Tuesday 8th September 2015

Post by **refitman** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:12 am

Morning all.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:14 am

Cheers refitman and a good morning to all.

Following on from a few minutes ago in yesterday's thread, prompted by a newsclip on reopening railways that were closed by Beeching. Where they still exist in unbroken state, rather than allowing our Tory mates, see I can be nice when I want. Rather than allow our Tory friends to sell them off, or is that steal, why not make them footpaths and cycle ways. We could also use the advances of self-driving vehicles, such as mini-buses and their corresponding fuel efficiency, maybe even solar, to provide a fleet of vehicles at let's call them stations, pick up or order points, to provide additional transport; they don't have to be the fastest in the world. My mind goes blank all of a sudden but I'd much rather this than £30bn+ on HS2, is it?

'And woe betide vandals, they deserve greater punishment than they receive, especially those who think their wealth entitles them. Yes I'm looking at you, Bullingdon Boys.

Edit: inserted 'My mind goes blank...'
Edit: replaced 'HSE' with 'HS2'. See Google can sometimes be our friend, providing you're not short of a word or two.

Postscript: the punishment should be in the manner of reparations, putting the time in not money, that is. Persistent offenders may require additional education.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 7:28 am

Perhaps someone is listening. Shut up utopian, allow others their freedom of thought. What I'm on about is that there has just been something on Breakfast Today about schoolchildren needing more play and down time and that academic discipline is insufficient on its own. Are you listening Education Ministers or whomsoever is pulling your strings? I'd call it yanking your chain, and the rest of ours for that matter.

Edit: missing question mark.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 8:04 am

It's only me.

Developing with my public transport on disused rail lines meme, pick-up points need not be confined to stations. I'm sure there's a name for them, let me think... Oh yes, bus stops.

This came to me in the shower. I must say that my life has improved since only rinsing my hair, showers are so much quicker thereby affording me one a day, something I confess had lapsed. My mother used to say there were no need for lack of hygiene no matter how poor. I'm guessing she was not referring to refugees in their camps or worse. Let us spare a thought for them and the debate that Yvette Cooper requested for today. I wonder how far Cameron's magnanimity shall stretch.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 8:32 am

Morning.

''Number of households struggling with problem debt climbs 28% in three years as economic recovery fails to reach vulnerable''
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/hous ... 90207.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The TUC's Frances O'Grady points out that rising household debt is not the sign of a healthy economy.
It is in Tory terms, pushing debt onto the shoulders of those least able to cope. Trebles all round.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 8:38 am

Peter Jukes pointing this out ; the British ISIS were killed back in July, why the palarva now ?

Briton Reyaad Khan believed killed in air strike on Islamic State in Syria

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... tate-syria" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot00758.jpg (65.2 KiB) Viewed 9457 times

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 8:43 am

'Wham Bam Thank You Cam' headline from Murdoch's sleaze merchants.

Peter Jukes has been tweeting about some discrepancies in the reported dates of the death of one of those killed.
https://twitter.com/peterjukes?ref_src= ... r%5Eauthor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Telegraph seemingly attempting to smear Ed Balls by claiming the dead man was thrilled to meet him. They obviously couldn't find a link between him & Corbyn yet so Cooper's husband will have to do to bring Labour into the frame.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 8:52 am

Snap Toby.

Ah, well a bit of distraction from what we must not discuss.
Sorry to have mentioned the C****n and C****r words above.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 8:57 am

I think the reason that this has surfaced again as news is because that the previous reports in July made no mention of them being killed by our own forces.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:03 am

One day my son, all this will be yours

: queenfacts-email_3398567k.jpg (24.47 KiB) Viewed 9434 times

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:08 am

Good daytime, m'dears. The Independent (print version) has the headline "Refugees Welcome*" and, at the bottom of the page, "*Terms & Conditions apply". Finding the article online proves a wee bit more difficult because I can't find that headline, there, and there are a number of pieces that it might be. I'll have to wish you better luck than I but that headline and its footnote raised a wry smile - if that's the right adjective...

@utopiandreams: Yep, those ex-railway tracks have many potential uses. A lot of them have already been converted to paths, cycle-paths, and bridleways. There's an old railway line from Wimbledon that forms a branch of the Croydon Tram network and very useful it is. I don't know when the trains stopped running on it, though. The BBC has made a speeded-up film of the newly reopened Borders Railway - the whole length of the line in 60 seconds:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34173995

@TE & utopian: My 'helpful' shutting-up phrase*, from the middle of last night, was suggested as a conversation halter to be used by TE in the r/l situation he/she (?**) complained of, rather than at anyone here.

And, for the further avoidance of doubt/confusion, I have no idea whether or not Corbyn rides at all, let alone 'rides well'.

* That 'helpful' phrase/utterance: "Hmm. Solid sort of chap, though... in his own way. Rides well." Used to shut people up - amongst those who consider 'riding well' to be a guide to character or otherwise signalling PLU...
**Sorry, @TE, I genuinely don't know your gender!

Edit: formatting, again. Bumboils™

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:09 am

Can't help thinking the drone attack only took place because the lives of the Queen and Cameron as PM were threatened. If the intelligence was correct of course.

If it had been the lives of shoppers in a mall, or on a train, at risk action may not have taken place.

But suppose some sort of constitutional crisis would occur if Queen, PM and opposition leaders were killed in a terrorist attack and that would be the rationale.

But the cynic in me glimpses a scene where Cameron is shouting 'They wanted to kill me ! Me !' and going pinker and more puffed up until someone at Cobra piped up, 'why don't we drone them PM ?'.

Edited to add a comma. Must be spending too much time with PF.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:12 am

@TobyLatimer

To add insult to injury, Toby, that be a Proper Charlie or possibly a Big Willy to stretch the point.

Reaching for my coat... it is drizzling after all. Why had I wanted to say pissing it down... Zipping it now.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:19 am

@yahyah

Good points, yahyah, Queenie and our acting PM that is. I used to think IDS pusillanimous but then he appeared to demonstrate, or is that remonstrate with, new found courage. But that was after his appearance at a Select Committee hearing with an armed security detail to protect him from the marauding wheelchair bound that managed to attend.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:26 am

Roger made, as is usual for him despite his antipathy to me, a good point about how early the attacks on Crobyn are. There is 30+ years worth of hostages to fortune in his radical campaigning MP back catalogue. Why not wait until 2019, when it is too late to replace him, and then go with it?

I think there are two reasons

First, it is important to fix a politician's image in the public's mind early on. This was fatal for Ed Miliband. Once set, it cannot be changed.

Second, the press won't hold back. It is in their interest to publish stories before their rivals do. there is no homogeneous blob called the MSM who have it in for Labour.

Yesterday's:

Stop the War Coalition statement 2004

http://web.archive.org/web/200412261256 ... ement.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The StWC reaffirms its call for an end to the occupation, the return of all British troops in Iraq to this country and recognises once more the legitimacy of the struggle of Iraqis, by whatever means they find necessary, to secure such ends."

Chair: J Corbyn

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:28 am

@LadyCentauria

Apologies if you misunderstood, no worries I'm always doing it, but I was referring to my 'love affair' with Fat Dave and his penchant for riding. I may not have red hair, neither has Nadhim for that matter, but I had asked to loan a couple of horses earlier.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:52 am

Something of the "45 minutes" around Cam's "security threat" statement to Parliament. They weren't likely to hop on a plane and waltz through Heathrow armed to the teeth en route to Buck House or Chequers

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:54 am

@utopiandreams: Ah! I follow, now. I picture Fat Dave bumping along, awkwardly, and frequently coming a cropper

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:57 am

Patrick O'Flynn ‏@oflynnmep 26s26 seconds ago
Today´s news for 1.8m UK families on social housing waiting lists is... a lot more foreign nationals are being put ahead of you in the queue

That's the Ukip spirit.

Morning peeps.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 9:58 am

SpinningHugo wrote:Roger made, as is usual for him despite his antipathy to me, a good point about how early the attacks on Crobyn are. There is 30+ years worth of hostages to fortune in his radical campaigning MP back catalogue. Why not wait until 2019, when it is too late to replace him, and then go with it?

I think there are two reasons

First, it is important to fix a politician's image in the public's mind early on. This was fatal for Ed Miliband. Once set, it cannot be changed.

Second, the press won't hold back. It is in their interest to publish stories before their rivals do. there is no homogeneous blob called the MSM who have it in for Labour.

Yesterday's:

Stop the War Coalition statement 2004

http://web.archive.org/web/200412261256 ... ement.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The StWC reaffirms its call for an end to the occupation, the return of all British troops in Iraq to this country and recognises once more the legitimacy of the struggle of Iraqis, by whatever means they find necessary, to secure such ends."

Chair: J Corbyn

I notice, unsurprisingly, that you seemed to ignore the rest of my post about not having to repeat everything on here.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:04 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:Roger made, as is usual for him despite his antipathy to me, a good point about how early the attacks on Crobyn are. There is 30+ years worth of hostages to fortune in his radical campaigning MP back catalogue. Why not wait until 2019, when it is too late to replace him, and then go with it?

I think there are two reasons

First, it is important to fix a politician's image in the public's mind early on. This was fatal for Ed Miliband. Once set, it cannot be changed.

Second, the press won't hold back. It is in their interest to publish stories before their rivals do. there is no homogeneous blob called the MSM who have it in for Labour.

Yesterday's:

Stop the War Coalition statement 2004

http://web.archive.org/web/200412261256 ... ement.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The StWC reaffirms its call for an end to the occupation, the return of all British troops in Iraq to this country and recognises once more the legitimacy of the struggle of Iraqis, by whatever means they find necessary, to secure such ends."

Chair: J Corbyn

I notice, unsurprisingly, that you seemed to ignore the rest of my post about not having to repeat everything on here.

I didn't agree with that part and so didn't mention it. I think it is very important that the objections to Corbyn are all fully aired before his victory. It is important that people don't say 'I voted for him but didn't know....' The polls are not as yet closed, and I'll say something else once they are.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:13 am

James Landale ‏@BBCJLandale 1m1 minute ago
DUP join SNP in opposing air strikes over Syria. So no sign of consensus PM seeks regardless who Labour elect http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ctory.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:15 am

@LadyCentauria

Shush, LadyC, I enjoy the chase as much as the next man, but please don't let on I may have invited him. He really isn't my ideal riding companion.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:23 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

''Number of households struggling with problem debt climbs 28% in three years as economic recovery fails to reach vulnerable''
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/hous ... 90207.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The TUC's Frances O'Grady points out that rising household debt is not the sign of a healthy economy.
It is in Tory terms, pushing debt onto the shoulders of those least able to cope. Trebles all round.

Indeed, it's not an unforseen, unfortunate side effect of tory policy, it is tory policy.
OBR forecasts show household debt increasing to new highs in the next few years.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:25 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Patrick O'Flynn ‏@oflynnmep 26s26 seconds ago
Today´s news for 1.8m UK families on social housing waiting lists is... a lot more foreign nationals are being put ahead of you in the queue
That's the Ukip spirit.

Morning peeps.

I may be mistaken and I'm not sure where I heard it, possibly Channel 4 News but there was some talk yesterday of the sheer scale of feeling around the country for the refugees that Cameron seems totally oblivious of plus the few Ukip type I saw interviewed. My point: there was much discussion of councils wishing to help but seeking additional resources given the punishing austerity inflicted on them by this government. One thing however and I am really not mistaken was that some local authority chap was explaining their trying to engage private landlords for assistance, specifically stating that social housing was in such need that they cannot allow refugees first dabs.

Have I made dabs up or is it perhaps from some local dialect I've picked up over the years?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:27 am

SpinningHugo wrote:...The polls are not as yet closed, and I'll say something else once they are.

I'm sure you shall, Hugo, as no doubt shall I.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:31 am

gilsey wrote:... Indeed, it's not an unforseen, unfortunate side effect of tory policy, it is tory policy.
OBR forecasts show household debt increasing to new highs in the next few years.

Indeed not, gilsey. It's a price worth paying, providing of course that only the 'lesser orders' be so affected.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:40 am

[quote="SpinningHugo"]

"I think it is very important that the objections to Corbyn are all fully aired before his victory."
Including the one like "whole countries" (ie. one bloke) support Corbyn (ie. the one bloke who hasn't got a vote)
And what terrible countries the non-countries are!
Or - Corbyn being one of 70 people who dared to support an EDM on NHS homeopathic hospitals staying open......hospitals that do a lot of actual, y'know, real medicine as well.

"It is important that people don't say 'I voted for him but didn't know....'"
Not here it isn't. We are being instructed on a daily basis - sometimes repeatedly - on why you think Corbyn is rubbish.
You even link to rubbish articles that fail to prove whatever point it is you are trying to ram home. Again.

"The polls are not as yet closed, and I'll say something else once they are."
Well of course you will. You'll say a lot, I shouldn't wonder.
Why use a few words when a thousand will do?

The people who post here are very politically aware, Hugo. That's why they are here. It's a politics blog.

Those of us who do not subscribe to your point of view do not require you to re-educate us, thank you.
We will choose who to vote for in the way our personal politics and consciences lead us.

Constantly posting links to old (sometimes very old) speeches and/or articles that do not say what you claim they do is pathetic.
You are convincing nobody - and if your personal mission is to inform, you are failing to an almost laughable degree.

Your behaviour on this board is exactly the same as it was on CIF (and still is, under your many and various user names).
You deliberately post links and comments calculated to annoy.

You are a troll, Hugo. That's my opinion.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:43 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
James Landale ‏@BBCJLandale 1m1 minute ago
DUP join SNP in opposing air strikes over Syria. So no sign of consensus PM seeks regardless who Labour elect http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ctory.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Don't suppose there's much chance of Farron and his MPs backing them either?

(in contrast to 2013, of course)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:54 am

utopiandreams wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Patrick O'Flynn ‏@oflynnmep 26s26 seconds ago
Today´s news for 1.8m UK families on social housing waiting lists is... a lot more foreign nationals are being put ahead of you in the queue
That's the Ukip spirit.

Morning peeps.
I may be mistaken and I'm not sure where I heard it, possibly Channel 4 News but there was some talk yesterday of the sheer scale of feeling around the country for the refugees that Cameron seems totally oblivious of plus the few Ukip type I saw interviewed. My point: there was much discussion of councils wishing to help but seeking additional resources given the punishing austerity inflicted on them by this government. One thing however and I am really not mistaken was that some local authority chap was explaining their trying to engage private landlords for assistance, specifically stating that social housing was in such need that they cannot allow refugees first dabs.

Have I made dabs up or is it perhaps from some local dialect I've picked up over the years?

I'm familiar with "first dibs" but not with your variation. Perhaps it's a regional thing. Getting your "dabs" all over something is (to me) getting your hands (fingerprints = dabs?) on it.

See how I've steered clear of the leadership election? (Actually, that's really because I'm mainly content to simply await the result. I'll probably have a moan (regardless of the winner) then.)

Assassination by drone, though. Where to start? And was there any "collateral" damage?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:56 am

Aha I've just clicked telly on for a few moments and see Steve Coogan and some chap from IPSA speaking of press intrusion. May I also add my disgust for the msm portrayal of politics and similar topics, you know those issues that affect us all. Wishful thinking I know but I believe Leveson also addressed such matters.

Edit: replaced one of the 'matters' with 'issues'

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 10:58 am

@PorFavor

Thanks, PF, dibs it is.

Postscript: I agree with the rest of your post too.
... and an edit to correct your moniker that I'd inserted.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:01 am

I'm not exactly shedding tears for the people we zapped, but does *anybody* believe the "wanted to kill the Queen" schtick??

As pointed out this morning, this is all such unsubtle spinning (timed to coincide with Brenda's "milestone" as well) that its more than a bit reminscent of old style Soviet propaganda.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:09 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I'm not exactly shedding tears for the people we zapped, but does *anybody* believe the "wanted to kill the Queen" schtick??

As pointed out this morning, this is all such unsubtle spinning (timed to coincide with Brenda's "milestone" as well) that its more than a bit reminscent of old style Soviet propaganda.

And it seems to have completely wiped any discussion about the number of refugees we will take from the front pages. And the Commons defeat over the EU referendum which would normally be a fairly big story.

"Look over there! A dead squirrel!"

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:10 am

@AnatolyKasparov

Someone had better advise our acting PM that there is such thing as the Queen's Guard.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:13 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I'm not exactly shedding tears for the people we zapped, but does *anybody* believe the "wanted to kill the Queen" schtick??

As pointed out this morning, this is all such unsubtle spinning (timed to coincide with Brenda's "milestone" as well) that its more than a bit reminscent of old style Soviet propaganda.

I reckon if you asked any terrorist, they'd say they would like to kill Dave and the Queen; it would be quite a coup. Doesn't mean there are solid plans to do so...

Everything Dave and company does has an ulterior motive. It's the only way to cover up their incompetence...

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:14 am

Good morfternoon.

Appalling manners.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:19 am

For Roger and Tubby:

The Heights Free School is making an application which would allow it to be up and running as a full-sized school - on its temporary Caversham site.

The new free school is asking to expand to accommodate its full eventual size for 240 pupils and to stay for a further two years because it is unlikely the new school on its permanent site will be built in time.

Despite the Education Funding Agency’s announcement last month that its preferred site for the new school is Mapledurham Playing Fields, it is unlikely to be a quick and easy passage to building the primary school.

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local- ... y-10003332

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:23 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Appalling manners.

Indeed, PF, which reminds me of the night before last. Just pulling away from my youngest's work with a fellow passenger on board we saw another so stopped to offer him a lift too. I've only got a two-door so a bit of a hassle, not that I care about their legroom; it beats walking.

So there he is sat next to me in the front when what does he do next? Only proceeded to natter almost endlessly on his phone. I slapped his arm when he had finished and in no uncertain terms told him I'd only stopped to give him a lift because I'd especially wanted to speak with him.

Leave you in peace again... stuff to do.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:26 am

Germany says it could take 500,000 refugees a year

http://gu.com/p/4c7a2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Compare and contrast with our up to 20000.

Disgraceful behaviour, again and again and again.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:37 am

Talking of propaganda, I didn't watch last night's Panorama ~~hatchet job~~ documentary on Corbyn, but it has been said the programme claimed he was Len McCluskey's preferred choice for leader. If so, that is pretty close to a downright fib (the world and its dog knows he wanted Burnham, but the union overruled him)

I do hope the rest of it was of a somewhat more factually based nature than that.......

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:39 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Talking of propaganda, I didn't watch last night's Panorama ~~hatchet job~~ documentary on Corbyn, but it has been said the programme claimed he was Len McCluskey's preferred choice for leader. If so, that is pretty close to a downright fib (the world and its dog knows he wanted Burnham, but the union overruled him)

I do hope the rest of it was of a somewhat more factually based nature than that.......

Agreed as I understood it McClusky was unimpressed with the choice of Corbyn because he wants to win elections.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:43 am

PorFavor wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: That's the Ukip spirit.

Morning peeps.
I may be mistaken and I'm not sure where I heard it, possibly Channel 4 News but there was some talk yesterday of the sheer scale of feeling around the country for the refugees that Cameron seems totally oblivious of plus the few Ukip type I saw interviewed. My point: there was much discussion of councils wishing to help but seeking additional resources given the punishing austerity inflicted on them by this government. One thing however and I am really not mistaken was that some local authority chap was explaining their trying to engage private landlords for assistance, specifically stating that social housing was in such need that they cannot allow refugees first dabs.

Have I made dabs up or is it perhaps from some local dialect I've picked up over the years?
I'm familiar with "first dibs" but not with your variation. Perhaps it's a regional thing. Getting your "dabs" all over something is (to me) getting your hands (fingerprints = dabs?) on it.

See how I've steered clear of the leadership election? (Actually, that's really because I'm mainly content to simply await the result. I'll probably have a moan (regardless of the winner) then.)

Assassination by drone, though. Where to start? And was there any "collateral" damage?

(my bold)

Good-morning, everyone.

I echo your concerns, PorFavor. It's not unreasonable to ask current Tory government how much have they've contributed to the grave sadness of Syrian civilians having to run for their lives to seek safe environs. Explosives falling from the sky killing people can't be comfortable, 'targeted' or no.

One thing more, I've not posted some comments of mine expressing further indignation and my wariness of current leadership's abilities. I'm censoring myself because I'm frightened I may get a knock on the door from someone called an authority telling me I'm an enemy because of public comments criticising government action in this matter.

In the USA, a score of executive branch government have seen fit to authorise this kind of violent activity, calling it 'necessary to preserve the safety of US citizens and their property, truth, justice and the American way' or something like that. I must insist upon adherence to rules established nationally and internationally, democratically elected governments must act without secrecy and shouldn't withhold giving the accused a proper trial. It's wrong, this button-pushing violence raining down destruction. I self-censored my public commentary when I lived in the US too. I resented this because I'm not an enemy and won't use or condone violence.

We don't stop terrorism by becoming terrorists.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:53 am

Corbyn is an electoral liability.
Corbyn is the only candidate that will question austerity.
Corbyn will set the Labour Party back X years.
Corbyn is the best chance of resetting the 'what does the party stand for?' discussion.
Corbyn is...
Corbyn is...
Corbyn will...
Corbyn will...

Can all this stop whoever is announced leader and deputy on the 12th please? Hyperbole and soothsaying,let's aim to draw a line under it and focus on the real enemies.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 11:59 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Talking of propaganda, I didn't watch last night's Panorama ~~hatchet job~~ documentary on Corbyn, but it has been said the programme claimed he was Len McCluskey's preferred choice for leader. If so, that is pretty close to a downright fib (the world and its dog knows he wanted Burnham, but the union overruled him)

I do hope the rest of it was of a somewhat more factually based nature than that.......

I don't think it did, no.

It did have some amusing footage of McCluskey to add to the overall impression of "loony leftiness", but I don't think this view was ever attributed to him.

There is, of course, a certain amount of amusement to be had at McCluskey losing control of the political position of his union to his own leftwing.

The worst bits for Corbyn were the interviews where he lost his cool.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 12:01 pm

StephenDolan wrote:Germany says it could take 500,000 refugees a year

http://gu.com/p/4c7a2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Compare and contrast with our up to 20000.

Disgraceful behaviour, again and again and again.

I will write this.
I would think Dave would show greater largesse to civilians fleeing destruction and violence.
The UK PM has admitted yesterday the UK has dropped destruction into Syria last month.
Doesn't look good, Dave, come on!
You can't contribute to war and violence and then turn your back on what it creates.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 12:06 pm

citizenJA wrote: You can't contribute to war and violence and then turn your back on what it creates.

Sadly, I think you'll find that he can, you know.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 12:12 pm

As if nobody else ever "lost their cool" in an interview, eh Hugo?

Hamface has done it more than once, despite the fawningly sycophantic "questioning" he almost invariably recieves.

Again, I did not even preference JC - but *most* of the time he seems to remain pretty calm given the default mode of outright hostility many adopt towards him.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 12:16 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:As if nobody else ever "lost their cool" in an interview, eh Hugo?

Hamface has done it more than once, despite the fawningly sycophantic "questioning" he almost invariably recieves.

Again, I did not even preference JC - but *most* of the time he seems to remain pretty calm given the default mode of outright hostility many adopt towards him.

he has lost his cool a couple of times now, most prominently with Guru-Murthy.

I hold no brief for Cameron and agree that when he loses his cool it similarly looks dreadful. He isn't a politician of the first rank and ought to be easily beatable.

Unfortunately....

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Tue 08 Sep, 2015 12:20 pm

On the killing by drones

1. Iraq is entitled to act in self defence against those attacking it (ie Daesh)

2. The UK is acting under the Iraq governments request and authorisation. The UK has the same freedom of action as Iraq does as a result.

3. Military action against Daesh in Syria is legal because the Syrian government has proven "unable or unwilling" to stop military action from their bases there.

4. These people were acting for Daesh in Syria. Their deaths were therefore lawful.

5. If they were planning terrorist attacks in the UK, that provides an incidental benefit for their deaths, but not the legal justification under public international law.

6. The human rights of those killed is a quite separate question. Unlike the killing of the three IRA terrorists in Gibralta, these Daesh fighters were killed lawfully in a war, the UK operating lawfully for the Iraq government.

7. The argument that the deaths were justified under the UK's right to self defence is very doubtful. The UK is not subject to attack (unlike Iraq),