Friday 19th September 2014

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 7:10 am

Morning all (and good night to those who stayed up)

Scotland voted 55% No, 45% Yes. Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 7:14 am

Spacedone wrote:Morning all (and good night to those who stayed up)

Scotland voted 55% No, 45% Yes. Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom.

Fancy seeing you here.

Good morning (again), everyone.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 7:20 am

I'm delighted the Union remains & by such a clear majority.

It's all bad news for Ed Miliband however - all Labours fault if the Union had been lost & all the reason the Union remains is all down to the Cons

Can we now get back to concentrating on kicking out the Cons instead of fighting with each other - please ?

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 7:26 am

Many thanks to those who stayed the course, I gave up the ghost at 2.30, I blame Nick Robinson.

I echo PK, Labour have rightly concentrated elsewhere lately, now it's time to down to the business of May 2015.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 7:33 am

Morning all.

So now we know. I hope our Lords and Masters * realise this is not a time for exultation, as the real work starts here; we need to rebuild consensus in this nation, start working together again rather than fighting each other. I think it is obvious that neither the Tories nor the Liberals are up to that task, so we need to ensure that Labour are by fighting to get them into office next year and then ...ahem, gently reminding them why we did that if they begin to stray from the path.

* Well, they think they are.

Post by **refitman** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 7:38 am

Morning all. Big thanks to LadyC, HindleA and PfY for their top work last night. Hope they are now getting some well deserved rest.

Labour lead at 2 points on Yougov:

Latest YouGov / The Sun results 18th Sept -

Con 33%, (no change)
Lab 35%, (-1)
LD 8%, (no change)
UKIP 14%; (+1)

APP -21 (+3)

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 7:41 am

CNN giving it 110%.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 7:50 am

RobertSnozers wrote:Doesn't Farage look like an irrelevance, desperately trying to get his mug on TV?

Bit part player, nothing else. Unfortunately he doesn't realise it.

And how good is Sarah Brown? Her fathers daughter no doubt.

Post by **refitman** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 7:53 am

Also, this vote means that the Labour conference is still on.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 7:58 am

pk1 wrote:
Can we now get back to concentrating on kicking out the Cons instead of fighting with each other - please ?

Amen to that!!

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 8:04 am

pk1 wrote:I'm delighted the Union remains & by such a clear majority.

It's all bad news for Ed Miliband however - all Labours fault if the Union had been lost & all the reason the Union remains is all down to the Cons

Can we now get back to concentrating on kicking out the Cons instead of fighting with each other - please ?

Morning PK and yes I agree. Lovely to see you.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 8:14 am

It's been a pleasure. I don't think I'll get any sleep until I know how the voting went in the Highland area, so will stick around unless I just go zonk...

Farage has deeply peed me off, not that he needs do more than breathe to do that.

Highland (A' Ghàidhealtachd) vote greatly delayed due to serious accident blocking the A9: 165976
Yes: 78069
No: 87739

And that is the lot.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 8:22 am

Final final count:

Yes 1,617,989 (45% not exact)
No 2,001,926 (55% not exact)
All 32 seats declared.

And I think that's oidhche mhath, from me. Thanks for all your company.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 8:25 am

LadyCentauria wrote:Final final count:

Yes 1,617,989 (45% not exact)
No 2,001,926 (55% not exact)
All 32 seats declared.

And I think that's oidhche mhath, from me. Thanks for all your company.

Thank you. Have a good rest.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 8:31 am

Why would the Syria vote have been an English only issue?
NNick Robinson you really are a plonker.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 8:32 am

On a more parochial note -

Mike Hancock has resigned his LibDem Party membership (well, he did it a few days ago, apparently, but we're only hearing about it now). I heard the news very much earlier on the radio this morning through the mists of sleep, but the TV news has just reminded me. That gets the LibDem Party off the hook with regard to disciplinary action (which they've delayed and delayed).

Edited to add an "f"

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 8:33 am

Highlands result makes it 55.3% No, 44.7% Yes.

Anyone else got funny ears this morning from having radio ear plugs in all night ?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 8:34 am

yahyah wrote:Highlands result makes it 55.3% No, 44.7% Yes.

Anyone else got funny ears this morning from having radio ear plugs in all night ?

Er . . . . no.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 8:34 am

pk1 wrote:I'm delighted the Union remains & by such a clear majority.

It's all bad news for Ed Miliband however - all Labours fault if the Union had been lost & all the reason the Union remains is all down to the Cons

Can we now get back to concentrating on kicking out the Cons instead of fighting with each other - please ?

Welcome back PK.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 8:44 am

Morning all.

Kudos to all who stayed the course -- my internet connection was playing up last night and I couldn't be bothered to reboot my hub so gave up about midnight.

I see the Gods spoke last night in the early hours...quite what their message was I couldn't say. Suffice to say my DAB radio shows "1" rather than the right time now...

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 8:49 am

Morning all

Just catching up.

What could be better than sitting in bed, eating a croissant, washing it down with strong tea and reading the referendum coverage on FTN.

Thanks all...You did good!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 8:52 am

Good morning all

No great surprise seeing the way the momentum was going and the pollsters gave a pretty good account of themselves

Rather worrying to see Farage bellowing on and trying to awake negative English nationalism as a response to the Scottish situation

There seems to be a lack of understanding about how the UK works and the irrelevance of the West Lothian question with regards to Westminster.

Westminster is a UK Parliament and so there is no valid argument to stop all UK MPs voting on legislation put before it.

The issue is that the English have not responded to devolution by having any coherent view on what we want. There is no drive for either regional assemblies or an English Parliament - Labour had proposals for these but dropped them after the North East referendum debâcle

We should stop demonising Scottish MPs and trying to exclude them when the problem is that the English have no answer to what we want to have

This is all a consequence of devolution, and was foreseen in the 90s - I hope now we will have a proper response. The one thing I agree with Farage on is that we need to have a more thoughtful, and unrushed decision on how the UK functions in the world of devolution.

The ball is now in the court of the English - the other constituent countries are now starting to have a clearer view of where they want to go - devolution (and federalism?) within the UK - what is it we want? And how do we achieve it whilst creating intra-regional tensions in England?

Interesting times....

minch · Post by **minch** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 8:53 am

I woke up expecting delayed counts and its all over!
So after all the worries the polls were about right.
I notice that suddenly the talk is all about reducing the voice of Scottish MPs in Westminster (I'm not commenting on whether this is right or wrong) rather than all the other pledges.
The best comment I have read is that now we should move on to the next task which, as Cameron said, is to remove the effing tories.

PS can all you clever people check to see what bad news was announced yesterday (they must have tried to hide something)!

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 8:55 am

RobertSnozers wrote:Morning all. Genuine commiserations to those of our FTN family who supported independence. I hope the Westminster parties uphold the promise of more devolution, and that any divisions in Scottish society can be quickly healed.

Gutted.

Hey ho, that's democracy......

My prediction -
Cameron will take all the credit for this; Cameron will not honour the "Vow"; Cameron will only devolve any power from Westminster to the other countries or the regions if it takes power away from Labour; Cameron will not allow Wales or NI more devolution; Cameron will refuse any autonomy for England; Cameron will find a way to punish those who dared to support Scottish Independence.

I just hope that the (nearly) half of the country that wanted independence will be calm enough to negotiate and fight their corner without any serious trouble - my fear is that they will not get what has been promised and they will not take that lying down.

As with so many other issues, Labour now needs to speak up and tell us what they will do if they win the GE. There has been far too much faffing about and far too little progress on policy. I await the conference with interest; and although I will continue to campaign for Labour locally, I intend to cancel my membership (even if they win) unless I see some progress on the issues I care about.

I want to express my regret to anyone I offended with my posts yesterday - however, that apology is confined to any upset caused, as I am still of the view that some of the accusations made against the Yes campaigners were unwarranted and unnecessarily pejorative.

Today will be interesting. I am much more concerned now about possible social unrest than I was before the vote. I hope that I am wrong about Cameron; but history shows how badly Scotland has been treated in the past, with successive governments since WW1 backing out of various deals, and I doubt that Cameron is the man to make good his promises. He hasn't done so once so far.....

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:01 am

minch wrote:I woke up expecting delayed counts and its all over!
So after all the worries the polls were about right.
I notice that suddenly the talk is all about reducing the voice of Scottish MPs in Westminster (I'm not commenting on whether this is right or wrong) rather than all the other pledges.
The best comment I have read is that now we should move on to the next task which, as Cameron said, is to remove the effing tories.

PS can all you clever people check to see what bad news was announced yesterday (they must have tried to hide something)!

Mike Hancock quit the Lib Dems, that looks like the referendum was used as cover.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:05 am

Ephemerid

A considered response and I, like you, have no trust for the Tories and Cameron especially

The issue is that under FPTP the Tories are an English Party and have no interest in anywhere else. They will attempt to consolidate their power in England and I see them trying to play off one country against another. That is their goal now I think and we can see them and Farage jockeying for that

The only party that can credibly deliver the necessary change are Labour as the only party with significant representation in all the parts (NI being the difference here and I hope one day we can see progress over there) but they have often shown a lack of bravery in following through when faced with the massed establishment

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:06 am

Apologies to everyone who had already reported on the Mike Hancock resignation. That's what you get for reading the posts in reverse chronological order. I've caught up now.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:07 am

ephemerid wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:Morning all. Genuine commiserations to those of our FTN family who supported independence. I hope the Westminster parties uphold the promise of more devolution, and that any divisions in Scottish society can be quickly healed.
Gutted.

Hey ho, that's democracy......

My prediction -
Cameron will take all the credit for this; Cameron will not honour the "Vow"; Cameron will only devolve any power from Westminster to the other countries or the regions if it takes power away from Labour; Cameron will not allow Wales or NI more devolution; Cameron will refuse any autonomy for England; Cameron will find a way to punish those who dared to support Scottish Independence.

I just hope that the (nearly) half of the country that wanted independence will be calm enough to negotiate and fight their corner without any serious trouble - my fear is that they will not get what has been promised and they will not take that lying down.

As with so many other issues, Labour now needs to speak up and tell us what they will do if they win the GE. There has been far too much faffing about and far too little progress on policy. I await the conference with interest; and although I will continue to campaign for Labour locally, I intend to cancel my membership (even if they win) unless I see some progress on the issues I care about.

I want to express my regret to anyone I offended with my posts yesterday - however, that apology is confined to any upset caused, as I am still of the view that some of the accusations made against the Yes campaigners were unwarranted and unnecessarily pejorative.

Today will be interesting. I am much more concerned now about possible social unrest than I was before the vote. I hope that I am wrong about Cameron; but history shows how badly Scotland has been treated in the past, with successive governments since WW1 backing out of various deals, and I doubt that Cameron is the man to make good his promises. He hasn't done so once so far.....

Morning Ephemerid

Great to see you still here

I'm pragmatically glad the Union is staying together, but a little radical part of me is sad we're not embarking on a constitutional adventure in the way you outlined so elegantly.

For me the weird thing is we're exactly where Dave said we couldn't be, with a promise of Devo Max.

He mustn't be allowed to get away with that twisting and turning.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:08 am

The people of Scotland have spoken. It is a clear result. They have kept our country of four nations together.

Like millions of other people, I'm delighted. It would have broken my heart to see our United Kingdom come to an end.

And that sentiment was shared by people not just across our country, but also around the world - because of what we've achieved together in the past and what we can do together in the future.

So now it is time for our United Kingdom to come together, and to move forward.

We have a chance - a great opportunity - to change the way the British people are governed, and change it for the better.

Political leaders on all sides must work together to advance the interests of people in Scotland, as well as those in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Because it is absolutely right that a new and fair settlement for Scotland should be accompanied by a new and fair settlement that applies to all parts of the United Kingdom.

I have long believed that a crucial part missing from this national discussion is England.

We have heard the voice of Scotland - and now the millions of voices of England must not go ignored.

So, just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax, spending and welfare, so too England, as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues - and all this must take place in tandem with, and at the same pace as, the settlement for Scotland.

This referendum has caught the imagination of people across the whole of our United Kingdom.

Now we must look forward, and turn this into the moment when everyone - whichever way they voted - comes together to build a better, brighter future for our entire United Kingdom.

And I want to know what you think - so please leave a message on my Facebook page and tell me your views on these crucial matters.

Yours,

David Cameron

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:16 am

Snowballs chance in hell all of this constitutional reform is at the firm planning stages before the run up to the general election.

Agree with the Facebook comment by RS

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:16 am

@PaulfromYorkshire

Yes - DevoDave is a genius, isn't he?

Ooh - Ed Miliband on a clip of a "No" celebration. Looking particularly scrumptious as it happens. He's due to give a speech any moment now (BBC TV - News24).

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:17 am

Allegra Stratton ‏@BBCAllegra 8m
Owen Paterson says this morning G Brown's role in handover of powers to Scots "unacceptable" and maintaining Barnett formula "unjust".

He's going to be a thorn in Dave's side now ... and probably relishing the prospect of getting a bit of his own back. No awareness of his own part in making not just millions of Scots - but also so many in rUK - sick with disgust at the filthy, destructive and greed based politics we've suffered for so long.

Morning all. Fell asleep with the small TV still on at about 2.30am. The outcome seemed pretty set even at that early stage according to the commentators.

Very tired this morning. Mixture of some relief ... and dread at the mess Cameron will now make of further devolution in the UK ... and how they will try to use and abuse the process to provide more opportunities and protection for his party and those it favours.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:17 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
ephemerid wrote:Gutted.

Hey ho, that's democracy......

My prediction -
Cameron will take all the credit for this; Cameron will not honour the "Vow"; Cameron will only devolve any power from Westminster to the other countries or the regions if it takes power away from Labour; Cameron will not allow Wales or NI more devolution; Cameron will refuse any autonomy for England; Cameron will find a way to punish those who dared to support Scottish Independence.

I just hope that the (nearly) half of the country that wanted independence will be calm enough to negotiate and fight their corner without any serious trouble - my fear is that they will not get what has been promised and they will not take that lying down.

As with so many other issues, Labour now needs to speak up and tell us what they will do if they win the GE. There has been far too much faffing about and far too little progress on policy. I await the conference with interest; and although I will continue to campaign for Labour locally, I intend to cancel my membership (even if they win) unless I see some progress on the issues I care about.

I want to express my regret to anyone I offended with my posts yesterday - however, that apology is confined to any upset caused, as I am still of the view that some of the accusations made against the Yes campaigners were unwarranted and unnecessarily pejorative.

Today will be interesting. I am much more concerned now about possible social unrest than I was before the vote. I hope that I am wrong about Cameron; but history shows how badly Scotland has been treated in the past, with successive governments since WW1 backing out of various deals, and I doubt that Cameron is the man to make good his promises. He hasn't done so once so far.....
I hope things don't get too nasty. I can well imagine how people who desperately wanted independence feel this morning, and I have every sympathy. I dare say it's like the day after the 1992 GE only much worse.

I have seen some crowing this morning, and that's not pretty. I suspect the vast majority of the campaign was conducted with respect, though I found both the No campaign's early negativity and reliance on narrow economic matters distasteful, and the Yes campaign's promises of milk and honey to be irresponsible, but it was an important issue and I don't blame people for campaigning hard.

I hope your predictions don't come to pass, but I admit I don't trust Cameron one bit. I don't doubt he'll duck the chance to be a statesman and try to find narrow political advantage, exactly as he did over the lobbying bill, probably by trying to exclude Labour MPs from voting on issues seen as 'English'. I don't think he'll get away with not honouring the vow, but on the other hand if he doesn't honour it, there'll be an election before too long and every chance that the next government will be a Labour one that will honour the promises made.

Everyone, Yes and No supporters across the Union who want to see democracy upheld need to keep the pressure up to deliver on more devolved powers for Scotland and elsewhere if they are needed.

Yes and as I say Cameron should be made to pay for being a complete and utter weasel.

It was he and he alone who forced this divisive referendum, when Salmond wanted the Devo Max option.

All the division, rancour and the inevitable profound disappointment in the Yes camp stems from Dave's actions.

And then in the end, he's offering Devo Max for everyone.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:18 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:

And I want to know what you think - so please leave a message on my Facebook page and tell me your views on these crucial matters.

Yours,

David Cameron
Is it just me, or do words like this just not have any place in a speech delivered by the Prime Minister of the UK?

Trivial, I know...

No - it's not just you.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:19 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
The people of Scotland have spoken. It is a clear result. They have kept our country of four nations together.

Like millions of other people, I'm delighted. It would have broken my heart to see our United Kingdom come to an end.

And that sentiment was shared by people not just across our country, but also around the world - because of what we've achieved together in the past and what we can do together in the future.

So now it is time for our United Kingdom to come together, and to move forward.

We have a chance - a great opportunity - to change the way the British people are governed, and change it for the better.

Political leaders on all sides must work together to advance the interests of people in Scotland, as well as those in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Because it is absolutely right that a new and fair settlement for Scotland should be accompanied by a new and fair settlement that applies to all parts of the United Kingdom.

I have long believed that a crucial part missing from this national discussion is England.

We have heard the voice of Scotland - and now the millions of voices of England must not go ignored.

So, just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax, spending and welfare, so too England, as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues - and all this must take place in tandem with, and at the same pace as, the settlement for Scotland.

This referendum has caught the imagination of people across the whole of our United Kingdom.

Now we must look forward, and turn this into the moment when everyone - whichever way they voted - comes together to build a better, brighter future for our entire United Kingdom.

And I want to know what you think - so please leave a message on my Facebook page and tell me your views on these crucial matters.

Yours,

David Cameron

I cannot link it but if you go to twitter @davidschneider and look at his timeline the original speech is there .

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:23 am

The BBC's idea of any minute now (or whatever the exact words were) differs vastly from mine.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:31 am

minch

PS can all you clever people check to see what bad news was announced yesterday (they must have tried to hide something)!

Gagging bill becomes law today :

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-b6 ... ecomes-law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-4b ... -influence" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:34 am

HindleA wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
The people of Scotland have spoken. It is a clear result. They have kept our country of four nations together.

Like millions of other people, I'm delighted. It would have broken my heart to see our United Kingdom come to an end.

And that sentiment was shared by people not just across our country, but also around the world - because of what we've achieved together in the past and what we can do together in the future.

So now it is time for our United Kingdom to come together, and to move forward.

We have a chance - a great opportunity - to change the way the British people are governed, and change it for the better.

Political leaders on all sides must work together to advance the interests of people in Scotland, as well as those in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Because it is absolutely right that a new and fair settlement for Scotland should be accompanied by a new and fair settlement that applies to all parts of the United Kingdom.

I have long believed that a crucial part missing from this national discussion is England.

We have heard the voice of Scotland - and now the millions of voices of England must not go ignored.

So, just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax, spending and welfare, so too England, as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues - and all this must take place in tandem with, and at the same pace as, the settlement for Scotland.

This referendum has caught the imagination of people across the whole of our United Kingdom.

Now we must look forward, and turn this into the moment when everyone - whichever way they voted - comes together to build a better, brighter future for our entire United Kingdom.

And I want to know what you think - so please leave a message on my Facebook page and tell me your views on these crucial matters.

Yours,

David Cameron

I cannot link it but if you go to twitter @davidschneider and look at his timeline the original speech is there .

Morning HindleA. Did you mean this one?

: Csmeron.jpg (188.7 KiB) Viewed 18110 times

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:38 am

Yes,cheers

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:39 am

BBC played Ed M's speech just now, well most of it, and then immediately allowed someone on to talk at length about why it wasn't a good speech.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:40 am

Cameron will do nothing about this until after the election - if he's still in place by then.

He is a liar, a bully, and the weakest PM in living memory.

He'll find a way to avoid doing what he "vowed" to do - whether that will be because of the run-up to the election, a nice new war for him to get involved in, some kerfuffle over Europe, whatever - or he'll pretend that the people of England, Wales, and NI are holding things up.

That ridiculous statement is proof, if any were needed, that he has no intention of offering Scotland anything approaching the Devo Max he has already refused; he will now employ any delaying tactic he can think up to back-track on the vow he made.

He will now concentrate on quashing his rebellious back-benchers, keeping his hold on power, and finishing the job of doing as much damage to this country (all of it) as he can before the election. All he cares about is his image of himself as a statesman, his vision of himself as a great leader/tough-decision-maker/international wonderman/whatever. He doesn't give a shit about anything else.

That statement is the beginning of the back-tracking; Salmond will have to go some to get the deal he was promised. Not good.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:41 am

Now the BBC is leading the news with 'David Cameron has welcomed the result...'. What, like it's some sort of vote of confidence in him? I hate the BBC.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:55 am

ephemerid wrote:Hey ho, that's democracy......

Well said. I realise how disappointed you must be (shades of '83 and '92 stirring in my memory) but, as Miliband has just said

This was a vote for change. Change doesn't end today, change begins today

Cameron et al will be hoping to maintain the status quo, especially with this idea of excluding some MPs from some votes (NickyB will be delighted); but I'm hoping Miliband's comments herald a sea change in the attitude of at least one political party - all of a sudden Conference coming up next week looks like a good deal. Let us hope they don't fumble this chance to take the lead, and the moral high ground.

ephemerid wrote: I just hope that the (nearly) half of the country that wanted independence will be calm enough to negotiate and fight their corner without any serious trouble - my fear is that they will not get what has been promised and they will not take that lying down.

I hope so too, but I'm not sanguine about it. Friends who were praising a "vibrant democracy" earlier this week are now making bitter comments that the people didn't vote the 'right' way; sadly I think it is only "vibrant" if it is their way, really can't see them working for consensus and that is a crying shame. If we could muster even half the energy & enthusiasm that has been poured into this campaign we could build a society to be proud of, rather than one where the Establishment 'divides and rules'.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 9:58 am

Hello all. Mind if I join you. BTL on the Guardian seems to have turned into a bash Ed fest. Not sure why a steady and competent campaign by Alastair Darling and a timely, and passionate, last minute intervention by Gordon Brown, all to save David Cameron's ass and win this referendum for the sake of the union despite the Coalition's best effort to turn every section of society on each other and tear the whole country apart, means that Ed is a loser, but that seems to be the consensus of opinion at the moment.

Meanwhile, no one seems to have much to say about David Cameron's speech, which sounds like a hastily crafted attempt to gerrymander Labour out of power by handing out of proportion influence over the whole of England to the over-populated South East. i.e. to try to create all the advantages to the Tories of Scotland going independent, without the inconvenience of losing the vote. As others have already said, I really don't trust Cameron, everything he does is self-serving, rushed and ultimately disastrous for ordinary people.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 10:04 am

In the latest in a series of "Up is Down" and "Black is White" articles, Toby Young argues that Cameron has played a difficult hand very well.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyy ... um-ballot/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I suspect we will see a lot more such flummery over the next few days, coupled with spurious reasons why we should have 2 tier MPs, but very little about regional devolution in the English regions

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 10:04 am

frightful_oik wrote:Now the BBC is leading the news with 'David Cameron has welcomed the result...'. What, like it's some sort of vote of confidence in him? I hate the BBC.

I'm confident I hate the BBC more. And there was a time when they/it made me positively gleam with pride.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 10:07 am

@Willow904

Hello.

I don't go to the Guardian (comments btl) much these days but, when I do and see your posts, I always read them because I know they'll be intelligent and thoughtful. I usually agree with them, too. It's a bit of a bear garden over there, isn't it? I caught sight, earlier, of a comment jeering at the Scots (by a poster who didn't even appear to be Scottish him\herself) for being cowards or something similar. Perhaps it was posted by DevoDave. It was very reminiscent of his style.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 10:10 am

Willow904 wrote:Hello all. Mind if I join you. BTL on the Guardian seems to have turned into a bash Ed fest. Not sure why a steady and competent campaign by Alastair Darling and a timely, and passionate, last minute intervention by Gordon Brown, all to save David Cameron's ass and win this referendum for the sake of the union despite the Coalition's best effort to turn every section of society on each other and tear the whole country apart, means that Ed is a loser, but that seems to be the consensus of opinion at the moment.

Meanwhile, no one seems to have much to say about David Cameron's speech, which sounds like a hastily crafted attempt to gerrymander Labour out of power by handing out of proportion influence over the whole of England to the over-populated South East. i.e. to try to create all the advantages to the Tories of Scotland going independent, without the inconvenience of losing the vote. As others have already said, I really don't trust Cameron, everything he does is self-serving, rushed and ultimately disastrous for ordinary people.

Morning Willow - good to see you here

And agree wholeheartedly.
Once again this has Crosby's fingerprints all over it. Every angle will have been covered whatever the outcome, so now it's back to Ed bashing because that's all that's left for the Tories to do.
Some time ago one of the papers warned that's how they would have to fight the 2015 GE. It would be personal and dirty because their policies and past record wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 10:12 am

Good morning everyone.

Looks like Scotland has spoken - for now. If Cameron fudges or reneges on his promises, I expect the separatists to be back. Whilst I'm happy it was a no vote, pro independence FTNers have my sympathy. It is down to the rest of us to badger our representatives to fulfill the promises and to hold those in power to account - or suffer the consequences. Labour, in particular, need to be visible and muscular from now to ensure that it is not business as usual at Westminster, and that devolution is treated seriously for all areas of the UK.

The question of the West Lothian issue doesn't arise in my mind. The Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish parliaments and assemblies have members elcted in those areas specifically to vote on proposals for those areas. English assemblies should the arise (and they bloody well better) would have their own members too, I hope, and vote on specific proposals for themselves. The national/UK parliament in Westminster is where MPs from all over the UK come to vote on proposals that may or may not be specific or general law. They are a constituency's voice on a national stage and all deserve a voice. It is voting at a national level, with an assembly of all voices, not just particular interested parties.

Thanks to Lady Centauria in particular for last night's sterling work. I gave up soon after 10pm (knackered), so missed the excitement until this morning when the result was settled.

Here's to a brave new world, in the best possible sense.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 19 Sep, 2014 10:16 am

Ed has promised more autonomy to the regions...What are the chances the Referendum and raising peoples awareness of regional powers, will make that particular policy a vote winner?