Wednesday16th September 2015

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 6:00 am

Good morning.

I don't know how much truth there be in Martti Ahtisaari's claim, West 'ignored Russian offer in 2012 to have Syria's Assad step aside' (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/s ... step-aside" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) but if so, what a tragic missed opportunity. I don't see any reason why he would lie, nevertheless it does seem a case of he said, we said; interesting nonetheless even if we shan't know the full story.

“There was no question because I went back and asked him a second time,” he said, noting that Churkin had just returned from a trip to Moscow and there seemed little doubt he was raising the proposal on behalf of the Kremlin.

Ahtisaari said he passed on the message to the American, British and French missions at the UN, but he said: “Nothing happened because I think all these, and many others, were convinced that Assad would be thrown out of office in a few weeks so there was no need to do anything.”

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 6:07 am

I see Queenie has broken British records once again for longest reigning monarch, something that should figure in my life being as I gave up smoking at the same time as her achieving such status. I have lost count however.

More importantly could somebody please help me out please? I also seem to have forgotten the words to our National Anthem. Rather than sing I remain mute, thinking it more respectful than shout over it or display hypocrisy. Apparently not, hence my request. I'd hate to be thought ill of.

Oh it's only the Sun. As you were.

Postscript: I forget myself, it is supposedly unpatriotic in certain quarters not to be a royalist.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 7:50 am

Just who is Corbyn supposed to have cause hurt to ?

Radio 4 were pushing that people in the Forces would have suffered a severe insult to their fragile psyches over it.

Why would it be dissing the bravery of those who fought to protect Britain from fascism not to sing the words of an outdated piece like God Save The Queen ?
She was only a youngster at the time of the Battle of Britain, didn't fly planes or fight herself.

Who knows what Corbyn was thinking ?
Maybe he was saying aspirational prayers (you don't need to believe in a deity to do so) for peace in our world and for those still suffering as a result of what happened in the Second World War.

Just listening to Radio 4, don't know why they don't change the title to 'Anti-Corbyn propaganda Today'.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 7:53 am

WTF ? Kate Green claims opposing the welfare cap is not a Labour policy & they're just opposing the cuts

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 7:56 am

Someone wrote the other day that the Tories would be moving further to the right on 'security' as their policies hit more and more of lower-middle income voters, and their usual mantras don't work anymore.

This bashing on about 'patriotism' and the hysterical attack on Corbyn is just the beginning.
Shocking that the BBC are just doing the Tory bidding, yet again.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 8:04 am

Now Radio 4's main headline is the comment by Kate Green, and criticism by Labour peer Lord West.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 8:07 am

Heard that on Today too Toby.

But interesting that given a choice of headline about Owen Smith & Green on the welfare cap and dissing the forces & her Maj, the BBC run with the latter which is a smear about his character.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 8:20 am

Maybe Corbyn should have taken a smirking selfie like Cameron did at Mandela's funeral.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 8:32 am

FFS I give up on this country! It's now a subject to lead the news with if someone, (a republican no less), doesn't sing the national anthem? The PLP should hand their heads in shame.

Morning all.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 8:36 am

Watch out for a Tory bill making it illegal not to sing the national anthem, and republicans to be forced to wear armbands.

Seriously though, surely the debate should be about updating the national anthem to something more appropriate to 2015 ?
Hounding people because they don't sing for God to protect the Queen is surely 'political correctness gone mad' or do the right only use that when it suits them ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 8:44 am

The Tories will be all over this:

''Zero-hours contracts 'have helped to break link between unemployment and crime'''
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 02596.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe I missed it, but there doesn't seem to be any real evidence presented to back the headline.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 8:48 am

yahyah wrote:The Tories will be all over this:

''Zero-hours contracts 'have helped to break link between unemployment and crime'''
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 02596.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe I missed it, but there doesn't seem to be any real evidence presented to back the headline.

Sounds like another one that proves the old maxim that correlation isn't causation...

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 8:51 am

Morning all.

Listening to Today I was surprised that Watson and VanGaal weren't asked for their opinions on how Corbyn can avoid the inevitable disaster at PMQs. Everyone else was!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 8:54 am

This is what Kate Green said.

'Jeremy absolutely stands with and respects everybody who has fought, who has lost their life, been wounded in fighting oppressions and defending our freedoms.
For many people, the monarchy, singing the national anthem is a way of showing that respect. I think it would have been appropriate and right and respectful of people’s feelings to have done so.'

So Green thinks that you should automatically link God and the Queen and respect for those who laid down their lives ?
What about the feelings of those who do not believe in God, or the monarchy, and want to attend such events to pay their respects to those who lost their lives in the war ?

Are Labour to ignore those people or force them to comply to a right wing notion of patriotism ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 8:56 am

I see Monbiot was tweeting that he'd be available in the short term for the media as a pro-Corbyn commentator. Bet he's not had a call.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:01 am

Now Radio 4 headline 'There is growing criticism from within the Labour party about.... national anthem'

My husband has just said 'shut up' and switched it off.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:03 am

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This country is going backwards at an increasingly frightening rate.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:03 am

yahyah wrote:Someone wrote the other day that the Tories would be moving further to the right on 'security' as their policies hit more and more of lower-middle income voters, and their usual mantras don't work anymore.

This bashing on about 'patriotism' and the hysterical attack on Corbyn is just the beginning.
Shocking that the BBC are just doing the Tory bidding, yet again.

I think that was me yahyah. Good morning

As you say staying silent in quiet reflection is surely never disrespectful.

And an establishment that doesn't respect that is tending towards fascism.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:07 am

Sorry to interject again, particularly as I've read a few and not all of your posts yet, but you know me... if I have something to say then like it or not I probably shall. I may be tired or feeling unsure of myself should I not. But excuse me if this sounds like another comment all about me when it really isn't meant that way. Just allow me to ask whose experience would you rather I drew upon? I can only imagine what it be like for others.

Anyway, the National Anthem; I behave in similar fashion with the Lord's Prayer. Expect me to show appropriate decorum but please do not expect my sycophancy or expect me to lie. There may be some things I really hate about my father, putting it mildly, but there were also things for which I have a great deal of admiration and respect. One of those is that even if on occasion it were easier to admit to things I had not done, the punishment for lying, or even being suspected of it, was far worse than for the crime itself.

'And if you don't believe me, just ask the stipendiary magistrate or prosecuting officers their thoughts on my refusal to agree to stop smoking the weed just because I was asked to before sentence, even though most expected a custodial one. Perhaps you can now understand what it is about Cameron that makes me hate him so... apart from his claiming DLA for young Ivan yet denying it to those in need. It may pain me to say so, given the undoubted tragedy for which I of course commiserate but I think you get my point.

'And now where was I? ... Wtf is everybody else thinking?

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:11 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
yahyah wrote:Someone wrote the other day that the Tories would be moving further to the right on 'security' as their policies hit more and more of lower-middle income voters, and their usual mantras don't work anymore.

This bashing on about 'patriotism' and the hysterical attack on Corbyn is just the beginning.
Shocking that the BBC are just doing the Tory bidding, yet again.
I think that was me yahyah. Good morning

As you say staying silent in quiet reflection is surely never disrespectful.

And an establishment that doesn't respect that is tending towards fascism.

Juxtapose this national anthem palava with Cameron's "national security" tweet, a Conservative referencing Franco when discussing his own party's bill, and the patent disrespect of the national media for the result of a democratic election - all of it in the last four days - and it's difficult not to feel extremely pessimistic about that tendency.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:11 am

Hi NonOxCol !

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:12 am

"Decorum" is it ud. There was no lack of "decorum" in Corbyn's demeanour. The media should leave it.

But they won't because they're covering Cameron and Osborne's lies - plain simple lies - about not cutting tax credits.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:12 am

yahyah wrote:Hi NonOxCol !

Hello.

To quote Fred Trueman, I just don't know what's going off out there.

But I really, really don't like it.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:14 am

yahyah wrote:The Tories will be all over this:

''Zero-hours contracts 'have helped to break link between unemployment and crime'''
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 02596.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe I missed it, but there doesn't seem to be any real evidence presented to back the headline.

Perhaps somebody has already made this point, yahyah, but even though I haven't read your linked article yet perhaps there be some truth in it. In Tory reality far more people are in work than ever before, so no matter how you categorise it, those classed as employed, or even not unemployed if you get my drift, could well be more insecure.

Apols if anybody has already made this point.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:17 am

Calming down a moment.
Let's be 100% realistic.

If Corbyn had sung God Save The Queen what would today's bullshit media headlines have been ?

''Hypocrite Republican Marxist Security Risk Mouths Fake Respect To The Queen'' and variants of that.

Gotcha is the way of the media now.
At the very least, Labour people going onto Radio 4 in the morning should be canny enough to spot that their least utterance is going to be used as the morning's anti-Labour hourly headline.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:17 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
yahyah wrote:Someone wrote the other day that the Tories would be moving further to the right on 'security' as their policies hit more and more of lower-middle income voters, and their usual mantras don't work anymore.

This bashing on about 'patriotism' and the hysterical attack on Corbyn is just the beginning.
Shocking that the BBC are just doing the Tory bidding, yet again.
I think that was me yahyah. Good morning

As you say staying silent in quiet reflection is surely never disrespectful.

And an establishment that doesn't respect that is tending towards fascism.

Whatever next, Paul, sing our praises for Kim Yung Un (spelling ?)? Far too hasty for Google.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:20 am

See number 7 on the 'Signs of fascism' http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot00795.jpg (27.34 KiB) Viewed 10056 times

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:23 am

Morning all. Sounds like a good morning to have woken up late and missed Today.

Also sounds like a good day to observe radio silence. Respectfully, of course.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:23 am

NonOxCol wrote:... Juxtapose this national anthem palava with Cameron's "national security" tweet, a Conservative referencing Franco when discussing his own party's bill, and the patent disrespect of the national media for the result of a democratic election - all of it in the last four days - and it's difficult not to feel extremely pessimistic about that tendency.

Good to see you, NOC, but in answer may I propose... was it commemoration of D-Day landings? Those plucky Yanks, just imagine had nobody else stood up to Hitler. Am I allowed that one or does it constitute Godwin's Law?

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:23 am

I don't even sing at the football, yet I really do love Derby County. Should I have a word with myself?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:24 am

I hope this isn't coming out waspishly, it isn't meant that way.

But I hope those anti-Corbyn FTN posters who have stayed away aren't feeling schadenfreude or smugness at the press hysteria.

It would be aimed at any Labour leader, a 'moderate' one would be getting it just as hard, but in different ways.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:24 am

frightful_oik wrote:I don't even sing at the football, yet I really do love Derby County. Should I have a word with myself?

Definitely, frightful, I pity you.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:27 am

utopiandreams wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:... Juxtapose this national anthem palava with Cameron's "national security" tweet, a Conservative referencing Franco when discussing his own party's bill, and the patent disrespect of the national media for the result of a democratic election - all of it in the last four days - and it's difficult not to feel extremely pessimistic about that tendency.
Good to see you, NOC, but in answer may I propose... was it commemoration of D-Day landings? Those plucky Yanks, just imagine had nobody else stood up to Hitler. Am I allowed that one or does it constitute Godwin's Law?

Battle of Britain, mostly an air campaign.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:27 am

@yahyah

I don't know, yahyah, they may have laughed. Think about it, he could have done a John Redwood at a Welsh Assembly (?).

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:30 am

@yahyah

Don't be so smug, yahyah. We want them back don't we? ... Being as it's you I think I can get away without the emoji... please?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:33 am

Sports stars often stand in respectful silence when their national anthems are played, I've never known it to be particularly controversial or considered unpatriotic to not sing along before. Many people don't know the words. Preciousness over flags and anthems is an Americanism, just like all the other worst aspects of American culture the Atlantic Bridge lot are intent on introducing such as food banks, minimal workers rights and tent cities. It strikes me that Corbyn was just a fortuitous sidebar in a wider attempt to impose a faux patriotism on our country in emulation of our American cousins, the Tories have been trying to whip up patriotic fervour for some years now.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:36 am

Sorry if you see that as being smug UD.

It isn't. But as this is a free country you are free to think so.
The thought police aren't here, yet.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:37 am

yahyah wrote:I hope this isn't coming out waspishly, it isn't meant that way.

But I hope those anti-Corbyn FTN posters who have stayed away aren't feeling schadenfreude or smugness at the press hysteria.

It would be aimed at any Labour leader, a 'moderate' one would be getting it just as hard, but in different ways.

I was just reminding myself of the hysteria that greeted Ed Miliband's election as leader ... wall to wall back stabbing and wrong brother narratives ... stitched up by the unions .... Red Ed in their pockets. The 'moderate' supporting commentariat were disappointed then ... presumably they are on a whole other plane of despair now. It hasn't moved their way ... but I'm not sure what their way is ... They would be sour about almost anyone. Unless it was David Miliband of course.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:37 am

Good post Willow.

My other half says it is no one's business.
You stand, or sit, or stand and sing, during the anthem.
It's your right to choose, and always has been.
Surely that is, or was. the British way ?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:41 am

Shit my coffee has gone cold... still strong and black, no sugar, there's always the microwave. careful, utopian, don't overdo it you know it gets that scorched flavour if you do. Otherwise known AS THINKING ALOUD or rattling the keyboard in this case.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:42 am

yahyah wrote:Sorry if you see that as being smug UD.

It isn't. But as this is a free country you are free to think so.
The thought police aren't here, yet.

Think UD is being jokey, yahyah. He said he hoped he could get away without using an emoji.

(Note to UD - I think you might have to use the emojis - the jokes might still not be clear enough.

)

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:45 am

I'm old enough to remember the controversy around Jimi Hendrix destroying the Star Spangled Banner at Yasgur's Farm (Woodstock) in a protest against Vietnam.

Maybe Jeremy should have taken along a Strat (or a ukulele) and played it with his teeth before setting it on fire.

Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

[youtube]sjzZh6-h9fM[/youtube]

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:46 am

@yahyah

Bloody hell, yahyah, it was a joke. Surely my reference to emojis made it clear, please do not take it any other way. 'And as I say when face to face, you'll know when I am being serious, when speaking in a combative sense that is.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:46 am

Chris Bryant MP retweeted
Karl Sharro ‏@KarlreMarks 16m16 minutes ago
Outragasm: a state of mental ecstasy achieved after indulging in a sustained session of purposeful outrage on social media.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:47 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
yahyah wrote:I hope this isn't coming out waspishly, it isn't meant that way.

But I hope those anti-Corbyn FTN posters who have stayed away aren't feeling schadenfreude or smugness at the press hysteria.

It would be aimed at any Labour leader, a 'moderate' one would be getting it just as hard, but in different ways.
I'm not sure they would. The establishment looks after its own. The message is 'play our game or we'll destroy you'.

This isn't democracy. We are not living in a full democracy. We need to recognise that.

That's why Green and people like her should not play the establishment game.
It is also why Corbyn needs to make it explicit, show the game for what it is not kow tow to it.

It's going to be a difficult time, and I admit that if I had swung for the 'must have a female leader' or 'go for a moderate' as the siren calls strongly sang to me, it might be me saying 'he's a disaster'.

But there's a certain freedom that comes with having voted Corbyn, and being more and more impressed by his character.

Ed's dad said socialism foundered because Labour didn't fight for it in the 1950's.
Let's surely fight for it now, it may be our last chance for a generation.
I don't want to die with a 'moderate' Labour party endorsing a lot of what the Tories do but quibbling about the time table, or the exact cost of Tory policies.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:50 am

utopiandreams wrote:@yahyah

Bloody hell, yahyah, it was a joke. Surely my reference to emojis made it clear, please do not take it any other way. 'And as I say when face to face, you'll know when I am being serious, when speaking in a combative sense that is.

Sorry, I just didn't get it.
And also, was being tongue in cheek myself, meaning that we can still think what we like, the Tories can't look into our brains yet.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:52 am

Geraint Davies MP ‏@GeraintDaviesMP 1m1 minute ago
Cornish pasties & protected UK products will be produced in Canada if #CETA trade deal agreed @GlobalJusticeUK #TTIP

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:52 am

From AS

Unemployment up by 10,000 to 1.82m

Here are the headline unemployment figures.

Unemployment rose by 10,000 between May and July to 1.82m.
The claimant count last month rose by 1,200 to 791,700
Average earnings increased by 2.9% in the year to July, 0.5% up on the previous
month.

Yeah but Corbyn didn't sing the national anthem!!

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:56 am

A new poster has just posted this over at AS...

TrevorNudge 5m ago

The actual news is surely that wages and productivity are now booming?

This was the best case for the UK economy. Employment recovered first, and then productivity.

Who cares who sang what , at what memorial event?

Wonder who that could be?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 16 Sep, 2015 9:58 am

The Staggers ‏@TheStaggers 33m33 minutes ago
Nice try Cameron, but sickness can't just be rebranded into unemployment, says @rosieatlarge: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/we ... employment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …