at what he actually said. He called Isis 'brutal', he doesn't condone their actions.

& the remarks are from last year, a lot of the Isis violence-porn pics and reports the media have been publishing, seemingly more to titillate or provoke amygdala type responses than anything else, [just look at the Mail's coverage], has been more in the last six or nine months.

When he talks about a political accommodation with ISIS he has crossed the line. As others pointed out how much enslavement, rape and murder of women and non believers is acceptable in Corbyn's mind? He probably doesn't think of it like that, but that is the logical end of his argument.

Corbyn needs to understand that some things have to be fought, and some things require military force. You cannot negotiate with these people you need to destroy them (which oddly starts with cutting a peace deal with Iran rather than just futilely lobbing bombs in their general direction).

When you add CND, a plan to leave NATO and to slash defence industries it all looks a bit weak for a PM. That will be the Tory line.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 10:01 am

Law Society Gazette
‏@lawsocgazette
BREAKING: solicitors suspend legal aid action @MonidipaFouzder http://goo.gl/t68sr1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 10:08 am

FTSE 100
6328.74
-39.15

Dow Jones
16990.69
-358.04
closed

DAX
10389.91
-42.28

Nikkei
19435.83
-597.69
closed

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/business" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The FTSE 100 has hit its lowest level of 2015, after weak Chinese factory data spooked investors worldwide

edited to add
I don't think this is going to go away anytime soon.
We probably have a global economic problem now.
Again.
What you all reckon gets done this time?
I'm happy to be wrong.

DonutHingeParty · Post by **DonutHingeParty** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 10:09 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
yahyah wrote:But look at what he actually said. He called Isis 'brutal', he doesn't condone their actions.

& the remarks are from last year, a lot of the Isis violence-porn pics and reports the media have been publishing, seemingly more to titillate or provoke amygdala type responses than anything else, [just look at the Mail's coverage], has been more in the last six or nine months.
When he talks about a political accommodation with ISIS he has crossed the line. As others pointed out how much enslavement, rape and murder of women and non believers is acceptable in Corbyn's mind? He probably doesn't think of it like that, but that is the logical end of his argument.

Where do you stand on the Taliban?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 10:14 am

Sorry folks for treating this place like it were a FaceBook page, perhaps I need some company. Anyway what was I saying about hoping my boiler service wouldn't be sabotaged? I had mentioned a recent intermittent fault that I had for a few days with the main circuit board but that it had stopped when I closed the adjacent window; it was some months ago but I mentioned it in case it required attention. The engineer told me it was most likely a poor connection that he would remedy. That was before our less than friendly chat (putting it mildly) over IDS, cuts, Thatcherism, bank deregulation, etc., etc.?

I'm in desperate need of a shower and lo and behold, F13! Oh well I'll have a somewhat late breakfast and try again. Just desserts I guess, I really should be my usual kindly self. Mmm a fresh orange with my meusli this morning. Sorry badgers, yes I still buy milk. 'And on that note I'd be happy to pay a premium if necessary to stop their slaughter but it seems supermarkets may be dairy farmers greater enemy.

Have I ever mentioned I once was a milkman for a short while when I first arrived back in these parts? Excepting Fridays and Saturdays it was my morning run before pursuing other interests in the afternoons and early evenings. Believe it or not I have some anecdotes of that too, but had better leave it at being buried under a roof load of snow as the door was answered by a young lady in her satin dressing gown. I'll shut up now and have a little read while I eat up.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 10:16 am

Ben Bradshaw ‏@BenPBradshaw 10m10 minutes ago
A Tory, who's been denied a vote in Labour leadership complains "@bigbadrob68: @BenPBradshaw I want my vote! #LabourPurge”Rob Hicks ‏@bigbadrob68 11h11 hours ago

@BenPBradshaw What appeal process? You have to join #labour to appeal. #labour have turned into fascists. I want my vote. #LabourPurge

The system appears to have worked well in this instance. Mr Hicks seems a right charmer from his twitter output.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 10:17 am

Jeremy Corbyn's brother is climate change denying 'mad professor' weatherman
The Mirror
26 July 2015

Jeremy Corbyn ’s brother is a controversial weather forecaster and a fervent climate change denier.

As the owner of WeatherAction, Piers Corbyn claims to make accurate weather forecasts for up to a year in advance.

The 68-year-old maverick is a fierce critic of other forecasters who back the theory of man-made global warming.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/je ... ge-6140173" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My oldest sister is a nutter too.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 10:20 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Ben Bradshaw ‏@BenPBradshaw 10m10 minutes ago
A Tory, who's been denied a vote in Labour leadership complains "@bigbadrob68: @BenPBradshaw I want my vote! #LabourPurge”Rob Hicks ‏@bigbadrob68 11h11 hours ago

@BenPBradshaw What appeal process? You have to join #labour to appeal. #labour have turned into fascists. I want my vote. #LabourPurge
The system appears to have worked well in this instance. Mr Hicks seems a right charmer from his twitter output.

I like Bradshaw's response to the Tory.

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 10:37 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
yahyah wrote:But look at what he actually said. He called Isis 'brutal', he doesn't condone their actions.

& the remarks are from last year, a lot of the Isis violence-porn pics and reports the media have been publishing, seemingly more to titillate or provoke amygdala type responses than anything else, [just look at the Mail's coverage], has been more in the last six or nine months.

That really will not do.

It was the claims of equivalence that are the problem.

And the nature of IS has long been apparent.

All part of JCs view that we never need western force, negotiation can do the job. This is, after all, the man who opposed the intervention in Kosovo who that well known rightwing denounced in the strongest terms at the time.

The Tories will not just go after Corbyn.

What they will try to do is paint Labour as the party of Corbyn. That will mean that even after he goes in, say, 2018, the Tories will shout that this bogeyman can always come back as that is what we are really like.

I do not want to get into futile arguments with anyone here.We all have our positions and should respect different avenues of thought.

However on this I have to have my say.

What really will not do is this seeming attitude of being frightened of our own shadow. Can we not fight back rather than lying down and taking a beating?

Of course the media have a track record and will look for any statement,quote,part of interview whether in context or not to try and show any left winger in a bad light. They do this whilst ignoring or minimising the right wing gaffes. I think it was YahYah this morning that commented on the lack of coverage of the DWP press releases whilst going into overdrive on Corbyn. This suits the agenda of their owners perfectly.

But,please,do not get into an attitude of "oh we cant say that because the press wont like it" This is defeatist and will only lead to the demise of an alternative voice in this country.

It is part of the challenge of whoever wins this long drawn out election to form a new relationship with the media. But this should not be at the expense of saying what you actually believe.

The Labour party of 2016 should major on getting a strong,effective,efficient media team together to fight on the front foot rather than acting in a reactive manner waiting for the next brickbat. It needs to attack to the government wherever and whenever there is an opportunity. This needs to be across the party whether in the Commons, Lords,Local Government,TV,Papers.

I believe what the public want is an effective and virile opposition. People will accept the odd error of judgment if they see a party that is willing to stand up for its beliefs,hold an unloved government to account but they will not countenance a cowardly, mealy mouthed party.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 10:37 am

As others pointed out how much enslavement, rape and murder of women and non believers is acceptable in Corbyn's mind?

A truly disgraceful comment. You should be ashamed of yourself.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 10:42 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Is Labour purging supporters of Jeremy Corbyn?
What is the science behind getting kicked out of Labour's leadership process?
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... emy-corbyn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Gives a bit of information about the process, the kind of distinctions being used to block someone etc. And say 'No' the party isn't trying to purge itself of JC supporters.

So what does Labour's the party's plan to ensure a "clean" leadership ballot, dubbed "Operation Icepick" by outsiders, actually involve? The doomsday scenario at headquarters isn't a Corbyn victory - all but one or two of the party's staff believe that is inevitable - but a legal challenge following a close Corbyn victory.

Yep, this could actually give a JC win greater legitimacy. Which he needs given the ingrained hostility of much of the PLP.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 10:49 am

Tonight's Any Questions on Radio 4.

Ritula Shah presents political debate from the Radio Theatre at Broadcasting House, London, with the Labour leadership contender Jeremy Corbyn MP, the historian Dan Jones, Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee and the Secretary of State for the Department of the Environment Food and Rural Affairs Elizabeth Truss.

I might well be listening to that one.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 11:14 am

And having now listened to *this particular* JC exchange, he was clearly talking about the *Iraqi government* and how they could regain control in the swathes of the north that are at present deeply hostile to them. Clearly this will require some sort of political process as well as military action.

I don't entirely agree with him on this, and even if I did I wouldn't have expressed myself in the same way. But this is small beer compared to some other Corbyn foreign policy stuff tbh.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 11:22 am

refitman - thank you!

mikems - quite right.

ScarletGas - once again, you've written something I wish I'd written.

What I have written is a new blogpost here - http://www.thegrimsqueaker.wordpress.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - it's about the NHS. Well, my NHS.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jeremy Hardy, and others like him - this is difficult, not least because of the bleating tone and general sulkiness of it all, but also because he has been a Labour supporter for many years.
There are probably quite a few people who supported Labour for a long time, but chose to vote otherwise at the last election because they felt that Ed Miliband wasn't left enough or forceful enough.

There have been many misjudgements about Ed; I think he hasn't helped matters by being so conciliatory to his established New Labour colleagues he had in his cabinet, and his apparent (note - apparent) reluctance to change the guard.
But - and it's a big but - he had a difficult job to keep his party together, and under his leadership there was at least a semblance of unity. I think that people like Hardy could, and should, have kept the faith and voted him in - even if only to get rid of Cameron.

People like that clearly wanted a Labour moving towards the left; now that there is a possibility of that, they want back in. I'm not sure there is anything seriously wrong with that. I don't think choosing to vote for a more left-wing party at the GE is necessarily a disqualification from voting in this contest now - especially if the person concerned can demonstrate that they have been Labour supporters for a long time.

This is all very difficult. So far, the numbers being excluded (allegedly) seem to be quite small, and I'm not sure if a few thousand votes will make a massive difference unless the vote is fag-paper close. At the moment, it doesn't seem to be that close.
Some of the candidates in both contests have asked people to email their teams if they are excluded, so that their validation can be looked at again. I think that's a good thing, and hopefully it will iron out some of the issues people are having.

At the end of the G's article on Hardy, there's a quote from Corbyn - "But the issue really is, let's be happy about getting 600,000 people taking part in an election". I think he's right.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 11:42 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
yahyah wrote:But look at what he actually said. He called Isis 'brutal', he doesn't condone their actions.

& the remarks are from last year, a lot of the Isis violence-porn pics and reports the media have been publishing, seemingly more to titillate or provoke amygdala type responses than anything else, [just look at the Mail's coverage], has been more in the last six or nine months.
When he talks about a political accommodation with ISIS he has crossed the line. As others pointed out how much enslavement, rape and murder of women and non believers is acceptable in Corbyn's mind? He probably doesn't think of it like that, but that is the logical end of his argument.

Corbyn needs to understand that some things have to be fought, and some things require military force. You cannot negotiate with these people you need to destroy them (which oddly starts with cutting a peace deal with Iran rather than just futilely lobbing bombs in their general direction).

When you add CND, a plan to leave NATO and to slash defence industries it all looks a bit weak for a PM. That will be the Tory line.

Yeah because bombing the middle east has been such a successful policy in curtailing the spread of terrorism. I mean we dropped more ordnance on Iraq in 2003 than we exploded during the whole of World War Two and how has it helped? Who exactly are we going to bomb in Syria? othher than innocent children of course? Are we on Assad's side in spite of him using chemical weapons then?

Some of you warmongers need to think about the human cost of what you are proposing, and the abject failure of that approach for the last fifteen years. It is liberal intervention that created Daesh, armed it, drove its spread, and widened its support. But you want to throw more bombs?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 11:42 am

ephemerid wrote:refitman - thank you!

mikems - quite right.

ScarletGas - once again, you've written something I wish I'd written.

What I have written is a new blogpost here - http://www.thegrimsqueaker.wordpress.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - it's about the NHS. Well, my NHS.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jeremy Hardy, and others like him - this is difficult, not least because of the bleating tone and general sulkiness of it all, but also because he has been a Labour supporter for many years.
There are probably quite a few people who supported Labour for a long time, but chose to vote otherwise at the last election because they felt that Ed Miliband wasn't left enough or forceful enough.

There have been many misjudgements about Ed; I think he hasn't helped matters by being so conciliatory to his established New Labour colleagues he had in his cabinet, and his apparent (note - apparent) reluctance to change the guard.
But - and it's a big but - he had a difficult job to keep his party together, and under his leadership there was at least a semblance of unity. I think that people like Hardy could, and should, have kept the faith and voted him in - even if only to get rid of Cameron.

People like that clearly wanted a Labour moving towards the left; now that there is a possibility of that, they want back in. I'm not sure there is anything seriously wrong with that. I don't think choosing to vote for a more left-wing party at the GE is necessarily a disqualification from voting in this contest now - especially if the person concerned can demonstrate that they have been Labour supporters for a long time.

This is all very difficult. So far, the numbers being excluded (allegedly) seem to be quite small, and I'm not sure if a few thousand votes will make a massive difference unless the vote is fag-paper close. At the moment, it doesn't seem to be that close.
Some of the candidates in both contests have asked people to email their teams if they are excluded, so that their validation can be looked at again. I think that's a good thing, and hopefully it will iron out some of the issues people are having.

At the end of the G's article on Hardy, there's a quote from Corbyn - "But the issue really is, let's be happy about getting 600,000 people taking part in an election". I think he's right.

Is the link in your post working okay?
Is there a technical problem on my end?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 12:20 pm

Perhaps I had better finish my tale. Yes you were all right I was not invited in, collected the money then went on my way. We did have a good laugh at my predicament however. Seriously though it may have been the same day, possibly not, that at the very top of a steep hill as I was collecting monies I noticed the milk float sliding toward parked vehicles a little further down. That was some dash in rather treacherous conditions. Thankfully I managed to get on board and steer into the pavement. It took me bloody ages to extricate myself and had to get people to move their cars.

Christmas was a particularly busy time, normally three days delivery in one go. I don't know whether there were a clash with a weekend or not but we were allowed the option of doing a delivery late on Christmas Eve. That was fun, many of our customers were just getting home after celebrations and were naturally very generous with the Christmas cheer. Strictly speaking most of us should not have been on the roads after a short while. Funnily enough the tax man had decided that now was the time to tax our tips. I gather there used to be competitive banter of how well they'd done in previous years. I must confess that is one occasion where I may have lied.

I shall behave now. Permission to slap my wrist if I go off topic again.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 12:41 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Actually, on reading the rest of it, some sounds alarming...if true of course.

''to the ridiculous – one member was reported for failing to attend the CLP barbecue''.
Yes that's clearly very petty but according to the article no decision to deny a vote had been taken on that ridiculous charge. You might hope that the NEC might think about suggesting some new improved guidelines for governance of local parties when they see examples like that one!

You'd have thought GCHQ could have helped, rr2.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 12:48 pm

citizenJA wrote: Is the link in your post working okay?
Is there a technical problem on my end?

There is zero problem your end, Citoyen.

I have posted the wrong thing, as per usual. D'oh.

http://www.thegrimsqueakerreturns.wordpress.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; TGS has returned. It's all in a word....

If that doesn't work (and knowing me it probably won't) just google thegrimsqueakerreturns

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 12:52 pm

Peter Jukes ‏@peterjukes 59m59 minutes ago
A lot of pro Corbyn supporters I talk to are not at all on the left of the party: someone needs to figure this out. Name calling wont' do it

Peter Jukes ‏@peterjukes 46m46 minutes ago
Politicians are always talking about engaging the public more in politics. When that happens, they say 'Oh no. The press won't like this'

Peter Jukes ‏@peterjukes 21m21 minutes ago
How much is Corbynmania actually a response to the other 3 candidates I wonder, rather than some huge ideological turmoil in Labour?

Good points from Jukes.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 21 Aug, 2015 12:54 pm

ephemerid wrote:
citizenJA wrote: Is the link in your post working okay?
Is there a technical problem on my end?
There is zero problem your end, Citoyen.

I have posted the wrong thing, as per usual. D'oh.

http://www.thegrimsqueakerreturns.wordpress.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; TGS has returned. It's all in a word....

If that doesn't work (and knowing me it probably won't) just google thegrimsqueakerreturns

I wish Grim would return here. Miss him.