Bank Holiday Edition - Saturday 29th - Monday 31st August

[rebeccariots2]

UN investigating British Government over human rights abuses caused by IDS welfare reforms
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 78536.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The UN is to visit the UK to investigate whether Iain Duncan Smith’s welfare reforms have caused “grave or systematic violations” of disabled peoples’ human rights, it has been reported.

A leading disability charity says that they have been contacted by the UN Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities as part of an investigation into human rights abuses against disabled people in the UK.

Inclusion Scotland, a consortium of disability organisations in Scotland, says the UN committee has advised them that they will be sending a Special Rapporteur to the UK in the “near future” as part of their probe.

[utopiandreams]

@rebeccariots2

I initially thought here we go again, rr2, but note this time it is the UN approaching a charity and not the other way around. Hopefully something may finally come of it. However a former Conservative Party Chairman used party headed notepaper to deride previous UN findings, or rather the special rapporteur herself and Cameron apparently approved. He has at least given Shapps his approval since and made no public comment on the letter, very Prime Ministerial.

Postscript: let us not forget that Nadhim Zahawi also bad-mouthed Racquel Rolnik. Perhaps he let's Dave ride his horses or given what I said of Rebekah the other day, does that have unintended connotations?

[Willow904]

I'm beginning to wonder if FTN is doomed if Corbyn wins.
It will be too bitter a pill for some to swallow.

I'm more worried the other way. What if Burnham wins? It'll be 'Labour purge'! til the end of time. In fact the press have done a pretty good job of ensuring Labour is stitched up whatever the outcome. Labour is too left wing/ red Tories is the message depending on the audience. 9m voters, yet you wouldn't think anyone voted Labour if you used the press as a guide as they are clearly far too right wing establishment/left wing loonies for anyone to vote for.

[rebeccariots2]

I'm beginning to wonder if FTN is doomed if Corbyn wins.
It will be too bitter a pill for some to swallow.

People will need to manage their reactions in the best way they can yahyah - I am guessing it will be a bit like post the general election - some FTNers may disappear for a while or quit, others may reappear. Doomed seems too strong and fatalistic to me at present. Too many good people here IMO. (Apologies if that sounds smug, it's not meant to).

But at the risk of being a wishy washy middle of the roader ... we're going to have to find a way to pull together in order to fight the Tories. I don't care about the kind of left label people wear necessarily as long as we are going to work hard to find the common ground that means we can win some meaningful battles - not least in tackling some of the 'narratives' (sorry had to use it there) that have become entrenched and others that are in danger of becoming entrenched. The only way we'll get a broader church and wider section of the public on board is if there is a concerted effort across the Labour party - especially the PLP - to sort out what the real priorities are to deal with and get across to the public. Leave the back stabbing, infighting, me me me isms behind - and certainly out of the public eye.

[yahyah]

& Hugo - is it that bad that people set up a Corbyn stall near you, or are putting Corbyn posters in their windows ? It shows a willingness to try and spread the word, engage with the public - surely positives for future Labour electioneering ?

I think it is utterly disastrous for the Labour movement as it means Corbyn has won.

Do you not think it likely Labour will poll poorly with Corbyn as leader? That Labour will do poorly in the assembly and local elections next year and that a new leadership contest will almost certainly follow? That his leadership will have no lasting impact and will soon be forgotten? Nothing is so disastrous it can't be recovered from. I think you're being melodramatic. Corbyn winning may be a positive in at least thrashing out just how popular or not a proper left-winger may prove to be and then we can finally all stop arguing about it.

A proper left winger will find it very difficult to thrive if those who have fought tooth and nail to prevent him winning bitch from the sidelines all the time.

Which is what is most likely to happen if Corbyn wins, IMHO.
The media will just repeat what those who are undermining him from within the party are saying and Cameron's handed his attack material on a plate.

Can't help thinking some of those who are railing against a Corbyn win really actually don't want to envision Labour doing well under him.

[rebeccariots2]

@rebeccariots2

I initially thought here we go again, rr2, but note this time it is the UN approaching a charity and not the other way around. Hopefully something may finally come of it. However a former Conservative Party Chairman used party headed notepaper to deride previous UN findings, or rather the special rapporteur herself and Cameron apparently approved. He has at least given Shapps his approval since and made no public comment on the letter, very Prime Ministerial.

Postscript: let us not forget that Nadhim Zahawi also bad-mouthed Racquel Rolnik. Perhaps he let's Dave ride his horses or given what I said of Rebekah the other day, does that have unintended connotations?

I don't expect Cameron or IDS or any of the other instigators of these hideous 'welfare reforms' to really give a toss about the UN's opinion. But I'm hoping they will - as last time with the UN rapporteur re the bedroom tax - make such an outraged stink about the UN daring to question their policies that it will kick off again in the MSM. And a few more people might think ... it's happening again to this lot, maybe there is something about their policies that isn't actually fair, that does go too far? And those people might also be the ones who have just lost their tax credits.

[yahyah]

Sorry Willow, I am generalising - nor meaning you personally.

[yahyah]

Try a thought experiment.

Visualise four years in the future, a candidate you dislike won and has clicked with voters and Labour are doing well.

Be honest - how do you feel ?

[rebeccariots2]

Try a thought experiment.

Visualise four years in the future, a candidate you dislike won and has clicked with voters and Labour are doing well.

Be honest - how do you feel ?

If they have clicked with voters and Labour are doing well I feel pretty good. It would certainly make campaigning that much easier. (Caveat being that they aren't advocating mass privatisation of services, reneging on animal and environmental protections, more punishments for the disabled and other such policies in which case I'd be unable to support Labour whoever was leader).

[utopiandreams]

Try a thought experiment.

Visualise four years in the future, a candidate you dislike won and has clicked with voters and Labour are doing well.

Be honest - how do you feel ?

I struggle to think, yahyah, who says how Labour are doing and do I believe them? 'And on such a downer I leave you again, 3 o'clock already!

Edit: corrected I'm to I

[SpinningHugo]

& Hugo - is it that bad that people set up a Corbyn stall near you, or are putting Corbyn posters in their windows ? It shows a willingness to try and spread the word, engage with the public - surely positives for future Labour electioneering ?

I think it is utterly disastrous for the Labour movement as it means Corbyn has won.

Do you not think it likely Labour will poll poorly with Corbyn as leader? That Labour will do poorly in the assembly and local elections next year and that a new leadership contest will almost certainly follow? That his leadership will have no lasting impact and will soon be forgotten? Nothing is so disastrous it can't be recovered from. I think you're being melodramatic. Corbyn winning may be a positive in at least thrashing out just how popular or not a proper left-winger may prove to be and then we can finally all stop arguing about it.

I don't think he will last until 2020 (but the suggestion of some that he will quit is ridiculously over-optimistic.

At some point the PLP will get rid of him, but the damage will be terrible, for two reasons.

First, although some members who voted for him will accept it as the results will, after an initial bounce, be terrible, many won't. It will make the bitterness about Blairites under the bed that there currently is appear trivial.

Second, the reputational damage is very significant even if he is removed. The Tories will, from 12 September, paint Labour as th party of Jeremy Corbyn. They will do so remorselessly, Once he has gone the Tories will use him to say "Look, that is what Labour are really like. The Corbynistas could take back control at any time." Corbyn isn't for this Parliament, he is forever.

Labour's only hope of electoral recovery would be an enormous economic disaster, 2008 times five. Of course, for some, the collapse of capitalism is imminent, and so they'll judge that that won't be a problem.

[SpinningHugo]

Try a thought experiment.

Visualise four years in the future, a candidate you dislike won and has clicked with voters and Labour are doing well.

Be honest - how do you feel ?

If I had no substantive problem with them, great.

if it is someone like Corbyn, whose economic programme I think is wholly misguided, and whose foreign policy agenda I think is out of line with the tradition of the Labour movement since Bevin removed Lansbury, horrified.

[ohsocynical]

Honestly curious about this.

Why, compared with the other would be leaders, is Corbyn attracting such big crowds who seem to like his message?

People usually only listen when they like the message. Or doesn't that apply in this case?
If not why?

[Willow904]

Sorry Willow, I am generalising - nor meaning you personally.

It took me a while to figure out what I might be insulted by! But don't worry, I'm pro-Burnham, not anti-Corbyn, I won't be bitching from the sidelines! I'm the opposite of Hugo, I'd like to see the UK embrace the left and would be happy if it happened, I just don't think it will. I like some of Corbyn's policies and not others, but then I don't agree with any candidate entirely. I just like Burnham's take on health and his diplomatic style.

[ohsocynical]

Try a thought experiment.

Visualise four years in the future, a candidate you dislike won and has clicked with voters and Labour are doing well.

Be honest - how do you feel ?

If I had no substantive problem with them, great.

if it is someone like Corbyn, whose economic programme I think is wholly misguided, and whose foreign policy agenda I think is out of line with the tradition of the Labour movement since Bevin removed Lansbury, horrified.

Do you have a crystal ball?

[utopiandreams]

.. Do you have a crystal ball?

There's an answer to that, ohso.

Sorry just stopped for a drink of water. Aren't these modern fridges great? Yeah my old one gave up the ghost last year.

[rebeccariots2]

About to take the dogs for a short, much needed, walk. Much needed by Mr Riots as much as the dogs. He's been hedge cutting this afternoon. There's been expletives bursting out from behind the hedge and ricocheting around the garden like bullets as he wrestles with machinery and about 10 wasp stings. Time to call it quits before he explodes. A long rinse of his head in cold water and then we'll get out.

[ephemerid]

It interests me that quite a few of the people here who have voted for Corbyn - me included - have expressed the view that they have not done so because they believe in everything he has ever sad or done, but because they like his ideas on social and political democracy.
Some of them - again, me included - can see that he is offering hope and a change in how our politicians conduct their business.

In contrast, there appears to be a dogmatic insistence amongst a few - one in particular - who do not support Corbyn, that every single thing he says, and every single thing he has ever done in decades as a politician, is wrong and anyone who disagrees is stupid, wrong, moronic, or insane.
Unsubstantiated opinion, delivered in magisterial tones as if it were fact, remains opinion.

The difficulty I have with this is not so much that I find it personally offensive at times (I do) but that others do too. The day doesn't go by without someone passing comment on it; as with other fora where this goes on, it leads to spats and people taking sides. Some leave, whichever side they're on; that's a loss for all of us.

I do not accept that a Corbyn leadership (if he wins, which is not a certainty) spells the end of Labour or even a split for Labour - both scenarios would involve those who will not concede his victory choosing not to support the wishes of their fellow party members.
The idea that people who claim to be solid Labour supporters of many years' standing - unlike me, say - would ape the Blairite tendency and throw their toys out of the pram, indicates to me that they are willing to reject what their peers have voted for in a democratic process.
The ridiculous posturing of Danzcuk and Mann, the silliness of Umunna and his pals forming their little faction, the sheer arrogance of Cooper refusing to serve in a Corbyn-led cabinet because she doesn't like his policies whilst having lamentably few of her own, is shameful.

Nobody knows what will happen in the vote - yet. Nobody knows what a Corbyn-led Labour would look like - yet.
One thing we can be sure of is this - whoever wins, Cameron and his henchmen will find any opportunity to tear into them and rip Labour to shreds; the last thing Labour needs is its' own people doing it for him.

Meanwhile, I would appreciate it if certain quarters - regular or occasional - would desist from the patronising commentary and pejorative remarks they indulge in, and learn to couch their posts in a more amenable fashion. There are days like today when I won't post here much because of it; so I'm glad someone else has made those points today.....though judging by previous behaviour I doubt it will have the desired effect.

[AngryAsWell]

It interests me that quite a few of the people here who have voted for Corbyn - me included - have expressed the view that they have not done so because they believe in everything he has ever sad or done, but because they like his ideas on social and political democracy.
Some of them - again, me included - can see that he is offering hope and a change in how our politicians conduct their business.

In contrast, there appears to be a dogmatic insistence amongst a few - one in particular - who do not support Corbyn, that every single thing he says, and every single thing he has ever done in decades as a politician, is wrong and anyone who disagrees is stupid, wrong, moronic, or insane.
Unsubstantiated opinion, delivered in magisterial tones as if it were fact, remains opinion.

The difficulty I have with this is not so much that I find it personally offensive at times (I do) but that others do too. The day doesn't go by without someone passing comment on it; as with other fora where this goes on, it leads to spats and people taking sides. Some leave, whichever side they're on; that's a loss for all of us.

I do not accept that a Corbyn leadership (if he wins, which is not a certainty) spells the end of Labour or even a split for Labour - both scenarios would involve those who will not concede his victory choosing not to support the wishes of their fellow party members.
The idea that people who claim to be solid Labour supporters of many years' standing - unlike me, say - would ape the Blairite tendency and throw their toys out of the pram, indicates to me that they are willing to reject what their peers have voted for in a democratic process.
The ridiculous posturing of Danzcuk and Mann, the silliness of Umunna and his pals forming their little faction, the sheer arrogance of Cooper refusing to serve in a Corbyn-led cabinet because she doesn't like his policies whilst having lamentably few of her own, is shameful.

Nobody knows what will happen in the vote - yet. Nobody knows what a Corbyn-led Labour would look like - yet.
One thing we can be sure of is this - whoever wins, Cameron and his henchmen will find any opportunity to tear into them and rip Labour to shreds; the last thing Labour needs is its' own people doing it for him.

Meanwhile, I would appreciate it if certain quarters - regular or occasional - would desist from the patronising commentary and pejorative remarks they indulge in, and learn to couch their posts in a more amenable fashion. There are days like today when I won't post here much because of it; so I'm glad someone else has made those points today.....though judging by previous behaviour I doubt it will have the desired effect.

Think of those who would/will "throw their toys" as just like the LibDems who left the party because it was taken over by people who they felt betrayed the principals of the party when they entered the coalition. Cooper is a Labour MP who was voted for by her constituency because they believed in what she stood for. How can she serve in a cabinet who's leaders policies she no longer believes in? To do so would be totally hypocritical. Nothing to do with arrogance at all.
Those of us who have been in the party a long, long time fought the fight in the 80's and have no wish to do so again. To see the same thing happening all over again is - frankly - heart-breaking. I have paid full membership to the Labour party, and contributed to local and national campaign funds, for more years than I care to remember, now my party is being whisked away from me for £3, yet I'm expected to just suck it up and go along the wishes of 3 quid voters and call it "democratic".
I can no more support Corbyn than true Liberal Democrats could support Clegg.
Michael Foot filled halls and rallies as well.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 15290.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tinyclanger2]

& Kendall's supporters came out as being in the highest income bracket.

Huge surprise there.

[Willow904]

@AAW

I'm trying to be optimistic about Corbyn, but I fear you may well be right.

[AngryAsWell]

@AAW

I'm trying to be optimistic about Corbyn, but I fear you may well be right.

I hope I'm wrong, but fear I'm not. I'll stay a member but become a sleeper, one just waiting to vote in the next leaders election, unless they keep the 3 quid supporter idiocy, in which case I'll leave and re join for £3 just to vote.

[rebeccariots2]

@AAW

I'm sorry for how sad / angry you feel about this AAW. Apologies if I haven't got the words right there ... but hope you know what I mean.

It probably won't help but I think it's worth saying that if Corbyn wins I don't think it's going to be down to the £3ers - I think he'll get a majority of the full party members as well. But - more importantly - I just don't get a sense that he's going to force through extreme policies. I think he's going to include more people in developing policies - than the pretty small number of the PLP and those members in the power structures who were involved before. His approach so far hasn't been at all about imposing things on people ... he talks about consulting - so I can't see why he will suddenly change.

As for Cooper not supporting his policies and therefore not being willing to be in his shadow cabinet - should he be leader - that's absolutely her prerogative. I partly blame the media for - inevitably - forcing the other candidates to declare such positions during the campaign. It's the kind of decision that is probably best made final in one's own mind once the results have come in and you've had time to consider all the ramifications and where you best think you can make a difference - not in the glare of the media halfway through a contest. Sadly the media and grandees and some rabid supporters of the different candidates have made this into a pretty unpleasant and extreme spectacle. I can sort of hear the Fight, fight, fight, ...fite,fite,fite... chants breaking out and it's very unappealing.

Once the results are in there is going to have to be a lot of reflection on all sides. Don't get too downcast about it - please.

[ohsocynical]

Why is it such a bad idea people are desperate to find a politician who really seems to speak for them?

We are experiencing sheer cruelty. I can't remember in my lifetime such twisted, crooked, evil legislation as we are seeing now.
Maybe there is a big majority who are fed up with politicians mouthing platitudes. Maybe they like someone who's not afraid to say it like it is.
Is it such a surprise they like him because he tends to stick by what he believes and says, not what is convenient for others?

I suspect many who flock to see him don't look any further than that...But is that so bad? They're desperate, disillusioned, and plain pissed off with Politicians on the whole.

I reckon for many, Corbyn is their last hope.

Society is becoming sicker by the day and if we can't have politicians who recognise it, truly empathise and can be trusted on to act for our good, not theirs, then we are in deep shit.

[rebeccariots2]

Andy Burnham retweeted
Caroline Walsh ‏@cawalsh 6h6 hours ago
Have re-read Dan Jarvis' report 'Reconnecting Labour' several times today.Can't recommend it enough: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/a ... 1440871372" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …. Pls read&share

[ohsocynical]

I really couldn't stay a member if Kendall gets it.
If Burnham or one of the others gets it rather than Corbyn, I shall have to wait and see what happens and hope he/she takes on board the lean towards the left to some degree. If they don't then here is a full Labour member, who has supported them with donations despite being hard up, because she liked Ed's policies, who probably won't renew next year.

I hope it doesn't happen. I doubt they'd be that stupid. But unlike Hugo, I don't have a crystal ball....

[tinyclanger2]

The MPs know their colleagues. They are supposed to act as a filter to stop implausible populist candidates getting elected.

That they didn't do this, and that around 17 MPs nominated someone they knew should not lead the party, is what led some to describe this small group as 'morons.'

This post is a good example of why you sometimes piss people off Hugo. Whilst you don't explicitly call people who support Corbyn 'morons', it is very easy to draw that inference from what you post. I support Corbyn. I'm not a moron. I'd appreciate it if you would word your posts more carefully; I don't mind a debate, I won't flounce off; but your post is rather provocative.

If you are someone who passionately believes in the kind of things Corbyn does, and think they have a chance of electoral success, then of course you are not a moron for voting for him. Wrong yes, but not a moron.

The people who Evil Blairite John McTernan called morons were those MPs who don't support Corbyn, but nominated him to widen the debate. Out of his 35 nomination, that amounts to about 18 MPs, including the ever popular Frank Field who thought that Corbyn needed to be squashed.

He is here at 2.30

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

People like Beckett, Cruddas, Field and Thornberry have behaved moronically. John McDonnell hasn't: this is what he wanted.

That small group are morons for having behaved in such a way.

I don't. But I don't remotely believe in what the others have to offer. Nor do I believe the British will vote for them. Whether we like it or not (and I don't) we are voting for the future direction of the party - not the next leader of the opposition.

[TobyLatimer]

Round and round and round we spin,
To weave a wall to hem us in,
It won't be long, it won't be long
How slow and slow and slow it goes.

[youtube]xHeg4K9r024[/youtube]

[tinyclanger2]

I'm beginning to wonder if FTN is doomed if Corbyn wins.
It will be too bitter a pill for some to swallow.

I sincerely hope not. I miss so many people who were here in the past. I'm no angel, but I wish we could just agree to disagree on some of the more contentious points (and ignore the posts of whoever's winding us up on a given day).

For example, if I see ONE MORE PUNCTUATION EDIT from that PorFavor character .....

[rebeccariots2]

I'm beginning to wonder if FTN is doomed if Corbyn wins.
It will be too bitter a pill for some to swallow.

I sincerely hope not. I miss so many people who were here in the past. I'm no angel, but I wish we could just agree to disagree on some of the more contentious points (and ignore the posts of whoever's winding us up on a given day).

For example, if I see ONE MORE PUNCTUATION EDIT from that PorFavor character .....

Yeah she's really beyond the pale.

[PorFavor]

I'm beginning to wonder if FTN is doomed if Corbyn wins.
It will be too bitter a pill for some to swallow.

I sincerely hope not. I miss so many people who were here in the past. I'm no angel, but I wish we could just agree to disagree on some of the more contentious points (and ignore the posts of whoever's winding us up on a given day).

For example, if I see ONE MORE PUNCTUATION EDIT from that PorFavor character .....

I'm bracketing you in the above bolded category . . . . . . .

[ohsocynical]

It's not the way society should be but you just ask some of those desperate people who are supporting Corbyn what's important to them.

How can you reason about sensible fiscal policies, with someone who's been to the food bank, gone to bed hungry the night before, had a loss of benefits, struggled to find the bedroom tax, or is working for next to nothing, that we spend billions on weaponry, and overseas aid when their own child is hungry or wearing ill fitting or worn out shoes because they can't afford new. Or the old person being left to their own devices.
Although in better times they'd feel desperately sorry for the little one abroad and gladly see them helped, of course they'll put their own family first. They'll tell you charity begins at home and the money could be better spent on social care or our NHS. And I've spoken to a lot of people who've voiced that view.

Mr Ohso's being treated for cancer. The Royal Berkshire Hospital staff are brilliant but they are unable to keep within the time limit for treating it. How do you think we feel about that?

Sod Trident.

Edited to say sorry if I sound argumentative. And I couldn't spell devices.

[ohsocynical]

Lords & Ladies who lunch...while Diane Abbott can’t resist the canapes

GREEDY peers have been gate-crashing receptions held in the House of Commons to hoover up the free food and drink.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/601684 ... he-canapes

To link, or not to link. It is the Express, and it might not be true...

[utopiandreams]

... I can no more support Corbyn than true Liberal Democrats could support Clegg...

When you put it like that, AAW, I feel your pain but still don't agree with you and guess I am looking for a new home. It is your prerogative if you have no wish to share yours, it seems there is only so far we shall concede. I cannot begin to express the ire I felt when I heard the manner of Clegg and Alexander attacks on Labour, their more natural bedfellows. Unless there is more taciturn cooperation Tories shall remain the victors.

Tories are the enemy of social cohesion and progress. I fear that unless Labour become a broader church that challenges and does not mimic them I can see no way forward... I however have wasted 40 odd years so only have my beliefs left... and we all know where that can lead. No, no , no I am not at all like him. As a somewhat unpopular poster in the other place used to say, we shall see.

Edit: moved 'Unless there is more...' to end of para.

[AngryAsWell]

... I can no more support Corbyn than true Liberal Democrats could support Clegg...

When you put it like that, AAW, I feel your pain but still don't agree with you and guess I am looking for a new home. It is your prerogative if you have no wish to share yours, it seems there is only so far we shall concede. Unless there is more taciturn cooperation Tories shall remain the victors. I cannot begin to express the ire I felt when I heard the manner of Clegg and Alexander attacks on Labour, their more natural bedfellows.

Tories are the enemy of social cohesion and progress. I fear that unless Labour become a broader church that challenges and does not mimic them I can see no way forward... I however have wasted 40 odd years so only have my beliefs left... and we all know where that can lead. No, no , no I am not at all like him. As a somewhat unpopular poster in the other place used to say, we shall see.

You're more than welcome to share mine - just don't walk in the door and change my decorations and furnishing to the point that I no longer recognise it as my home.

[Tonibel]

@ohsocynical and the foreign aid budget, why can't the BBC World Service be funded from this? It provides/provided for better value in increasing our influence abroad than a lot of the projects we do fund.

[rebeccariots2]

Brian May: I'll take Dorset badger cull to the High Court
http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_r ... court.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Willow904]

I just came across this on the BBC website. It's quite old, 20th of August, but it has some informal polling on the leadership election I hadn't seen before:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34001305" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jeremy Corbyn is the favourite to be the next Labour leader according to the bookmakers, the opinion polls and his own opponents. But is a Corbyn victory assured?

Reading this made me feel the contest is still rather up in the air. I can't help but wonder if the press haven't been making rather a lot of Corbyn's poll lead, given how badly wrong the polls got the election, with a lot more data to go on. Are the polls creating rather than reflecting the story yet again? I'd certainly feel a lot more comfortable if they weren't all run by Tories.

[utopiandreams]

Andy Burnham retweeted
Caroline Walsh ‏@cawalsh 6h6 hours ago
Have re-read Dan Jarvis' report 'Reconnecting Labour' several times today.Can't recommend it enough: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/a ... 1440871372" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …. Pls read&share

I've only read the executive summary so far, rr2, which largely focuses on votes lost to Ukip. I had mentioned younger Ukip voters' concerns who were more natural Labour voters but felt their own job securiity threatened by immigration. Maybe it was more prevalent than I thought and let's face it, the older drift to Ukip was or should have been known.

I'll keep it open in a tab or download for later but have still to look at the DWP mortality report if report is indeed what it may be called. Thanks for the link.

[ohsocynical]

@ohsocynical and the foreign aid budget, why can't the BBC World Service be funded from this? It provides/provided for better value in increasing our influence abroad than a lot of the projects we do fund.

Agree. But I would ask are we a good influence now?

[rebeccariots2]

Andy Burnham retweeted
Caroline Walsh ‏@cawalsh 6h6 hours ago
Have re-read Dan Jarvis' report 'Reconnecting Labour' several times today.Can't recommend it enough: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/a ... 1440871372" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …. Pls read&share

I've only read the executive summary so far, rr2, which largely focuses on votes lost to Ukip. I had mentioned younger Ukip voters' concerns who were more natural Labour voters but felt their own job securiity threatened by immigration. Maybe it was more prevalent than I thought and let's face it, the older drift to Ukip was or should have been known.

I'll keep it open in a tab or download for later but have still to look at the DWP mortality report if report is indeed what it may be called. Thanks for the link.

Looking into how to tackle Ukip was his brief Ohso - so the report focuses pretty exclusively on that - although there are obviously issues re reconnecting with voters that cut across the various parties they may have gone to.

Editing to say just realised that should have been addressed to utopian not Ohso - sorry both.

[utopiandreams]

... You're more than welcome to share mine - just don't walk in the door and change my decorations and furnishing to the point that I no longer recognise it as my home.

Can we talk about it? ( even if that does go against the grain). Btw I do use emoticons in text messages but they can seem terse.

[AngryAsWell]

I just came across this on the BBC website. It's quite old, 20th of August, but it has some informal polling on the leadership election I hadn't seen before:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34001305" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jeremy Corbyn is the favourite to be the next Labour leader according to the bookmakers, the opinion polls and his own opponents. But is a Corbyn victory assured?

Reading this made me feel the contest is still rather up in the air. I can't help but wonder if the press haven't been making rather a lot of Corbyn's poll lead, given how badly wrong the polls got the election, with a lot more data to go on. Are the polls creating rather than reflecting the story yet again? I'd certainly feel a lot more comfortable if they weren't all run by Tories.

Thanks for posting that, it's more or less how I feel really, that it's still very much up in the air but the polls are pushing the result along, as you say - creating rather than reflecting the story yet again.
If he doesn't get 50% in the first round second preferences will be really important in the outcome.

[rebeccariots2]

SW1 Labour is too busy pretending to be in the West Wing to value Labour’s local government leaders
http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/08/30/sw ... t-leaders/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ohsocynical]

Thrifty idea: How to make fun lollipop fridge magnets in 7 simple steps

http://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/famil ... un-6339925

Damn. I've found just the thing to while away those long winter evenings.

[utopiandreams]

Brian May: I'll take Dorset badger cull to the High Court
http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_r ... court.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks, rr2, not just for this but for all your and Mr. Riots efforts. This cull is beyond comprehension a list of petitions may be found here: Badger Action News (http://badgeractionnews.org/take-action/petitions/), but the government is not listening. MP?

For anyone interested there is the Badger Trust 'Stop The Cull' film (6m 18s) with David Attenborough, Mark Cawardine, George Monbiot and Simon King below the followng (http://www.derbyshirewildlifetrust.org. ... -must-stop).

We condemn the Government’s decision to roll out the badger cull to Dorset and resume culls in Somerset and Gloucestershire.

We are two years into a five year badger vaccination programme, working with farmers and landowners across Derbyshire to reduce bovine TB in a more economic and humane way.

We are very disappointed that the Government has chosen to extend the cull. Our vaccination programme has received great support from the public, farmers and landowners as well as local and national media. We are committed to ensuring the cull does not come to Derbyshire and will continue our valuable work.

We urge the Government to drop badger culling from its bovine TB strategy and prioritise badger vaccination, alongside a comprehensive package of cattle measures: better biosecurity, stricter movement controls, improved TB testing and development of a cattle vaccine.

Edit: rearranged - couldn't do that when we did it longhand.
Edit: corrected typo in Monbiot

[AngryAsWell]

... You're more than welcome to share mine - just don't walk in the door and change my decorations and furnishing to the point that I no longer recognise it as my home.

Can we talk about it? ( even if that does go against the grain). Btw I do use emoticons in text messages but they can seem terse.

I don't know what you are implying here, but for clarity - I talk to anyone who want's to talk to me.

[ephemerid]

Think of those who would/will "throw their toys" as just like the LibDems who left the party because it was taken over by people who they felt betrayed the principals of the party when they entered the coalition. Cooper is a Labour MP who was voted for by her constituency because they believed in what she stood for. How can she serve in a cabinet who's leaders policies she no longer believes in? To do so would be totally hypocritical. Nothing to do with arrogance at all.
Those of us who have been in the party a long, long time fought the fight in the 80's and have no wish to do so again. To see the same thing happening all over again is - frankly - heart-breaking. I have paid full membership to the Labour party, and contributed to local and national campaign funds, for more years than I care to remember, now my party is being whisked away from me for £3, yet I'm expected to just suck it up and go along the wishes of 3 quid voters and call it "democratic".
I can no more support Corbyn than true Liberal Democrats could support Clegg.
Michael Foot filled halls and rallies as well.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 15290.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you, AAW.

NB - I do not include you in the few posters who irritate; I appreciate your points, but I think I don't agree with them all. Some, sure.

I think many of us who left a lifelong interest in all things Liberal after Clegg's behaviour were particularly annoyed with him because he had campaigned on a left-of-centre ticket; it seemed, to me anyway, that it was a step way too far to go into full coalition with the Tories. They will have to do something pretty dramatic to get me back...

Labour is a much bigger party and it has always had some dichotomy between its' left and right. I thought Miliband did a fantastic job keeping the party as united as possible, and I think he would have made a good PM and statesman. Maybe he will yet.
He faced an unprecedented situation in Scotland; I still think that without that and the Tory press, a lethal combination, he could have won and he really wasn't that far off. He wasn't helped by some of his own MPs - like Danzcuk - briefing against him.

What interests me is how Corbyn's ideas are, IMHO, nowhere near as "left" as they are made out to be - and I also think that one of the reasons why people are listening to him is because he isn't an Identikit politician.

I also think it is wrong - and, yes, arrogant - for any MP to suggest that if called to serve their party (and their country) in opposition thy will take their skills and experience to the back benches. It looks like pique.

Hopefully, when the vote is done we'll know where we are; if the full breakdown of the votes is published, we'll find out whether it was the fully paid-up members who made the result decisive. Until then, we don't know if it'll be the "£3 supporters" who swung it.

I think you and I are agreed that we'd like to see a strong opposition - we're just not agreed on how to get there.

[utopiandreams]

@AngryAsWell

I presume you mean the bit you highlighted. It was a reference to my distaste for using emojis/emoticons. Perhaps I jest too often and generally don't like to give the joke away. Not that this was a joke per se, but would I rearrange your furniture without discussing it?

[Willow904]

According to the polls I have seen, if any group swings it decisively for Corbyn, it's most likely to be union members, but given how late the unions were in sorting out ballots (my husband's voting form came much later than mine) I'm dubious as to how accurate the polls can be. I wonder how many people Yougov polled who thought they had a union vote who didn't know they needed to have volunteered to pay the political levy and also needed to have signed up specifically as an affiliated supporter.....