Saturday 10th & Sunday 11th October 2015

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 10:28 pm

The Democrats ‏@TheDemocrats 1 hr1 hour ago

BREAKING: All eligible Californians will be automatically registered to vote when they obtain/renew licenses.

Sounds like a good idea....

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 10:36 pm

ohsocynical wrote:The Democrats ‏@TheDemocrats 1 hr1 hour ago

BREAKING: All eligible Californians will be automatically registered to vote when they obtain/renew licenses.

Sounds like a good idea....

It is a brilliant idea, of course California tends to vote Democrat or RINO, doing the same in Florida and the Southern states would be better.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 10:37 pm

Nick Sutton ‏@suttonnick 43m43 minutes ago
Sunday Telegraph splash by @TimRossDT
#tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers

The 'splash' (image attached to the tweet) is a piece on the supposed 4 key demands of Cameron to remain in the EU.a

They appear to me to be just a confirmation of the current status quo ... e.g. no 'superstate' to be formed, no single currency / official euro as only currency and so on. It's not going to be enough to placate those who want out.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 10:37 pm

ohsocynical wrote:The Democrats ‏@TheDemocrats 1 hr1 hour ago

BREAKING: All eligible Californians will be automatically registered to vote when they obtain/renew licenses.

Sounds like a good idea....

Governor Brown has been a busy man.
I like him a lot.

Governor Jerry Brown has approved legislation to make California the second state in the nation to automatically register eligible voters when they obtain or renew their driver’s licenses.

Brown announced on Saturday that he had signed AB1461, a bill introduced by Assemblywoman Lorena Gonzalez, a Democrat from San Diego, which aims to boost California’s voter rolls by registering visitors to the Department of Motor Vehicles.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... gistration

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 10:38 pm

The first state was Oregon.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 10:42 pm

Now, with John Rentoul reviewing Call me Dave - how do you think it turns out?

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 86371.html

Reading the book does, however, shed some more accidental light on the relationship between Ashcroft and Cameron. Ashcroft has already put the preface online, so that everyone can come to a view on his motives in writing the book and the main revelation about himself, which is the claim that Cameron knew, before he said he did, about Ashcroft’s non-domiciled tax status. The second revelation, that Cameron, when he became Prime Minister, offered Ashcroft a post as a junior Foreign Office whip in the House of Lords, is also damaging. By then, it had become public knowledge that Ashcroft was a non-dom.

But the more I read the book, the better I thought it reflected on the Prime Minister. To have ditched Ashcroft suggests sound judgement, and to have done so with such light collateral damage required some political skill.

Could he be any more of a fanboy to come up with that conclusion?

Yes, let's not press the PM over what he knew about Ashcroft, let's just forget all about it.

Edit - and presumably let's ignore those others who were warning about taking Coulson into No 10 eh?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 10:43 pm

Sunny Hundal

Some Labour MPs making a huge mistake by supporting Cameron on action in Syria http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... on-syria …
Putin has changed everything now.

Richard Kelham ‏@RichardKelham 17 mins

Would one of those 50 idiot Labour MPs planning to support the Tories explain how you protect people by bombing them

Oh dear!

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 10:47 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Now, with John Rentoul reviewing Call me Dave - how do you think it turns out?

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 86371.html

Reading the book does, however, shed some more accidental light on the relationship between Ashcroft and Cameron. Ashcroft has already put the preface online, so that everyone can come to a view on his motives in writing the book and the main revelation about himself, which is the claim that Cameron knew, before he said he did, about Ashcroft’s non-domiciled tax status. The second revelation, that Cameron, when he became Prime Minister, offered Ashcroft a post as a junior Foreign Office whip in the House of Lords, is also damaging. By then, it had become public knowledge that Ashcroft was a non-dom.

But the more I read the book, the better I thought it reflected on the Prime Minister. To have ditched Ashcroft suggests sound judgement, and to have done so with such light collateral damage required some political skill.

Could he be any more of a fanboy to come up with that conclusion?

Yes, let's not press the PM over what he knew about Ashcroft, let's just forget all about it.

Edit - and presumably let's ignore those others who were warning about taking Coulson into No 10 eh?

Rentoul has zero objectivity when it comes to CMD. If Dave was caught in bed with Rentouls partner I would predict a piece eulogising Cameron for being on hand at short notice to provide firm leadership and decisive policy thrusts.

Glover must be jealous at his loss of status as number one CMD super-fan.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 10:48 pm

tinybgoat wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/small-busine ... p-insomnia

Lying awake at 3am? Perhaps you should try biphasic
sleeping

Extensive research by historian Roger Ekirch shows humans have traditionally slept in two phases. In his book, At Day’s Close: Night in Times Past, he points to more than 500 references from historical texts that speak of dividing the night into two periods of sleep.
It appears it was common for humans to go to bed two hours after dusk, wake in the middle of the night for a couple of hours to smoke, talk, pray or even have sex, then go back to sleep until morning. It wasn’t until the 19th century that people began sleeping in one block.

Slowly, slowly, the world is coming to recognise the desirability of my own sleep pattern and its history. First & Second Sleep down, Creative Idleness soon to come - and, one day, the Importance of Ponies (and Beautiful Young Men!)

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 10:50 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Now, with John Rentoul reviewing Call me Dave - how do you think it turns out?

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 86371.html

Reading the book does, however, shed some more accidental light on the relationship between Ashcroft and Cameron. Ashcroft has already put the preface online, so that everyone can come to a view on his motives in writing the book and the main revelation about himself, which is the claim that Cameron knew, before he said he did, about Ashcroft’s non-domiciled tax status. The second revelation, that Cameron, when he became Prime Minister, offered Ashcroft a post as a junior Foreign Office whip in the House of Lords, is also damaging. By then, it had become public knowledge that Ashcroft was a non-dom.

But the more I read the book, the better I thought it reflected on the Prime Minister. To have ditched Ashcroft suggests sound judgement, and to have done so with such light collateral damage required some political skill.

Could he be any more of a fanboy to come up with that conclusion?

Yes, let's not press the PM over what he knew about Ashcroft, let's just forget all about it.

Edit - and presumably let's ignore those others who were warning about taking Coulson into No 10 eh?
Rentoul has zero objectivity when it comes to CMD. If Dave was caught in bed with Rentouls partner I would predict a piece eulogising Cameron for being on hand at short notice to provide firm leadership and decisive policy thrusts.

Glover must be jealous at his loss of status as number one CMD super-fan.

But......but.........he's the Heir To Blair, you know??

Post by **refitman** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 10:55 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Nick Sutton ‏@suttonnick 43m43 minutes ago
Sunday Telegraph splash by @TimRossDT
#tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers
The 'splash' (image attached to the tweet) is a piece on the supposed 4 key demands of Cameron to remain in the EU.a

They appear to me to be just a confirmation of the current status quo ... e.g. no 'superstate' to be formed, no single currency / official euro as only currency and so on. It's not going to be enough to placate those who want out.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 10:58 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/small-busine ... p-insomnia

Lying awake at 3am? Perhaps you should try biphasic
sleeping

Extensive research by historian Roger Ekirch shows humans have traditionally slept in two phases. In his book, At Day’s Close: Night in Times Past, he points to more than 500 references from historical texts that speak of dividing the night into two periods of sleep.
It appears it was common for humans to go to bed two hours after dusk, wake in the middle of the night for a couple of hours to smoke, talk, pray or even have sex, then go back to sleep until morning. It wasn’t until the 19th century that people began sleeping in one block.
I imagine lack of lighting meant quite a difference to sleeping habits in those days too. Many couldn't even afford candles.

That and coming in dog-tired after a long day of hard physical work.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 11:01 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Sunny Hundal

Some Labour MPs making a huge mistake by supporting Cameron on action in Syria http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... on-syria …
Putin has changed everything now.

Richard Kelham ‏@RichardKelham 17 mins

Would one of those 50 idiot Labour MPs planning to support the Tories explain how you protect people by bombing them
Oh dear!

Syria is complex, the question on the table is different from the one Cameron asked last time. As far as I can tell Corbyn has decided to permit a free vote.

However having looked at what seems to be on the table it rather falls down on idiocy rather than moral grounds. Specifically:

With no troops on the ground how do you protect safe havens for people. Air power alone won't do it, insurgents can infiltrate and once in cause unstoppable havoc.

What does a no fly zone really mean. Since Russia is leading a combined arms offensive in the region these no fly zones cannot be in their forward area. If they are Russia will simply ignore the no fly zone and engage any western aircraft they encounter.

If the aim is to protect "moderate rebels", almost all of whom are AQ affiliates (the guys actually responsible for 9/11), how is that going to work? Engaging Syrian regime forces will immediately bring the Russians in.

If the aim is to protect the Kurds then NATO can either shoot down the Turkish Air Force itself or ask for the Russians to do so on its behalf.

In short Russia is on the ground, and for all of these MPs ideas they seem to have failed to understand what that means.

Nobody is going to attack Russia directly so this whole thing looks DOA.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 11:02 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Now, with John Rentoul reviewing Call me Dave - how do you think it turns out?

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 86371.html

Could he be any more of a fanboy to come up with that conclusion?

Yes, let's not press the PM over what he knew about Ashcroft, let's just forget all about it.

Edit - and presumably let's ignore those others who were warning about taking Coulson into No 10 eh?
Rentoul has zero objectivity when it comes to CMD. If Dave was caught in bed with Rentouls partner I would predict a piece eulogising Cameron for being on hand at short notice to provide firm leadership and decisive policy thrusts.

Glover must be jealous at his loss of status as number one CMD super-fan.
But......but.........he's the Heir To Blair, you know??

Looking at his bald spot Dave will soon be asking to borrow the hair of Blair.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 11:13 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: Rentoul has zero objectivity when it comes to CMD. If Dave was caught in bed with Rentouls partner I would predict a piece eulogising Cameron for being on hand at short notice to provide firm leadership and decisive policy thrusts.

Glover must be jealous at his loss of status as number one CMD super-fan.
But......but.........he's the Heir To Blair, you know??
Looking at his bald spot Dave will soon be asking to borrow the hair of Blair.

[youtube]bcYppAs6ZdI[/youtube]

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 11:49 pm

So we have tonight (i) Gilligan searching back through old stuff against Corbyn and (ii) the Mail trying to find anything they can throw against Tom Watson including this ludicrous effort.

My life has been shattered by bogus rape clam, says ex-MP: Politician accused of assaulting young girl fears vigilantes will attack his family

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... amily.html

A former MP accused of raping a six-year-old girl spoke last night of his fears that vigilantes will attack his family.

Describing the allegations as 'monstrous', the politician blamed two Labour MPs and investigations website Exaro, which he intends to sue, for fuelling the story and 'compromising my children's safety'. Although he has not been named, he says a report published by Exaro enabled some people to identify him.

'My concern is that vigilantes will identify me and attack me or my family over these totally false claims,' he said, adding he would 'prefer to be accused of murder'.

Wait.

You haven't been named by anyone and it was Exaro that published the article...which didn't name you...but somehow it's all two MPs (who he won't name yet) fault that some people have identified you?

But even though he won't name them, the MoS conveniently stick it under a story about Tom Watson making it clear that one of them is him.

Could they make it any more obvious that they won't rest until they've got his scalp?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 11:54 pm

Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 11:56 pm

Jesus, I've just read the story about Tom Watson's uncle being a child abuser which you would have thought by the tone was a recent thing and the sub-headline says this>

But the politician has chosen never to speak of the crimes of his uncle

Peter Halliwell was jailed for indecently assaulting boy, nine, 50 years ago

OK, so what relation is it to Watson?

Watson’s mother, Linda, now 72, married Halliwell’s brother, Edwin Barry Halliwell, in 1997.
It was her second marriage, and both Peter Halliwell and the politician were there.

Talk about tenuous - it's not even a blood relative and the offences happened 30 years before the brother married into Watson's family!

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 12:02 am

ohsocynical wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway%E2 ... _relations

Potted history of Norway, the EU and referendums from Wiki.
Norway has voted against joining on two occasions, in 1972 and in 1994.

I bring this up because, unlike the Scottish referendum, David Cameron didn't really have to hold this referendum. If you want to stay in the EU, as he professes, the only way to be sure of doing so is by not holding a vote! I just don't think he will be able to control and manipulate the debate, in the way it was possible with the Indy ref. Quotas, CAP, TTIP, immigration, trade, sovereignty, workers rights, jobs....there's a myriad of reasons why any one person may be for in or out - how do you address them all in a way that you doesn't put one person off your required outcome as you seek to persuade another?
I think this may well be a major reason why Call Me Dave decided to pre announce his quitting ... he's only too well aware that this move could lead to him being the PM that takes us out of Europe and subsequently breaks the union with Scotland ... best to spot his own exit route well in advance. If that's what happens - some Cameron legacy, eh. Not to mention all the other destruction left in his wake - most notably the NHS and social housing.
About the only consolation I get these days is imagining what the history books will say about him when he's gone. I shan't be here to see it, but I pray his descendants will be thoroughly ashamed of him.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that at least one of his children becomes a successful left-wing Labour figure long before Cameron pegs it!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 12:12 am

Of course there is a precedent there with Oliver Baldwin (with whose PM father Cameron is sometimes compared)

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 12:46 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:TTIP hardly gets mentioned by our MSM, but it is actually a pretty big thing as that tweet demonstrates.

Re the treaty whereby Philip Morris is suing Australia over plain packaging. The UK has already signed the an investment treaty with Hong Kong, just like Australia did. So "American corporations" can already sue the UK.

It's surely possible that a principle of public health or something could be inserted into TTIP? Which would make it harder to sue the UK government.

Lots of good stuff on TTIP here

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/tag/ttip/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 8:54 am

I've said it before and no doubt am likely to do so again but this government do not pay heed to any recommendations, advice or findings, should they even bother to do the research, regarding any of their policies, preferring their corrupt and dogmatic view of the world. Way back when landlord immigration checks were first mooted I emailed Cameron about the likely discrimination and whether he would advise my changing my name. No reply of course albeit I may have also been a little facetious the main thrust of my arguments were sound. Doing the right thing, being fair and realities that emanate from Tory mouths are not things that I recognise.

Right to Rent scheme risks discriminating against immigrants, warns Andy Burnham (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 89311.html)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 8:55 am

Peter Jukes ‏@peterjukes 10h10 hours ago
John Whittingdale's half-brother is Charles Napier (1 of the 3 convictions) but Mail didn't savage him as tainted @suttonnick

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 9:00 am

Peter Hitchens this morning, on Cameron being a Blairite

: ScreenShot00850.jpg (32.13 KiB) Viewed 7301 times

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... ories.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 9:05 am

Corbyn's asking for questions for this week's PMQ's.

How about, Peter Hitchens asks the PM:

''Will Mr Cameron make amends, and apologise for, his false and cheap suggestion that Mr Corbyn does not regard September 11th as a tragedy ?
Why does the Prime Minister feel the need to make deeply dishonest misrepresentations of what Mr Corbyn actually said ?''

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 9:18 am

One of the more sensible blogs on the child abuse allegations [some are David Icke territory, anti-semitic and triple tin foil hat] makes a point that although it was obvious for a while that some of the allegations against Leon Brittan were clearly not going to stand up he does appear to have had a sexualised interest in youngsters.

Also, that a story to do with allegations about a video film of him present at abuse had no basis.

But, and a big but, the same ex-customs officer who denied one particulalr story about an alleged video said Brittan's car had been stopped and Brittan had possession of child abuse images/erotic material about youngsters on video.
It was described as 'child pornography' so hard to ascertain where it would be on today's prosecution scale.

One also wonders whether the huge tabloid backlash against Watson may be to keep the question 'Why did Prince Charles protect his now convicted paedophile bishop friend from prosecution 30 years ago ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 9:27 am

''Yet as Panorama knows (or should know) there is strong evidence to indicate that Brittan had a sexual interest in children.

As I have reported elsewhere, tucked in the files of Operation Fairbank/Fernbridge is a formal 2014 statement from the ex-customs officer.

This, of course, denounces Exaro’s bogus story about the 1982 videos and films; but it also contains the startling – and detailed – account of how at a later date the ex-customs officer stopped Brittan as he arrived at Dover.

A search of Brittan’s car yielded a child pornography videotape which, even 30 years later, the contents of which the ex-customs officer was able to describe.''

https://theneedleblog.wordpress.com/201 ... hile-saga/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are the tabloids, Mail, Murdoch's Times, and people like Nick Cohen who are desperate to kick Watson in the nadgers and harm Labour, maybe protesting a bit too much ?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 10:18 am

Morning.

Patrick Wintour ‏@patrickwintour 3m3 minutes ago
Number 10 firmly guiding that Sunday Telegraph article does not accurately reflect the full UK renegotiation agenda with EU.

Well they would do, wouldn't they - it outlined a negotiation which contained pretty much nothing ... Dave's missing his clothes again.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 10:39 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:Morning.

Patrick Wintour ‏@patrickwintour 3m3 minutes ago
Number 10 firmly guiding that Sunday Telegraph article does not accurately reflect the full UK renegotiation agenda with EU.
Well they would do, wouldn't they - it outlined a negotiation which contained pretty much nothing ... Dave's missing his clothes again.

Firmly guiding? That's a new one.

Does anyone know when the fully negotiated TTIP deal is to go before the EU parliament? It could be a crucial factor for those on the left. If the parliament votes against or the controversial ISDS clause fails to make the final draft, it could reassure many on the left that the democratic element of the EU can function in people's best interests, if it goes the other way an out vote could be more likely. As the picture posted yesterday of TTIP protestors in Berlin shows, we have a lot in common with others across Europe and surely we are stronger when we act together. Environmental protections, for instance, require pan-European co-operation to be effective. But if it comes down to Cameron negotiating protections for the City of London and the EU accepting ISDS as part of a TTIP deal, it will be hard to remember the potential positives and hard to get behind an "in" vote for many on the left I suspect.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 11:44 am

Continuing on the EU referendum theme, are June Sarpong and Caroline Lucas going to be enough to counter the dowdy, white male establishment image the "in" campaign is currently sporting?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/10 ... 1444554237" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 12:03 pm

They will help - I think Lucas in particular is a good "catch".

I wouldn't be worrying about stuff like this just yet. Rose may be persona non grata to us because of his loud and enthusiastic support of Tory economic policy, but that's exactly what might make him well placed to speak to an important part of the electorate the "remain" camp needs to prevail.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 12:03 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/small-busine ... p-insomnia

I imagine lack of lighting meant quite a difference to sleeping habits in those days too. Many couldn't even afford candles.
That and coming in dog-tired after a long day of hard physical work.

Also learned a while back that in Norman times [I think,] and a few centuries after, people didn't like to sleep lying down because being flat and unconscious as such, was too much like death...They had very short beds so they literally couldn't slip down into a prone position

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 12:05 pm

Willow904 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:Morning.

Patrick Wintour ‏@patrickwintour 3m3 minutes ago
Number 10 firmly guiding that Sunday Telegraph article does not accurately reflect the full UK renegotiation agenda with EU.
Well they would do, wouldn't they - it outlined a negotiation which contained pretty much nothing ... Dave's missing his clothes again.
Firmly guiding? That's a new one.

Does anyone know when the fully negotiated TTIP deal is to go before the EU parliament? It could be a crucial factor for those on the left. If the parliament votes against or the controversial ISDS clause fails to make the final draft, it could reassure many on the left that the democratic element of the EU can function in people's best interests, if it goes the other way an out vote could be more likely. As the picture posted yesterday of TTIP protestors in Berlin shows, we have a lot in common with others across Europe and surely we are stronger when we act together. Environmental protections, for instance, require pan-European co-operation to be effective. But if it comes down to Cameron negotiating protections for the City of London and the EU accepting ISDS as part of a TTIP deal, it will be hard to remember the potential positives and hard to get behind an "in" vote for many on the left I suspect.

TTIP-related legislation was the subject of this PQ in the House of Lords in July 2015:
Asked by Lord Warner:
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what legislation will have to be put before Parliament to give effect to the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership in the United Kingdom. [HL1134]

Lord Maude of Horsham:
The EU-US Free Trade Agreement is expected to be a mixed agreement to which the UK will individually be a party. In that case before it can come fully into force, it will be subject to agreement by each Member State. In the UK this does not require legislation, instead Parliament will receive the complete draft text of the agreement and can scrutinise it through debates in both Houses. We will not know for certain whether any implementing legislation will be necessary until the agreement is closer to completion.

In summary, Parliament could delay ratification or stop the Government from ratifying a treaty:
- By voting against any legislation needed to authorise its ratification;
- By voting against ratification in a debate on the treaty when it is published during the 21-day period and doing so each time the treaty is debated thereafter (Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010).

The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP)
Published Tuesday, October 6, 2015

A briefing on the background, negotiation process and controversial points of the proposed EU-US free trade agreement, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP).

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ ... ry/SN06688

BRIEFING PAPER
Number 06688, 6 October 2015
The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ ... fullreport

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 12:06 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 12:40 pm

This is interesting. It looks like rumours the ISDS mechanism was a sticking point in EU-US negotiations may be correct as the EU is proposing a new facility for dealing with disputes:

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/ ... fm?id=1364" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The European Commission has approved its proposal for a new and transparent system for resolving disputes between investors and states – the Investment Court System. This new system would replace the existing investor-to-state dispute settlement (ISDS) mechanism in all ongoing and future EU investment negotiations, including the EU-US talks on a Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP)

I get a sense that TTIP won't get EU parliament approval with the ISDS clause attached. This new proposal (coming after an EU vote was postponed in July) appears to be an attempt to get around that. Will the US go for it though?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 12:58 pm

Willow904 wrote:This is interesting. It looks like rumours the ISDS mechanism was a sticking point in EU-US negotiations may be correct as the EU is proposing a new facility for dealing with disputes:

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/ ... fm?id=1364" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The European Commission has approved its proposal for a new and transparent system for resolving disputes between investors and states – the Investment Court System. This new system would replace the existing investor-to-state dispute settlement (ISDS) mechanism in all ongoing and future EU investment negotiations, including the EU-US talks on a Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP)
I get a sense that TTIP won't get EU parliament approval with the ISDS clause attached. This new proposal (coming after an EU vote was postponed in July) appears to be an attempt to get around that. Will the US go for it though?

T-TIP Round Information
11th Round Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership Negotiations
October 19 – 23, 2014
Miami, Florida

NEGOTIATIONS
The eleventh round of the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (T-TIP) negotiations will take place in Miami, Florida from October 19 - 23, 2015. The Office of the U.S. Trade Representative (USTR) will host a stakeholder forum on Wednesday, October 21st from 11:00 a.m. – 4:30 p.m. to provide an update on negotiations and solicit input and feedback from interested stakeholders, as well as a press conference on Friday, October 23 to discuss outcomes from the negotiations.

https://ustr.gov/ttip/ttip-round-information

(my emphasis)

Someone got the date wrong.
It's correct below 'Negotiations'.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 1:05 pm

It took me too long to track down the date and location of the USA portions of negotiations of this gig - the information should have been linked better. It's not as though they've not had enough time to sort out the date and venue in the US following the EU decision made 8 July 2015.
I'm not usually a pendant. I was initially baffled genuinely confused and wondering if I were somehow a year late. I'm not.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 1:09 pm

Willow904 wrote:This is interesting. It looks like rumours the ISDS mechanism was a sticking point in EU-US negotiations may be correct as the EU is proposing a new facility for dealing with disputes:

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/ ... fm?id=1364" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The European Commission has approved its proposal for a new and transparent system for resolving disputes between investors and states – the Investment Court System. This new system would replace the existing investor-to-state dispute settlement (ISDS) mechanism in all ongoing and future EU investment negotiations, including the EU-US talks on a Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP)
I get a sense that TTIP won't get EU parliament approval with the ISDS clause attached. This new proposal (coming after an EU vote was postponed in July) appears to be an attempt to get around that. Will the US go for it though?

We've leverage over the US with their screwed up date on the treaty negotiation webpage for starters.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 1:09 pm

: ScreenShot00852.jpg (37.07 KiB) Viewed 7132 times

: ScreenShot00856.jpg (69.79 KiB) Viewed 7132 times

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 1:23 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:They will help - I think Lucas in particular is a good "catch".

I wouldn't be worrying about stuff like this just yet. Rose may be persona non grata to us because of his loud and enthusiastic support of Tory economic policy, but that's exactly what might make him well placed to speak to an important part of the electorate the "remain" camp needs to prevail.

I remember the first Referendum well. We didn't have a choice dozens of channels in those days, so suffered rather a lot of politicians on screeen discussing the ins and outs of joining.
I honestly can't remember anything about freedom of movement across borders...It must have been discussed, but only as a secondary 'benefit' and for easy movement of imports and exports. At the time, it seemed to be almost entirely about tariffs, trading and markets. Single currency was an issue and losing our identity, but in the main it was about trade, trade, trade. It was very dry stuff.

The identity thing was what swayed me to vote against.

It seems quite strange that this time around I will be deciding based on human rights, the environment and how our belonging, or not, will affect refugees.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 1:26 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:
ScreenShot00852.jpg

ScreenShot00856.jpg

The facial resemblance is uncanny. Can't comment on the willy....Looks like it's been broken off to me. Too many pig's heads?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 1:26 pm

Blimey! It even has the correct man boobs.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 1:28 pm

TTIP negotiations are clearly still ongoing. What I want to know is the likelihood of a vote on a finalised TTIP before Cameron's referendum. If people see that the EU has protected the NHS, despite Cameron's indifference, and listened to concerns about ISDS and addressed them, it will be harder for the out lobby to use TTIP as a bogeyman to scare people who might otherwise be pro-EU to vote against their best interests. On the other hand, if the bogeyman turns out to be real and TTIP turns out to be a bad deal, at least people will know before voting in or out.
Whatever happens, in or out, I just hope it's bad news for the Tories, they deserve to be hoist upon their own petard.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 1:37 pm

There is some humanity left.

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citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 1:41 pm

Private arbitration

plenary reaffirmed that foreign investors should be treated in a non-discriminatory fashion while benefiting from no greater rights than domestic investors, and to replace the investor-to-state dispute settlement (ISDS) system with a new system for resolving disputes between investors and states which is subject to democratic principles and scrutiny, where potential cases are treated in a transparent manner by and which includes an appellate mechanism, where consistency of publicly appointed, independent professional judges in public hearings judicial decisions is ensured the jurisdiction of courts of the EU and of the Member States is respected, and where private interests cannot undermine public policy objectives.

08/07/2015 - Text adopted by [EU] Parliament, single reading

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/popu ... 53316&l=en

From the EU Procedure File, a six page pdf document complete with handy links & summaries

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 1:48 pm

ohsocynical wrote: I remember the first Referendum well. We didn't have a choice dozens of channels in those days, so suffered rather a lot of politicians on screeen discussing the ins and outs of joining.
I honestly can't remember anything about freedom of movement across borders...It must have been discussed, but only as a secondary 'benefit' and for easy movement of imports and exports. At the time, it seemed to be almost entirely about tariffs, trading and markets. Single currency was an issue and losing our identity, but in the main it was about trade, trade, trade. It was very dry stuff.

The identity thing was what swayed me to vote against.

It seems quite strange that this time around I will be deciding based on human rights, the environment and how our belonging, or not, will affect refugees.

But in those days it was the 'Common Market' rather than the EU. I seem to remember Harold Steptoe explaining it to Albert as "countries getting together and flogging fings to each other - not a row of stalls up a backstreet".
Whatever happened to the 'wine lake' and the 'butter mountain'?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 2:04 pm

Afternoon Eric.

Various news stories show the saintly SNP halos are slipping !

SNP MP gives office job to boyfriend
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1383 ... boyfriend/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SNP branch suspended after feud in party favourite's target seat
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1383 ... rget_seat/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and of course the ongoing shennanigans around Michelle Thomson, as well as her much denied membership on the Ashley Madison cheap thrills sex site.

Just love the new politics, SNP style

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 2:04 pm

At least 50 Labour MPs are prepared to defy Jeremy Corbyn by backing military action to protect civilians in Syria, it has emerged.... In a clear challenge to the Labour leader’s authority...Although his close friend and shadow chancellor John McDonnell has suggested Labour MPs could be given a free vote in the Commons, it would be a huge blow to the leader’s authority if a vote was passed with the backing of a sizable number of Labour MPs.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... n-on-syria

Authority not exercised is impossible to defy.
McDonnell being described as Corbyn's 'close friend' before his position as Shadow Chancellor combined with the authority challenge lie makes the piece an editorial, not a news item and should be labelled as such.
The article is a huge blow.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 2:05 pm

More nonsense from the execrable ex-Heil "journalist" Boffey.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 2:06 pm

Patrick O'Flynn ‏@oflynnmep 51m51 minutes ago
Lots of coverage in Sunday papers anticipating launch of Stuart Rose's Campaign For Lower Wages tomorrow! Apparently Mandelson will be there

Oh for goodness sake ... have they not taken note ... keep Mandy well away ... he is pretty much the kiss of death for any campaign.