Saturday 12th September

[Tizme1]

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 4m4 minutes ago
.@Corbyn4Leader has sent email to party members asking for PMQs for nxt wk
#digitaldemocracy http://huff.to/1L8CJoi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is what it says;


It is a deep honour to be elected as the Labour Party's new Leader. The honour is not about holding office — it is about the opportunity to serve you in the fight to get a better government for our country.

I want to pay tribute to Andy, Yvette and Liz. As the last few weeks have shown, each of them cares passionately about the Labour party and its values and has made a fantastic contribution to it.

The Labour Party is the joint endeavour of each and every one of us that believe in fairness, equality and social justice. If you share these values then I want to use your talents to make us stronger, and I want to represent you.

So, help me be your representative. When I stand at the despatch box for Prime Minister's Questions on Wednesday, I want to be your voice.

What do you want to ask David Cameron? Tell me now and I will put your questions to him in parliament. My questions will be your questions.

Let's hold this government to account together with straight-talking, honest politics.

Thank you for your commitment to building a better future. I look forward to working with you.

Best wishes,

Jeremy Corbyn

[citizenJA]

That seems to be him calling the killing of bin Laden a tragedy, then using the same word for 9/11 immediately afterwards.

I can see what he means, of course. But it's foot in mouth stuff, like Rachel Reeves. It's not good enough.

I disagree with you.
Corbyn's words demonstrate obtaining justice is achieved not by becoming terrorists but by holding terrorists accountable for their terrorism by rule of law.

That's what he means. What he says is killing bin Laden instead of taking him alive is a tragedy. Like 9/11.

Foot in mouth.

No one can be said to be putting their foot in their mouths when they insist rule of law, not assassinations, are justice.

[ohsocynical]

Just heard Radio 4 news announcement saying several Labour frontbenchers have already stood down from any role in Corbyn's SC because they say they don't share his 'values'.

That's either shocking journalism from the BBC ... or if they really specified 'values' shocking to hear. I can understand them not sharing Corbyn's policy proposals ... but I thought we were all pretty much signed up to the same Labour values?

I know when the media decides to print or say something the truth, or rather honest reporting doesn't come into it. However I consider those MPs who have stood down to be petulant, childish, and selfish and have made themselves fair game for the media.

Andy Burnham being the exception at present, those who stood and those who were going to but backed down, have shown me exactly what I was afraid of when I was trying to decide who to vote for.

I feared they weren't interested in what we, the thousands of Labour party supporters and members want and would like to see happen even though the writing has been clearly on the wall for the last couple of months. I feared it might be more a grab for power rather than wanting to make things better for us.

Even before the leadership election Ed was leaning to the left and would have taken us further if he'd been elected.
By standing down they've clearly shown us that traditional Labour values aren't what they're about. That they don't believe in working together to make this a better country. To put it baldly they lied.

Every time in the past when one of them has failed to defend the sick, the poor and disabled and seemed to agree with a Tory policy, we've made excuses for them. Oh they got their words twisted, probably autistic, didn't quite mean it that way.

They've put themselves on the back benches. I hope they never get off them for what they've done.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I disagree with you.
Corbyn's words demonstrate obtaining justice is achieved not by becoming terrorists but by holding terrorists accountable for their terrorism by rule of law.

That's what he means. What he says is killing bin Laden instead of taking him alive is a tragedy. Like 9/11.

Foot in mouth.

No one can be said to be putting their foot in their mouths when they insist rule of law, not assassinations, are justice.

That's not what people are objecting to in what he said.

We did this before.

[ohsocynical]

Alan Gibbons @mygibbo

6,000 people join the Labour Party within five hours of Jeremy Corbyn's victory. I think you call that hope.

Owain Gardner ‏@Odbe34 3m3 minutes ago
Owain Gardner retweeted Alan Gibbons
Owain Gardner added,

Apparently it's now at 10,000! Just amazing

[rebeccariots2]

Alan Gibbons @mygibbo

6,000 people join the Labour Party within five hours of Jeremy Corbyn's victory. I think you call that hope.

Owain Gardner ‏@Odbe34 3m3 minutes ago
Owain Gardner retweeted Alan Gibbons
Owain Gardner added,

Apparently it's now at 10,000! Just amazing

Ah but apparently we should counter that hope with the reports of 'above usual interest' in taking up Lib Dem membership since lunchtime today!

I kid you not.

[citizenJA]

That's what he means. What he says is killing bin Laden instead of taking him alive is a tragedy. Like 9/11.

Foot in mouth.

No one can be said to be putting their foot in their mouths when they insist rule of law, not assassinations, are justice.

That's not what people are objecting to in what he said.

We did this before.

I don't understand what you're writing about.

[WelshIan]

Evening all

My thoughts are with HindleA and those of you who have serious illness in the family.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Alan Gibbons @mygibbo

6,000 people join the Labour Party within five hours of Jeremy Corbyn's victory. I think you call that hope.

Owain Gardner ‏@Odbe34 3m3 minutes ago
Owain Gardner retweeted Alan Gibbons
Owain Gardner added,

Apparently it's now at 10,000! Just amazing

Ah but apparently we should counter that hope with the reports of 'above usual interest' in taking up Lib Dem membership since lunchtime today!

I kid you not.

The Lib Dems are already positioning themselves as the electable opposition to the Tories, if Labours policy moves to the left in areas like defence and if Corbyn messes up economic policy they might do well. Problem they have being their actual lack of votes and the need for everybody to forget the last government.

[ohsocynical]

No one can be said to be putting their foot in their mouths when they insist rule of law, not assassinations, are justice.

That's not what people are objecting to in what he said.

We did this before.

I don't understand what you're writing about.

It's nit picking over just this one word Citizen JA. Tragedy.

[howsillyofme1]

Alan Gibbons @mygibbo

6,000 people join the Labour Party within five hours of Jeremy Corbyn's victory. I think you call that hope.

Owain Gardner ‏@Odbe34 3m3 minutes ago
Owain Gardner retweeted Alan Gibbons
Owain Gardner added,

Apparently it's now at 10,000! Just amazing

Ah but apparently we should counter that hope with the reports of 'above usual interest' in taking up Lib Dem membership since lunchtime today!

I kid you not.

The Lib Dems are already positioning themselves as the electable opposition to the Tories, if Labours policy moves to the left in areas like defence and if Corbyn messes up economic policy they might do well. Problem they have being their actual lack of votes and the need for everybody to forget the last government.

If something happens then something else may happen but it may not depending on something else so we should all panic

[citizenJA]

I've watched the video of the Labour leader candidates and everyone with them receiving the announcement of Corbyn's election as Labour party leader.
I've respect for everyone involved.
There were cheers, the other candidates dignified, gracious, moved and warm.
I've seen it with my own eyes.
Corbyn smiling, solemn and deliberate.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That John Crace wrote some right junk about the proceedings.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... of-triumph" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ohsocynical]

Neil Taggart ‏@TigerTaggart 38m38 minutes ago
@alanmills405

#DanHodges - the thinking person's #KatieHopkins

[citizenJA]

Ah but apparently we should counter that hope with the reports of 'above usual interest' in taking up Lib Dem membership since lunchtime today!

I kid you not.

The Lib Dems are already positioning themselves as the electable opposition to the Tories, if Labours policy moves to the left in areas like defence and if Corbyn messes up economic policy they might do well. Problem they have being their actual lack of votes and the need for everybody to forget the last government.

If something happens then something else may happen but it may not depending on something else so we should all panic

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[howsillyofme1]

I would just say to those who opposed Corbyn that he won overwhelmingly - not scraped in but won fair and square

He has not said anything that would preclude him working with all areas of the party and he was very conciliatory to his opponents. I know the Trident question could be a bit of an issue but then Blair did take on Clause 4 back in the day.

I do not think Trident and nuclear armaments have the same resonance they did 30 years ago and I, for one, am open to saving the money and using it elsewhere. It is a reasonable area for debate and one I do not understand why it is so contentious - I thought all things were up for discussion in this world of less money. He may offer an olive branch in terms of NATO membership

This election is over...so the same arguments you made before need to evolve to how the Labour movement under a Corbyn leadership can take on the Tories

The continually sniping and repetitive arguments are pretty unbecoming I must say - Anatoly and Paul have spoken in a constructive manner since the result....if you cant accept it then what are you going to do, work with others to undermine the leadership so he is replaced by someone else followed by a collapse in trust between the PLP and the membership?

[TechnicalEphemera]

Ah but apparently we should counter that hope with the reports of 'above usual interest' in taking up Lib Dem membership since lunchtime today!

I kid you not.

The Lib Dems are already positioning themselves as the electable opposition to the Tories, if Labours policy moves to the left in areas like defence and if Corbyn messes up economic policy they might do well. Problem they have being their actual lack of votes and the need for everybody to forget the last government.

If something happens then something else may happen but it may not depending on something else so we should all panic

No, but thinking ahead, considering what might happen and mitigating against stuff you don't want to happen is a generally good idea. Failure to do that sort of analysis tends to result in unexpectedly bad stuff happening - unexpectedly.

One hopes smart people in Corbyn's team are trying to work out just how they might win an election, and stopping centre left moderate voters decamping to the Lib Dems should be their biggest concern.

[StephenDolan]

The Lib Dems are already positioning themselves as the electable opposition to the Tories, if Labours policy moves to the left in areas like defence and if Corbyn messes up economic policy they might do well. Problem they have being their actual lack of votes and the need for everybody to forget the last government.

If something happens then something else may happen but it may not depending on something else so we should all panic

No, but thinking ahead, considering what might happen and mitigating against stuff you don't want to happen is a generally good idea. Failure to do that sort of analysis tends to result in unexpectedly bad stuff happening - unexpectedly.

One hopes smart people in Corbyn's team are trying to work out just how they might win an election, and stopping centre left moderate voters decamping to the Lib Dems should be their biggest concern.

Lib Dems voters are moderates? I thought going into 2010 they were more radical than Labour?

It may not have been the result that all wanted, but it was the result. Let's turn our guns on the real enemies, those labelled moderate one nation Conservatives by the RWP.

[WelshIan]

I'm a member of an affiliated Union, so had a vote through that.

I spent a lot of time here, reading through the opinion back and fore and I'd like to thank everyone for helping me to reach a decision on who to vote for.

I voted for Andy Burnham (Corbyn 2nd), out of fear for what the MSM would say about any other winner. I am very excited about Corbyn's win and the scale of it! I hope that the PLP recognise the excitement and enthusiasm behind Corbyn's win and capitalise on it.

However, Tubby is not the only one whose parents are not enthused by a Corbyn victory. I just hope that a principled opposition to the Tories, especially on welfare, will make people remember that we can be better and that there is a reason to vote Labour. Labour have over 4 years to make these arguments to voters, to provide a different vision for the country, there is time for minds to change.

I have suffered from an absence of hope since the Election, I can feel it returning.

[howsillyofme1]

The Lib Dems are already positioning themselves as the electable opposition to the Tories, if Labours policy moves to the left in areas like defence and if Corbyn messes up economic policy they might do well. Problem they have being their actual lack of votes and the need for everybody to forget the last government.

If something happens then something else may happen but it may not depending on something else so we should all panic

No, but thinking ahead, considering what might happen and mitigating against stuff you don't want to happen is a generally good idea. Failure to do that sort of analysis tends to result in unexpectedly bad stuff happening - unexpectedly.

One hopes smart people in Corbyn's team are trying to work out just how they might win an election, and stopping centre left moderate voters decamping to the Lib Dems should be their biggest concern.

I am sure they have more to think about at the moment than the positioning of the Lib Dems - Farron has been particularly ineffective as leader so far (not surprising with 8 MPs) and if you venture over to LDV you will see a party in denial and completely at odds with no direction. They still act as if they have 60 seats

The Lib Dems may harm the Tories in some areas as the tactical voting drifts back but they are no danger to Labour at the moment - obviously the party leadership should keep an eye on the situation but this continual worry over a mythical centre ground (which is actually a pretty extreme right) needs to end

[citizenJA]

Linked below is a video heading an article from today's events.
The video is called, "Jeremy Corbyn arrives at leadership result to a chorus of The Red Flag"

http://multimedia.guardianapis.com/inte ... =video/mp4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's wonderful to see a man so thoroughly comfortable walking among people without an armed guard.
Ed Miliband did that too, I'm unashamed of supporting both men.

[ohsocynical]

Sky Wanderer ‏@glopol_analysis 11m11 minutes ago
Sky Wanderer retweeted Sky Wanderer

BREAKING (NO MSM coverage)
US tanks entering #Hungary for military drill.
Regime change as per #Ukraine scenario?

Don't know whether this is right or not.....

[citizenJA]

I'm a member of an affiliated Union, so had a vote through that.

I spent a lot of time here, reading through the opinion back and fore and I'd like to thank everyone for helping me to reach a decision on who to vote for.

I voted for Andy Burnham (Corbyn 2nd), out of fear for what the MSM would say about any other winner. I am very excited about Corbyn's win and the scale of it! I hope that the PLP recognise the excitement and enthusiasm behind Corbyn's win and capitalise on it.

However, Tubby is not the only one whose parents are not enthused by a Corbyn victory. I just hope that a principled opposition to the Tories, especially on welfare, will make people remember that we can be better and that there is a reason to vote Labour. Labour have over 4 years to make these arguments to voters, to provide a different vision for the country, there is time for minds to change.

I have suffered from an absence of hope since the Election, I can feel it returning.

Good to read you, WelshIan!
Have some cinnamon toast and a cuppa.
I voted for Burnham first too.
I'm well satisfied with the results of this contest, sincerely.
It's a big win and I'm happy with the new Labour party leader.

[AnatolyKasparov]

I actually think that Farron will get on OK with Corbyn, and I could see them cooperating on quite a few things.

Don't forget that TF is well to the left in his own party as well......

[TechnicalEphemera]

If something happens then something else may happen but it may not depending on something else so we should all panic

No, but thinking ahead, considering what might happen and mitigating against stuff you don't want to happen is a generally good idea. Failure to do that sort of analysis tends to result in unexpectedly bad stuff happening - unexpectedly.

One hopes smart people in Corbyn's team are trying to work out just how they might win an election, and stopping centre left moderate voters decamping to the Lib Dems should be their biggest concern.

Lib Dems voters are moderates? I thought going into 2010 they were more radical than Labour?

It may not have been the result that all wanted, but it was the result. Let's turn our guns on the real enemies, those labelled moderate one nation Conservatives by the RWP.

Yes the Lib Dems are now moderates, you can see the rebranding going on with undue haste. In 2010 they appealed to a large chunk of left wing voters and students, in 2015 they appealed to nobody and in 2020 they will again appear as social democrats (Farron's victory has determined that).

I refuse to disengage critical thought, it is if nothing else a fascinating intellectual exercise to try and work out how Corbyn might win an actual election. Hanging on to moderate centre left voters is priority one (hold what you have), bringing Labour Kippers back to the fold is priority two (get back votes you lost in your working class demographic). The challenge will be chipping off a chunk of swing voters from the edge of Cameron's block. Do that and victory starts to look possible.

[Willow904]

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... sh-inquiry" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Parliament’s spending watchdog is to investigate why chancellor George Osborne decided to give £30m of taxpayers’ money to a deeply controversial garden bridge over the Thames.

So much for "austerity".

[howsillyofme1]

Who is it who are trying to wreck the party?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... arty-split" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems that it was only MPs that voted for Liz Kendall...she had 5% of the electorate voting for her but tyou would thinks she had given him a run for his money

If this continues Labour is dead and the killers are the PLP.....if they dislike the membership0s decision so much they should resign and let someone else represent the Labour Party in a new election

I doubt Labour would have trouble holding on to Stoke, Wolverhampton NE or Streatham with Corbyn as the leader

Not that I want this to happen but the PLP are completely out of step with the membership if they do so...much more than the Tories were with IDS

[howsillyofme1]

No, but thinking ahead, considering what might happen and mitigating against stuff you don't want to happen is a generally good idea. Failure to do that sort of analysis tends to result in unexpectedly bad stuff happening - unexpectedly.

One hopes smart people in Corbyn's team are trying to work out just how they might win an election, and stopping centre left moderate voters decamping to the Lib Dems should be their biggest concern.

Lib Dems voters are moderates? I thought going into 2010 they were more radical than Labour?

It may not have been the result that all wanted, but it was the result. Let's turn our guns on the real enemies, those labelled moderate one nation Conservatives by the RWP.

Yes the Lib Dems are now moderates, you can see the rebranding going on with undue haste. In 2010 they appealed to a large chunk of left wing voters and students, in 2015 they appealed to nobody and in 2020 they will again appear as social democrats (Farron's victory has determined that).

I refuse to disengage critical thought, it is if nothing else a fascinating intellectual exercise to try and work out how Corbyn might win an actual election. Hanging on to moderate centre left voters is priority one (hold what you have), bringing Labour Kippers back to the fold is priority two (get back votes you lost in your working class demographic). The challenge will be chipping off a chunk of swing voters from the edge of Cameron's block. Do that and victory starts to look possible.

Then go and join them if you think that Farron has won that argument and they are the 'moderate left' you seem to aspire to so much....I think you will find that he hasn't!

Where was he in the 'Assisted Dying Bill'? A bit of Cameron-like cowardice

[citizenJA]

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... sh-inquiry

Parliament’s spending watchdog is to investigate why chancellor George Osborne decided to give £30m of taxpayers’ money to a deeply controversial garden bridge over the Thames.

So much for "austerity".

Thank you for posting this, Willow904, I've just read it too.
Continue watching current Tory government, everyone.
They're bad leadership.

[TechnicalEphemera]

I actually think that Farron will get on OK with Corbyn, and I could see them cooperating on quite a few things.

Don't forget that TF is well to the left in his own party as well......

I think TF represents a returning Lib Dem demographic. Corbyn's challenge, as with the greens is to work with them whilst clearing them out of your target seats. In the case of the Lib Dems hang on to those Lib/LD marginals somehow. The key question is can the Greens win those South West Tory seats, if not collaboration with them isn't really sensible. Corbyn has probably just taken half the Green vote.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Its Boffey again, tbf.

He is a genuine **** and utterly clueless with it.

I note that comments aren't being allowed, btw - is the Graun going to go the way of the Staggers in this respect if their tantrum over Jez continues?

[Willow904]

No, but thinking ahead, considering what might happen and mitigating against stuff you don't want to happen is a generally good idea. Failure to do that sort of analysis tends to result in unexpectedly bad stuff happening - unexpectedly.

One hopes smart people in Corbyn's team are trying to work out just how they might win an election, and stopping centre left moderate voters decamping to the Lib Dems should be their biggest concern.

Lib Dems voters are moderates? I thought going into 2010 they were more radical than Labour?

It may not have been the result that all wanted, but it was the result. Let's turn our guns on the real enemies, those labelled moderate one nation Conservatives by the RWP.

Yes the Lib Dems are now moderates, you can see the rebranding going on with undue haste. In 2010 they appealed to a large chunk of left wing voters and students, in 2015 they appealed to nobody and in 2020 they will again appear as social democrats (Farron's victory has determined that).

I refuse to disengage critical thought, it is if nothing else a fascinating intellectual exercise to try and work out how Corbyn might win an actual election. Hanging on to moderate centre left voters is priority one (hold what you have), bringing Labour Kippers back to the fold is priority two (get back votes you lost in your working class demographic). The challenge will be chipping off a chunk of swing voters from the edge of Cameron's block. Do that and victory starts to look possible.

But I don't get how Corbyn manages any of that. His stance on immigration probably means the Kippers are gone for good now unless he pushes for an out vote in the EU referendum for other reasons, but then he risks losing the pro-EU voters out the other end. Moderate left-wing voters have already been made to feel very unwelcome by Corbyn supporters (not his fault, but still) and the 'security risk' scaremongering will frighten the swing voters.

I still feel that Corbyn is someone that a few people like a lot whereas Burnham is someone that a lot of people like a little. It seems obvious to me which would make a better leader of the Labour party. I just really hope I'm wrong, but I don't see the broad appeal in Corbyn at the moment.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Lib Dems voters are moderates? I thought going into 2010 they were more radical than Labour?

It may not have been the result that all wanted, but it was the result. Let's turn our guns on the real enemies, those labelled moderate one nation Conservatives by the RWP.

Yes the Lib Dems are now moderates, you can see the rebranding going on with undue haste. In 2010 they appealed to a large chunk of left wing voters and students, in 2015 they appealed to nobody and in 2020 they will again appear as social democrats (Farron's victory has determined that).

I refuse to disengage critical thought, it is if nothing else a fascinating intellectual exercise to try and work out how Corbyn might win an actual election. Hanging on to moderate centre left voters is priority one (hold what you have), bringing Labour Kippers back to the fold is priority two (get back votes you lost in your working class demographic). The challenge will be chipping off a chunk of swing voters from the edge of Cameron's block. Do that and victory starts to look possible.

Then go and join them if you think that Farron has won that argument and they are the 'moderate left' you seem to aspire to so much....I think you will find that he hasn't!

Where was he in the 'Assisted Dying Bill'? A bit of Cameron-like cowardice

Please try to distinguish between a general analysis of what a party is or isn't doing - I.e rebranding as moderate, versus a personal declaration of support for such a party. I am pointing out that this morphing of the Lib Dems is something that needs to be guarded against.

[howsillyofme1]

I actually think that Farron will get on OK with Corbyn, and I could see them cooperating on quite a few things.

Don't forget that TF is well to the left in his own party as well......

I think TF represents a returning Lib Dem demographic. Corbyn's challenge, as with the greens is to work with them whilst clearing them out of your target seats. In the case of the Lib Dems hang on to those Lib/LD marginals somehow. The key question is can the Greens win those South West Tory seats, if not collaboration with them isn't really sensible. Corbyn has probably just taken half the Green vote.

Which LD/Labour marginals - can only see Cambridge as one?

Why this bigging up of the Lib Dems.....it will take a lot to forget 2010-2015 and they also are a bit invisible now. Perhaps 2025 will be of interest. Their main focus will be winning back some of those Tory seats they lost and for that a bit of rapprochement with Labour will help a bit

[StephenDolan]

Well between Europe, local elections and Scotland 2016 is certainly going to be interesting.

[utopiandreams]

... If something happens then something else may happen but it may not depending on something else so we should all panic

Time was, hsm, that for every action there was an equal and opposite reaction, nowadays however if it can happen then bet your bottom dollar that it shall. Whatever the odds may be, gambling's not my forte.

Okay, okay that may be a little contrived, which may explain why I struggled so

[howsillyofme1]

Yes the Lib Dems are now moderates, you can see the rebranding going on with undue haste. In 2010 they appealed to a large chunk of left wing voters and students, in 2015 they appealed to nobody and in 2020 they will again appear as social democrats (Farron's victory has determined that).

I refuse to disengage critical thought, it is if nothing else a fascinating intellectual exercise to try and work out how Corbyn might win an actual election. Hanging on to moderate centre left voters is priority one (hold what you have), bringing Labour Kippers back to the fold is priority two (get back votes you lost in your working class demographic). The challenge will be chipping off a chunk of swing voters from the edge of Cameron's block. Do that and victory starts to look possible.

Then go and join them if you think that Farron has won that argument and they are the 'moderate left' you seem to aspire to so much....I think you will find that he hasn't!

Where was he in the 'Assisted Dying Bill'? A bit of Cameron-like cowardice

Please try to distinguish between a general analysis of what a party is or isn't doing - I.e rebranding as moderate, versus a personal declaration of support for such a party. I am pointing out that this morphing of the Lib Dems is something that needs to be guarded against.

and so are many, many other things. Most importantly watching the antics of the ex-SC

[AnatolyKasparov]

Lib Dems voters are moderates? I thought going into 2010 they were more radical than Labour?

It may not have been the result that all wanted, but it was the result. Let's turn our guns on the real enemies, those labelled moderate one nation Conservatives by the RWP.

Yes the Lib Dems are now moderates, you can see the rebranding going on with undue haste. In 2010 they appealed to a large chunk of left wing voters and students, in 2015 they appealed to nobody and in 2020 they will again appear as social democrats (Farron's victory has determined that).

I refuse to disengage critical thought, it is if nothing else a fascinating intellectual exercise to try and work out how Corbyn might win an actual election. Hanging on to moderate centre left voters is priority one (hold what you have), bringing Labour Kippers back to the fold is priority two (get back votes you lost in your working class demographic). The challenge will be chipping off a chunk of swing voters from the edge of Cameron's block. Do that and victory starts to look possible.

But I don't get how Corbyn manages any of that. His stance on immigration probably means the Kippers are gone for good now unless he pushes for an out vote in the EU referendum for other reasons, but then he risks losing the pro-EU voters out the other end. Moderate left-wing voters have already been made to feel very unwelcome by Corbyn supporters (not his fault, but still) and the 'security risk' scaremongering will frighten the swing voters.

I still feel that Corbyn is someone that a few people like a lot whereas Burnham is someone that a lot of people like a little. It seems obvious to me which would make a better leader of the Labour party. I just really hope I'm wrong, but I don't see the broad appeal in Corbyn at the moment.

Polls show quite a few "red" Kippers are actually attracted by Corbyn's economic populism and not being part of the Westminster bubble "in" crowd.

And please don't overstate the effect of a few idiots on social media.

The early signs from JC show that he understands at least some of the things that are required. As long as that is the case, he deserves support - not uncritical, but constructive.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Lib Dems voters are moderates? I thought going into 2010 they were more radical than Labour?

It may not have been the result that all wanted, but it was the result. Let's turn our guns on the real enemies, those labelled moderate one nation Conservatives by the RWP.

Yes the Lib Dems are now moderates, you can see the rebranding going on with undue haste. In 2010 they appealed to a large chunk of left wing voters and students, in 2015 they appealed to nobody and in 2020 they will again appear as social democrats (Farron's victory has determined that).

I refuse to disengage critical thought, it is if nothing else a fascinating intellectual exercise to try and work out how Corbyn might win an actual election. Hanging on to moderate centre left voters is priority one (hold what you have), bringing Labour Kippers back to the fold is priority two (get back votes you lost in your working class demographic). The challenge will be chipping off a chunk of swing voters from the edge of Cameron's block. Do that and victory starts to look possible.

But I don't get how Corbyn manages any of that. His stance on immigration probably means the Kippers are gone for good now unless he pushes for an out vote in the EU referendum for other reasons, but then he risks losing the pro-EU voters out the other end. Moderate left-wing voters have already been made to feel very unwelcome by Corbyn supporters (not his fault, but still) and the 'security risk' scaremongering will frighten the swing voters.

I still feel that Corbyn is someone that a few people like a lot whereas Burnham is someone that a lot of people like a little. It seems obvious to me which would make a better leader of the Labour party. I just really hope I'm wrong, but I don't see the broad appeal in Corbyn at the moment.

Yes, I would agree, but Corbyn has to find a way to achieve all of the above, or find a way of winning that doesn't require any of that. Since some fairly reasonable analysis tends to back up the idea that there isn't a large pool of non voting left wingers out there, one assumes it is the former. Corbyn is presumably not an idiot so he must have a strategy to achieve that, it will be interesting to see what it is.

For example an easy way out on nukes is simply to say this is too big a decision for a single party to make and if you win then you will call a referendum on disarmament. On Syria pose as being committed to action but not until Cameron can explain why it will help and what his strategy is. He will never get one, but it looks stronger than just saying no.

[howsillyofme1]

Lib Dems voters are moderates? I thought going into 2010 they were more radical than Labour?

It may not have been the result that all wanted, but it was the result. Let's turn our guns on the real enemies, those labelled moderate one nation Conservatives by the RWP.

Yes the Lib Dems are now moderates, you can see the rebranding going on with undue haste. In 2010 they appealed to a large chunk of left wing voters and students, in 2015 they appealed to nobody and in 2020 they will again appear as social democrats (Farron's victory has determined that).

I refuse to disengage critical thought, it is if nothing else a fascinating intellectual exercise to try and work out how Corbyn might win an actual election. Hanging on to moderate centre left voters is priority one (hold what you have), bringing Labour Kippers back to the fold is priority two (get back votes you lost in your working class demographic). The challenge will be chipping off a chunk of swing voters from the edge of Cameron's block. Do that and victory starts to look possible.

But I don't get how Corbyn manages any of that. His stance on immigration probably means the Kippers are gone for good now unless he pushes for an out vote in the EU referendum for other reasons, but then he risks losing the pro-EU voters out the other end. Moderate left-wing voters have already been made to feel very unwelcome by Corbyn supporters (not his fault, but still) and the 'security risk' scaremongering will frighten the swing voters.

I still feel that Corbyn is someone that a few people like a lot whereas Burnham is someone that a lot of people like a little. It seems obvious to me which would make a better leader of the Labour party. I just really hope I'm wrong, but I don't see the broad appeal in Corbyn at the moment.

I think UKIP voters are more complex than that and it is not immigration per se that is the problem but the consequences...they also feel left behind by globalisation which I understand completely. Corbin may be able to speak to them

I think this focus on what so-called Corbyn supporters have said of moderate left wingers is a bit overblown to be honest....there was intemperate commenting from all sides and we should not look backwards now

The danger is that the Labour hierarchy e.g. NEC, PLP and HQ cannot accept the result and just fall into indiscipline and in-fighting. It is here the people like Prescott (he is a strange man, whenever a crisis arises he seems to be there and saying the right things...the rest of the time he appears a buffoon), Winterton, Burnham and Miliband along with others need to help steady the ship over the coming weeks until the situation is clearer

[utopiandreams]

I actually think that Farron will get on OK with Corbyn, and I could see them cooperating on quite a few things.

Don't forget that TF is well to the left in his own party as well......

I may mock Farron, Anatoly, possibly because it would take a lot more to call me back, nevertheless I do feel there may be a reaching out and they both appreciate who the real enemy is... or so I hope.

Sour grapes may curdle the milk, so better we dry our eyes and face up to the challenge.

Edit: replaced 'tears' with 'eyes'. Should I try profundity I may as well have a stab at it.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Well between Europe, local elections and Scotland 2016 is certainly going to be interesting.

Think he'll be positive in 2016. I have longer term doubts, of course. Europe he's now steady, and the Tories will look the mess.

[Willow904]

Yes the Lib Dems are now moderates, you can see the rebranding going on with undue haste. In 2010 they appealed to a large chunk of left wing voters and students, in 2015 they appealed to nobody and in 2020 they will again appear as social democrats (Farron's victory has determined that).

I refuse to disengage critical thought, it is if nothing else a fascinating intellectual exercise to try and work out how Corbyn might win an actual election. Hanging on to moderate centre left voters is priority one (hold what you have), bringing Labour Kippers back to the fold is priority two (get back votes you lost in your working class demographic). The challenge will be chipping off a chunk of swing voters from the edge of Cameron's block. Do that and victory starts to look possible.

But I don't get how Corbyn manages any of that. His stance on immigration probably means the Kippers are gone for good now unless he pushes for an out vote in the EU referendum for other reasons, but then he risks losing the pro-EU voters out the other end. Moderate left-wing voters have already been made to feel very unwelcome by Corbyn supporters (not his fault, but still) and the 'security risk' scaremongering will frighten the swing voters.

I still feel that Corbyn is someone that a few people like a lot whereas Burnham is someone that a lot of people like a little. It seems obvious to me which would make a better leader of the Labour party. I just really hope I'm wrong, but I don't see the broad appeal in Corbyn at the moment.

Polls show quite a few "red" Kippers are actually attracted by Corbyn's economic populism and not being part of the Westminster bubble "in" crowd.

And please don't overstate the effect of a few idiots on social media.

The early signs from JC show that he understands at least some of the things that are required. As long as that is the case, he deserves support - not uncritical, but constructive.

Well I suppose it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Kippers would vote for someone who is for immigration just because the face fits, given that Kipper motivation makes little logical sense to me much of the time, so I'll take some comfort from that. I was mostly agreeing with TE that how Corbyn will win over the wider electorate is currently far from clear. Burnham was outlining his approach throughout the leadership campaign and Cooper talked about the need to work outwards in all directions from where Labour is now but Corbyn's strategy is far from clear to me.

[howsillyofme1]

TE

I do not believe that action in Syria is at all a sensible option and the Labour Party should stand against it....we should have learnt from previous disasters (I am not criticising all previous interventions but Iraq and Libya spring to mind). It appears Cameron is proposing action against both sides although, as normal, the prick doesn't seem to know what he wants!

Why should Corbyn pretend to be in favour if he isn't? H has to make a good argument why not but I think a principled stand works

Cameron seems to be using the refugee crisis to again try to precipitate a regime change and cement himself as being a statesman - the Sun using the death of that young lad as a justification was particularly disgraceful

Cameron has been an absolute embarrassment during this whole situation and his only response is to bomb more innocent people!

As to nuclear weapons....propose a referendum if you want but your proposal would make him look weak. Labour should seriously consider not replacing Trident and release money for other use. I have yet to see a strategic reason for keeping it and need convincing it is not just for ego. Germany has no nuclear arms and they are still a significant force....what does having nuclear arms capability do for world peace? I remember the Yes Prime Minister program when they discussed at which point they would actually be used

[utopiandreams]

... But I don't get how Corbyn manages any of that. His stance on immigration probably means the Kippers are gone for good now unless he pushes for an out vote in the EU referendum for other reasons, but then he risks losing the pro-EU voters out the other end. Moderate left-wing voters have already been made to feel very unwelcome by Corbyn supporters...

I disagree, Willow, Labourite Kippers aren't in my view anti-immigration per se more fearful for their own job security and prone to harm the msm do. As for unwelcome, now you remind me of Scottish Nats. I think we just need time to compose ourselves. As others have already highlighted, Tories are still at it. Please don't allow yourself to be so easily distracted.

[ohsocynical]

Yes the Lib Dems are now moderates, you can see the rebranding going on with undue haste. In 2010 they appealed to a large chunk of left wing voters and students, in 2015 they appealed to nobody and in 2020 they will again appear as social democrats (Farron's victory has determined that).

I refuse to disengage critical thought, it is if nothing else a fascinating intellectual exercise to try and work out how Corbyn might win an actual election. Hanging on to moderate centre left voters is priority one (hold what you have), bringing Labour Kippers back to the fold is priority two (get back votes you lost in your working class demographic). The challenge will be chipping off a chunk of swing voters from the edge of Cameron's block. Do that and victory starts to look possible.

But I don't get how Corbyn manages any of that. His stance on immigration probably means the Kippers are gone for good now unless he pushes for an out vote in the EU referendum for other reasons, but then he risks losing the pro-EU voters out the other end. Moderate left-wing voters have already been made to feel very unwelcome by Corbyn supporters (not his fault, but still) and the 'security risk' scaremongering will frighten the swing voters.

I still feel that Corbyn is someone that a few people like a lot whereas Burnham is someone that a lot of people like a little. It seems obvious to me which would make a better leader of the Labour party. I just really hope I'm wrong, but I don't see the broad appeal in Corbyn at the moment.

Polls show quite a few "red" Kippers are actually attracted by Corbyn's economic populism and not being part of the Westminster bubble "in" crowd.

And please don't overstate the effect of a few idiots on social media.

The early signs from JC show that he understands at least some of the things that are required. As long as that is the case, he deserves support - not uncritical, but constructive.

If many of those kippers were able to earn enough money to get by - and in working class terms that just means a holiday, clothes for the kids, running a car, and the odd night out, not a fortune, they'd not give a tinkers cuss about immigrants...

[howsillyofme1]

By the way I hope Burnham decides to stay on and becomes a strong voice in the SC.....the way the current mob are letting the party and themselves down is pretty disgusiting to see

There is no chance of a uniting and strong SC if all the senior MPs refuse to serve in it and instead spend their time bitching in the papers and on Marr! If that is the case I hope the constituencies move for some deselections

The way they were acting you would think it was Corbyn that was senior SC member at the 2015 election. The Shadow Chancellor lost his seat ffs!

[utopiandreams]

@howsillyofme1

Maybe sleep beckons, hsm, it took me some time to decipher SC. Not quite yet, got Motd before bed and I know not of any results... and for all you rugby fans, me too and I'd love some of the prima donnas to give it a go. I eventually gave it up myself as it was supposed to be fun and I didn't really like getting hurt.

Did I ever mention when I started playing hockey for a man's team at 14... Ouch!

[howsillyofme1]

@howsillyofme1

Maybe sleep beckons, hsm, it took me some time to decipher SC. Not quite yet, got Motd before bed and I know not of any results... and for all you rugby fans, me too and I'd love some of the prima donnas to give it a go. I eventually gave it up myself as it was supposed to be fun and I didn't really like getting hurt.

Did I ever mention when I started playing hockey for a man's team at 14... Ouch!

Good night - Shadow cabinet (laziness) - enjoy MotD - Wolves lost 2-1 but they aren't on it so I won't have spoiled it for you!

[Tubby Isaacs]

If many of those kippers were able to earn enough money to get by - and in working class terms that just means a holiday, clothes for the kids, running a car, and the odd night out, not a fortune, they'd not give a tinkers cuss about immigrants...

Well, if that is true, how does Corbyn improve economic growth, business investment, or anything like that?

I don't think he has any idea about this, in the way that, say Gordo did.

[citizenJA]

If many of those kippers were able to earn enough money to get by - and in working class terms that just means a holiday, clothes for the kids, running a car, and the odd night out, not a fortune, they'd not give a tinkers cuss about immigrants...

Well, if that is true, how does Corbyn improve economic growth, business investment, or anything like that?

I don't think he has any idea about this, in the way that, say Gordo did.

How is current Tory government improving economic growth, business investment?
They're not.
Dinging Tories daily with their failure is what I'll expect from Labour and the rest of the opposition.