Weekend Edition - Saturday/Sunday 5th/6th September

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 7:33 am

Good Morning.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 7:35 am

Prompted by rebeccariots2's comment on Ken Livingstone on Any Questions, I'm not sure how many saw my mentioning HARDtalk on the Future of Socialism in the early hours the other morning (repeated here in a little more detail): Zeinab Badawi talks to Ken Livingstone and Charles Clarke about what the leadership battle within Britain's Labour Party means for socialist politics. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... -socialism). There was much agreement but more caution from Clarke.

For all the criticism of Corbyn I feel his sense of purpose and direction of travel. Of course he is going to state his personal viewpoints but I do not see them as dictatorial more starting points for consensual discussion. Obviously some may comprise lines that he would not cross that is the nature of our very being, nevertheless whether he really has the potential to become one, great leaders rarely rule with God given right or know all the answers, they gather dynamic teams around them often with internal disputes and disagreement. I see him more as offering a mission statement rather than a destination with all of the solutions.

True he may have had 30 odd years on the back benches with no ministerial experience but could it not be that he has not sought personal ambition when the party has drifted toward the right? I believe and hope that the country at large is saying no more, we all have a collective responsibility and no longer wish the gilded few to hold all the power. I would rather a rebellion than a revolution, perhaps a largely disillusioned electorate is prepared to take the chance. Some may disagree.

By the by I'm not sure whether or not he is the best choice but you must agree that he inspires and energises popular support. Why is that such a bad thing?

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 7:58 am

Mr Cartoonist Rowson's latest (on David Cameron's response to the refugee crisis) bears the title, Tides:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... on-cartoon
If you look very very closely you will see a very tiny fish, standing on a mound on a spit of sand, doing a spot of pointing. Also what looks like a tiny cannon floating in the sea, pointing towards dear old Blighty, if I've got my sense of direction correct - a water-cannon, perhaps... Comments aren't open yet - perhaps after 8 or whenever the weekend crew get in.

Welcome to the weekend, all

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 8:07 am

utopiandreams wrote: True he may have had 30 odd years on the back benches with no ministerial experience but could it not be that he has not sought personal ambition when the party has drifted toward the right?

No leader would have promoted him. Kinnock, Blair, Brown and Miliband would have had no use for Corbyn. Corbyn's life was to be a rebellious leftwing backbencher. A less funny Skinner. Parliament needs people like that, it is not an ignoble role.

I don't think he had any ambition to lead. He stood because it was his turn within the faction and others, such as McDonnell, didn't want to do so.

This is mildly interesting on Burnham's canpaign and the small Cooper surge we have seen

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index. ... per-surge/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If Corbyn is removed before 2020, and that must still be likely I suppose, Cooper now looks to me to be the one the PLP will seek to rally behind. The consensus within the Westminster Bubble where Burnham lives is the last paragraph.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 8:08 am

@LadyCentauria

Very clever is that Rowson fella. As for the cannon I can't make it out, but could be a loaded gun and the fish I believe is a somewhat diminished Nigel Farage, snake in Ukip colours, and not the big fish he once was. I am looking at it in highest zoom and even than I put on my reading glasses so I wouldn't exactly claim to be 100% correct. I note the flotilla of refugees on the horizon too.

Postscript: I am leaving the 'than' typo if only to demonstrate one of my most annoying ones, namely typing an 'a' for an 'e'. Most embarrassing when 'ant' replace 'ent', you'd think I cannot spell. Mind you there possibly are too many occasions for my liking, spelling mistakes that is. Usually corrected where I really have to proof read.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 8:23 am

Morning all, thanks for starting us off, utopiandreams.

"...you must agree that he inspires and energises popular support. Why is that such a bad thing?"
I do agree - and it isn't a bad thing.

Evidently, some think that "popular support" means unthinking support; which implies people can't think for themselves. That's a bit insulting.
It's my view that people are interested in Corbyn because he represents change from the usual style of politics.

18 years ago, Blair got a lot of "popular support" for the same reason. His promotion of "Third Way" politics turned out to be not quite what was advertised; it involved more government not less, and what he called "a new form of capitalism".

Whilst New Labour did a lot of good in many ways, I don't think there is any question that many people felt it betrayed left wing principles.
I suspect many people find it difficult to see any substantial difference between the main parties now, and the ABC candidates haven't done enough to make the point that Labour is different - it is, but their campaigns have been lacklustre to put it mildly.

My opinion is that Corbyn is attracting people because they want change - they may not agree with all his ideas (I don't) but I think they want to see a more inclusive politics. Those people are not just starry-eyed youngsters, either, despite the reports in the media.
His rallies are packed - those who keep droning on about how Foot was popular too, but lost the GE in 1983, I say that this is not a GE but a leadership contest. Even if it was, Cameron is no Thatcher, there is no Falklands, and there is no SDP-type defection (yet).

What matters most to me now is that we have an effective opposition. As long as the party supports Corbyn if he wins - and if he does, that will be the wish of party members which should be supported - then it will be possible to fight the Tories as their majority is so small.
2020 is a long way off - things change in politics, sometimes very quickly. Anything could happen before then.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 8:27 am

@SpinningHugo

Odd that I speak of taking a chance so you offer a link to a gambling site.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 8:31 am

I remain of the view that it's unlikely that Jeremy Corbyn will ever be Prime Minister.

But, I also believe there is a pressing need for a political voice that really challenges neoliberal hegemony.

This is the conundrum for me. I respect folk on both sides of this divide I see, and still don't know where I am

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 8:38 am

And yes Hugo if in the end Corbyn's legacy is to have dragged Yvette Cooper out of the bubble and helped her find her own voice he will have played a valuable part. Yvette does I believe have prime ministerial potential.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 8:46 am

Morning.

A question for RebeccaRiots.
Why could Ken Livingstone not peel his own hard boiled egg, all those years ago ?

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 8:49 am

utopiandreams wrote:@LadyCentauria

Very clever is that Rowson fella. As for the cannon I can't make it out, but could be a loaded gun and the fish I believe is a somewhat diminished Nigel Farage, snake in Ukip colours, and not the big fish he once was. I am looking at it in highest zoom and even than I put on my reading glasses so I wouldn't exactly claim to be 100% correct. I note the flotilla of refugees on the horizon too.

Ah, having temporarily turned the brightness on my screen up from minimum (my eyes, my eyes! Aargh!) you might well be correct on both the colours and the snake. Poo! I wanted it to be a pointing-fish, pointing at the Fishpointer. Yep, Farage/UKIP-snake as Knut - but attempting to turn back the tide rather than demonstrate that even he (Knut) could not stop the waves. And possibly a loaded gun. Those boats on the horizon are chilling - not because I imagine this country is 'full' (it's far from it!) but that so many are driven from their homes, families, and the lives they'd built by war, disaster, and disorder; and because so few people realise that this country's insulation against the same is very thin and very brittle.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 8:50 am

Morning folks.

Glad I read this - recommended by a Paul Flynn tweet. It's pretty bang on for me - and pretty funny too.

Swing left or tack right, Labour will be sunk without unity
John O'Farrell
There’s so much public feuding going on in the party at the moment, it’s as if Labour has an emotional problem with popularity
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... iz-kendall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... So let’s take this historic surge in support and try to imagine it might possibly be a positive opportunity. Let’s get behind whichever leader our supporters elect under the rules we presented to them, even if 0.0001% of them turn out to be Toby Young and that bloke who used to sell Living Marxism outside Woolworths before they abolished Woolworths (and Marxism). Local Labour parties, don’t just invite these new supporters to your September ward meeting! Get them involved in a campaign or a protest. This has been a call to look at how we do politics, and ask ourselves whether the first thing new recruits want to hear is a picky argument over “matters arising from minutes of the last meeting”.

It should be Labour party branches organising food and clothes for refugees in Calais; it should be Labour party activists leading local protests on the living wage or housing issues. Let’s do this together, as a mass party, focusing our fire on our real enemy (and maybe Shaun Woodward).

Unity – that is the only route to Labour victory. And I say: expel anyone who doesn’t agree with me.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 8:53 am

@LadyCentauria

Yeah I had and then hesitated from saying 'and there are so many of them'.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 8:56 am

''What matters most to me now is that we have an effective opposition. As long as the party supports Corbyn if he wins - and if he does, that will be the wish of party members which should be supported - then it will be possible to fight the Tories as their majority is so small.
2020 is a long way off - things change in politics, sometimes very quickly. Anything could happen before then.''

You say that because you are open minded Ephie.

Others have a crystal ball they think shows them the future.
Or rather a crystal ball that shows them the future they want to see. Doom, destruction.

I'm beginning to understand why so many people abandoned Labour in Scotland.
Seeing the same old stuff being pushed for fear of any real change.

Glad you've popped back too.
Hope cordial relations are being restablished with Show.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 8:57 am

@rebeccariots2

That 'even if 0.0001% of them turn out to be Toby Young' particularly amused me, rr2.

Oh and for the avoidance of doubt when even LadyC could not bring herself to thank me, the Toby I referred to the other day as not being one to allow your kids near was one such Toby Young and not our good friend Latimer.

Edit: replaced 'benefit' with 'avoidance'. Dunno where that came from.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 9:11 am

It was long ago and it was far away
And it was so much better that it is today.

So ... In February 1981, Michael Foot led Margaret Thatcher by 16 points.

Kinnock had a 23 point lead when the poll tax was introduced.

Left is not always bad in the public eye.

We aren't ever going back to the days of Militant. I don't quite get the despair from the Danczuk & the Mann camps etal ?

: ScreenShot00736.jpg (42.88 KiB) Viewed 8416 times

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 9:11 am

ephemerid wrote:Morning all, thanks for starting us off, utopiandreams.

"...you must agree that he inspires and energises popular support. Why is that such a bad thing?"
I do agree - and it isn't a bad thing.

Evidently, some think that "popular support" means unthinking support; which implies people can't think for themselves. That's a bit insulting.
It's my view that people are interested in Corbyn because he represents change from the usual style of politics.

18 years ago, Blair got a lot of "popular support" for the same reason. His promotion of "Third Way" politics turned out to be not quite what was advertised; it involved more government not less, and what he called "a new form of capitalism".

Whilst New Labour did a lot of good in many ways, I don't think there is any question that many people felt it betrayed left wing principles.
I suspect many people find it difficult to see any substantial difference between the main parties now, and the ABC candidates haven't done enough to make the point that Labour is different - it is, but their campaigns have been lacklustre to put it mildly.

My opinion is that Corbyn is attracting people because they want change - they may not agree with all his ideas (I don't) but I think they want to see a more inclusive politics. Those people are not just starry-eyed youngsters, either, despite the reports in the media.
His rallies are packed - those who keep droning on about how Foot was popular too, but lost the GE in 1983, I say that this is not a GE but a leadership contest. Even if it was, Cameron is no Thatcher, there is no Falklands, and there is no SDP-type defection (yet).

What matters most to me now is that we have an effective opposition. As long as the party supports Corbyn if he wins - and if he does, that will be the wish of party members which should be supported - then it will be possible to fight the Tories as their majority is so small.
2020 is a long way off - things change in politics, sometimes very quickly. Anything could happen before then.

Excellent post Ephe. The bit I've bolded is important. People are looking for something radical and different. This is because they know that what we have at present isn't working, at least not for them. Hence the working class Ukippers. Labour should not allow themselves to be displaced by right-wing radicalism; that way lies perdition.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 9:12 am

utopiandreams wrote:@rebeccariots2

That 'even if 0.0001% of them turn out to be Toby Young' particularly amused me, rr2.

Oh and for the avoidance of doubt when even LadyC could not bring herself to thank me, the Toby I referred to the other day as not being one to allow your kids near was one such Toby Young and not our good friend Latimer.

Edit: replaced 'benefit' with 'avoidance'. Dunno where that came from.

Ah. Phew! I'd meant to ask but forgot. Have a hug

Hmm. That might be two hugs but you're very welcome to them. x

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 9:12 am

Milband had a 13 point lead at one stage btw http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/polit ... -lead-2007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 9:12 am

Those aboard the Corbyn hate-wagon can pop over to the Mail for fresh ammunition.

''Posh past of the SexPot Trot: How Corbyn was brought up in a seven bedroom home, went to public school and played polo.''

But did he ever get anyone to peel his hardboiled egg for him ? We should be told.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 9:20 am

From The Irish Independent.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 9:24 am

LadyCentauria wrote:.. Ah. Phew! I'd meant to ask but forgot. Have a hug Hmm. That might be two hugs but you're very welcome to them. x

Most appreciated but I had better warn you I'm not a very physical guy lest it be misunderstood; one hug would do thanks. The possible confusion had occurred to me after I'd posted but given its context in response to RoT's comment on his free school didn't think it necessary. Apols if so taken.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 9:27 am

yahyah wrote:Those aboard the Corbyn hate-wagon can pop over to the Mail for fresh ammunition.

''Posh past of the SexPot Trot: How Corbyn was brought up in a seven bedroom home, went to public school and played polo.''

But did he ever get anyone to peel his hardboiled egg for him ? We should be told.

I would not like to give the impression that Ken expected to have his hard boiled egg peeled for him ... no no no. As I dimly remember it he was talking (quite a lot) so some starry eyed, rapt student took it upon themselves to do it.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 9:30 am

Thanks for the clarification RR.
Must admit I had a Daily Mail-ish sort of image of RedHot Ken surrounded by adoring women vying to serve his every whim.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 9:49 am

yahyah wrote:''What matters most to me now is that we have an effective opposition. As long as the party supports Corbyn if he wins - and if he does, that will be the wish of party members which should be supported - then it will be possible to fight the Tories as their majority is so small.
2020 is a long way off - things change in politics, sometimes very quickly. Anything could happen before then.''

You say that because you are open minded Ephie.

Others have a crystal ball they think shows them the future.
Or rather a crystal ball that shows them the future they want to see. Doom, destruction.

I'm beginning to understand why so many people abandoned Labour in Scotland.
Seeing the same old stuff being pushed for fear of any real change.

Glad you've popped back too.
Hope cordial relations are being restablished with Show.

Yo! Yahyah!

Ooh, I'm not "open-minded" according to some - I am suffering from a brand new mental illness, "Corbynmania". This malady includes hope (unreasonable); desire for change (deluded); and a failure to agree with the self-appointed (spin?) doctors.
The only cure for this appalling affliction is to be detained under Clause Four of the Crazy Dangerous Corbynmanics Act in a party corrections facility where re-education takes the form of being told that Corbyn is, in fact, Foot. Or maybe Benn.

I am back because I got bored with pointing at fish. I could only keep it up for a few days. No wonder Our Glorious etc. has to have 5 or 6 jolly hols per annum. I expect he comes back to what he calls work (ie. being tough and passionate etc.)for a bit of light relief.

Relations with Show are cordial now because he is doing what he is told to do by the doctor, the district nurse, and Moi. As I have complete control of the ripping off of elastoplast, he has to be very very good indeed. I also have the walking-stick under constant surveillance, and if he takes it into his head to do anything other than resting, I hook him back with the handle.

They don't like it up 'em, yahyah. In all manner of ways.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 9:54 am

Counter those accusations of being emotional, unreasoning with this psychiatrist's view Ephie.
I posted it a few weeks ago.

''As a psychiatrist, I find the emotional reactions of the Anyone But Corbyn camp interesting''
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/as- ... 65279.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 9:56 am

Off now to go walking, and apologies to those who are sick to the back teeth of the election.

Maybe a separate leader election thread for the next week ?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 10:13 am

@ephemerid

I do hope show isn't so constricted that he cannot bend either knee. I remember once having been hit by a motorcyclist who'd overtaken someone on the inside and I hadn't seen him until too late when crossing the road. Thank God that I'd at least jumped so my legs weren't carrying my weight. My point: when going for a number two I had to position myself accordingly and fall onto the toilet and damn well pray that I had done so correctly. Too much information?

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 10:14 am

Aftevenimorn all...

Firstly....an apology for my tone and general clouncing funtery the other day....and posing questions without the grace to come back and respond

When I linked to the 'Arts' piece in the maybenotquitesonazigraph, I was particularly interested in these points (rather than the headline about all children having access to learning a musical instrument) .....

The current climate of Treasury value measurement methodologies (taken from practises used in the property market and elsewhere) to try to find mechanisms appropriate to calculating the value of visiting art galleries or the opera are a dangerous retreat into a callous commercialisation of every sphere of our lives.

Our current government’s approach risks undermining the very future of a sector that multiplies the returns on any funding invested. The arts and culture industry receives 0.1% of government funding but contributes 0.4% to GDP. The creative economy now accounts for 5.8% of all UK jobs. The arts are linked to 42% of inbound tourism-related expenditure while British films (themselves often supported by direct public investment) generated £1.4 billion of exports with a trade surplus of £916 million in 2013.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... ppier.html

...which, I believe(TM), is a politician who recognises that in an 'economy', money is not everything - if you 'invest' you may see the monetary fruits of that investment later than this years' balance sheet.....but also in a stronger and more sustainable way, with actual real people benefiting.

...and my link to the piece about PQE - http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=31626 - was to offer another view (or, more accurately, that there is, at least, another view)....which appeared to become mired down in a 'whose list of economists was the most bestest' competition....I wasn't aware there was a list of 'supporters' on the link - ~~perhaps someone could show me where it is?~~ (Stop it Wolfie - you're being a t**t) - perhaps it's because he's Australian (or a bit like the no longer listened to because they're just so wrong Nobel prize winning economists, Krugman and Stiglitz)....and did someone mention Ha Joon Chang?

http://mancunion.com/2013/11/07/time-fo ... economics/...from 2013.

...and the concept of a National Investment Bank is bad how? Running as a commercial bank, it can (as the banks do now) 'create' money from thin air, but instead of then adding the same amount as 'debt' and expecting the loanee to 'repay', it would have an asset....the contractors and workers paid directly to build the hospital or school, spending the money in their local communities....so creating a real asset, with a 'value' in the 'marketplace'.

...and public transport is precisely that - a service to the public, by the public - a smooth efficient nationally planned system is a service, not a business....as with the arts above, the benefit to society as a whole is far greater than this years balance sheet...forward planning and long term investment can (and will) provide Britain with something useful, but we can't have that (although (positions extremely well-worn tinfoil hat) it was ever thus - in 'conspiracy world' the elite have specifically targeted public transport and pushed for individualism through the promotion of the 'freedom' a car gives....and the reliance on oil)...

...and housing - council housing was at least neutral and in most cases profitable for the local authority....and pensions etc etc.

As we have now had 36 years of deregulation, reform and privatisation, I would, at the very least, expect to start seeing some of the much-vaunted (at the time of announcement) advantages and a 'more efficient and better way' of doing things....around pensions, energy, housing, health, education....to be clear, all was not perfect in 'the '70s'....but it was a damn sight more stable and enjoyable than it is now....to quote from Tems piece (a good read - thanks Tem)...

Like Benjamin Disraeli a century before, Margaret Thatcher was a radical reformer more in the tradition of John Lillburne or even Atlee. First, she challenged Disraeli’s concept of One Nation Conservatism, then the established social consensus was ripped apart by her governments of the 1980s and 90s. In opposition to that change was the potential new Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. His vision of Social Democracy, that seems so radical to some today, was the post-war consensus that Thatcher destroyed.

...and lest we forget who the real enemy is...

[youtube]gWIZjuzwmUA&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

...and as usual, apologies for any typos/offence I may cause/sheer unreadability...and for mentioning Corbyn again

TTFN

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 10:22 am

@Lonewolfie

You are not alone.

Swarthlander · Post by **Swarthlander** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 10:24 am

Good morning.

Just for the record, re: leadership election.
I had a battle between head and heart. Seeing as the heart has caused me trouble in the past I went with the head.

I've voted:
Leader - 1 Burnham; 2 Corbyn; 3 Cooper; 4 Kendal.
Deputy - 1 Creasy; 2 Eagle; 3 Bradshaw; 4 Watson; 5 Flint.

That's my choice and I won't bore you with the justification.

@HindleA - I've been there and I feel your grief. My condolences and best wishes to you.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 10:25 am

yahyah wrote:Those aboard the Corbyn hate-wagon can pop over to the Mail for fresh ammunition.

''Posh past of the SexPot Trot: How Corbyn was brought up in a seven bedroom home, went to public school and played polo.''

But did he ever get anyone to peel his hardboiled egg for him ? We should be told.

I thought it was a matter of record that he went to grammar school?

I suppose that given how many thought (wrongly) that Ed was public school educated, we can expect the same with Jezza......

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 10:29 am

@Swarthlander

Please don't change your sign off on my account, Swarthlander, but why has Osborne at Thatcher's funeral sprung to mind? Proof positive I guess.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 10:34 am

yahyah wrote:Off now to go walking, and apologies to those who are sick to the back teeth of the election.

Maybe a separate leader election thread for the next week ?

I think the most interesting thing I've seen about the election posted recently was about how only 50% of ballots had been returned as of last week. It's all very much up in the air still. I had thought Cooper, who's only just started to really make an impression, had left it too late, but now I'm not so sure. If Burnham made the early running and Corbyn came through strongly mid-term, I think it fair to say Cooper has made the most of the dying days of the campaign. It's anyone's as far as I can see (although probably not Kendall, I suspect).

Swarthlander · Post by **Swarthlander** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 10:41 am

utopiandreams wrote:@Swarthlander

Please don't change your sign off on my account, Swarthlander, but why has Osborne at Thatcher's funeral sprung to mind? Proof positive I guess.

I wish it could be some 'profound saying' but it's from Downton Abbey (EastEnders with Toffs). It's said by the character Dowager Countess of Grantham, played by Maggie Smith. I don't like the TV show but I love Maggie Smith.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 10:44 am

Morning.Cable plugging his book."IDS is fundamentally decent"-just wow.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... r#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 10:50 am

Willow904 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Off now to go walking, and apologies to those who are sick to the back teeth of the election.

Maybe a separate leader election thread for the next week ?
I think the most interesting thing I've seen about the election posted recently was about how only 50% of ballots had been returned as of last week. It's all very much up in the air still. I had thought Cooper, who's only just started to really make an impression, had left it too late, but now I'm not so sure. If Burnham made the early running and Corbyn came through strongly mid-term, I think it fair to say Cooper has made the most of the dying days of the campaign. It's anyone's as far as I can see (although probably not Kendall, I suspect).

Ultimate turnout is unlikely to be above 70-75% - that would be *spectacularly* high for a postal ballot.

If so, most votes *have* been cast and Cooper has almost certainly left it too late.

Besides, the MSM ramping of her and rubbishing of Burnham seems to be creating a reaction amongst some - the mistrust and contempt many left leaning people have for them shouldn't be underestimated, especially after their monstering of Ed.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 10:53 am

Swarthlander wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:... I wish it could be some 'profound saying' but it's from Downton Abbey (EastEnders with Toffs). It's said by the character Dowager Countess of Grantham, played by Maggie Smith. I don't like the TV show but I love Maggie Smith.

I've never ever seen the former but do realise it is popular. As for the latter the last time I watched Dirty Den was alive. I occasionally see the closing scene but wonder at why so many are always shouting. Which reminds me...

Oh go on but I may have mentioned it before so shall keep it sweet. A guy from a private road adjacent and behind where I live had challenged my parking there during road works outside. I lost it but so did he, he was much bigger too and forcefully pushing me away chest to chest. Cutting to the chase he had a lovely chocolate coloured dog, I don't know the breed, sat calmly next to two screaming idiots. I cooled things down by offering the dog the back of my hand then fussing and commented on how gorgeous it was. We ended up parting on good terms. I guess he thought that if his dog liked me I couldn't be all bad.

Swarthlander · Post by **Swarthlander** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 11:05 am

utopiandreams wrote: ......Cutting to the chase he had a lovely chocolate coloured dog, I don't know the breed, sat calmly next to two screaming idiots. I cooled things down by offering the dog the back of my hand then fussing and commented on how gorgeous it was. We ended up parting on good terms. I guess he thought that if his dog liked me I couldn't be all bad.

I currently have four dogs, three Chocolate Labradors and one Yellow Labrador (in the avatar).

Personally I do not trust people who do not like dogs or who my dogs do not like.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 11:10 am

Morning all. Anyone for some cake?

I keep thinking that someone must have made a mistake - can't possibly be 56. How did that happen?

Swarthlander · Post by **Swarthlander** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 11:10 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote: If so, most votes *have* been cast and Cooper has almost certainly left it too late.

I will be glad when it's all over, bar the shouting and recriminations (and there will be some whoever wins).
IMO this leadership election has been an embarrassing farce and has gone on far too long.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 11:12 am

I'm sorry a final one before |I leave you to it but reminded by the chest to chest belligerence. As a child, probably eight, we lived near B'ham Airport in Sheldon on the New Coventry Road, not directly but up a parallel side road with a very large embankment with hawthorn, nettles, brambles and the like to the dual carriageway below. One hot day playing with my bro, sister and another lad of similar age, we lads were just in shorts and sandals, when a big boy, unknown to us and sporting his Roman gladiator outfit approached us and demanded we be horses for his chariot. We refused so he said he'd push us down the hill. I boldly stood in front of him with my back toward it and said, "Go on then". Need I say more.

Swarthlander · Post by **Swarthlander** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 11:12 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all. Anyone for some cake?

I keep thinking that someone must have made a mistake - can't possibly be 56. How did that happen?

Ha! Just you wait young 'un.

Lovely cake and many happy returns.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 11:15 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all. Anyone for some cake?

I keep thinking that someone must have made a mistake - can't possibly be 56. How did that happen?

Happy Birthday Roger! Yum! nice cake, thanks, I felt the same a couple of weeks ago on hitting 63

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 11:17 am

@RogerOThornhill

Happy birthday!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 11:17 am

Good morfternoon.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 11:23 am

@AngryAsWell

That makes you a dragon too.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 11:43 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Off now to go walking, and apologies to those who are sick to the back teeth of the election.

Maybe a separate leader election thread for the next week ?
I think the most interesting thing I've seen about the election posted recently was about how only 50% of ballots had been returned as of last week. It's all very much up in the air still. I had thought Cooper, who's only just started to really make an impression, had left it too late, but now I'm not so sure. If Burnham made the early running and Corbyn came through strongly mid-term, I think it fair to say Cooper has made the most of the dying days of the campaign. It's anyone's as far as I can see (although probably not Kendall, I suspect).
Ultimate turnout is unlikely to be above 70-75% - that would be *spectacularly* high for a postal ballot.

If so, most votes *have* been cast and Cooper has almost certainly left it too late.

Besides, the MSM ramping of her and rubbishing of Burnham seems to be creating a reaction amongst some - the mistrust and contempt many left leaning people have for them shouldn't be underestimated, especially after their monstering of Ed.

This is my problem Anatoly. I can't decide what is authentic and what is hype among the non-Corbyn candidates. None of them seem to have Ed's gift of being able to speak over the media and give me messages I can trust (though too few chose to hear his of course). And if they can't speak to me, for God's sake I've even met Burnham, what hope do they have as leader of the opposition?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 11:43 am

Corbyn-led Labour could lose 500 council seats - Burnham camp (Guardian)

He's never struck me as being camp.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 05 Sep, 2015 11:46 am

TobyLatimer wrote:It was long ago and it was far away
And it was so much better that it is today.

So ... In February 1981, Michael Foot led Margaret Thatcher by 16 points.

Kinnock had a 23 point lead when the poll tax was introduced.

Left is not always bad in the public eye.

We aren't ever going back to the days of Militant. I don't quite get the despair from the Danczuk & the Mann camps etal ?

ScreenShot00736.jpg

Unfortunately, of course, what counts are actual elections, not midterm polls. Cameron led Brown by 20 points in 2008. Even Miliband was ahead by 13 points in 2012.