Friday 25th.September 2015

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 6:29 am

Good morning, all.

Personal Independence Payment: news from government figures and Benefits and Work - and it's not good.

The success rate for all new claims for PIP stands at 48% (down from 62% last year) and it's a postcode lottery - if you live in Scarborough you have a 27% chance of getting a PIP award at the first attempt, in Scunthorpe 60 mils away it's 59%.
Last year, claimants who asked for a Mandatory Reconsideration got an award 50% of the time; now it's 22%.

The good news is that claimants who go on to appeal and have a tribunal hearing win their case 56% of the time.

PIP appeals going as far as tribunal now outnumber ESA appeals. This suggests that the PIP assessment process is so bad that many claimants are lodging appeals after the Mandatory Reconsideration stage and we know that more than half of them win their case.

ESA appeals fell because claimants were not going on to appeal - this is not because they accepted Fit For Work decisions, but because they were getting awards at the Mandatory Reconsideration stage. The numbers claiming ESA/IB have barely changed at all.

DWP Decision Makers who dealt with recons/appeals (on any benefit decisions, including sanction referrals, new claims for all benefits, and reassessment entitlement) did not have targets until last year as they were supposed to apply the law impartially.
Now they do have targets - they are required to uphold the original decision in 80% of all cases they deal with, even if they think that decision was wrong. (This came out, inadvertently, at a W&P Select Committee hearing)

The stated intention of the Mandatory Reconsideration was to cut the number of claimants going on to appeal, and with cuts to legal aid, it was assumed that claimants would just accept the decision they were given. This didn't work, and the numbers asking for a recon under the new system remained the same as under the old.
What happened is that the Decision Makers applied the law correctly, and that meant people didn't have to take their case any further as their claims were allowed in higher numbers. As getting people off ESA is the intention behind all this "reform", and as DMs were putting a spanner in the works by doing their jobs properly, they got a target.

For PIP (new claims and DLA reassessments) and ESA (post-WCA, on reassessment, or after sanction) sick and/or disabled people have about a 50% chance of getting a correct decision first time; of those who challenge a decision, only 20% will get a better result.

No wonder, then, that more and more people are going on to a full appeal and tribunal.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 7:05 am

Good morning

But before I turn to the serious business of the likes of ephemerid's post may I begin with another day and the likelihood of further reasons to doubt the abilities of our acting PM? One who desires the position for little or no more than personal repute, one who would say and do anything to pose as the vainglorious popinjay that stands before us.

Did I say popinjay? Every time anyone looks at you, Dave, no matter who they be, they shall see the man who so demeans himself to pop it in a pig. There is no doubting your love of animals, just that they be dead to satisfy your despicable urges; you even lack compassion for your fellow man. Quite frankly it is not a pleasant look, Dave, you demean us all.

Could you imagine a country where a leader could emerge who does not profess to know all the answers, Dave, one who does not indulge in unpleasantry or hurling abuse all around but to reach out and do the right thing. Should such a person exist, Dave, then had you a single ounce of decency within you, you'd withdraw and allow each and every one of us the opportunity of a fairer and just world.

But as I began, yet another day and further reason to doubt your suitability.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 8:11 am

Radio 4 reporting on this:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -force-out" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If I got the gist of the Today report right, Mandelson is saying Corbyn will need to prove his unelectability before the right wing & 'moderates' oust him.

Suppose that means doing everything they can to prove him unelectable, then saying 'we told you so'. Very bloody magnanimous of them to think its too early to oust him.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 8:19 am

yahyah wrote:Radio 4 reporting on this:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -force-out" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If I got the gist of the Today report right, Mandelson is saying Corbyn will need to prove his unelectability before the right wing & 'moderates' oust him.

Suppose that means doing everything they can to prove him unelectable, then saying 'we told you so'. Very bloody magnanimous of them to think its too early to oust him.

Morning folks,
Btl in this article is a link to an excellent explanation of why the Graun is actually the Daily Mail in disguise.
http://www.sodiumhaze.org/2015/07/26/th ... nore-them/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 8:53 am

yahyah wrote:Radio 4 reporting on this:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -force-out" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If I got the gist of the Today report right, Mandelson is saying Corbyn will need to prove his unelectability before the right wing & 'moderates' oust him.

Suppose that means doing everything they can to prove him unelectable, then saying 'we told you so'. Very bloody magnanimous of them to think its too early to oust him.

It's a bit early for panto season, so can only assume he's auditioning, surely they're not letting him on stage for party conference this year?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 9:03 am

We're always told that the voters won't go for a divided party, so why are the 'moderates' running to the press to show that Labour is divided ?
They claim to have all the political nous, yet seem to be hell bent on doing what political commentators claim shouldn't be done.

Are they going to try and portray thousands of ordinary members who voted Corbyn as Militants and replay the old battles thinking that will win them public approval ?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 9:04 am

I don't know if this has already been posted but this is actually a reasonable piece, i think

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... bour-party" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jeremy-corbyn-earthquake-labour-party

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 9:41 am

yahyah wrote:We're always told that the voters won't go for a divided party, so why are the 'moderates' running to the press to show that Labour is divided ?
They claim to have all the political nous, yet seem to be hell bent on doing what political commentators claim shouldn't be done.

Are they going to try and portray thousands of ordinary members who voted Corbyn as Militants and replay the old battles thinking that will win them public approval ?

YES!
Thank you for this post, yahyah, and thank you to others posting about the wholly spurious, contradictory articles out this morning regarding alleged Labour 'turmoil'. Like hell. I've had enough of this crap - Labour party MPs and members aren't falling apart, it just suits non-Labour supporters to shrilly insist they are.

Please, please, read the two articles I'm linking below.
Read what Wintour writes in the first article next to what Labour MP, Liam Byrne writes two days before.

Dated 23 September 2015:

Distrust of Labour on economy is existential threat, says Red Shift
Paper co-authored by shadow health secretary underlines difficulties facing Jeremy Corbyn with MPs in his administration so at odds with his ideology

by Patrick Wintour
Guardian Political Editor

Voter distrust of Labour’s use of taxpayers’ money is an existential threat to the party, and members who deny it by claiming the public are against austerity are flying in the face of evidence, according to a pamphlet co-authored by Heidi Alexander, the new shadow health secretary.

Liam Byrne, MP for Birmingham Hodge Hill, and Shabana Mahmood, the former shadow Treasury chief secretary who has refused to serve in Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet, also contributed to the pamphlet. Probably the starkest document yet to emerge from Labour’s election rubble...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ial-threat

(my bold)
Dated 21 September 2015.

Labour must rewrite Clause 4, and put inequality centre stage
Jeremy Corbyn succeeded because we Labour moderates failed to offer the party a soul. But there’s much in his message that the whole party can agree with – starting with inequality

by Liam Byrne, Labour MP
Birmingham, Hodge Hill

Jeremy Corbyn articulated better than anyone else the profound anger at spiralling inequality in our world and in our country.

Written through Corbyn’s speeches was an analysis that is now the new norm amongst international economists, but allied with a moral anger and idealism that is, and always has been, the founding passion of the Labour party. And yet the moderates, myself included, with a very healthy thirst for electability sounded all too often like, as Nye Bevan said of Hugh Gaitskell, “a desiccated calculating machine”. We simply failed to offer the party soul.

I read every word of Corbyn’s policy papers. They are impressive. ...Corbyn’s style knocked the moderates into a cocked hat. Rather than stick to the disciplines carefully schooled in Millbank Tower in the mid-90s, Corbyn quite simply led a social movement.

Of course there are big disagreements. But the list of ambitions the party shares is long. It’s the route-map we must debate. So how do the moderates regroup? First by remembering the lessons of the early 80s.

We are collectively determined to avoid an SDP-style split. There will be no defections. That’s why so many colleagues have agreed to serve on the frontbench – and why those on the backbench will honour and support them.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -moderates

(my bold)

Enough, Wintour.
Your 'Labour rubble', disingenuous, outright WRONG article, how dare you.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 9:44 am

Good-morning, everyone.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 9:46 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I don't know if this has already been posted but this is actually a reasonable piece, i think

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... bour-party" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jeremy-corbyn-earthquake-labour-party

Morning. Interesting background. But this ...

However, Kendall had started to assemble a strong campaign staff, including Matthew Doyle, a former press officer of Blair’s, and Mark Ferguson, the former editor of LabourList, who had a keen understanding of the party’s grassroots. Her real problem, it soon appeared, was her economic platform: when her campaign commissioned private polling from YouGov about party members’ views on austerity, cuts in public spending and the importance of reducing the deficit, the results were not promising. “We looked at it and thought, ‘We’re not sure we can win from here’,” one of Kendall’s advisers recalled.

really? I'd have thought if anything Corbyn's election has shown just how little understanding of the grassroots the other candidates and their teams had.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 10:04 am

Article posted today, 25 September 2015

Mandelson: it’s too early to force Jeremy Corbyn out
Private paper by Lord Mandelson says those on right of party should wait for public to decide as Labour ‘cannot be elected with Corbyn’

by Patrick Wintour and Nicholas Watt
Guardian Political writers

Labour critics of Jeremy Corbyn should consider forcing out their leader only when the majority of party members realise the public has formed a negative view of him, according to Peter Mandelson.
The former minister and adviser to Tony Blair offers his view in a private paper that circulated to political associates last week in which he urges them to dig in for the “long haul”.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -force-out

I don't care what those two think, or what you think they think, Wintour & Watt.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 10:15 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I don't know if this has already been posted but this is actually a reasonable piece, i think

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... bour-party" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jeremy-corbyn-earthquake-labour-party

Morning. Interesting background. But this ...

However, Kendall had started to assemble a strong campaign staff, including Matthew Doyle, a former press officer of Blair’s, and Mark Ferguson, the former editor of LabourList, who had a keen understanding of the party’s grassroots. Her real problem, it soon appeared, was her economic platform: when her campaign commissioned private polling from YouGov about party members’ views on austerity, cuts in public spending and the importance of reducing the deficit, the results were not promising. “We looked at it and thought, ‘We’re not sure we can win from here’,” one of Kendall’s advisers recalled.
really? I'd have thought if anything Corbyn's election has shown just how little understanding of the grassroots the other candidates and their teams had.

Ferguson understands Labour's grassroots about as much as I understand War and Peace in the original Russian. Mind you, compared with Wintour and Watt .......

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 10:16 am

Wintour and Watt. The duo that require the acronym treated a la DFH. Apologies to pandas, but I believe it's WWF.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 10:25 am

VW - Ministers must come clean on when they were first told about emissions scandal - Lilian Greenwood

Lilian Greenwood MP, Labour’s Shadow Transport Secretary, responding to reports that UK Ministers were warned about the VW emissions scandal, said:
“Ministers must come clean and admit when they were first told about the diesel emissions scandal. ‎The International Council on Clean Transportation, the body which helped to expose the problem, warned a year ago that dangerously high levels of nitrogen oxide emissions were not confined to America. It is unacceptable that the Government waited this long to take action.

“Over recent days the Department for Transport has been forced to perform a series of screeching ‎u-turns. After initially saying that only the European Commission could conduct an investigation, Patrick McLoughlin has been forced to backtrack, but after this latest revelation there can be little faith in the Department’s response.

“Poor air quality is a growing problem in our towns and cities but the Government is in chaos on this issue, and it is becoming increasingly clear that real leadership was needed on this issue at least a year ago.”

September 25, 2015 (9:37 am)
http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1298361 ... -they-were" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 10:25 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I don't know if this has already been posted but this is actually a reasonable piece, i think

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... bour-party" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jeremy-corbyn-earthquake-labour-party

Was just about to say the same, Paul, and from Patrick Wintour and Nicholas Watt too. It does make one wonder though, just how much outside of the Westminster bubble Andy actually is/was, does it not?

I see one of the authors at least has got people's backs up already, but I thought this contrasted with that earlier article that cJA quoted... and seemed to express parliamentary viewpoints rather than their own, not that I'm suggesting they're any more forgivable.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 10:36 am

Drax - Ministers must come clean on whether they are abandoning all efforts to secure investment in clean energy - Lisa Nandy

Lisa Nandy MP, Labour’s Shadow Energy Secretary, responding to news that Drax power station has dropped its carbon capture and storage scheme because of Government policy, said:

“With the only new nuclear power station delayed, new onshore wind farms being blocked, solar support being slashed by almost 90 per cent, and the Government’s carbon capture and storage strategy now unravelling too, Ministers must come clean on whether they are abandoning all efforts to secure investment in clean energy in this country.

“It beggars belief that the government is letting its climate change strategy fall apart just weeks before the landmark global climate change summit in Paris.”

September 25, 2015 (10:03 am)

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1298367 ... ether-they" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, Nandy, it's like this...Tory Chancellor Osborne has a fossil fuel portfolio and someone told him there's CH4 (methane) to be had under my dwelling in the West Midlands. It's End Days fossil fuel extraction, hydraulic fracturing (fracking), Nandy. If Osborne's diesel tankers roll in non-stop with what remains of our water supply in those tankers and other fracking equipage, I'm not the one gonna have a bad day.

Thank you for flagging up current Tory government's incoherent and inadequate energy policy plans.

ScarletGas · Post by **ScarletGas** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 10:39 am

Mandelson says "In choosing Corbyn instead of Ed Miliband the general public feel we are just putting two fingers up to them exchanging one loser for an even worse one. We cannot be elected with Corbyn as leader"

Given his dubious business activities and his predilection for cosying up to Russian oligarchs I do wonder here he gets his knowledge from.

I guess the question must be....How many members of the general public have you met in the last week Lord Mandelson?

As for an acronym for Watt and Wintour what about Tourwatt (pronounced Twat)

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 10:40 am

utopiandreams wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I don't know if this has already been posted but this is actually a reasonable piece, i think

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... bour-party" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jeremy-corbyn-earthquake-labour-party
Was just about to say the same, Paul, and from Patrick Wintour and Nicholas Watt too. It does make one wonder though, just how much outside of the Westminster bubble Andy actually is/was, does it not?

I see one of the authors at least has got people's backs up already, but I thought this contrasted with that earlier article that cJA quoted... and seemed to express parliamentary viewpoints rather than their own, not that I'm suggesting they're any more forgivable.

Andy was from the bubble, I don't think he ever pretended otherwise. The point is, he actually recognised that was a problem.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 10:50 am

Evenaftmorn....

So....back to an obsession of mine....

If Pharo and Pyatt are defended by a legal team funded by Murkydochia, who in turn are using the defence that 't'were the higher-up Murkydochians wot dunnit', are they (Newcorpse/Murkydochia) defending themselves against themselves? (With, of course, vast amounts of public resource in between - CPS/police time etc)

Giving evidence at the trial of two Sun journalists accused of corrupting a police officer, Detective Supt Mark Kandiah said that News International handed over material about payments on the assumption that its co-operation would ensure it avoided court.
Gerson Zweifach, general counsel at NI's parent company, News Corp, had warned detectives that a corporate prosecution of its UK subsidiary could "kill the corporation."
Instead, News International handed over material that led to Chris Pharo, the Sun's news editor, and Jamie Pyatt, Thames Valley reporter, sitting in the dock of the Old Bailey.

https://www.byline.com/project/24/article/422

...and, as we haven't had this for a while, a prescient piece from 20 years ago....

https://vimeo.com/57263481

(Apols to mods...but, unbelievably, this clip seems to have disappeared from youtube

so had to link 'Vimeo')

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 10:55 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I don't know if this has already been posted but this is actually a reasonable piece, i think

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... bour-party" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jeremy-corbyn-earthquake-labour-party

It is a good piece, although the writer makes two statements about Cromwell that are both wrong. Trotsky called Cromwell the true representative of the new bourgouise class not a revolutionary, and the painted chamber was destroyed in 1851 after being gutted in the fire of 1834. The, ahem, cavalier approach to facts and spin does make me question the rest of the article a bit, but maybe thats just me.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 10:55 am

And as far as the ever more ludicrous and puffed up Mandy is concerned, Jez should just ask as J V Dzhughashvilli did of the Pontiff - how many divisions can he call on?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 10:58 am

Express Crusade: NHS Junior Doctor Crisis - sign our petition
BRITAIN is facing a crisis, a crisis which threatens to de-stabilise our NHS and put thousands of lives at risk.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/607716 ... n-petition

It is the Express, but as they say, every little helps...

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 11:03 am

citizenJA wrote:
Drax - Ministers must come clean on whether they are abandoning all efforts to secure investment in clean energy - Lisa Nandy

Lisa Nandy MP, Labour’s Shadow Energy Secretary, responding to news that Drax power station has dropped its carbon capture and storage scheme because of Government policy, said:

“With the only new nuclear power station delayed, new onshore wind farms being blocked, solar support being slashed by almost 90 per cent, and the Government’s carbon capture and storage strategy now unravelling too, Ministers must come clean on whether they are abandoning all efforts to secure investment in clean energy in this country.

“It beggars belief that the government is letting its climate change strategy fall apart just weeks before the landmark global climate change summit in Paris.”

September 25, 2015 (10:03 am)

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1298367 ... ether-they" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, Nandy, it's like this...Tory Chancellor Osborne has a fossil fuel portfolio and someone told him there's CH4 (methane) to be had under my dwelling in the West Midlands. It's End Days fossil fuel extraction, hydraulic fracturing (fracking), Nandy. If Osborne's diesel tankers roll in non-stop with what remains of our water supply in those tankers and other fracking equipage, I'm not the one gonna have a bad day.

Thank you for flagging up current Tory government's incoherent and inadequate energy policy plans.

Don't forget the nice big fracking contracts for pa-in-law...

David Howell
Perhaps the best place to start is with George Osborne's own family. His father-in-law, the Conservative peer Lord Howell is a lobbyist for the fossil fuel industry. He combines his role as president of the British Institute of Energy Economics (sponsored by Shell and BP amongst others) with the role of energy minister at the Foreign Office. He is notoriously skeptical of renewable energy sources and the sponsors of his institute stand to gain dramatically from the lucrative tax break being handed to them by his son-in-law.

As well as the BIEE lobbying interest that has been widely reported in the press, Howell is also the chairman of another energy lobbying group. In the Parliamentary register of members interests he is listed as chairman of Windsor Energy Group. On the Windsor Energy Linkedin profile (registration necessary) they boast about "building bridges between the public and the private sectors" and brag about their lack of openness and transparency - "discussions are kept non-attributable to allow full and frank exchanges of views". The financial backers of Howell's energy lobbying group listed on their webpage include the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Chinese government, various petrochemical companies including British Gas, British Petroleum, Shell, Marathon Oil, Kuwait Petroleum, Petrofac, PDVSA, and even NATO!

It is absolutely clear that many of the clients of Howell's lobbying groups stand to benefit enormously from his son-in-law's actions.

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk ... rowne.html

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 11:03 am

Good morfternoon.

Say "N"? (Ukip conference - see photo on the Politics Live Blog, Guardian).

Almost Python-esque.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 11:06 am

Any defection rumours there?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 11:07 am

: Right To Buy Deal.jpg (57.32 KiB) Viewed 9245 times

It's crap basically. Government avoids any scrutiny and accountability and dumps on local authorities big time.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 11:25 am

Good morning all,
Steve Bell's cartoon today is worth a look:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... na-cartoon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 11:29 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Any defection rumours there?

Not unless you count Nigel Farage himself who reckons that Ukip is now not his priority (although, in any case, I think that Nigel Farage has always been Nigel Farage's priority). Oh, and Paul Dacre is apparently not best pleased.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 11:42 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Right To Buy Deal.jpg
It's crap basically. Government avoids any scrutiny and accountability and dumps on local authorities big time.

It's far beyond crap, rr2, it's dumping on everybody and everything from a great height. Surely this cannot be legal, but as was proved during passage of the Health and Social Care Bill, proper process or procedure is not a prerequisite for this lot. There has to be a way to stop them, it's supposed to be a fucking democracy whatever the result of the recent election. I'd call it criminal and deserving of judicial review or even prosecution of the guilty parties.

As for scrutiny and accountability, there is none. Take the DWP or disposal of public assets such as those mentioned here yesterday or like those that Gove signed over to private interests at our expense, forget keeping records they'd rather hide from public view.

<tory>Much better we inform you of our realities</tory>. The sad fact is that far too many appear to believe their every word.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 12:01 pm

PorFavor wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Any defection rumours there?
Not unless you count Nigel Farage himself who reckons that Ukip is now not his priority (although, in any case, I think that Nigel Farage has always been Nigel Farage's priority). Oh, and Paul Dacre is apparently not best pleased.

There is stuff about two rival "no" campaigns appearing now. UKIP are stuffed without Farage, but could they be with him as well?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 12:08 pm

Have just been listening to the meat-eating discussion on Daily Politics and have to say that I was fully behind George Monbiot. That other guy was ridiculous with the extremes of his argument. Granted I do not support whoever the vegan shadow minister is and her comments, but George was not saying anything of the like.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 12:13 pm

William Dartmouth MEP is speaking now. He starts with Labour, saying that they are now looking like a cartoon. The deputy leader and leader are even called Tom and Jerry, he says.

(I suppose he wins the prize for being the first person of the conference season to try that rather feeble joke. I fear that by the time the Tories have left Manchester we will be even more sick of it.) (Politics Live, Guardian)

Now why do I think of Pinky and Perky? Something must have happened recently to make that seem apposite.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 12:21 pm

He [Nigel Farage] says Ukip got 4m votes at the election. He would have “bitten his arm off” for that result, he says. The party can be proud of what it achieved.

The fact that this delivered just one MP shows how important electoral reform is, he says. But he says that he is not holding his breathe[sic] in the expectation of this happening. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)

Oh, and I was so hoping that he would.

Edited to remove a stray capital "I" (which is indistinguishable, to me, from a lower case "l") but it's gone now - whichever it was.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 12:22 pm

Ah well, it comes to something when Farage is no longer the laughing stock, hey? Yes I'm looking at you, Dave.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 12:47 pm

RobertSnozers wrote: What's Dacre displeased about? And can we bottle it?

Er - nothing, over and above the usual. Sorry - I got my Mail and Express "luminaries" confused.

Anyhow - it's Richard Desmond, and it's to do with this -

According to Lucy Fisher in the Times (paywall), Ukip has angered one of its most important donors and supports, the Express owner Richard Desmond.

The newspaper proprietor Richard Desmond was “furious” after part of his £1 million donation to Ukip was allegedly used to pay back a six-figure loan from another wealthy individual.

Senior party sources claimed yesterday that before the general election in May, Andrew Reid, the party’s then treasurer, called in a loan of about £200,000 that he had made to Ukip, subsequently repaid to him by the party.

The decision, made after Mr Desmond, owner of the Express titles, pledged the seven-figure sum, left him “unimpressed”, according to party figures. Mr Reid, a millionaire solicitor who has stepped down from his party role, is reported to have disappeared from Ukip circles, although he was reportedly spotted with the leader Nigel Farage this month at a vintage car event in Sussex. (Politics Live, Guardian)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 1:07 pm

UKIP conference audience look satisfied.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 1:22 pm

Everyone's air quality okay?
Are we all breathing?
I'm concerned about people more worried about their VW re-sale value than the pollution it's emitting.
I really am.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 1:25 pm

citizenJA wrote:Everyone's air quality okay?
Are we all breathing?
I'm concerned about people more worried about their VW re-sale value than the pollution it's emitting.
I really am.

We've got the sweet air of the Welsh hills and westerlies coming off Cardigan Bay, so pollution not a problem as there are so few cars.

But can imagine it is a real problem in large towns and cities.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 1:33 pm

yahyah wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Everyone's air quality okay?
Are we all breathing?
I'm concerned about people more worried about their VW re-sale value than the pollution it's emitting.
I really am.

We've got the sweet air of the Welsh hills and westerlies coming off Cardigan Bay, so pollution not a problem as there are so few cars.

But can imagine it is a real problem in large towns and cities.

I'm not so sure about that. I read a while back, that pollution traced to NewYork crosses the Atlantic.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 1:35 pm

Children in the Los Angeles region have substantially healthier lungs than they did just 20 years ago, thanks largely to multibillion-dollar efforts to clean up southern California's infamous smog and soot. In landmark research published Wednesday, University of Southern California scientists found that kids in the region are breathing better than they did in 1994, and the percentage of kids with abnormally poor lung function dropped by more than half.

The scientists reached a dramatic conclusion that they hope reverberates globally: Reducing air pollution improves people's health.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... vironment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I visited that region as a child; some days we wouldn't be allowed outside because of the poor air quality.

Left: A smoggy haze lingers over the L.A. skyline in the 1980s. Right: The city's air is clear after a winter storm in March, 2015.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 1:36 pm

Whatever the Yanks are sending us sure smells sweet though OhSo, or maybe it gets dumped on Ireland first.

Also, we have species of lichens growing abundantly here that my biologist neighbour says are a clear sign of lack of pollution.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 1:48 pm

yahyah wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Everyone's air quality okay?
Are we all breathing?
I'm concerned about people more worried about their VW re-sale value than the pollution it's emitting.
I really am.

We've got the sweet air of the Welsh hills and westerlies coming off Cardigan Bay, so pollution not a problem as there are so few cars.

But can imagine it is a real problem in large towns and cities.

I live in the Potteries, yahyah.
Stoke.
Breaching acceptable levels of pollution on a regular basis.
29 April 2015

The UK government must prepare and consult with the public on a new air quality plan aimed at meeting EU nitrogen dioxide limits by the end of 2015, the Supreme Court ruled...Defra’s current 2011 plans would see the UK achieve compliance with the NO2 limit values in the EU ambient Air Quality Directive by 2030 in several zones, including London, West Midlands and West Yorkshire. This is 20 years after the original EU legal deadline of January 2010. Furthermore, the Supreme Court has also made a mandatory order for Defra to prepare new air quality plans by no later than 31 December 2015 aimed at meeting the NO2 objectives.

http://www.airqualitynews.com/2015/04/2 ... lity-plan/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(my bold)
That's the stuff coming out of diesels, NO2.
Government don't care.
Industry don't care.
Decades to do something different.
But no.
So, there's a UK Supreme Court ruling giving current Tory government until 31 December 2015 to sort it out.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 1:49 pm

yahyah wrote:Whatever the Yanks are sending us sure smells sweet though OhSo, or maybe it gets dumped on Ireland first.

Also, we have species of lichens growing abundantly here that my biologist neighbour says are a clear sign of lack of pollution.

I love Wales.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 2:17 pm

citizenJA wrote:
yahyah wrote:Whatever the Yanks are sending us sure smells sweet though OhSo, or maybe it gets dumped on Ireland first.

Also, we have species of lichens growing abundantly here that my biologist neighbour says are a clear sign of lack of pollution.
I love Wales.

I love Wales too, JA, indeed lived in North Wales for a couple of years in my teens and have visited frequently ever since. As for clean air, yahyah, couldn't agree more, so much so that it does wonders for your sense of smell.

I cannot remember whether it were Llanrwst or Betwys, but we were staying at a small hotel, eldest must have been about 5 and was wandering about the place in the early hours waking everybody up. He was used to rising after I got home from working all hours. I digress.

One morning, before mobile phones, we were sat in a cafe when both my wife and I smelled gas. So concerned were we that we alerted fellow customers and the proprietors,which struck them as odd since they were all electric. Nevertheless they checked to no avail as it were only the pair of us. Strangely enough when we returned home several days later we found that our drive had been dug up whilst we were away. According to our friends that had fed the cats, the Gas Board had dug up our drive because of a gas leak that very same morning.

So as I say, I do not believe in freak events, so the air must have been exceptionally clean for us to have smelled it.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 2:26 pm

The House of Lords should be 'sealed up and gassed,' says Katie Hopkins

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 566.html-0

Never thought I'd see the day I agreed with her.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 2:34 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
The House of Lords should be 'sealed up and gassed,' says Katie Hopkins

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 566.html-0
Never thought I'd see the day I agreed with her.

That's a bit harsh, ohso, I never imagined likening you to that awful Hopkins woman... and excuse me if that sounds misogynist but she is a woman, isn't she. Which reminds me... Did I ever mention the time my wife and I smelled gas?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 2:39 pm

ohsocynical wrote:... I'm not so sure about that. I read a while back, that pollution traced to NewYork crosses the Atlantic.

Sod the Saharan dust, ohso, I'm looking forward to that sweet smell of cannabis drifting in from Morocco.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 2:46 pm

Look, it's a Guardian below the line comment just like a lot of Guardian below the line comments I've been reading about since VW was outed for the fraudulent criminal outfit it is.

And not just VW but all of them on their imaginary MPG's figures ?

Here's my latest response to that comment.

Miles Per Gallon figures?
WTF????

We've found out VW has lied for years and committed criminal fraud allowing millions of vehicles on the road producing more pollution than they claimed their diesel automobiles emitted (and continue to emit) into the atmosphere we all have use.

This is what the pollution is composed of and what it can do:

(SO2) is generated from the sulfur present in diesel fuel. Sulfur dioxide is a colorless toxic gas with a characteristic, irritating odor. Oxidation of sulfur dioxide produces sulfur trioxide which is the precursor of sulfuric acid which, in turn, is responsible for the sulfate particulate matter emissions. Sulfur oxides have a profound impact on environment being the major cause of acid rains.

Carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbons (HC), and aldehydes are generated in the exhaust as the result of incomplete combustion of fuel. When engines operate in enclosed spaces, such as underground mines, buildings under construction, tunnels or warehouses, carbon monoxide can accumulate in the ambient atmosphere and cause headaches, dizziness and lethargy. Under the same conditions, hydrocarbons and aldehydes cause eye irritation and choking sensations. Hydrocarbons and aldehydes are major contributors to the characteristic diesel smell. Hydrocarbons also have a negative environmental effect, being an important component of smog.

Nitrogen oxides (NOx) are generated from nitrogen and oxygen under the high pressure and temperature conditions in the engine cylinder. NOx consist mostly of nitric oxide (NO) and a small fraction of nitrogen dioxide (NO2). Nitrogen dioxide is very toxic. NOx emissions are also a serious environmental concern because of their role in the smog formation.

But, but...what will this mean to my MPG?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 2:47 pm

Speaking of freak events, my wife held them in higher regard than myself; I just call it coincidence. As it happens I was enthusiastically greeted by a very attractive and not so young lady on my way into a local supermarket this morning.

Permission to call it what you will, should I pop to the supermarket next Friday morning. Which reminds me, I used to get lambasted for my indiscretions during my wife's dreams. I simply had no excuses whatsoever for them!

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 25 Sep, 2015 2:50 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
The House of Lords should be 'sealed up and gassed,' says Katie Hopkins

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 566.html-0
Never thought I'd see the day I agreed with her.

We need a reformed second chamber, that's certainly true, but there are some really good people in the Lords, amongst the over privileged scroungers. I think I preferred it when thick celebs didn't "do" politics.