Bank Holiday Edition - Saturday 29th - Monday 31st August

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 1:31 pm

yahyah wrote:& someone on Twitter has posted Paddy Ashdown in 2011 when Bin Laden was killed :

I seem to remember struggling to my feet to applaud him for saying that (even though I was watching QT alone in my flat) – and much, if not most, of the audience applauding him for it, too.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 1:46 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:On the schools front, this caught my eye - particularly given the last Ofsted inspection.

Voyager Academy: Peterborough MP blasts 'catastrophic GCSEs' at school

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ca ... e-34075769

A school in Peterborough that had "catastrophically bad" GCSE results should have its academy sponsor removed, the city's MP has said.

Only 19% of pupils at The Voyager Academy in Walton achieved five A*-C grades including Maths and English, against a national average of 55%.

MP Stewart Jackson said he will write to the secretary of state asking that Comberton Academy Trust is replaced.
Trust chief executive Stephen Munday said the results were "disappointing".
Disappointing?

The last Ofsted s.8 [it was already Inadequate and in special measures] report published in June said this:

The academy’s latest data suggests the percentage of Year 11 students likely to attain five or more GCSE C grades including English and mathematics will rise to 42% this year.
That is one hell of a difference - anyone who thinks that a margin of error that wide is just "disappointing" is clearly out of his depth.

It's called trying to cover your ass.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 1:46 pm

Think it will prove to be something Farron will regret.

Even Lib Dem cult handmaiden Caron Lindsay says 'I wouldn't say tragedy, but I'd have preferred Bin Laden to have faced criminal proceedings. In that respect JC has a point.'

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 1:49 pm

Here is a video of the actual Corbyn remarks on the killing of OBL, 4 minutes long. [youtube]bmAsxF-nHVI[/youtube]

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 2:18 pm

yahyah wrote:Think it will prove to be something Farron will regret.

Even Lib Dem cult handmaiden Caron Lindsay says 'I wouldn't say tragedy, but I'd have preferred Bin Laden to have faced criminal proceedings. In that respect JC has a point.'

Thought what the US did was wrong then. Still of the same opinion.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 2:25 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:Here is a video of the actual Corbyn remarks on the killing of OBL, 4 minutes long. [youtube]bmAsxF-nHVI[/youtube]

Rather jumpily edited at the beginning (I assume taking out the introductions of and discussion with the other guests) but thanks.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 2:39 pm

Boris Johnson, 2001 -

Killing him would not be the best or most satisfying outcome. Bin Laden should be put on trial; not in Britain, but in the place where he organised the biggest and most terrible of his massacres, New York.
He should be put on trial, because a trial would be the profoundest and most eloquent statement of the difference between our values and his. He wanted to kill as many innocent people as he could. We want justice. It was a trial that concluded the tragic cycle of the Oresteia, and asserted the triumph of reason over madness and revenge.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/pers ... first.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot00719.jpg (122.16 KiB) Viewed 5686 times

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 3:03 pm

ben dean
‏@bendean1979 Amazing @DHgovuk refuses to release information re meetings between @Jeremy_Hunt and newspaper editorial teams...

https://twitter.com/bendean1979" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 3:07 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:Boris Johnson, 2001 -
Killing him would not be the best or most satisfying outcome. Bin Laden should be put on trial; not in Britain, but in the place where he organised the biggest and most terrible of his massacres, New York.
He should be put on trial, because a trial would be the profoundest and most eloquent statement of the difference between our values and his. He wanted to kill as many innocent people as he could. We want justice. It was a trial that concluded the tragic cycle of the Oresteia, and asserted the triumph of reason over madness and revenge.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/pers ... first.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ScreenShot00719.jpg

Perfectly legitimate position to take.

In the same way that bracketing the 9/11 terrorist attacks, the invasion of Afghanistan and Osama bin Laden's killing together as tragedies is not legitimate.

(He was also speaking on Press TV: the mouthpiece for the Iranian government. You know, the one that kills you for being gay.)

Of course, this might be a slip of the tongue. Were it not for the fact that Corbyn does this over and over again.

So, we have him equating IS with the US military on Russia Today (Putin's mouthpiece)

http://www.channel4.com/news/jeremy-cor ... s-military" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or the Russian invasion of Ukraine (at best) equated with Nato expansion eastwards

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-97 ... eRdG_lVikr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kosovo, Falklands, IRA, Nato, On and on it goes.

These are the attitudes of an anti-western far left Bennite. Which is fine, they should be represented in Parliament. No doubt lots of other people have similar views. We just shouldn't elect as leader of the Labour party someone with these attitudes.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 3:10 pm

The objection isn't to saying Bin Laden should stand trial- it's to calling his killing a "tragedy", on Press TV.

Corbyn is a tin eared incompetent. Any politician would get in trouble for this.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 3:12 pm

I've hesitated before posting this. But hey ho ... here we go ... because it pretty much sums up my exasperation with it all.

: Selective Quotes Tutorial.jpg (57.41 KiB) Viewed 5666 times

Chris Williamson ‏@ChriswMP 32m32 minutes ago
Here's a guide to the absurd and idiotic selective quotes about @Corbyn4Leader that some people actually believe!

and so does this ...

Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt 5h5 hours ago
This is basically the next few years isn't it? Corbyn saying something reasonable in an imprecise way. Everyone acting like he's Hitler.

and, yes, I recognise that other candidates have also had their words selectively cropped and / or bent to suit a particular interpretation. But this is becoming something else ...

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 3:12 pm

Marklu on the DT has been looking at Mossbourne's admissions.

Who do you think would most benefit from being at such a wonderful school? Kids from the very poor local area, with low levels of attainment in primary?

They have 10 places reserved for them.
Local kids already high achieving have 25.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 3:22 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:I've hesitated before posting this. But hey ho ... here we go ... because it pretty much sums up my exasperation with it all.
Selective Quotes Tutorial.jpg

Chris Williamson ‏@ChriswMP 32m32 minutes ago
Here's a guide to the absurd and idiotic selective quotes about @Corbyn4Leader that some people actually believe!
and so does this ...
Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt 5h5 hours ago
This is basically the next few years isn't it? Corbyn saying something reasonable in an imprecise way. Everyone acting like he's Hitler.
and, yes, I recognise that other candidates have also had their words selectively cropped and / or bent to suit a particular interpretation. But this is becoming something else ...

Save that those are not the quotes that are offensive. So the correct one on Press TV about Osama bin Laden is

“This was an assassination attempt, and is yet another tragedy, upon a tragedy, upon a tragedy. The World Trade Center was a tragedy, the attack on Afghanistan was a tragedy, the war in Iraq was a tragedy."

What is so offensive about this, and it is a typical Corbyn rhetroical tactic, is to equate one grotesque wrong, the murder of thousands, with a wrong committed by the west, here the killing of bin Laden without putting him on trial. And where does he do this? On Press TV!

And this is the man we are about to make leader of the opposition.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 3:22 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:I've hesitated before posting this. But hey ho ... here we go ... because it pretty much sums up my exasperation with it all.
Selective Quotes Tutorial.jpg

Chris Williamson ‏@ChriswMP 32m32 minutes ago
Here's a guide to the absurd and idiotic selective quotes about @Corbyn4Leader that some people actually believe!
and so does this ...
Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt 5h5 hours ago
This is basically the next few years isn't it? Corbyn saying something reasonable in an imprecise way. Everyone acting like he's Hitler.
and, yes, I recognise that other candidates have also had their words selectively cropped and / or bent to suit a particular interpretation. But this is becoming something else ...

Since she was appointed Rachel Reeves has had every sentence she has spoken cropped and twisted and the meaning of her words mangled. Ed Milliband spoke very precisely to avoid his words being twisted, yet still (in some cases) they managed a turn or two (we will freeze energy prices for two years ~~whilst we reorganise the energy market~~ )
Why would JC's treatment by any different? Especially when he provides open goals.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 3:23 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:I could point out that I thought we'd given up all that silly target culture that Labour had....

Indeed.

This though is a serious important target- apprenticeships are being lined up to get round the relatively high minimum wage.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 3:25 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:I've hesitated before posting this. But hey ho ... here we go ... because it pretty much sums up my exasperation with it all.
Selective Quotes Tutorial.jpg

Chris Williamson ‏@ChriswMP 32m32 minutes ago
Here's a guide to the absurd and idiotic selective quotes about @Corbyn4Leader that some people actually believe!
and so does this ...
Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt 5h5 hours ago
This is basically the next few years isn't it? Corbyn saying something reasonable in an imprecise way. Everyone acting like he's Hitler.
and, yes, I recognise that other candidates have also had their words selectively cropped and / or bent to suit a particular interpretation. But this is becoming something else ...

Yes except using the word tragedy in respect to Bin Laden was what he actually said - and it is stupid. If he had said it was unfortunate Bin Laden had been killed it would have been fine.

His track record of appearing on dubious pressaganda channels and saying slightly anti western things that their owners want to hear is also unfortunate.

None of this really matters if you are an obscure back bench MP ( which is why Peter Bone gets away with the right wing equivalent) but is utterly toxic if you aspire to be PM.

Yes it is a distraction from the really big issues, but much like CND was for Kinnock, people won't see past it.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 3:45 pm

I can't fathom the Falkland Islands comments at all. A negotiated settlement that takes account of the islanders views? What on earth would that look like? If it takes account of their views at all, there won't be any negotiations.

I was sympathetic to the cede and leaseback arrangement as proposed by the Thatcher Government before the invasion, but the time's surely past for that. The Falklands is a touchstone issue in Argentina for the sort of nasty nationalists that Corbyn should despise.

He seems to talk in terms of geopolitical broadbrush. Going to be an economic blockade of the island, apparently. Argentina can't really afford to take on Britain and (probably) America.

As he does with Ulster Unionists, he basically wants Falkland Islanders to shut up or disappear.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 3:46 pm

Excuse musings.
Hadn't realise how much we crammed in , around the World,the three main Disney's ,Ayers Rock,The Great Wall,Niagara and Victoria Falls,cruises,safaris.Half our time together she couldn't walk and I don't drive but we still travelled,Dublin in particular she enjoyed.I hope she saw all she wanted to see,she never said otherwise.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 3:54 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:I've hesitated before posting this. But hey ho ... here we go ... because it pretty much sums up my exasperation with it all.
Selective Quotes Tutorial.jpg

Chris Williamson ‏@ChriswMP 32m32 minutes ago
Here's a guide to the absurd and idiotic selective quotes about @Corbyn4Leader that some people actually believe!
and so does this ...
Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt 5h5 hours ago
This is basically the next few years isn't it? Corbyn saying something reasonable in an imprecise way. Everyone acting like he's Hitler.
and, yes, I recognise that other candidates have also had their words selectively cropped and / or bent to suit a particular interpretation. But this is becoming something else ...
Since she was appointed Rachel Reeves has had every sentence she has spoken cropped and twisted and the meaning of her words mangled. Ed Milliband spoke very precisely to avoid his words being twisted, yet still (in some cases) they managed a turn or two (we will freeze energy prices for two years ~~whilst we reorganise the energy market~~ )
Why would JC's treatment by any different? Especially when he provides open goals.

Yep.

I would think there's a fair bit of overlap between people defending Corbyn now and people who said Reeves promised to be "tougher than IDS" and that she didn't want to help anybody on benefits.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 4:02 pm

@SpinningHugo

Now, now, SH, do you really want to do the Tories' work for them with this continuous derision of who may become the Labour party leader. It was only a few days ago that I think I remarked that I would hate to be a politician where every utterance was disassembled. Of course I speak of those with opposing views that are out to damage me (should I be that pol). Granted a seasoned campaigner like Jeremy should perhaps be careful with his words, nevertheless he is in the almost impossible position of saying what he believes only to have others misrepresent them rather than the commonplace and worthless platitudes that are standard fare.

The first clip you link cuts off what he says rather abruptly when it seems he added more, possibly further explanation. Who can tell? 'And quite frankly I'm not at all sure what to make of the article. If you were not a self-professed Labourite I would have to ask what is your agenda otherwise I'd expect you to state quite categorically that you are no longer a Labourite should Corbyn win. Perhaps you have already and I missed it.

As for Bin Laden it was a tragedy for his family if no-one else, gunned down in front of them by combat troops breaking down their doors. Because I say this does not mean I have any particular sympathy for them, just desserts possibly. Nevertheless unless you class this as legitimate warfare, which it was not, it was a crime, assuming that things did indeed transpire as portrayed. But let's not go down that route, I am no conspiracy theorist even if the 'facts' do seem blurred and uncorroborated. As for enemy of America, you're not going to tell me that they're paragons of virtue, because if you are I shall laugh in your face.

Which brings me on to what I was going to say before I'd read your post. I know there are many here that hold a very dim view of Paddy, whereas I used to admire him. Note the past tense however. I think it were ohso who said Cameron was a wuss and now it seems Tim Farron is one too. It takes courage to stand up for one's principles and this is not it. He actually strikes me a good little boy who attends church meetings and probably met his girlfriend there.Unkind maybe and most likely totally untrue but you get my drift.

I was going to go into a couple of tales following on from Cameron the wuss, real events with people that I could see as Cameron; this is the guy that trashed restaurants but was nowhere to be seen whenever the police arrived and I'm damn sure he was no sprinter in his Fat Dave days so must have made an early getaway. But no you don't want any of that, so just to lighten the mood I shall leave with with a comment I addressed to Paddy Ashdown under a column he wrote for the G.

Come on Paddy, as an ex-LibDemmer there was a time I respected you. Now you know as well as I that the US and UK forces and their respective intelligence services piss in the same pot. Since when did this entail holding eachothers' dicks?

'And for the record they don't always agree.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 4:06 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:I've hesitated before posting this. But hey ho ... here we go ... because it pretty much sums up my exasperation with it all.
Selective Quotes Tutorial.jpg

Chris Williamson ‏@ChriswMP 32m32 minutes ago
Here's a guide to the absurd and idiotic selective quotes about @Corbyn4Leader that some people actually believe!
and so does this ...
Ian Dunt ‏@IanDunt 5h5 hours ago
This is basically the next few years isn't it? Corbyn saying something reasonable in an imprecise way. Everyone acting like he's Hitler.
and, yes, I recognise that other candidates have also had their words selectively cropped and / or bent to suit a particular interpretation. But this is becoming something else ...
Yes except using the word tragedy in respect to Bin Laden was what he actually said - and it is stupid. If he had said it was unfortunate Bin Laden had been killed it would have been fine.

His track record of appearing on dubious pressaganda channels and saying slightly anti western things that their owners want to hear is also unfortunate.

None of this really matters if you are an obscure back bench MP ( which is why Peter Bone gets away with the right wing equivalent) but is utterly toxic if you aspire to be PM.

Yes it is a distraction from the really big issues, but much like CND was for Kinnock, people won't see past it.

But it was tragic. At least that's how I saw it, because it was the US at her bullying worst. And she gets away with stuff like that time after time.

It's more than tragic. It's bloody disgraceful. Ignoring the rule of law demeans those who died then and are dying now.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 4:26 pm

And.

Someone had to have a slap after the Twin Towers. Some one had to suffer. Understandable, but extremely - and I'll use your expression here TE - stupid when you consider the turmoil we have now. Actions taken in the heat of the moment often come back and bite you.

There was a lot of lying and double dealing in order to get Iraq underway.

I remember a day or so after the Towers, an expert on the Middle East gave an interview on American TV. He said the terrorists were centred in Pakistan, but of course they couldn't invade there could they? Iraq was tailor made. In the meantime Afghanistan needed a lesson. America could prove their superiority over Russia. They'd make the country knuckle under.
And last but not least. Cheney's companies needed to make a lot of money. There was far more to be made in Iraq.

I had a dreadful argument with Mr Ohso at the time. I thought going into Iraq was a dreadful decision: a mistake. He was incandescent and didn't care about the ramifications. It was just 'make the bastards pay'.

He's of a different opinion now.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 4:30 pm

Evening all

I find it a tragedy that lots of people were killed in the WTC and it was, in part, due to one of our assets going 'rogue'.

I find it a tragedy that loads of people are killed in Gaza and one of our 'allies' in the Middle East developed nuclear weapons with no criticism from us.

I find it a tragedy that we and our allies use indiscriminate killing in order to try to assassinate our enemies.

I find it a tragedy that our arms kill thousands of people a year being sold to some of the most autocratic regimes in the world

I find it a tragedy that refugees are coming from North Africa and, if the survive, meeting hatred even though our policies have helped create the situation they find themselves in.

I find it a tragedy that the Labour Party can not oppose the Tory Party effectively in their attack on the poor in our society - partly because people in the leadership actually agree with some of the principles behind what they do

I find it a tragedy that the labour Party's only person who has shown verve and energy and tries to understand what has gone wrong is a 30 year old veteran who has sniped from the sidelines for years

I find it a tragedy that the Labour Party is prepared to give up the values it was built on in order to chase the votes of some ignorant and ill-informed idiots living in bloody Nuneaton (one of the few places that makes Wolverhampton look good!)

I find it a tragedy that a good leader was undermined by those on the right of the party, including some of those now crying that the result of the leadership contest is not going their way

I find it unfortunate for some of the things that Jeremy Corbyn has said can so easily be taken out of context and portray him as believing something we all know he doesn't. He is not the most desirable candidate that Labour could have for the next leader but it is not his fault that the heart of the party was hollowed out by the right wing and their verve for triangulation.

It seems we now have to laud Osborne for his 'political cleverness' over Trident when he is in fact being, as he always is, a twat...unfortunately most of our media and some on here seem to think that the political game is all that matters, even when it is not particularly well-played. Shame it is why the public holds the political classes in utter contempt

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 4:35 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Evening all

I find it a tragedy that lots of people were killed in the WTC and it was, in part, due to one of our assets going 'rogue'.

I find it a tragedy that loads of people are killed in Gaza and one of our 'allies' in the Middle East developed nuclear weapons with no criticism from us.

I find it a tragedy that we and our allies use indiscriminate killing in order to try to assassinate our enemies.

I find it a tragedy that our arms kill thousands of people a year being sold to some of the most autocratic regimes in the world

I find it a tragedy that refugees are coming from North Africa and, if the survive, meeting hatred even though our policies have helped create the situation they find themselves in.

I find it a tragedy that the Labour Party can not oppose the Tory Party effectively in their attack on the poor in our society - partly because people in the leadership actually agree with some of the principles behind what they do

I find it a tragedy that the labour Party's only person who has shown verve and energy and tries to understand what has gone wrong is a 30 year old veteran who has sniped from the sidelines for years

I find it a tragedy that the Labour Party is prepared to give up the values it was built on in order to chase the votes of some ignorant and ill-informed idiots living in bloody Nuneaton (one of the few places that makes Wolverhampton look good!)

I find it a tragedy that a good leader was undermined by those on the right of the party, including some of those now crying that the result of the leadership contest is not going their way

I find it unfortunate for some of the things that Jeremy Corbyn has said can so easily be taken out of context and portray him as believing something we all know he doesn't. He is not the most desirable candidate that Labour could have for the next leader but it is not his fault that the heart of the party was hollowed out by the right wing and their verve for triangulation.

It seems we now have to laud Osborne for his 'political cleverness' over Trident when he is in fact being, as he always is, a twat...unfortunately most of our media and some on here seem to think that the political game is all that matters, even when it is not particularly well-played. Shame it is why the public holds the political classes in utter contempt

Oh well said....Too bloody right.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 4:50 pm

HindleA wrote:Excuse musings.
Hadn't realise how much we crammed in , around the World,the three main Disney's ,Ayers Rock,The Great Wall,Niagara and Victoria Falls,cruises,safaris.Half our time together she couldn't walk and I don't drive but we still travelled,Dublin in particular she enjoyed.I hope she saw all she wanted to see,she never said otherwise.

It's funny how we can't see for a little while, or need a bit of time or distance to recall, just how rich shared experiences are.

Before your world became (of necessity) quite contained (on a purely practical level), it was vast - and you saw much of it together.

If "she never said otherwise" and you trust her judgement, then she did.
Best of all, she saw what she saw with you, the man she loved.

Maybe when things get rough you could imagine a walkabout around Uluru, the light changing its' colours.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 4:54 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Evening all

I find it a tragedy that lots of people were killed in the WTC and it was, in part, due to one of our assets going 'rogue'.

I find it a tragedy that loads of people are killed in Gaza and one of our 'allies' in the Middle East developed nuclear weapons with no criticism from us.

I find it a tragedy that we and our allies use indiscriminate killing in order to try to assassinate our enemies.

I find it a tragedy that our arms kill thousands of people a year being sold to some of the most autocratic regimes in the world

I find it a tragedy that refugees are coming from North Africa and, if the survive, meeting hatred even though our policies have helped create the situation they find themselves in.

I find it a tragedy that the Labour Party can not oppose the Tory Party effectively in their attack on the poor in our society - partly because people in the leadership actually agree with some of the principles behind what they do

I find it a tragedy that the labour Party's only person who has shown verve and energy and tries to understand what has gone wrong is a 30 year old veteran who has sniped from the sidelines for years

I find it a tragedy that the Labour Party is prepared to give up the values it was built on in order to chase the votes of some ignorant and ill-informed idiots living in bloody Nuneaton (one of the few places that makes Wolverhampton look good!)

I find it a tragedy that a good leader was undermined by those on the right of the party, including some of those now crying that the result of the leadership contest is not going their way

I find it unfortunate for some of the things that Jeremy Corbyn has said can so easily be taken out of context and portray him as believing something we all know he doesn't. He is not the most desirable candidate that Labour could have for the next leader but it is not his fault that the heart of the party was hollowed out by the right wing and their verve for triangulation.

It seems we now have to laud Osborne for his 'political cleverness' over Trident when he is in fact being, as he always is, a twat...unfortunately most of our media and some on here seem to think that the political game is all that matters, even when it is not particularly well-played. Shame it is why the public holds the political classes in utter contempt

Bravo. Fucking bravo.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 5:08 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
Save that those are not the quotes that are offensive. So the correct one on Press TV about Osama bin Laden is

“This was an assassination attempt, and is yet another tragedy, upon a tragedy, upon a tragedy. The World Trade Center was a tragedy, the attack on Afghanistan was a tragedy, the war in Iraq was a tragedy."

What is so offensive about this, and it is a typical Corbyn rhetroical tactic, is to equate one grotesque wrong, the murder of thousands, with a wrong committed by the west, here the killing of bin Laden without putting him on trial. And where does he do this? On Press TV!

And this is the man we are about to make leader of the opposition.

Been out for a bit or I would have responded sooner.

I don't find what he said offensive. Those events were / are tragic. Your interpretation of it isn't mine.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 5:15 pm

I really am incorrigible not only do I tell a good tale, matter of opinion granted (I blame rr2 for encouraging me when I should have stopped) but have also recounted the odd dream in the G before now most notably perhaps what I call Stag Hunt or even Royal Breakfast, both of which woke me with a smile, albeit the former more troubling. Well today I had yet another dream, but please bear with me unless this really is too painful to bear.

A couple of days ago I remarked that my late wife still inhabits my dreams from time to time and last night was a case in point. I shall gloss over the detail but first state that when I do dream of her they're sleeping memories rather than dreams and nearly always of the good times. Although last night's was about the day I found out her father had tried to rape her that very morning and had indeed done so before the thrust was not about such horrors but more the guy rushing to her rescue. Having progressed from our meeting and on to accompanying her to her parents to gather her stuff and come stay with me, somehow or other it advanced to a small meeting with my wife sat on a chair to my right and me addressing a small audience on parental abuse, something we'd both suffered.

'And surprisingly eloquent I was too, especially on such a delicate topic. So clear were the words in fact that they seemed rehearsed as they would for a speech. Slowly but surely I began to surface and after about thirty seconds of gentle arousal (behave at the back) I suddenly realised that flat on my back I was not only speaking aloud but exceptionally clearly.

Sorry. May I just say that I burst out laughing?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 5:17 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
Save that those are not the quotes that are offensive. So the correct one on Press TV about Osama bin Laden is

“This was an assassination attempt, and is yet another tragedy, upon a tragedy, upon a tragedy. The World Trade Center was a tragedy, the attack on Afghanistan was a tragedy, the war in Iraq was a tragedy."

What is so offensive about this, and it is a typical Corbyn rhetroical tactic, is to equate one grotesque wrong, the murder of thousands, with a wrong committed by the west, here the killing of bin Laden without putting him on trial. And where does he do this? On Press TV!

And this is the man we are about to make leader of the opposition.
Been out for a bit or I would have responded sooner.

I don't find what he said offensive. Those events were / are tragic. Your interpretation of it isn't mine.

It's the way he brackets killing the instigator of 9/11 with 9/11 itself, and where he says it.

Hugo is right about what underlies Corbyn's positions- for want of a better word, anti-Westernism. At the moment Corbyn's got some cross party appeal as an opponent of invading Iraq and Trident, and quite rightly. But I don't see the cross party appeal lasting when Cameron and Corbyn's Labour opponents have filled in the background of his anti-Westernism.

Again, I think the SNP have got this right. Salmond reversed the longstanding opposition to NATO membership. The SNP are currently reaping the benefit of being associated with two popular policy positions- anti-war and anti-nukes- without being exposed to accusations they're not part of the mainstream international NATO politics.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 5:27 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:
Save that those are not the quotes that are offensive. So the correct one on Press TV about Osama bin Laden is

“This was an assassination attempt, and is yet another tragedy, upon a tragedy, upon a tragedy. The World Trade Center was a tragedy, the attack on Afghanistan was a tragedy, the war in Iraq was a tragedy."

What is so offensive about this, and it is a typical Corbyn rhetroical tactic, is to equate one grotesque wrong, the murder of thousands, with a wrong committed by the west, here the killing of bin Laden without putting him on trial. And where does he do this? On Press TV!

And this is the man we are about to make leader of the opposition.
Been out for a bit or I would have responded sooner.

I don't find what he said offensive. Those events were / are tragic. Your interpretation of it isn't mine.
It's the way he brackets killing the instigator of 9/11 with 9/11 itself, and where he says it.

Hugo is right about what underlies Corbyn's positions- for want of a better word, anti-Westernism. At the moment Corbyn's got some cross party appeal as an opponent of invading Iraq and Trident, and quite rightly. But I don't see the cross party appeal lasting when Cameron and Corbyn's Labour opponents have filled in the background of his anti-Westernism.

Again, I think the SNP have got this right. Salmond reversed the longstanding opposition to NATO membership. The SNP are currently reaping the benefit of being associated with two popular policy positions- anti-war and anti-nukes- without being exposed to accusations they're not part of the mainstream international NATO politics.

You have made your own interpretation which, one can say, is not unbiased seeing your view in general on Corbyn.

I, personally, am not in favour of leaving NATO but it definitely needs reform, just like the EU.

I understand some of his anti-westernism. I am fed up of the hypocrisy coming from the West!

It is Western financial institutions that are destroying the world economy, it is Western intervention that has helped create some of the world's security issues and it is the western hypocrisy that prevents us setting a moral high ground

China is an autocratic and vicious state but the west seems happy to throw lots of jobs over there because they are 'cheaper' - of course they are 'cheaper' - their standards are lower, their human rights non existence and their command economy makes intervention in decisions impossible

Are we moving towards a more pluralistic democracy in the west or trying to move to a more feudal and autocratic future as China?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 5:30 pm

I find it a tragedy that the Labour Party is prepared to give up the values it was built on in order to chase the votes of some ignorant and ill-informed idiots living in bloody Nuneaton (one of the few places that makes Wolverhampton look good!)

That is the problem with western democracy it all comes down to pesky voters (just ask TUSC about their problems with them).

However Nuneaton is a fine town, a little down at the heels in places, and the centre is perhaps a little threadbare. The people who live there are struggling to get by and it is the sort of seat Labour should be winning, and if they aren't winning there they are going to be royally screwed trying to win other places like say Leamington\Warwick.

So rather than sneering at them, perhaps Labour should elect a leader and adopt a set of policies that might win them over. Perhaps if Labour used triangulation to identify a winning constituency for centre left politics that could get them at least close to a majority then they might be able to change the country for the better.

Because the problem is Nuneaton isn't going anywhere. In 2020 those annoying voters will put their crosses on the ballot paper and unless Labour wins we will have another Conservative government. Now I don't know how to win in Nuneaton, but I rather think it would be a rather good idea to work it out.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 5:41 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
I find it a tragedy that the Labour Party is prepared to give up the values it was built on in order to chase the votes of some ignorant and ill-informed idiots living in bloody Nuneaton (one of the few places that makes Wolverhampton look good!)
That is the problem with western democracy it all comes down to pesky voters (just ask TUSC about their problems with them).

However Nuneaton is a fine town, a little down at the heels in places, and the centre is perhaps a little threadbare. The people who live there are struggling to get by and it is the sort of seat Labour should be winning, and if they aren't winning there they are going to be royally screwed trying to win other places like say Leamington\Warwick.

So rather than sneering at them, perhaps Labour should elect a leader and adopt a set of policies that might win them over. Perhaps if Labour used triangulation to identify a winning constituency for centre left politics that could get them at least close to a majority then they might be able to change the country for the better.

Because the problem is Nuneaton isn't going anywhere. In 2020 those annoying voters will put their crosses on the ballot paper and unless Labour wins we will have another Conservative government. Now I don't know how to win in Nuneaton, but I rather think it would be a rather good idea to work it out.

My town voted Labour based on a good set of policies put forward by a good leader.

Why must my town be dictated to by the bunch of ignorant people who have been shown on Vox Pop who withered on about welfare 'scroungers', the SNP and 'maxing out the credit card'?

I hold these voters in contempt for their ignorance...they had no coherent reason for voting Tory, even though they and their town will lose out!

If the want to continue voting Tory based on the policies put forward by Cameron and Osborne then let 'em.

They voted Tory without Corbyn being involved at all.

I cannot see any of the other 3 leaders having any positive impact at all on the 2020 results

Liz Kendall - she was the one who dug her own grave on 'austerity'
Yvette Cooper - who was it whose husband 'wrecked the economy' and who introduced the Workplace assessment?
Andy Burnham - Mid Staffs

They are not totally fair attacks but can you see them winning?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 5:42 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: Been out for a bit or I would have responded sooner.

I don't find what he said offensive. Those events were / are tragic. Your interpretation of it isn't mine.
It's the way he brackets killing the instigator of 9/11 with 9/11 itself, and where he says it.

Hugo is right about what underlies Corbyn's positions- for want of a better word, anti-Westernism. At the moment Corbyn's got some cross party appeal as an opponent of invading Iraq and Trident, and quite rightly. But I don't see the cross party appeal lasting when Cameron and Corbyn's Labour opponents have filled in the background of his anti-Westernism.

Again, I think the SNP have got this right. Salmond reversed the longstanding opposition to NATO membership. The SNP are currently reaping the benefit of being associated with two popular policy positions- anti-war and anti-nukes- without being exposed to accusations they're not part of the mainstream international NATO politics.

You have made your own interpretation which, one can say, is not unbiased seeing your view in general on Corbyn.

I, personally, am not in favour of leaving NATO but it definitely needs reform, just like the EU.

I understand some of his anti-westernism. I am fed up of the hypocrisy coming from the West!

It is Western financial institutions that are destroying the world economy, it is Western intervention that has helped create some of the world's security issues and it is the western hypocrisy that prevents us setting a moral high ground

China is an autocratic and vicious state but the west seems happy to throw lots of jobs over there because they are 'cheaper' - of course they are 'cheaper' - their standards are lower, their human rights non existence and their command economy makes intervention in decisions impossible

Are we moving towards a more pluralistic democracy in the west or trying to move to a more feudal and autocratic future as China?

It's not just criticism of the West though. As Hugo says, it's the concessions to its opponents that are worse. Putin, Argentinian nationalists, the IRA circa 84.

I'm anti-nukes, unlike lots of Corbyn's opponents. I don't have particularly strong views on Britain being in NATO (Ireland isn't, and that has very strong public support), but I draw the line at Corbyn saying Poland etc shouldn't have been allowed to join it.

What you say about reforming the EU and NATO is good sense. Corbyn's instincts look more like leaving them both.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 5:53 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: It's the way he brackets killing the instigator of 9/11 with 9/11 itself, and where he says it.

Hugo is right about what underlies Corbyn's positions- for want of a better word, anti-Westernism. At the moment Corbyn's got some cross party appeal as an opponent of invading Iraq and Trident, and quite rightly. But I don't see the cross party appeal lasting when Cameron and Corbyn's Labour opponents have filled in the background of his anti-Westernism.

Again, I think the SNP have got this right. Salmond reversed the longstanding opposition to NATO membership. The SNP are currently reaping the benefit of being associated with two popular policy positions- anti-war and anti-nukes- without being exposed to accusations they're not part of the mainstream international NATO politics.

You have made your own interpretation which, one can say, is not unbiased seeing your view in general on Corbyn.

I, personally, am not in favour of leaving NATO but it definitely needs reform, just like the EU.

I understand some of his anti-westernism. I am fed up of the hypocrisy coming from the West!

It is Western financial institutions that are destroying the world economy, it is Western intervention that has helped create some of the world's security issues and it is the western hypocrisy that prevents us setting a moral high ground

China is an autocratic and vicious state but the west seems happy to throw lots of jobs over there because they are 'cheaper' - of course they are 'cheaper' - their standards are lower, their human rights non existence and their command economy makes intervention in decisions impossible

Are we moving towards a more pluralistic democracy in the west or trying to move to a more feudal and autocratic future as China?
It's not just criticism of the West though. As Hugo says, it's the concessions to its opponents that are worse. Putin, Argentinian nationalists, the IRA circa 84.

I'm anti-nukes, unlike lots of Corbyn's opponents. I don't have particularly strong views on Britain being in NATO (Ireland isn't, and that has very strong public support), but I draw the line at Corbyn saying Poland etc shouldn't have been allowed to join it.

What you say about reforming the EU and NATO is good sense. Corbyn's instincts look more like leaving them both.

No time for Putin but do you think the way he has been handled up to now has worked? Did NATO think about how the expansion would play in the realpolitik world we live in? Has NATO expansion made conflict more or less likely?

Do we really stand up to him or just mouth things.....

Argentinian nationalism is taking a bit far - we are only too happy to turn up the jingoism as well

I am anti-Imperialist and we should start looking at these old outposts of Empire as to what place they have - I would start with the Cayman's though. Not necessarily in favour of giving back the Falklands but they are on the other side of the world so is it practical to keep them seeing we are under budget pressure? Of course, oil has nothing to do with it.......

IRA c1984 were a complex beast....I personally think talking to Sinn Fein was no worse than talking to Ulster Vanguard and the loyalist provocateurs. It seems from info now in the public domain that UK Intelligence was actually running the IRA and directing terrorism on the Loyalist side. Of course, as normal, none of the politicians knew

Wherever we look there is hypocrisy

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 5:57 pm

ohsocynical wrote:... In the meantime Afghanistan needed a lesson. America could prove their superiority over Russia. They'd make the country knuckle under..

It goes back a lot further than that, both Britain and America have history there before Russia invaded.This is an account of America's little known interests: Remembering the Past: The Early Years of U.S.-Afghan Relations (http://www.meridian.org/insmallthingsre ... -relations).

Of course it makes no mention of the scale of corruption or of the damaging effect of Nixon's War on Drugs, a cause of some of the disagreement I alluded to earlier. Ironically heroin was not the problem it is now, cannabis being the primary cash crop. For all my moaning, how to roll back 40+ years is going to be far more problematic than the few years of Prohibition... but continues to cause immeasurable harm

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 6:00 pm

I'm sure Putin doesn't like the expansion of NATO to his borders, and it would be awful if there was a new Cold War. But the Baltics etc don't care- they'll have a Cold War if they're on the right side of the Iron Curtain this time. I don't think Corbyn can sit there and tell them they shouldn't be able to join NATO, in the light of their recent experience.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 6:15 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'm sure Putin doesn't like the expansion of NATO to his borders, and it would be awful if there was a new Cold War. But the Baltics etc don't care- they'll have a Cold War if they're on the right side of the Iron Curtain this time. I don't think Corbyn can sit there and tell them they shouldn't be able to join NATO, in the light of their recent experience.

Of course the Baltics have the right to join NATO - very country has the right to self-determination.....unless we don't agree with their choice that is!

What is not so much the 'What' but the 'How' - similar to Ukraine. Making a big song and dance about it when we know it is poking the Bear with a stick. Hubris that has now led to some problems....our Hubris

We know what Putin's game is and we should have been more sensible in our approach. Whatever happened to diplomacy?

The current SG of NATO makes me shudder every time he appears

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 6:16 pm

My area voted strongly Labour too. Majority of 24,000.

Fantastic!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 6:19 pm

NATO? Iraq? Titless Waafs as my dad used to say.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 6:20 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'm sure Putin doesn't like the expansion of NATO to his borders, and it would be awful if there was a new Cold War. But the Baltics etc don't care- they'll have a Cold War if they're on the right side of the Iron Curtain this time. I don't think Corbyn can sit there and tell them they shouldn't be able to join NATO, in the light of their recent experience.

Of course the Baltics have the right to join NATO - very country has the right to self-determination.....unless we don't agree with their choice that is!

What is not so much the 'What' but the 'How' - similar to Ukraine. Making a big song and dance about it when we know it is poking the Bear with a stick. Hubris that has now led to some problems....our Hubris

We know what Putin's game is and we should have been more sensible in our approach. Whatever happened to diplomacy?

The current SG of NATO makes me shudder every time he appears

Yeah, the diplomacy does seem poor at times, though Putin invading part of Ukraine means it's going to be quite hardline at the moment.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 6:22 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I'm sure Putin doesn't like the expansion of NATO to his borders, and it would be awful if there was a new Cold War. But the Baltics etc don't care- they'll have a Cold War if they're on the right side of the Iron Curtain this time. I don't think Corbyn can sit there and tell them they shouldn't be able to join NATO, in the light of their recent experience.

Of course the Baltics have the right to join NATO - very country has the right to self-determination.....unless we don't agree with their choice that is!

What is not so much the 'What' but the 'How' - similar to Ukraine. Making a big song and dance about it when we know it is poking the Bear with a stick. Hubris that has now led to some problems....our Hubris

We know what Putin's game is and we should have been more sensible in our approach. Whatever happened to diplomacy?

The current SG of NATO makes me shudder every time he appears
Yeah, the diplomacy does seem poor at times, though Putin invading part of Ukraine means it's going to be quite hardline at the moment.

Chicken and egg...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 6:23 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/

The only paper to say it like it was...

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 6:26 pm

There’s only one reason for this badger cull – votes
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... dApp_Tweet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of the most honest, informed and direct pieces I've read on the badger cull.

Except I would qualify Barkham's statement about it buying rural votes and say this cull is / was a big part of the price for Countryside Alliance and Vote UK support - there are a lot of people living in rural areas who don't support it.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 6:27 pm

Some background re Robert Owen Free School on a local Hereford forum.

http://www.herefordvoice.co.uk/topic/13 ... ee-school/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sounds like an expensive Tory disaster, facilitated by Tory Herefordshire Council. Millions spent, valuable land transferred, not even half capacity, and all over the place.

If money hadn't been spent on construction, they'd probably wind it up now.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 6:28 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:My area voted strongly Labour too. Majority of 24,000.

Fantastic!

Excellent......so why do we take them for granted by focusing on those who voted Tory because they didn't bother looking at the nonsense spouted by Cameron closely enough?

Remember the left didn't come out and say we lost for not being left enough although the Scottish situation would have suggested that it was within their rights to do so

No, it was the right who were screaming about Miliband being too left wing and policies that didn't 'speak to Tory voters' - they have reaped what they sowed themselves!

If Corbyn wasn't there we would be now marching down the path to the right....for that I am grateful to him. None of the others saw this early enough and managed to present a coherent policy framework based on what Miliband started - a step to the left!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 6:49 pm

Can't help wondering whether it may have been inconvenient for western powers if Bin Laden had been tried in an open court.
Suspect there may well have been a few things the US may have wanted kept under wraps, and he may have been seen as a possible loose cannon in more than one sense of the word.

Also, maybe it's the old hippy in me, but surely the death of any human being, no matter how wicked or criminal, is a tragedy. There's also the definition of tragedy as in Shakespeare, the culmination of a person's life and decisions ending badly.

But, Corbyn is to criticised for whatever he says, so who am I to comment ?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 6:54 pm

Good point about a Bin Laden trial.

All more articulate than Corbyn.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 6:55 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Evening all

I find it a tragedy that lots of people were killed in the WTC and it was, in part, due to one of our assets going 'rogue'.

I find it a tragedy that loads of people are killed in Gaza and one of our 'allies' in the Middle East developed nuclear weapons with no criticism from us.

I find it a tragedy that we and our allies use indiscriminate killing in order to try to assassinate our enemies.

I find it a tragedy that our arms kill thousands of people a year being sold to some of the most autocratic regimes in the world

I find it a tragedy that refugees are coming from North Africa and, if the survive, meeting hatred even though our policies have helped create the situation they find themselves in.

I find it a tragedy that the Labour Party can not oppose the Tory Party effectively in their attack on the poor in our society - partly because people in the leadership actually agree with some of the principles behind what they do

I find it a tragedy that the labour Party's only person who has shown verve and energy and tries to understand what has gone wrong is a 30 year old veteran who has sniped from the sidelines for years

I find it a tragedy that the Labour Party is prepared to give up the values it was built on in order to chase the votes of some ignorant and ill-informed idiots living in bloody Nuneaton (one of the few places that makes Wolverhampton look good!)

I find it a tragedy that a good leader was undermined by those on the right of the party, including some of those now crying that the result of the leadership contest is not going their way

I find it unfortunate for some of the things that Jeremy Corbyn has said can so easily be taken out of context and portray him as believing something we all know he doesn't. He is not the most desirable candidate that Labour could have for the next leader but it is not his fault that the heart of the party was hollowed out by the right wing and their verve for triangulation.

It seems we now have to laud Osborne for his 'political cleverness' over Trident when he is in fact being, as he always is, a twat...unfortunately most of our media and some on here seem to think that the political game is all that matters, even when it is not particularly well-played. Shame it is why the public holds the political classes in utter contempt

And I find it a tragedy that Chelsea lost to Palace.

But I have enough sense not to lump together all 'bad things' into the same category for rhetorical effect, to create the spurious impression of equivalence. "Yes X killed thousands, but the west doesn't clean its teeth at night. So who are we to judge?"

Which is what Corbyn does.

Over and over again.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 7:07 pm

I don't want to spin the argument out SH (no pun intended) but I find your arguments crass and I'm going to try and explain why ... probably not very well.

I think it's because Corbyn - and others who have said similar - recognises the horror and tragedy of dreadful acts like 9/11 that he is also aware how important a figure Osama Bin Laden and the manner of his death was. It's not a simple 'equating' of events as I see it ... it's about following the due process to show people that such extreme acts are not the way ... not our way.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Mon 31 Aug, 2015 7:10 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:I don't want to spin the argument out SH (no pun intended) but I find your arguments crass and I'm going to try and explain why ... probably not very well.

I think it's because Corbyn - and others who have said similar - recognises the horror and tragedy of dreadful acts like 9/11 that he is also aware how important a figure Osama Bin Laden and the manner of his death was. It's not a simple 'equating' of events as I see it ... it's about following the due process to show people that such extreme acts are not the way ... not our way.

Yeah.

On Press TV.

Whilst simultaneously giving credence to conspiracy nut theories about how it is all very 'fishy'.

He really did not say what you want him to have said in the measured way you would have liked. That is because he was on Press TV and telling its audience what it wants to hear.