Wednesday16th September 2015

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:58 am

In the last two two days we have had union rights attacked and the tax credit disgrace passed in Parliament. But the burning issue by the doorstepping hacks was the bloody anthem.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:59 am

So the whole Corbyn frenzy was to help cover a rise in unemployment ?
Quelle surprise.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:59 am

Sam Macrory ‏@sammacrory 1m1 minute ago
39,866 questions now submitted to Corbyn ahead of #pmqs. Not sure how he chooses 6, but one shad cab member has said to expect a surprise...

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:00 am

New headline.

Corbyn Queen Snub Increases Unemployment.

Pfft, who am I kidding, as if unemployment figures are the main news.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:01 am

Sorry - but just so you can gird yourselves for the potential next instalment ...

Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick 16m16 minutes ago
BBC cameraman in hospital last night with neck and face injuries after Corbyn aide allegedly assaulted him as Corbyn left his home yesterday

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:01 am

Anthem.

There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.

[youtube]BCS_MwkWzes[/youtube]

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:04 am

Sorry, am not thanking Rob out of egotism, but because it is cheering to know I'm not alone in feeling that.

See you all later, to hear just how terrible Corbyn was at PMQs

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:12 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Sam Macrory ‏@sammacrory 1m1 minute ago
39,866 questions now submitted to Corbyn ahead of #pmqs. Not sure how he chooses 6, but one shad cab member has said to expect a surprise...

Well he could give Ham Face a printed list, rr2, then ask, "So have you got answers to this lot, Dave?" Please note that I have suggested a suitable modicum of decorum and not the use of unparliamentary language.

Edit: pluralise answers... and correct pluralise.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:14 am

AndrewSparrow retweeted
Luke Pollard ‏@LukePollard 2h2 hours ago
Pretty desperate stuff from media over Corbyn and sandwiches. Sadly the truth won't be shared and the slur may stick http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/8140678" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

I can't even make myself get angry or outraged about this ... it's just so pathetic.

WelshIan · Post by **WelshIan** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:20 am

The Rugby World Cup starts on Friday. Let's hope all the players, and every single person in the stadia sings the anthem. Oh, and those watching on the tv too.

This is absolutely ridiculous.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:21 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
AndrewSparrow retweeted
Luke Pollard ‏@LukePollard 2h2 hours ago
Pretty desperate stuff from media over Corbyn and sandwiches. Sadly the truth won't be shared and the slur may stick http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/8140678" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
I can't even make myself get angry or outraged about this ... it's just so pathetic.

Bloody hell, rr2, it reminds me of that old conundrum, 'Why does your toast always land buttered-side down?' In this case since we're talking sandwiches and probably the vegetarian option, 'Why can we always count on someone to spill the beans?'

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:24 am

@WelshIan

Now, now, WelshIan, whatever next? You'll be expecting we stand to attention after a cinema screening. That would never do.

Swarthlander · Post by **Swarthlander** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:30 am

Radio 5 have just had an Alf Garnet phone in.

Some folk really need help.

Good morning.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:32 am

TobyLatimer wrote:I'm old enough to remember the controversy around Jimi Hendrix destroying the Star Spangled Banner at Yasgur's Farm (Woodstock) in a protest against Vietnam.

Maybe Jeremy should have taken along a Strat (or a ukulele) and played it with his teeth before setting it on fire.

Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

[youtube]sjzZh6-h9fM[/youtube]

Morning all. Morning Toby. Perhaps Jeremy had this in mind:

[youtube]-OePP3dL8fo[/youtube]

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:34 am

yahyah wrote:I see Monbiot was tweeting that he'd be available in the short term for the media as a pro-Corbyn commentator. Bet he's not had a call.

He was on Newsnight last night YahYah "discussing" the National Anthem issue .Mind you he could not get much of a word in between Evan Davies and Jenni Russel (introduced as a labour supporting Times journalist!) showing the MSM faux outrage at such a horrendous calumny.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:37 am

Has he resigned yet?

But seriously, all the justified outrage of this squirrel is diverting from the real issues and news discussions.

What are people's thoughts on what he should be asking?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:42 am

TobyLatimer wrote:WTF ? Kate Green claims opposing the welfare cap is not a Labour policy & they're just opposing the cuts

Owen Smith said the same on Newsnight.

Tying themselves in knots over it, why bother? Election's not till 2020.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:53 am

Two officers not singing the anthem standing behind Corbyn, and the woman standing next to Fallon not singing either. Anyone know who that is?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:57 am

yahyah wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
yahyah wrote:I hope this isn't coming out waspishly, it isn't meant that way.

But I hope those anti-Corbyn FTN posters who have stayed away aren't feeling schadenfreude or smugness at the press hysteria.

It would be aimed at any Labour leader, a 'moderate' one would be getting it just as hard, but in different ways.
I'm not sure they would. The establishment looks after its own. The message is 'play our game or we'll destroy you'.

This isn't democracy. We are not living in a full democracy. We need to recognise that.

That's why Green and people like her should not play the establishment game.
It is also why Corbyn needs to make it explicit, show the game for what it is not kow tow to it.

It's going to be a difficult time, and I admit that if I had swung for the 'must have a female leader' or 'go for a moderate' as the siren calls strongly sang to me, it might be me saying 'he's a disaster'.

But there's a certain freedom that comes with having voted Corbyn, and being more and more impressed by his character.

Ed's dad said socialism foundered because Labour didn't fight for it in the 1950's.
Let's surely fight for it now, it may be our last chance for a generation.
I don't want to die with a 'moderate' Labour party endorsing a lot of what the Tories do but quibbling about the time table, or the exact cost of Tory policies.

I suspect most people who don't think Corbyn is the answer are staying away because nobody here wants to hear anything they say. FTN isn't like Guardian Trolling is Free where it is a game of battle the muppet, once you step outside the group consensus posting just consumes time and adds no value.

As for what I think of Corbyn a few days into the job, it hasn't changed my mind but I have been shocked at how inept his media strategy is. On substance the choice of Shadow Chancellor was a strategic error, choosing your mate over somebody qualified to do it like say Ms Eagle is not a good look and won't end well. The rest of the SC (with the exception of the ever useless DA) was reasonable, getting Burnham and Benn on board a good move.

The right wing media have lost the plot, but he needs to be doing lots of TV and radio interviews right now. Get an image consultant, get a style consultant, get in his old press officer as liaison to the Labour team and sort the shambles out. If this goes on he really isn't going to last 6 months, which is not a good result as some of his stuff on austerity, on the unions, on civil liberties needs to be heard and needs to be said. Labour also needs time to adjust to the new realities and sort out a unifying (electable, anti austerity) candidate before being pitched straight into another leadership mess. He also needs a "moderate" spin doctor to explain to him what normal people may be thinking and how to talk to them and not just the Corbyn fans or the TUC. Maybe if he does that really well he might connect with voters. Sure the national anthem stuff is bollocks but it is unnecessary bollocks. Corbyn needs to slim his offer to anti Austerity, housing and making this country a just place to live (a fair shout for everybody, everybody pays taxes, no more freeloading elite), i.e. narrow the offer, and stick to that. Repeat that message for 5 years and maybe he could win in 2020.

Also sack Kate Green, I regard much of his platform as stuff he believes but doesn't really have a mandate for and that is electorally toxic (breaking Labour to bits on CND being one of these). However anti austerity and opposing benefit cuts are absolutely core and absolutely his mandate. If Green doesn't understand this why did she take the job? Concentrate on explaining why Corbyn is right to oppose them (there is an excellent economic argument to be made) not trying to find ways to carry on the old agenda.

Finally some thoughts from the wider media.

Owen Jones on why he needs a spin doctor

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... tter-media
(
Jonathan Jones (amazingly) with a very perceptive view on the Tory propaganda campaign (which is also why he is going to have to dump his CND commitment, maybe a referendum should be offered as policy - the question (does the UK wish to retain nuclear weapons and is it prepared to pay a set percentage in tax to pay for them).

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -with-legs

- particularly this bit.

This attack video tells us two things. It tells us, as does the wider Tory nervousness, that Corbyn really does have it in him to be the left’s Nigel Farage. Over the coming months and maybe years he will give Labour a bounce, make it talked about, make it cool. Everyone on Twitter will be talking about his coming victory. He will not be unseated, he will build up his movement.

And then Labour will be wiped out at the next general election. Because it does not matter how horrible and nasty and stupid this video and those that will follow it are. Unless Corbyn can prove he is a different man from the one who called terrorists “friends” and seemed sorry for Osama bin Laden on real, authentic video recordings, he will indeed by seen by the electorate as every bit as extreme as this attack ad claims.

And for variety Dan Hodges agreeing with Mr Snozers on our democracy (but probably very little else)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... earth.html

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 10:58 am

ScarletGas wrote:
yahyah wrote:I see Monbiot was tweeting that he'd be available in the short term for the media as a pro-Corbyn commentator. Bet he's not had a call.
He was on Newsnight last night YahYah "discussing" the National Anthem issue .Mind you he could not get much of a word in between Evan Davies and Jenni Russel (introduced as a labour supporting Times journalist!) showing the MSM faux outrage at such a horrendous calumny.

Russell was one of those who liked to bash Ed from time to time as well.

(including a totally fictitious tale about how he had arrived late at some shindig and then been ignored by everybody)

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:11 am

TobyLatimer wrote:See number 7 on the 'Signs of fascism' http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ScreenShot00795.jpg

Toby. I've just Tweeted that...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:20 am

yahyah wrote:I hope this isn't coming out waspishly, it isn't meant that way.

But I hope those anti-Corbyn FTN posters who have stayed away aren't feeling schadenfreude or smugness at the press hysteria.

It would be aimed at any Labour leader, a 'moderate' one would be getting it just as hard, but in different ways.

I was thinking about that yesterday...If one of the women had won, no doubt there'd have also been lots of snarky comments about her appearance on top of every thing else.

I don't mind the Royals, but I have no objection to those that dislike them...We seem to have lost the meanings of 'Choice', 'It's a free country' and 'Each to his own.'

And I'm sure Corbyn's republicanism has won him as many supporters as it's lost. Quite honsetly he could be green with yellow spots and have six legs and I wouldn't care as long as he can disrupt the Tories.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:21 am

How I wish the Shadow Cabinet would make a (collective) decision not to discuss policy at all until they have had their first conference and sorted out what they are going to say. I am already sick of the conflicting statements which make it look as though Corbyn has a totally different idea from the rest of his cabinet; that may be the case, but there's no need to discuss policy when it hasn't been agreed yet.

Time to play the Tories at their own game, media-wise - they never explain properly what they're doing, they just drone on about what Labour did wrong - and I think the Labour MPs going on these shows should just say that people must wait until firm policy decisions are made.
It is up to the party as a whole to decide policy - the manifesto for the last election is what Labour campaigned on then, not necessarily what is going to be the party's plan for the next four years. For all we know, the last manifesto could end up being binned.

Meanwhile - on the subject of national anthems - Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau is FANTASTIC. And not everyone sings it, even at the rugby.

There is a Hendrix-esque version of it on YouTube by the late great Titch Gwillym, during a gig Show produced years ago; and for those of you who are of a more classical bent there is one of Paul Robeson (who is an honorary Welshman) singing it in English with full orchestra.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:23 am

@TechnicalEphemera

Thanks for speaking your mind, TE, whether we agree or not, and sometimes we do, isn't the point. Your voice is equally worthy as any other's, possibly moreso when offering a different perspective. Much appreciated.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:29 am

At the very least, the awful dirge that is GSTQ doesn't have to be the de facto *English* national anthem. Jerusalem, please

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:37 am

ohsocynical wrote:... Quite honsetly he could be green with yellow spots and have six legs and I wouldn't care as long as he can disrupt the Tories.

What, ohso, you haven't already pulled his wings off, have you?

It makes perfect sense in my world even if not to everybody else; bringing him down to earth. I very rarely explain, neither do I repeat in the manner of Stewart Lee. But my brother has far greater skill because his words make sense even when you do miss the joke, thereby rarely causing confusion or the offence that I do.

Behaving myself now, I wish to be serious before PMQs, the only reason I'm still here tbh.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:39 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:At the very least, the awful dirge that is GSTQ doesn't have to be the de facto *English* national anthem. Jerusalem, please

How I hate that song (Jerusalem). The words are fine - the tune is unbearable.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:39 am

Good morfternoon.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:42 am

The new Labour leader said the public had had enough of "theatrical politics" and he would hold the government properly to account.

Mr Corbyn said: "I do not suspect it's going to be easy but then our job is to hold the government to account. Our job is to speak up for ordinary people in this

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:44 am

Oh - and isn't Jerusalem rather England centred (if you're thinking in terms of the UK)?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:47 am

Khalid Winter ‏@KhalidWinter 4 mins4 minutes ago

One thing #Corbyn has destroyed is any illusion of impartiality at the BBC.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:49 am

Good-morning, everyone.

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:55 am

Whether you like him or not great line from John McDonnell.

Approached and asked for an interview JMcD asks "who are you" Reply comes "I am a Sun journalist"

JMcD answers "Come, come you cant be both"

True story allegedly.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:57 am

I Vow To Thee My Country would do for me.

And a far, far better tune.

Isn't the tune to GSTQ used by other countries anyway? Let's have one that is just used by us.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 11:59 am

House of Commons Debates 15 September 2015
Tax Credits

The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Damian Hinds): I beg to move,
That the draft Tax Credits (Income Thresholds and Determination of Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 7 September, be approved.

The House divided:
Ayes 325, Noes 290.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 1543000002

Debate and the list of the MPs voting for and against the bill linked above.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:02 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:Corbyn needs to slim his offer to anti Austerity, housing and making this country a just place to live (a fair shout for everybody, everybody pays taxes, no more freeloading elite), i.e. narrow the offer, and stick to that. Repeat that message for 5 years and maybe he could win in 2020.

That would be my wish also.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:03 pm

Okay so we kick of with a veiled dig at Corbyn. May I ask that we do not forget Cameron thanking those plucky Yanks for saving us in the Battle of Britain?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:04 pm

PorFavor wrote:Oh - and isn't Jerusalem rather England centred (if you're thinking in terms of the UK)?

Um, that's why I specifically said *English* anthem

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:06 pm

Dave's trying to behave himself....

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:09 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Oh - and isn't Jerusalem rather England centred (if you're thinking in terms of the UK)?
Um, that's why I specifically said *English* anthem

Ah, sorry - I missed that, somehow. And it was such a short post, too! It was the red mist that came up when you advocated Jerusalem . . .

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:12 pm

Great performance from Corbyn - good for him.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:15 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:I Vow To Thee My Country would do for me.

And a far, far better tune.

Isn't the tune to GSTQ used by other countries anyway? Let's have one that is just used by us.

Same tune as the National Anthem only this one below is called, 'My Country, 'Tis of Thee' or, 'America'

My country, 'tis of thee,
Sweet land of liberty,
Of thee I sing;
Land where my fathers died,
Land of the pilgrims' pride,
From ev'ry mountainside
Let freedom ring!

I don't sing either of them.

I pledge allegiance to liberty and justice for all

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:16 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Great performance from Corbyn - good for him.

Solo rendition of God Save the Quing?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:18 pm

gilsey wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:Corbyn needs to slim his offer to anti Austerity, housing and making this country a just place to live (a fair shout for everybody, everybody pays taxes, no more freeloading elite), i.e. narrow the offer, and stick to that. Repeat that message for 5 years and maybe he could win in 2020.
That would be my wish also.

Agreed.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:18 pm

PorFavor wrote:Oh - and isn't Jerusalem rather England centred (if you're thinking in terms of the UK)?

Verse 6 of national anthem, might rub with some:-

6. Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:21 pm

SNP. Body punch. Good one.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:23 pm

I've not been staying away, been away from internet access.

I was more optimistic than before a couple of days ago. I'm pessimistic again.

I don't sing the national anthem. But if I were trying to be PM, I'd sing it because a PM not singing the national anthem would seem odd. I see a few Corbyn fans are now saying that Corbyn needs a media strategy. Well, we told ya. And lots of you called us "Tories".

True, if it weren't this it would probably be something else on the front page to distract from bad news (unemployment up again), but at least make them dig around a bit. Don't hand them gifts like this. Think "what would the Salmond do?" He'd have seen this coming a mile off.

It looks like DWP policy is being made on the hoof too, over the heads of the spokespeople.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:25 pm

tinybgoat wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Oh - and isn't Jerusalem rather England centred (if you're thinking in terms of the UK)?
Verse 6 of national anthem, might rub with some:-

6. Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!

Horrifying.

Oh, say can you see by the dawn’s early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars thru the perilous fight,
O’er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket’s red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

- 'Star Spangled Banner'

Bombs, flags, fighting and death

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:26 pm

For God's sake Cameron annoys me so, so much in fact that I've fired off several attacks btl on AS' blog, typos included. Am now listening quietly for the rest of the session.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 12:28 pm

He needs a media strategy sure, but that strategy won't and can't be the Blairite one of "grovel to them and feed them irrelevant gossipy titbits".

I basically share Robert's total contempt for the MSM (with, of course, honourable exceptions - but they do seem to be ever decreasing in number)

So do MILLIONS of people out there. Even many right wingers, not so privately, despise them and detest "having" to crawl to them.