Wednesday 26th August 2015

[ohsocynical]

Fuck me! Headline on Cif:

Ladies! You won’t be leading the Labour party, so here’s a women-only train carriage

I know it's Ann Perkins, but FFS.

OMG!!!!!!!

She has white hair!!!!! She must be really really old!!!!! Cripes - she's over 60!!!!

Pointless arguing with her - she can't LEARN anything, you see.

For the people her who seriously believe that being older and not having any experience in the job one is applying for is a bad thing, perhaps they might like to consider that some of us might like to see someone with life experience and empathy in a leadership role.

Nobody knows how the decrepit elderly non-kowtowing-to-the-status-quo generally falling-to-bits Mr.Corbyn would fare in a new job.
Nobody knows how the younger but not-set-in-their-hubristic-ways (erm...) and muscular fit incredibly intelligent (?) others would either.

Nobody is asking this man to pilot a plane. Nobody is asking this man to run the country now. Nobody is asking this man to do owt.

He has chosen to stand up and ask his party to nominate him for a leadership contest. They duly obliged.
He has chosen to speak all over the country, and a lot of people have chosen to listen to what he has to say.
He has chosen to put forward ideas and a vision that people seem to be connecting with.
He has chosen not to engage in petty name-calling whatever the provocation.
He has chosen to conduct himself in a manner becoming to others who could learn from his example.

The people not doing the learning here are the other candidates who appear stuck in some New Labour time warp.
The people not doing the learning here are the party heirarchy who are engaged in some Spaddish Inquisition.
The people not doing the learning are both the above who are treating their own electoral system with utter contempt.

Corbyn is not too old to be open to ideas; he is not too old to be zapping around London on his bike; he is not too old to be travelling the length and breadth of the country on a daily basis; he is not too old to maintain his passion and energy in speeches and rallies he's attending every day; he's not too old to lead his party and he's not too old to marshal support. As the evidence shows.

I have read some patronising twaddle here on occasion, but this takes the biscuit. "Too old to learn" my arse. How dare you?

Quite right.

Mr Ohso retired from his regular job at 65 and trained to work with people with mental and physical disabilities including dementia.
He loved it. I don't need to say that it can be an extremely difficult job. He often used to say he wished he'd done it years ago.

But, I don't think he'd have been half so patient or good at it when younger. It took age and experience to give him the understanding and patience to tackle delicate situations that cropped up almost daily.

And finally. We get far more crafty as we get older. At least I have. And crafty's no bad thing in politics.

[ohsocynical]

Tbh I am thinking of joining Robert in taking a break from here until Sept 12, tbh.

I have family and friends who are voting for Corbyn as leader - they aren't "nutters", they aren't "entryists", they aren't unworldly dreamers who hate Labour being in power and winning elections, or are caught up in some reason-free "bandwagon". They are doing so for entirely rational and - yes - understandable reasons. They are doing so well aware of his failings and foibles, and that he doesn't offer some magical miraculous solution.

They are doing so because THINGS NEED TO CHANGE - the very future of the Labour party depends on that. Where I disagree with them is that I don't think it is necessary to vote for JC to do that, but I can understand them disagreeing given the sheer awfulness of the 3 "mainstream" campaigns.

Corbyn's leadership could be a car crash from day one as the likes of McSmith assert - if so he won't last long and his chances of leading Labour into the GE (even if he wants to, whch is far from a given) are precisely zero. Or some good could actually come out of it. Those who wish the left well should desire the latter.

Now let's calm down, everybody

Just stick your fingers in your ears, hum loudly and keep the finger that controls 'Scroll' nice and supple. That's what I do most of the time.

[utopiandreams]

... It's a sweeping assumption.

Ever heard of the University of the 3rd Age? Go and do a course on gerontology, you might learn something.

Perhaps I may add my twopennyworth too, Robert, having been an OU tutor of five or six differing computer technologies. Young and old alike. Granted I did notice that when I first returned to my own studies, not as old as many I have taught, the old cogs did need oiling but soon came back with practice. Besides even in completely new fields wisdom also has a bearing in how one approaches such things.

This is one occasion where I shall not hold back, Hugo. Please do not jump to conclusions that you know nothing of.

Edit: inserted paragraph break.

[ephemerid]

[quote="pk1"]

"Personal opinion, same as each one of us has but because it's Hugo, it's attack attack attack."

No - it's not because of who it is but because of what is said and the manner of its' delivery.

You, pk1, are someone for whom I have a great deal of liking and respect - but when you left us, your reason was that FTN had become unbalanced and anyone who did not support Corbyn was not welcome, and I do not agree with you on that. Elsewhere, we have had a brief exchange on the subject and I think it would be nice if we could simply agree to disagree.

As far as I can see, despite frequently differing opinions here, there is no poster who is causing bad feeling bar one. Hugo has a way of winding people up - whether that is deliberate or accidental is irrelevant - and this latest spat with Robert and others is not new. In fact, I don't see anyone else doing this however cross they get or however much they disagree.

Now I don't know if you have a friendship with Hugo or if you feel it is necessary to defend him; but it is not accurate to say what you said above. If anyone else posted the way he does, I would call them out on it too.

Personally, I wish you would come back and post regularly. I miss you and I know I'm not the only one.

[ohsocynical]

I didn't support Corbyn in the leadership poll (I voted for Cooper) but I do quite admire Corbyn's assertive manner with interviewers. Labour politicians have, in my view, been a bit too accommodating and polite with snotty and hostile political journalists who do everything they can to trip them up by constant interrupting or bringing up stuff which they think will embarrass them.

Whether that means he can convince Middle England to vote for him remains to be seen. He will need to be very forthright about defending Labour's economic record, which Ed (despite his other qualities) did not do - although to be fair almost the entire media was peddling the Tory and LibDem lies about Labour supposedly crashing the economy. Corbyn needs to understand that Middle England realise that the Tories are bastards - unfortunately they haven't cottoned on to the fact that they're ALSO total incompetents.

Agree.
The trouble with middle England is they still get stars in their eyes when you mention Eton. After all they put their male sprogs names down for the posh schools the minute they're born. Before the poor little sods cord is cut they're picturing him as PM.

[rebeccariots2]

Vulnerable are easy targets as a Job Centre Plus whistleblower reveals the scandal of benefits sanctions
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scott ... re-6320363" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It might make you answer some questions before you can read the article ... there are about 6 questions ... took me about 1 min.

“The pressure comes from your line managers, but ultimately it comes from the Government.

“There were a lot of staff disgusted when Duncan Smith went on the TV and said, ‘Oh no, we don’t have targets.’ Because we had been told, ‘You’ve got to sanction.’

“It’s very hard to sit in that 
position and know you’re stopping someone’s money unfairly.

“There’s no leeway. If someone’s late because they’re not used to signing on, or they forgot to write down what they’ve been doing to find work, they can get sanctioned.

“And if you don’t give out sanctions, you’re not doing your job properly. It goes towards your end-of-year report and whether you get your bonus.

“At one of our weekly meetings, I spoke out. I said, ‘There’s no way I’m going to do that.’

“I was told in no uncertain terms, ‘That is your job and you will do it.’

[pk1]

If what I have said is the reason for Robert & Anatoly to leave, then please mods (Refitman I presume since you seem to be the poor sod that's left to do everything) contact them & tell them to come back.

I will leave, for good this time so whilst you're about it Dan, please block my IP address so I won't ever be tempted to make a response to something I think is unfair.

Cheers for the good times all, take care of yourselves.

[yahyah]

I can understand why often we fell out here about which party to vote for in May, but it would be a shame if the same happened amongst people who voted Labour & want a future for the party.

None of us has a unique right to be right, on the Labour leader as much as anything.

[StephenDolan]

I'd like to think FTN could be as big a tent as possible. It's always a shame to see good people leave.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Its certainly not you pk1, in fact I wish you would post more again

I say this with genuine respect, though - if you think the support for JC (who, again, is not my first choice for leader) is just a "bandwagon" then you are mistaken. It is no more a "bandwagon" than the support for Blair was two decades ago. In both cases, it was/is much more serious and profound.

Change is coming whether we like it or not - that was what Mr Tony used to say. He was right then, and - even though he hates the "change" coming now - he still is.

[citizenJA]

.

Hmmm, is Jezza starting to get the hang of this leadership lark?

No.

And I suspect at 66 he is too old to learn.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 71438.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i won't have lots of sympathy for him, but I will have some.

No one is ever too old to learn.
You'll never be too old to learn and neither will I.
And so no one ever ducks responsibility by claiming it's impossible to try.
Your commentary has consistently indicated a lack of sympathy or empathy.
I understood nothing I write can likely alter your opinion or writing unless you want it to.
I write this to communicate my opinion about yours for anyone who cares to read it.
I hope there's some wisdom in it.

[ephemerid]

On "women-only" carriages......from elsewhere on the Guardian -

"In the document Corbyn stresses he would prefer not to introduce women-only carriages"

(NB - British Transport Police figures show there were over 1,400 reported cases of sexual assault last year. This sort of crime is one of the most under-reported there is. There were also muggings, knifings, and other violent assaults. Some of those involved men, some only men.)

Corbyn said - "Some women have raised with me that a solution to the rise in assault and harassment on public transport could be to introduce women-only carriages. My intention would be to make public transport safer for everyone from the train platform to the bus stop to the mode of transport itself".
He went on to say that he would open up a consultation; and if necessary, consider a pilot in an area and/or type of transport where the reports of harassment etc. happened most frequently".

Quite how that translates into "Corbyn will bring in women-only carriages" is a mystery - but sure enough, along with the petty little piece from Perkins, all 3 of the other candidates condemn the policy (it's not actually a policy) as bad for women etc. and trot along with the hype.

[ohsocynical]

I thought Labour's main problem was clawing back the voters who deserted them despite Ed's best efforts...A lot left for UKIP and the Greens.

Am I right that the Cons share of the vote wasn't much changed this time? That they don't appeal to the young, and their traditional blue rinse supporters are gradually dying off.

Like it or not Corbyn seems to be bringing a lot of ex-Labour supporters back into the fold.

[citizenJA]

If what I have said is the reason for Robert & Anatoly to leave, then please mods (Refitman I presume since you seem to be the poor sod that's left to do everything) contact them & tell them to come back.

I will leave, for good this time so whilst you're about it Dan, please block my IP address so I won't ever be tempted to make a response to something I think is unfair.

Cheers for the good times all, take care of yourselves.

I wish you wouldn't go.
No one need go.

[ephemerid]

If what I have said is the reason for Robert & Anatoly to leave, then please mods (Refitman I presume since you seem to be the poor sod that's left to do everything) contact them & tell them to come back.

I will leave, for good this time so whilst you're about it Dan, please block my IP address so I won't ever be tempted to make a response to something I think is unfair.

Cheers for the good times all, take care of yourselves.

Please don't go, pk1.

Whatever else people here disagree on, we all want to see a strong opposition now and a Labour government as soon as possible.

I wish you'd come back properly, and I wish Robert and Anatoly would stay.

[citizenJA]

On "women-only" carriages......from elsewhere on the Guardian -

"In the document Corbyn stresses he would prefer not to introduce women-only carriages"

(NB - British Transport Police figures show there were over 1,400 reported cases of sexual assault last year. This sort of crime is one of the most under-reported there is. There were also muggings, knifings, and other violent assaults. Some of those involved men, some only men.)

Corbyn said - "Some women have raised with me that a solution to the rise in assault and harassment on public transport could be to introduce women-only carriages. My intention would be to make public transport safer for everyone from the train platform to the bus stop to the mode of transport itself".
He went on to say that he would open up a consultation; and if necessary, consider a pilot in an area and/or type of transport where the reports of harassment etc. happened most frequently".

Quite how that translates into "Corbyn will bring in women-only carriages" is a mystery - but sure enough, along with the petty little piece from Perkins, all 3 of the other candidates condemn the policy (it's not actually a policy) as bad for women etc. and trot along with the hype.

Ah!
I knew there was greater nuance than what the headline crap that goes no further regarding Corbyn's opinion here.
Good.

[citizenJA]

If what I have said is the reason for Robert & Anatoly to leave, then please mods (Refitman I presume since you seem to be the poor sod that's left to do everything) contact them & tell them to come back.

I will leave, for good this time so whilst you're about it Dan, please block my IP address so I won't ever be tempted to make a response to something I think is unfair.

Cheers for the good times all, take care of yourselves.

Please don't go, pk1.

Whatever else people here disagree on, we all want to see a strong opposition now and a Labour government as soon as possible.

I wish you'd come back properly, and I wish Robert and Anatoly would stay.

Yes, please, pk1, Robert and Anatoly, stay.

[ohsocynical]

On "women-only" carriages......from elsewhere on the Guardian -

"In the document Corbyn stresses he would prefer not to introduce women-only carriages"

(NB - British Transport Police figures show there were over 1,400 reported cases of sexual assault last year. This sort of crime is one of the most under-reported there is. There were also muggings, knifings, and other violent assaults. Some of those involved men, some only men.)

Corbyn said - "Some women have raised with me that a solution to the rise in assault and harassment on public transport could be to introduce women-only carriages. My intention would be to make public transport safer for everyone from the train platform to the bus stop to the mode of transport itself".
He went on to say that he would open up a consultation; and if necessary, consider a pilot in an area and/or type of transport where the reports of harassment etc. happened most frequently".

Quite how that translates into "Corbyn will bring in women-only carriages" is a mystery - but sure enough, along with the petty little piece from Perkins, all 3 of the other candidates condemn the policy (it's not actually a policy) as bad for women etc. and trot along with the hype.

You sort of know how these so called journalists vote even without asking them.

[yahyah]

I don't think Corbyn is a bandwagon.

If there had been an excellent candidate, free of past baggage, capable of bringing people together and able to bring in voters the way that Blair managed, even if they were more to the centre right of the party I'd have voted for them.

For me Cooper & Burnham failed that test. Cooper has particularly disappointed as the campaign's gone on, much as I would have loved a good female leader.
Kendall...just no for me.

So, I could have abstained, something I've moaned at politicians for doing, or vote for the candidate who talks plainly, calmly, positively and seems willing to tackle things at a basic level.

Another Uriah Heepish leader, telling the right wing press want they want to hear all the time about what bad boys/girls Labour were in the past, in my opinion would be a disaster.

But anyone telling me I'm on a bandwagon will get a robust reply.

[yahyah]

Don't anyone mention that I might have accused Labour defectors to the SNP as jumping on a bandwagon. That wasn't me, but my evil twin.

[citizenJA]

Off topic, but as we have some lovely gents on this board can I ask:

Why do men think they shouldn't feel fear?

Why do some young men feel no fear when they're behind the wheel of a car? There was an accident 100 yards down the road last night, car came down the road too fast and couldn't make the right angle bend at the bottom. I didn't hear the crash but saw the blue flashing lights when the emergency services arrived, went out to speak to the policeman to make sure it wasn't mr gilsey, who was at the pub in the next village. One car, with 'some lads' in.
2 fire engines, 3 ambulances as well as the police.
Feeling sorry for the neighbours, who will no doubt have gone out to see if there was anything they could do, other than dial 999. Haven't seen them yet.

On a selfish note, there was an ambulance directly outside our house from midnight till nearly 1, with its blue lights flashing the whole time. Why?

Protocol requires emergency vehicles at the scene to continue lights as long as the team is on the spot.

[Willow904]

If what I have said is the reason for Robert & Anatoly to leave, then please mods (Refitman I presume since you seem to be the poor sod that's left to do everything) contact them & tell them to come back.

I will leave, for good this time so whilst you're about it Dan, please block my IP address so I won't ever be tempted to make a response to something I think is unfair.

Cheers for the good times all, take care of yourselves.

I don't know if it makes any difference, but I don't think either Robert or AK have left. They both expressed similar exasperation of going round in circles and maybe taking a break until the leadership contest is over, which is very easy to sympathise with.

May I humbly suggest to everyone in general, in order to help everyone get more from the forum, that we all try to widen the debate a little. I particularly enjoyed the discussions about the run on the Chinese stock market we had on Monday, for instance.

On a very selfish level, pk, I feel a little lonely in my lack of getting why everyone is so keen on Corbyn and rather appreciate your rare comments in support of my rather unpopular position, which I have been trying to occupy with as much deference to other's feelings as I can. I want Andy Burnham to win, have said so on several occasions and I certainly don't see why my opinion or your opinion on the leadership should upset anyone or make them want to leave, so please only leave if posting and reading here is upsetting you yourself and not because of any worries of upsetting others as I'm sure you're not.

[ohsocynical]

Harry Leslie Smith ‏@Harryslaststand 14h14 hours ago
I saw refugees in Europe after WW2 & how Britain tried to do right by them that's why our shallow response to #refugeecrisis is shameful

This suddenly made me remember and think.

After the war, while we were still on strict rationing, the government cut our rations even more in order to feed all the refugees, the displaced and those who until a short time before had been our enemies. They were starving. In far worse shape than we were.

It wasn't a popular decision amongst a lot of the UK, but it was done.

I am sick to the stomach to realise, that with the majority of politicians we have now it wouldn't happen.

I reckon Corbyn would be the exception.

[RogerOThornhill]

That "Corbyn has policy of women-only carriages" is a classic of the "we must get a headline from everything no matter what" and sums up what an utterly dismal media we have.

Media distorts something > goads others to reply to misrepresentation > leads to further headline > media rubs its hands and thinks its doing its job by reporting it.

[yahyah]

& the usual suspects claiming Corbyn wants to pander to Muslims who want segregation.

[citizenJA]

I'm having to remind myself on a daily - if not hourly - basis to stay calm and try not to be too affected by the media hysteria over just about every aspect of the Labour leadership contest. Every thing that could be is being blown up into mega proportions - it's totally unhelpful. None of them are monsters. All of the candidates have said some things that have been seized on and made as extreme as possible by the media and various factions. It's not helpful.

It's certainly not worth falling out with others over. Then the media and those who want to shit stir over Labour as much as they can have achieved their aim and fostered even more division.

Exactly.

[nickyinnorfolk]

@nickyinnorfolk

Thanks for another example, nucky, albeit one close to your heart that deserves far better. Time was a working man could support his family, put a roof over their heads, feed and clothe the kids. Firstly I'd better make clear that I demand equality in the workplace, my own mother worked full time even when we were young. Back then young kiddies were allowed out unsupervised provided they were back for tea and indeed stay at home with a kindly neighbour keeping an eye out or available if necessary. In my own case I guess I were quite young and partly responsible for my siblings my being the eldest. During school holidays we had used to go to a woman who took kids in, but she'd go out and leave her 14 year old son in charge. He was a bully and played perverted games lining us all up in our underwear making us tweak the waistbands of the opposite sex for a peek. He would do so to all of us too, even chalk mathematical sums on a blackboard and make us take turns solving them and hit those who failed to do them correctly. Even as a five or six year old I could put him to shame but that's another story. We kids had to do all the woman's housework too.

Of course we'd tell our parents but they didn't believe us even though all three of us stuck to the same story. Eventually and as I say I was probably six or seven by then I was left in charge. I have no idea whether or not they finally believed us, nevertheless they did appreciate how unhappy we were to go there. Frankly the childminder should have been reported, I know not if she were.

I've gone off on one again, haven't I? Back to today, 'scrounging workless' households are what I wish to address. Poor old Mum and Dad cannot find work <tory>it's a lifestyle choice</tory>, but the kids have grown up now so are no longer dependents. Bloody hell are there no jobs for the young? No worries social security shall help, but they cannot claim any housing benefit, but why should they expect to leave home whilst not working? I'm pretty damn sure that unless there are extenuating circumstances they wouldn't, but let's say they do and do not deserve hard-working tax-payers money.

Anyway as they've stopped at home and claim their JSA (until sanctioned that is) any Housing Benefit that Mum and Dad get shall be reduced by 20 odd quid per person. Is the youngster expected to cover the shortfall out of what is it 50 something pounds? 'And I haven't even begun to consider illness or disability yet.

Cameron disgusts me, a multi millionaire who claimed DLA for his infant... 'And then there's the Bedroom Tax that he repeatedly stated would not affect the disabled. Talk about a greedy fucker. 'And again I must apologise for my language. Sorry if I sometimes appear more forgiving of IDS, it's just that I truly think he is thick. Lack of nouse in Cameron's case, but no such excuse.

Yes, agree with that. And Cameron always brings up poor Ivan as a way of attempting to shut down debate on how the NHS is now in serious crisis.

Regarding that, the Mirror report on a group of psychiatrists on a protest march about cuts to mental health services:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ps ... ow-6319253" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[yahyah]

Harry Leslie Smith ‏@Harryslaststand 14h14 hours ago
I saw refugees in Europe after WW2 & how Britain tried to do right by them that's why our shallow response to #refugeecrisis is shameful

This suddenly made me remember and think.

After the war, while we were still on strict rationing, the government cut our rations even more in order to feed all the refugees, the displaced and those who until a short time before had been our enemies. They were starving. In far worse shape than we were.

It wasn't a popular decision amongst a lot of the UK, but it was done.

I am sick to the stomach to realise, that with the majority of politicians we have now it wouldn't happen.

I reckon Corbyn would be the exception.

Heard someone on Radio 4 putting forward something you virtually never hear in the media when
the migrant issue is being ramped up.

Their radical suggestion was to give humanitarian aid to the countries where people are suffering.
Far better to do that, help improve the lives of people in their own country rather than buy & install hundreds of miles of razor wire.

[citizenJA]

Power tools operating at high decibels here.
God damn it.
Just let it grow.

[Willow904]

I thought Labour's main problem was clawing back the voters who deserted them despite Ed's best efforts...A lot left for UKIP and the Greens.

Am I right that the Cons share of the vote wasn't much changed this time? That they don't appeal to the young, and their traditional blue rinse supporters are gradually dying off.

Like it or not Corbyn seems to be bringing a lot of ex-Labour supporters back into the fold.

Yep. Libdem share went down in Tory/Libdem marginals, meaning that all the Tories had to do was win the same support as last time to win a seat off the Libdems. They stood still as others fell back and Labour improved only in areas where it didn't help (like Tory/Libdem marginals - death of tactical voting).

The Libdems held many natural Tory seats from 1992 onwards and it was only through regaining these seats from their Coalition partners that the Tories scraped a majority. A Libdem revival is almost as crucial to Labour's hopes as a revival of their own, imo.

[citizenJA]

I thought Labour's main problem was clawing back the voters who deserted them despite Ed's best efforts...A lot left for UKIP and the Greens.

Am I right that the Cons share of the vote wasn't much changed this time? That they don't appeal to the young, and their traditional blue rinse supporters are gradually dying off.

Like it or not Corbyn seems to be bringing a lot of ex-Labour supporters back into the fold.

Yep. Libdem share went down in Tory/Libdem marginals, meaning that all the Tories had to do was win the same support as last time to win a seat off the Libdems. They stood still as others fell back and Labour improved only in areas where it didn't help (like Tory/Libdem marginals - death of tactical voting).

The Libdems held many natural Tory seats from 1992 onwards and it was only through regaining these seats from their Coalition partners that the Tories scraped a majority. A Libdem revival is almost as crucial to Labour's hopes as a revival of their own, imo.

Gads - a LibDem revival to help Labour?
Yuck.

[citizenJA]

The stink of fossil fuel powered high decibel power tools makes me hurt all over.

[citizenJA]

Being older has lots of advantages. If you have decades of doing something you'll usually have experience that makes you far more valuable at that than someone without.

However, not everything about getting older is great. It is harder to learn new tasks, and if you have little experience of something (eg speaking French) you'll usually perform more poorly at picking it up than someone younger.

I don't think this is ageist.

It's a sweeping assumption.

Ever heard of the University of the 3rd Age? Go and do a course on gerontology, you might learn something.

I have heard of it, but I am not sure that retirees taking up things like the piano is really analogous.

You have to look to the US to find politicians who have attained the most important government job at similar ages. So, Reagan was 69 in 1980 (Corbyn will be 71 in 2020). But Reagan had been governor of California for eight years. Age is not necessarily a problem, but age and inexperience is.

Attlee was 62 in 1945, but he'd been deputy PM during the war, and had had many other leadership roles before that.

I am trying to think of an example similar to Corbyn but failing.

Is there anyone we can think of who took on such a major leadership role for the first time at his age and made a success of it?

There must be examples, but my imagination is failing me. I must be getting old.

FDR - USA

He had polio and was permanently disabled because of it too.

[ohsocynical]

Harry Leslie Smith ‏@Harryslaststand 14h14 hours ago
I saw refugees in Europe after WW2 & how Britain tried to do right by them that's why our shallow response to #refugeecrisis is shameful

This suddenly made me remember and think.

After the war, while we were still on strict rationing, the government cut our rations even more in order to feed all the refugees, the displaced and those who until a short time before had been our enemies. They were starving. In far worse shape than we were.

It wasn't a popular decision amongst a lot of the UK, but it was done.

I am sick to the stomach to realise, that with the majority of politicians we have now it wouldn't happen.

I reckon Corbyn would be the exception.

Heard someone on Radio 4 putting forward something you virtually never hear in the media when
the migrant issue is being ramped up.

Their radical suggestion was to give humanitarian aid to the countries where people are suffering.
Far better to do that, help improve the lives of people in their own country rather than buy & install hundreds of miles of razor wire.

The other day I was in one of our local charity shops, and there was a well spoken lady helper. I can't remember how the conversation went and how we arrived at the Calais problem but she made a snide remark about immigrants getting through so they could sponge off the State.
I couldn't ignore it. I said perhaps if we hadn't interfered in their country's politics, stirred them up and then sold them arms regardless, perhaps there wouldn't be so many of them trying to leave their homeland...

Her mouth shut with an audible snap...Very satisfying.

[SpinningHugo]

It's a sweeping assumption.

Ever heard of the University of the 3rd Age? Go and do a course on gerontology, you might learn something.

I have heard of it, but I am not sure that retirees taking up things like the piano is really analogous.

You have to look to the US to find politicians who have attained the most important government job at similar ages. So, Reagan was 69 in 1980 (Corbyn will be 71 in 2020). But Reagan had been governor of California for eight years. Age is not necessarily a problem, but age and inexperience is.

Attlee was 62 in 1945, but he'd been deputy PM during the war, and had had many other leadership roles before that.

I am trying to think of an example similar to Corbyn but failing.

Is there anyone we can think of who took on such a major leadership role for the first time at his age and made a success of it?

There must be examples, but my imagination is failing me. I must be getting old.

FDR - USA

He had polio and was permanently disabled because of it too.

FDR was dead at 62.

[citizenJA]

I have heard of it, but I am not sure that retirees taking up things like the piano is really analogous.

You have to look to the US to find politicians who have attained the most important government job at similar ages. So, Reagan was 69 in 1980 (Corbyn will be 71 in 2020). But Reagan had been governor of California for eight years. Age is not necessarily a problem, but age and inexperience is.

Attlee was 62 in 1945, but he'd been deputy PM during the war, and had had many other leadership roles before that.

I am trying to think of an example similar to Corbyn but failing.

Is there anyone we can think of who took on such a major leadership role for the first time at his age and made a success of it?

There must be examples, but my imagination is failing me. I must be getting old.

FDR - USA

He had polio and was permanently disabled because of it too.

FDR was dead at 62.

Yep, you're right.
You're sharping than you think, SpinningHugo.
Look how fast you are!

[citizenJA]

If what I have said is the reason for Robert & Anatoly to leave, then please mods (Refitman I presume since you seem to be the poor sod that's left to do everything) contact them & tell them to come back.

I will leave, for good this time so whilst you're about it Dan, please block my IP address so I won't ever be tempted to make a response to something I think is unfair.

Cheers for the good times all, take care of yourselves.

I don't know if it makes any difference, but I don't think either Robert or AK have left. They both expressed similar exasperation of going round in circles and maybe taking a break until the leadership contest is over, which is very easy to sympathise with.

May I humbly suggest to everyone in general, in order to help everyone get more from the forum, that we all try to widen the debate a little. I particularly enjoyed the discussions about the run on the Chinese stock market we had on Monday, for instance.

On a very selfish level, pk, I feel a little lonely in my lack of getting why everyone is so keen on Corbyn and rather appreciate your rare comments in support of my rather unpopular position, which I have been trying to occupy with as much deference to other's feelings as I can. I want Andy Burnham to win, have said so on several occasions and I certainly don't see why my opinion or your opinion on the leadership should upset anyone or make them want to leave, so please only leave if posting and reading here is upsetting you yourself and not because of any worries of upsetting others as I'm sure you're not.

I'm a Labour supporter.
I detest Tories in government for over five years.
That is all.

[nickyinnorfolk]

Peter Oborne foresees disaster for our economy with regard to the China crisis.

Cameron and co are going to bitterly regret that they lied their way back into power.

I noted particularly the news about the sacking of chief financial regulator Martin Wheatley, which I hadn't known about before.

Oborne isn't entirely fair about Brown in my view, and he repeats the factoid about Healey and the IMF. Other than that, an enlightening if disturbing read.

'.... our economy is not yet on anything like an even keel after the banking collapse of 2008. Since that year, our national debt has more than doubled to an out-of-control £1.5 trillion.

This is truly terrifying because it means that if British banks were to go to the wall, as they did in 2008, then the State would have neither the means nor capacity to bail them out.

Apart from a handful of superficial reforms, Osborne has managed to achieve little to rein in or restructure the banking sector. Just as in 2008, our banks are fatally ‘too big to fail’.

Thus, the ingredients are in place for another fiscal crisis.

Most worryingly, Osborne has allowed the City of London to return to the deeply flawed system of ‘light touch’ regulation, which helped to cause the 2008 crash.

Our financial institutions have once again been liberated to bet trillions of pounds on assets they cannot value or even understand.

This new lax environment was symbolised five weeks ago with the disgraceful sacking of Britain’s top financial regulator, Martin Wheatley, as the chief executive of the Financial Conduct Authority.

It had been an open secret for some time that his tough, no-nonsense approach to regulation was deeply resented by City financiers, who loathed his interference with their free-wheeling ways.

I am told that City figures expressed their concern about him to the Treasury, who duly delivered the coup de grace to Mr Wheatley.

Most troubling, the Cameron government has done little to challenge the failed system of its catastrophic Labour predecessor, which was led by Gordon Brown, who allowed spending and credit to run rampant. George Osborne (who has run up larger deficits by far than Brown managed) has pursued the same policy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... z3jveDDgGM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TechnicalEphemera]

That "Corbyn has policy of women-only carriages" is a classic of the "we must get a headline from everything no matter what" and sums up what an utterly dismal media we have.

Media distorts something > goads others to reply to misrepresentation > leads to further headline > media rubs its hands and thinks its doing its job by reporting it.

Yes I agree with all of that, but he was very unwise to say it for exactly those reasons. Which was my original head in hands moments.

He is going to have to stop proposing interesting ideas, because the media will jump on everything.

Even so that Perkins article is an absolute shocker. The sort of thing you expect from the Daily Hate. The racists banging on about segregation was of course sadly predictable, but they will always find some reason to bang on about Muslims.

[Willow904]

I thought Labour's main problem was clawing back the voters who deserted them despite Ed's best efforts...A lot left for UKIP and the Greens.

Am I right that the Cons share of the vote wasn't much changed this time? That they don't appeal to the young, and their traditional blue rinse supporters are gradually dying off.

Like it or not Corbyn seems to be bringing a lot of ex-Labour supporters back into the fold.

Yep. Libdem share went down in Tory/Libdem marginals, meaning that all the Tories had to do was win the same support as last time to win a seat off the Libdems. They stood still as others fell back and Labour improved only in areas where it didn't help (like Tory/Libdem marginals - death of tactical voting).

The Libdems held many natural Tory seats from 1992 onwards and it was only through regaining these seats from their Coalition partners that the Tories scraped a majority. A Libdem revival is almost as crucial to Labour's hopes as a revival of their own, imo.

Gads - a LibDem revival to help Labour?
Yuck.

Yeah, sorry about that. Didn't mean to put you off your lunch!

[TechnicalEphemera]

Peter Oborne foresees disaster for our economy with regard to the China crisis.

Cameron and co are going to bitterly regret that they lied their way back into power.

I noted particularly the news about the sacking of chief financial regulator Martin Wheatley, which I hadn't known about before.

Oborne isn't entirely fair about Brown in my view, and he repeats the factoid about Healey and the IMF. Other than that, an enlightening if disturbing read.

'.... our economy is not yet on anything like an even keel after the banking collapse of 2008. Since that year, our national debt has more than doubled to an out-of-control £1.5 trillion.

This is truly terrifying because it means that if British banks were to go to the wall, as they did in 2008, then the State would have neither the means nor capacity to bail them out.

Apart from a handful of superficial reforms, Osborne has managed to achieve little to rein in or restructure the banking sector. Just as in 2008, our banks are fatally ‘too big to fail’.

Thus, the ingredients are in place for another fiscal crisis.

Most worryingly, Osborne has allowed the City of London to return to the deeply flawed system of ‘light touch’ regulation, which helped to cause the 2008 crash.

Our financial institutions have once again been liberated to bet trillions of pounds on assets they cannot value or even understand.

This new lax environment was symbolised five weeks ago with the disgraceful sacking of Britain’s top financial regulator, Martin Wheatley, as the chief executive of the Financial Conduct Authority.

It had been an open secret for some time that his tough, no-nonsense approach to regulation was deeply resented by City financiers, who loathed his interference with their free-wheeling ways.

I am told that City figures expressed their concern about him to the Treasury, who duly delivered the coup de grace to Mr Wheatley.

Most troubling, the Cameron government has done little to challenge the failed system of its catastrophic Labour predecessor, which was led by Gordon Brown, who allowed spending and credit to run rampant. George Osborne (who has run up larger deficits by far than Brown managed) has pursued the same policy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... z3jveDDgGM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Shocking that Osborne has effectively pandered to his city donors on this. If he really is letting Casino banks speculate wildly without ring fencing the retail arm then we have a huge problem. It is small consolation that to be exposed by a crash were the government would fall. Maybe McBride has a point.

[citizenJA]

China's economic crisis will not impact UK housing market, say experts

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/a ... ay-experts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, thank f*** for that.
"Save the UK housing market at all costs!"
While tossing aside human beings requiring a home to live in.

[citizenJA]

That "Corbyn has policy of women-only carriages" is a classic of the "we must get a headline from everything no matter what" and sums up what an utterly dismal media we have.

Media distorts something > goads others to reply to misrepresentation > leads to further headline > media rubs its hands and thinks its doing its job by reporting it.

Yes I agree with all of that, but he was very unwise to say it for exactly those reasons. Which was my original head in hands moments.

He is going to have to stop proposing interesting ideas, because the media will jump on everything.

Even so that Perkins article is an absolute shocker. The sort of thing you expect from the Daily Hate. The racists banging on about segregation was of course sadly predictable, but they will always find some reason to bang on about Muslims.

(my bold)

Oh, jesus christ, TE!

[ohsocynical]

Media distorts something > goads others to reply to misrepresentation > leads to further headline > media rubs its hands and thinks its doing its job by reporting it.

Yes I agree with all of that, but he was very unwise to say it for exactly those reasons. Which was my original head in hands moments.

He is going to have to stop proposing interesting ideas, because the media will jump on everything.

I don't quite know how to react to this statement. Or is it me?

[ohsocynical]

@Citizen J/A


Snap. And thank goodness it's not only me.

[citizenJA]

Meanwhile, look what Tory bastards are up to:

Conservatives offer day of special access to ministers for £2,500
Those paying fee will get chance to meet more than 30 ministers, including David Cameron and George Osborne at party’s annual conference

Corporate executives and lobbyists are being offered the chance to pay £2,500 for a day of special access to Conservative ministers at the party’s annual conference, including George Osborne and David Cameron.

More than 30 ministers are being made available to paying guests at the Conservative party’s “business day” next month, which promises the opportunity for discussion with senior politicians. They include those responsible for business, tax and procurement.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... s-for-2500" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[gilsey]

Off topic, but as we have some lovely gents on this board can I ask:

Why do men think they shouldn't feel fear?

Why do some young men feel no fear when they're behind the wheel of a car? There was an accident 100 yards down the road last night, car came down the road too fast and couldn't make the right angle bend at the bottom. I didn't hear the crash but saw the blue flashing lights when the emergency services arrived, went out to speak to the policeman to make sure it wasn't mr gilsey, who was at the pub in the next village. One car, with 'some lads' in.
2 fire engines, 3 ambulances as well as the police.
Feeling sorry for the neighbours, who will no doubt have gone out to see if there was anything they could do, other than dial 999. Haven't seen them yet.

On a selfish note, there was an ambulance directly outside our house from midnight till nearly 1, with its blue lights flashing the whole time. Why?

Protocol requires emergency vehicles at the scene to continue lights as long as the team is on the spot.

We thought that was probably the case. Allowing a bit of discretion in quiet rural areas when the police are stopping the (minimal) through traffic anyway, would be nice.
I shall concentrate on feeling sympathy for the poor victims families and friends, a much more worthy sentiment. Hope they'll all pull through.

[RogerOThornhill]

'.... our economy is not yet on anything like an even keel after the banking collapse of 2008. Since that year, our national debt has more than doubled to an out-of-control £1.5 trillion.

I would imagine the Debt Management Office might have something to say about the debt being "out of control" since £375bn is held by the Bank of England at an effective interest rate of zero, and the new debt being issued is at an average repayment date that other countries can only dream of.

Repayment dates for debt issued since April is between 2020 and 2068.

We were talking about this the other week - one of Brown's little-heralded achievements was to have the DMO set up independent of the Treasury and who've quietly been increasing the repayment period over the years so that whatever debt the country has, it's managed well. If they managed to cope with the highest borrowing period in 2009/10 (> £150bn) they can certainly manage now...

[RogerOThornhill]

Meanwhile, look what Tory bastards are up to:

Conservatives offer day of special access to ministers for £2,500
Those paying fee will get chance to meet more than 30 ministers, including David Cameron and George Osborne at party’s annual conference

Corporate executives and lobbyists are being offered the chance to pay £2,500 for a day of special access to Conservative ministers at the party’s annual conference, including George Osborne and David Cameron.

More than 30 ministers are being made available to paying guests at the Conservative party’s “business day” next month, which promises the opportunity for discussion with senior politicians. They include those responsible for business, tax and procurement.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... s-for-2500" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah but Cameron's sorted out lobbying, right?

[Tonibel]

Media distorts something > goads others to reply to misrepresentation > leads to further headline > media rubs its hands and thinks its doing its job by reporting it.

Yes I agree with all of that, but he was very unwise to say it for exactly those reasons. Which was my original head in hands moments.

He is going to have to stop proposing interesting ideas, because the media will jump on everything.

I don't quite know how to react to this statement. Or is it me?

I'm sure I'm not the only one who likes him because he doesn't filter everything through a focus group before he says it. Sod the media.