Wednesday 14th October 2015

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 7:31 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Is anyone on here in favour of the abstentions on the austerity bill?

Also against.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 7:38 pm

Doesn't seem to me as if there's any logic to, or advantage to be gained by, abstaining. (Sometimes I can understand what people see as the point in abstaining, even if I don't agree with it. Not in this case, though.)

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 7:49 pm

I see no logic to abstention, either. What could possibly be gained by it? There is no possibility for amendments to be made.

Post by **refitman** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 7:56 pm

McDonnell's got his fighting trousers on tonight:

James Cleverly, a Conservative MP, says the wording of the charter has not changed in the last two weeks. What changed? Had McDonnell not read the charter two weeks ago?

McDonnell says, before an MP intervenes in a debate, it is best to have listened to it first, so that one can be sure one is adding something to the sum of human knowledge.

Fighting trousers

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 8:07 pm

refitman wrote:McDonnell's got his fighting trousers on tonight:
James Cleverly, a Conservative MP, says the wording of the charter has not changed in the last two weeks. What changed? Had McDonnell not read the charter two weeks ago?

McDonnell says, before an MP intervenes in a debate, it is best to have listened to it first, so that one can be sure one is adding something to the sum of human knowledge.

Fighting trousers

Not so cleverley Cleverly then.

I see from twitter that McDonnell has supposedly had to 'apologise' to a couple of MPs for being 'ungallant'. If this is him being 'ungallant' - bring it on.

Sounds like he kicked off with a refreshing admission that he was wrong to think they could support this nonsense fiscal charter (my wording not his).

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 8:08 pm

Owen BennettVerified account
‏@owenjbennett

Osborne mocks corbyn's crowd sourced #pmqs as he refers to @BenPBradshaw as 'Ben from Exeter' #FiscalCharter

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 8:24 pm

Hello
(wave)

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 8:25 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Owen BennettVerified account
‏@owenjbennett

Osborne mocks corbyn's crowd sourced #pmqs as he refers to @BenPBradshaw as 'Ben from Exeter' #FiscalCharter

In answer to the above Tweet.

Harry Smith ‏@stvharry 46 mins46 minutes ago London, England

Think this might be a mistake George; my straw polls say punters quite like Corbyn's approach

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 8:41 pm

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 1 hr1 hour ago
On nationalising Britain's railways:
Support: 55%
Oppose: 30%
(via YouGov)

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 8:46 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Hello
(wave)

Hellooo!! :waves back:

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 8:48 pm

Errr evening all.

Was there a troll here?

Some belting discussion today, robust, constructive, polite enough. Which I had more time to join in....

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 8:48 pm

Division has been called. Result expected at 9pm...

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 8:54 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Is anyone on here in favour of the abstentions on the austerity bill?

Also against.

I would probably abstain - by not turning up.

The whole thing is puerile bollocks.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 8:58 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Is anyone on here in favour of the abstentions on the austerity bill?

Also against.
I would probably abstain - by not turning up.

The whole thing is puerile bollocks.

That's what's so upsetting. Nero, Rome and fiddling spring to mind.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 9:00 pm

Ayes 320
Noes 258
The Ayes have it by 62. Who they, one wonders, beyond the Government majority of 12?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 9:00 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:Is anyone on here in favour of the abstentions on the austerity bill?

Also against.
I would probably abstain - by not turning up.

The whole thing is puerile bollocks.

And what is abstaining if not puerile as well? The vote has been called so something has to be done

It at least shows that the party is against this shite coming from Osborne and it also leaves the Tories isolated in this stupid game.

Abstaining will be portrayed by the media as voting with the Tories and all who do it know that....abstention would only work if all other parties abstained. How do you think the SNP/Plaid/greens would spin them voting against and Labour abstaining? Even Clegg is voting against ffs

For someone who always seems to call out the party leadership for being naïve and chaotic I think it is a very odd position to take

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 9:06 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Also against.
I would probably abstain - by not turning up.

The whole thing is puerile bollocks.

And what is abstaining if not puerile as well? The vote has been called so something has to be done

It at least shows that the party is against this shite coming from Osborne and it also leaves the Tories isolated in this stupid game.

Abstaining will be portrayed by the media as voting with the Tories and all who do it know that....abstention would only work if all other parties abstained. How do you think the SNP/Plaid/greens would spin them voting against and Labour abstaining? Even Clegg is voting against ffs

For someone who always seems to call out the party leadership for being naïve and chaotic I think it is a very odd position to take

I think TE is entitled to his opinion and indeed it's our ground rule that he should be.

I also see exactly what he means on this occasion.

I also know TE can speak for himself

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 9:09 pm

In the end then it seems there was little in the way of chaos or splits, which were just what the BBC wanted us to believe were happening.

It's squirrel time every day. Why aren't the papers focusing on the EU chaos and splits? And all the other shambles on show from the Government?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 9:11 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: I would probably abstain - by not turning up.

The whole thing is puerile bollocks.

And what is abstaining if not puerile as well? The vote has been called so something has to be done

It at least shows that the party is against this shite coming from Osborne and it also leaves the Tories isolated in this stupid game.

Abstaining will be portrayed by the media as voting with the Tories and all who do it know that....abstention would only work if all other parties abstained. How do you think the SNP/Plaid/greens would spin them voting against and Labour abstaining? Even Clegg is voting against ffs

For someone who always seems to call out the party leadership for being naïve and chaotic I think it is a very odd position to take
I think TE is entitled to his opinion and indeed it's our ground rule that he should be.

I also see exactly what he means on this occasion.

I also know TE can speak for himself

Of course he is entitled to his opinion, and I respect that you may agree with it.

I, however, stand by what I say and he has been the one continually criticising everything the current party leadership does on grounds of naïvety and lack of political nous

I would just ask - in view of his previous comments - how he thinks any large failure of Labour MPs to vote against this idiocy will be seen. Does he not think that the SNP, Plaid, LD and the Greens will use it just like they spun it last time?

We all know it is bollocks but, as I said, there were two options. All opposition parties sitting on their hands or voting against. Anything that comes close to supporting the Tories is toxic and I can guarantee Osborne and Cameron will use abstentions against the party in future

As TE keeps telling us - why give the Tories easy ammunition?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 9:12 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:In the end then it seems there was little in the way of chaos or splits, which were just what the BBC wanted us to believe were happening.

It's squirrel time every day. Why aren't the papers focusing on the EU chaos and splits? And all the other shambles on show from the Government?

Because of the reasons I explained earlier today - they are totally opposed to a Corbyn led Labour Party!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 9:15 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
And what is abstaining if not puerile as well? The vote has been called so something has to be done

It at least shows that the party is against this shite coming from Osborne and it also leaves the Tories isolated in this stupid game.

Abstaining will be portrayed by the media as voting with the Tories and all who do it know that....abstention would only work if all other parties abstained. How do you think the SNP/Plaid/greens would spin them voting against and Labour abstaining? Even Clegg is voting against ffs

For someone who always seems to call out the party leadership for being naïve and chaotic I think it is a very odd position to take
I think TE is entitled to his opinion and indeed it's our ground rule that he should be.

I also see exactly what he means on this occasion.

I also know TE can speak for himself

Of course he is entitled to his opinion, and I respect that you may agree with it.

I, however, stand by what I say and he has been the one continually criticising everything the current party leadership does on grounds of naïvety and lack of political nous

I would just ask - in view of his previous comments - how he thinks any large failure of Labour MPs to vote against this idiocy will be seen. Does he not think that the SNP, Plaid, LD and the Greens will use it just like they spun it last time?

We all know it is bollocks but, as I said, there were two options. All opposition parties sitting on their hands or voting against. Anything that comes close to supporting the Tories is toxic and I can guarantee Osborne and Cameron will use abstentions against the party in future

As TE keeps telling us - why give the Tories easy ammunition?

I see that appalling creature Joe Otten over at LDV is already crowing over 30 Labour MPs abstaining on twitter....

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 9:21 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Also against.
I would probably abstain - by not turning up.

The whole thing is puerile bollocks.

And what is abstaining if not puerile as well? The vote has been called so something has to be done

It at least shows that the party is against this shite coming from Osborne and it also leaves the Tories isolated in this stupid game.

Abstaining will be portrayed by the media as voting with the Tories and all who do it know that....abstention would only work if all other parties abstained. How do you think the SNP/Plaid/greens would spin them voting against and Labour abstaining? Even Clegg is voting against ffs

For someone who always seems to call out the party leadership for being naïve and chaotic I think it is a very odd position to take

I don't know, the entire party could just not turn up in protest at this rubbish. Which would be a fairly dramatic statement in itself.

Or perhaps my answer wasn't entirely serious, not being an MP and all.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 9:42 pm

There are no reports of any Labour MPs voting with the government.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blo ... e764b2e031

Good.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 9:42 pm

That Ken Clarke really has some bloody brass neck.

What happened under the last government was that the chancellor and his regulatory authorities allowed, first the dotcom bubble, and then the crazy credit boom. That meant tax revenues temporarily soared to astonishing levels. The then Labour government carried on running a deficit on top of those tax revenues, and then the revenues collapsed and left us with the worst annual deficit in the G20. The last government was complicit in the consequences of 2010.

1. The Tories abolished credit controls in the 1980s and argued for even less control of the financial services industry in the mid-2000s
2. They signed up to government spending in 2007.

Coming back and saying now "Well you shouldn't have done that" when they didn't say a bloody word at the time really is a fucking cheek.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 9:42 pm

So which SNP MPs voted with Tories then?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 9:46 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:That Ken Clarke really has some bloody brass neck.

What happened under the last government was that the chancellor and his regulatory authorities allowed, first the dotcom bubble, and then the crazy credit boom. That meant tax revenues temporarily soared to astonishing levels. The then Labour government carried on running a deficit on top of those tax revenues, and then the revenues collapsed and left us with the worst annual deficit in the G20. The last government was complicit in the consequences of 2010.
1. The Tories abolished credit controls in the 1980s and argued for even less control of the financial services industry in the mid-2000s
2. They signed up to government spending in 2007.

Coming back and saying now "Well you shouldn't have done that" when they didn't say a bloody word at the time really is a fucking cheek.

Clarke doesn't care about history or reality.
He's a Tory voting for bad Tory legislation.
Again.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 9:50 pm

seeing tweets saying Hunt, Danczuk and Kendall abstained whilst Miliband and Cooper voted against

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 9:56 pm

citizenJA wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:That Ken Clarke really has some bloody brass neck.

What happened under the last government was that the chancellor and his regulatory authorities allowed, first the dotcom bubble, and then the crazy credit boom. That meant tax revenues temporarily soared to astonishing levels. The then Labour government carried on running a deficit on top of those tax revenues, and then the revenues collapsed and left us with the worst annual deficit in the G20. The last government was complicit in the consequences of 2010.
1. The Tories abolished credit controls in the 1980s and argued for even less control of the financial services industry in the mid-2000s
2. They signed up to government spending in 2007.

Coming back and saying now "Well you shouldn't have done that" when they didn't say a bloody word at the time really is a fucking cheek.
Clarke doesn't care about history or reality.
He's a Tory voting for bad Tory legislation.
Again.

He was a Tory Chancellor - you would have thought, given the bust they managed to engineer us into at the end of the 80s and early 90s that he'd shut up about managing the economy.

In any case, how on earth you manage a share price explosion like the dot.com bubble?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:02 pm

From the Guardian.

Before the vote those Labour MPs who said they would abstain, notably Mike Gapes and Jamie Reed, were abused on Twitter, with accusations they were playing the Tory game and warnings they would find their local parties “pressing the deselect button”. Frank Field, the Labour MP for Birkenhead, responded to the threats by urging any MP who was deselected to immediately to trigger a byelection.

Which neatly explains why all this rubbish about deselection is just rubbish. Corbyn needs a by election right now like a hole in the head.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:08 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:From the Guardian.

Before the vote those Labour MPs who said they would abstain, notably Mike Gapes and Jamie Reed, were abused on Twitter, with accusations they were playing the Tory game and warnings they would find their local parties “pressing the deselect button”. Frank Field, the Labour MP for Birkenhead, responded to the threats by urging any MP who was deselected to immediately to trigger a byelection.
Which neatly explains why all this rubbish about deselection is just rubbish. Corbyn needs a by election right now like a hole in the head.

Well they hardly do themselves any favours though do they - especially that rentagob Gapes. And Field is becoming an embarrassment

They would not trigger a by-election because they would lose.....

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:18 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:From the Guardian.

Before the vote those Labour MPs who said they would abstain, notably Mike Gapes and Jamie Reed, were abused on Twitter, with accusations they were playing the Tory game and warnings they would find their local parties “pressing the deselect button”. Frank Field, the Labour MP for Birkenhead, responded to the threats by urging any MP who was deselected to immediately to trigger a byelection.
Which neatly explains why all this rubbish about deselection is just rubbish. Corbyn needs a by election right now like a hole in the head.
Well they hardly do themselves any favours though do they - especially that rentagob Gapes. And Field is becoming an embarrassment

They would not trigger a by-election because they would lose.....

If you deselect somebody they have lost anyway. They get a pension and they get a pound of flesh by triggering one. However if you lose a couple of winnable by elections as Labour leader right now you would probably be gone. Which is why it won't happen. That and the fact if the left start deselecting Labour MPs the PLP would take drastic action.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:18 pm

In other news of course

A senior German government official said the British issue “will play no role at the European council [summit]”.

“There’s no need now for further talks,” he said. “There have been no negotiations.”

[Groan]

So 20 Labour MPs rebel against Corbyn and it's a major political story, whereas Cameron's defining project is on the road to nowhere and barely gets a mention.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:19 pm

PS What a wonderfully damning statement from the German official

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:21 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:From the Guardian.
Which neatly explains why all this rubbish about deselection is just rubbish. Corbyn needs a by election right now like a hole in the head.
Well they hardly do themselves any favours though do they - especially that rentagob Gapes. And Field is becoming an embarrassment

They would not trigger a by-election because they would lose.....
If you deselect somebody they have lost anyway. They get a pension and they get a pound of flesh by triggering one. However if you lose a couple of winnable by elections as Labour leader right now you would probably be gone. Which is why it won't happen. That and the fact if the left start deselecting Labour MPs the PLP would take drastic action.

So many assumptions in one post......

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:25 pm

: votes.jpg (56.56 KiB) Viewed 9896 times

Red Labour ‏@red_labour 8 mins8 minutes ago

List of @UKLabour abstentions on #FiscalCharter. N.B there may be genuine reasons for some (illness, travel etc)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:27 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:That Ken Clarke really has some bloody brass neck.
1. The Tories abolished credit controls in the 1980s and argued for even less control of the financial services industry in the mid-2000s
2. They signed up to government spending in 2007.

Coming back and saying now "Well you shouldn't have done that" when they didn't say a bloody word at the time really is a fucking cheek.
Clarke doesn't care about history or reality.
He's a Tory voting for bad Tory legislation.
Again.
He was a Tory Chancellor...

(my edit)
...who did what he did with his eyes wide open of his own free will and takes no responsibility for his party's failures while pathetically blaming the Opposition.
Tory MPs belong to a bad political party harming the lives of people with their legislation.
Which MPs voted with Tories on this legislation, please?

Labour MPs didn't vote with Tories.

Tories mess people up.
It's a bad piece of work, it's a waste of time, this Tory legislation.
And it belongs to the Tory party.
On their heads be it.
Tory failure.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:30 pm

Further to the post of absentations posted above:

Just A Red Student ‏@ARedStudent 10 mins10 minutes ago
@red_labour

This is the list of unauthorised abstentions, there were total 36 lab abstentions but 15 authorised.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:31 pm

Is it a defence mechanism to focus on that which doesn't matter a lot in the face of a Tory majority government?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:31 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:In other news of course

A senior German government official said the British issue “will play no role at the European council [summit]”.

“There’s no need now for further talks,” he said. “There have been no negotiations.”
[Groan]

So 20 Labour MPs rebel against Corbyn and it's a major political story, whereas Cameron's defining project is on the road to nowhere and barely gets a mention.

Odd isn't it. I suggest 20 MPs abstaining isn't exactly a major political story though, no matter how hard the right wing press try to make it one.

One interpretation of the German story is that the UK hasn't set out an agenda so there is nothing to discuss. Which is less dismissive but still news.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:32 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cameron and Gove showered praise on Kids Company in 18 months before its closure
Select committee learns prime minister told CEO Camila Batmanghelidjh he wanted to work in partnership with charity

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:33 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote: Well they hardly do themselves any favours though do they - especially that rentagob Gapes. And Field is becoming an embarrassment

They would not trigger a by-election because they would lose.....
If you deselect somebody they have lost anyway. They get a pension and they get a pound of flesh by triggering one. However if you lose a couple of winnable by elections as Labour leader right now you would probably be gone. Which is why it won't happen. That and the fact if the left start deselecting Labour MPs the PLP would take drastic action.

So many assumptions in one post......

And your point is?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:33 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:In other news of course

A senior German government official said the British issue “will play no role at the European council [summit]”.

“There’s no need now for further talks,” he said. “There have been no negotiations.”
[Groan]

So 20 Labour MPs rebel against Corbyn and it's a major political story, whereas Cameron's defining project is on the road to nowhere and barely gets a mention.

Exactly.
I'm very nervous about what isn't in the headlines at the moment.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:38 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:In the end then it seems there was little in the way of chaos or splits, which were just what the BBC wanted us to believe were happening.

It's squirrel time every day. Why aren't the papers focusing on the EU chaos and splits? And all the other shambles on show from the Government?

(my bold)

Current Tory government own a lot of the media and they choose what people get to be bombarded with through that media.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:45 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: If you deselect somebody they have lost anyway. They get a pension and they get a pound of flesh by triggering one. However if you lose a couple of winnable by elections as Labour leader right now you would probably be gone. Which is why it won't happen. That and the fact if the left start deselecting Labour MPs the PLP would take drastic action.

So many assumptions in one post......
And your point is?

The point is that no-one has been deselected, there is no plan to de-select anyone and the people going on about it the most are either anonymous twitter users or those MPs themselves!

Your post made it seem that there were a whole raft of deselections imminent...is there any evidence for that from those people who make the decisions?

As it comes towards the election we may see some of these 'rebels' needing to have a look at themselves with their local parties to see if they are still suitable candidates. I cannot see many on that list that would be likely to have a problem but there are a few and they would be no great loss to the party

It is amazing though isn't it that a number of these were also the ones continually sniping at Miliband as well.....it doesn't seem to be all linked to Corbyn. I am not quite sure what party they want to be in?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:48 pm

Chris Ship ‏@chrisshipitv 31m31 minutes ago
Labour MP @MikeGapes tonight to @itvnews l: we allowed George Osborne to portray Labour as deficit deniers & that why I abstained

Eh?

and after another look and think about it ... eh?

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:50 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:That Ken Clarke really has some bloody brass neck.

What happened under the last government was that the chancellor and his regulatory authorities allowed, first the dotcom bubble, and then the crazy credit boom. That meant tax revenues temporarily soared to astonishing levels. The then Labour government carried on running a deficit on top of those tax revenues, and then the revenues collapsed and left us with the worst annual deficit in the G20. The last government was complicit in the consequences of 2010.
1. The Tories abolished credit controls in the 1980s and argued for even less control of the financial services industry in the mid-2000s
2. They signed up to government spending in 2007.

Coming back and saying now "Well you shouldn't have done that" when they didn't say a bloody word at the time really is a fucking cheek.

Not to mention how the fuck you prevent gamblers the world over from investing in, predominantly, Silicon Valley companies - predominantly on the NASDAQ in good old Wall Street - when not only were the companies themselves and the investment companies spending vast fortunes on advertising over a long period of time 1993 onward and when Clarke's own Government were crowing about turning the UK into a 'share-owning democracy'!

Edit to add a space...

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:55 pm

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... ng-nowhere" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For all the uproar among Labour MPs, Jeremy Corbyn is going nowhere

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:56 pm

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... ing-it-out" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maria Eagle on nuclear disarmament: “I’m not ruling it out”
In her first major interview, the shadow defence secretary promises that Labour’s defence review will be “genuine”.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:57 pm

Charter for Budget Responsibility
7.15 pm
The First Secretary of State and Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne):
I beg to move,
That the Charter for Budget Responsibility: autumn 2015 update which was laid before the House on 12 October, be approved.

[debate]

One and a half hours having elapsed since the commencement of proceedings on the motion, the Speaker put the Question (Standing Order No.16(1)).

The House divided: Ayes 320, Noes 258.
Division No. 77][8.45 pm]

AYES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Allan, Lucy
Allen, Heidi
Amess, Sir David
Andrew, Stuart
Ansell, Caroline
Argar, Edward
Atkins, Victoria
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Mr Steve
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Berry, James
Bingham, Andrew
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Borwick, Victoria
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, rh James
Bruce, Fiona
Buckland, Robert
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Sir Simon
Burt, rh Alistair
Cairns, Alun
Cameron, rh Mr David
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cartlidge, James
Cash, Sir William
Caulfield, Maria
Chalk, Alex
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Churchill, Jo
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Cleverly, James
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Costa, Alberto
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, rh Stephen
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, Byron
Davies, Chris
Davies, David T. C.
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Dr James
Davies, Mims
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh Mr David
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donelan, Michelle
Double, Steve
Dowden, Oliver
Drax, Richard
Drummond, Mrs Flick
Duncan, rh Sir Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Elliott, Tom
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Mr Nigel
Evennett, rh Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, rh Michael
Fernandes, Suella
Field, rh Mark
Foster, Kevin
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Frazer, Lucy
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fuller, Richard
Fysh, Marcus
Gale, Sir Roger
Garnier, rh Sir Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Ghani, Nusrat
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Chris
Green, rh Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, rh Robert
Hall, Luke
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, rh Matthew
Hands, rh Greg
Harper, rh Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, rh Mr John
Heald, Sir Oliver
Heappey, James
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Heaton-Jones, Peter
Henderson, Gordon
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoare, Simon
Hollingbery, George
Hollinrake, Kevin
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Howarth, Sir Gerald
Howell, John
Howlett, Ben
Huddleston, Nigel
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, rh Sajid
Jayawardena, Mr Ranil
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Jenkyns, Andrea
Jenrick, Robert
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, rh Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kennedy, Seema
Kinahan, Danny
Kirby, Simon
Knight, Julian
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Lancaster, Mark
Latham, Pauline
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Dr Phillip
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Sir Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, rh Dr Julian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Lumley, Karen
Mackinlay, Craig
Mackintosh, David
Main, Mrs Anne
Mak, Mr Alan
Malthouse, Kit
Mann, Scott
Mathias, Dr Tania
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Johnny
Merriman, Huw
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, rh Mrs Maria
Milling, Amanda
Mills, Nigel
Milton, rh Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, rh Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Morton, Wendy
Mowat, David
Mundell, rh David
Murray, Mrs Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Dr Matthew
Osborne, rh Mr George
Paisley, Ian
Parish, Neil
Patel, rh Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, rh Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Philp, Chris
Pickles, rh Sir Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Pow, Rebecca
Prentis, Victoria
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pursglove, Tom
Quin, Jeremy
Quince, Will
Raab, Mr Dominic
Redwood, rh John
Rees-Mogg, Mr Jacob
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Robinson, Mary
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, rh Amber
Rutley, David
Sandbach, Antoinette
Scully, Paul
Selous, Andrew
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simpson, rh Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Royston
Solloway, Amanda
Soubry, rh Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Graham
Sturdy, Julian
Sunak, Rishi
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Thomas, Derek
Throup, Maggie
Timpson, Edward
Tolhurst, Kelly
Tomlinson, Justin
Tomlinson, Michael
Tracey, Craig
Tredinnick, David
Trevelyan, Mrs Anne-Marie
Truss, rh Elizabeth
Tugendhat, Tom
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, rh Mr Andrew
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Warburton, David
Warman, Matt
Watkinson, Dame Angela
Wharton, James
Whately, Helen
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittingdale, rh Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Craig
Williamson, rh Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wood, Mike
Wragg, William
Wright, rh Jeremy

Tellers for the Ayes:
Jackie Doyle-Price
and
Guy Opperman

http://www.parliament.uk/business/publi ... known/988/

The whole Tory pack voting for Tory policy.
Their names I won't forget.
It's the people listed above making up the worst government in modern UK history.

JustMom · Post by **JustMom** » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:57 pm

Maybe Corbyn should remove the whip from the rebels.