Thursday 29th October 2015

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 5:08 pm

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 1 min1 minute ago

Talk in parliament of 15-20 Conservatives voting for the Labour backbench motion for tax credit rethink...& mitigation

glynn parry ‏@PARRY1956 1 min1 minute ago

motion passed by a majority of 215 on tax credits

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 5:19 pm

PorFavor wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Regarding job advisers posted in a food bank as a trial set to roll out across the UK...
Duncan Smith said:

“They are to provide support to people who come in and that can include people saying, ‘I haven’t had my payment’”, giving the example of a claimant whose money was delayed because officials had not seen the right documents. I asked how often is this happening, and they said: ‘Well, a bit.’ But what’s happening much more now is not people coming in with questions about their benefits, but they are actually interested in where [they] can find work.”

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... ncan-smith
And operating out of a foodbank rather than DWP offices with all the backup, systems etc that would presumably be to hand there, makes the DWP better at providing the service (that one must assume they have hitherto failed to deliver) how, exactly?

Iain Smith just talks bollocks and this doesn't stand up to scrutiny for one second. This annexing of foodbanks is an exercise the intimidation of the users, so far as I can see.

Edited

"for" for "in"

Edited again to change it back! Addled . . . .

(my bold)

Good point...it's inappropriate for Smith's DWP to set up shop in private charities. The people staffing foodbanks are regular people, for the most part. But fine endeavours get co-opted, don't they? Charities dispensing food like a controlled substance. I want no one going hungry, I want no one needing a prescription for food, I don't want foodbanks to become normal.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 5:20 pm

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 9m9 minutes ago
at PMQs, PM said: "there is absolutely no rebellion among Conservative MPs" ... now 15 plus MPs using symbolic vote to register concern

What bloody use is a 'symbolic vote' to register concern to those affected by this repulsive policy ... what hypocrites they are. And as for the PM .... see told you I wasn't in the mood for mincing my words today.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 5:22 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 1 min1 minute ago

Talk in parliament of 15-20 Conservatives voting for the Labour backbench motion for tax credit rethink...& mitigation

glynn parry ‏@PARRY1956 1 min1 minute ago

motion passed by a majority of 215 on tax credits

Thank you.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 5:26 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote: .... see told you I wasn't in the mood for mincing my words today.

Oh, pass them over here. I'll do it for you. I'm experienced in mincing (pulverising, even) words. It'll be no extra effort, believe me.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 5:28 pm

Personal insolvencies up for first time in a year

Third-quarter increase in England and Wales raises concerns about households struggling with debt even before interest rate rise (Guardian)

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/o ... rest-rates

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 5:30 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 9m9 minutes ago
at PMQs, PM said: "there is absolutely no rebellion among Conservative MPs" ... now 15 plus MPs using symbolic vote to register concern
What bloody use is a 'symbolic vote' to register concern to those affected by this repulsive policy ... what hypocrites they are. And as for the PM .... see told you I wasn't in the mood for mincing my words today.

Dave's not PM material.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 5:46 pm

citizenJA wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 9m9 minutes ago
at PMQs, PM said: "there is absolutely no rebellion among Conservative MPs" ... now 15 plus MPs using symbolic vote to register concern
What bloody use is a 'symbolic vote' to register concern to those affected by this repulsive policy ... what hypocrites they are. And as for the PM .... see told you I wasn't in the mood for mincing my words today.
Dave's not PM material.

Oh, I don't know - I think he'd be rather good at it . . . .

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 5:49 pm

Chris Ship ‏@chrisshipitv 2m2 minutes ago
20 Tory MPs have just opposed George Osborne on #taxcredits. They supported a motion urging government to look again at the cuts

I suppose - on reflection - a short reflection - this does rather cut the constitutional crisis narrative re the Lords down to size ... it makes it clear that their own MPs don't really support the tax credit cuts.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 5:51 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 9m9 minutes ago
at PMQs, PM said: "there is absolutely no rebellion among Conservative MPs" ... now 15 plus MPs using symbolic vote to register concern
What bloody use is a 'symbolic vote' to register concern to those affected by this repulsive policy ... what hypocrites they are. And as for the PM .... see told you I wasn't in the mood for mincing my words today.

My bold. thought that was good enough for Twitter....Hope you don't mind....

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 5:51 pm

citizenJA wrote:Regarding job advisers posted in a food bank as a trial set to roll out across the UK...
Duncan Smith said:

“They are to provide support to people who come in and that can include people saying, ‘I haven’t had my payment’”, giving the example of a claimant whose money was delayed because officials had not seen the right documents. I asked how often is this happening, and they said: ‘Well, a bit.’ But what’s happening much more now is not people coming in with questions about their benefits, but they are actually interested in where [they] can find work.”

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... ncan-smith

People referred to foodbanks don't go there for questions about their benefits, they go there for food.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 5:53 pm

PorFavor wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: What bloody use is a 'symbolic vote' to register concern to those affected by this repulsive policy ... what hypocrites they are. And as for the PM .... see told you I wasn't in the mood for mincing my words today.
Dave's not PM material.
Oh, I don't know - I think he'd be rather good at it . . . .

Sam Cam?
Is that you?

<I'm joking>

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 6:04 pm

TobyLatimer wrote:Thanks ephie. I wonder too how long it will be before people at food banks are sanctioned further with reductions in food supplies because they didn't apply for three jobs a week.

It would be something if the three jobs a week existed for these countless thousands of people to apply for, so tired of hearing of the 750,000 hypothetical jobs on offer. Everything is now so insane, if you are totally objective, all those people applying for jobs everyone knows don't really exist and that they won't ever get. All that human endeavour to get to this point! And at the same time people are proscribed from having creativity and inventiveness themselves, and can be prosecuted for trying to earn something through using their wits. If you tried you could not dream up something more dysfunctional. Which says a lot about those who did dream it up and who are actively imposing it. My goodness, we so desperately need change. I'm fresh from a conversation about the craziness of creating a food bank system and then creating the conditions of hunger that justify the need for them. But it's impossible to right those with their heads on backwards, the only people who can do that are themselves. I wish they'd hurry up with it.

Nuns in general taking a pasting today, I notice, along with Michelle Mone and the musical manufacturer of ersatz emotion. But I want the real perpetrators to be the ones in the firing line, they are not untouchables, so why in goodness name are the powers invested in the various arms if our society not being invoked? Surely election rigging through false promises has to be some kind of breach of duty?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 6:17 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 9m9 minutes ago
at PMQs, PM said: "there is absolutely no rebellion among Conservative MPs" ... now 15 plus MPs using symbolic vote to register concern
What bloody use is a 'symbolic vote' to register concern to those affected by this repulsive policy ... what hypocrites they are. And as for the PM .... see told you I wasn't in the mood for mincing my words today.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 15 mins15 minutes ago

fact that new intake MPs who won seats off LibDems have joined in, and numbers well above majority, that makes this a shot across bows...

Genuine question....Do you think he's right?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 6:22 pm

This is very good from Caroline Flint.

Caroline Flint ‏@CarolineFlintMP 11m11 minutes ago
Here's why Osborne got tax credit cuts so wrong - my blog for @HuffPostUK http://huff.to/1MkR4K8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 6:25 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 9m9 minutes ago
at PMQs, PM said: "there is absolutely no rebellion among Conservative MPs" ... now 15 plus MPs using symbolic vote to register concern
What bloody use is a 'symbolic vote' to register concern to those affected by this repulsive policy ... what hypocrites they are. And as for the PM .... see told you I wasn't in the mood for mincing my words today.

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 15 mins15 minutes ago

fact that new intake MPs who won seats off LibDems have joined in, and numbers well above majority, that makes this a shot across bows...
Genuine question....Do you think he's right?

Well as I said upthread it does further undermine the Osborne / Cameron shrieking about the Lords acting in an unconstitutional manner - it shows that their own MPs don't really support it. So yes - he may be right.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 6:25 pm

citizenJA wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Regarding job advisers posted in a food bank as a trial set to roll out across the UK...
Duncan Smith said:

“They are to provide support to people who come in and that can include people saying, ‘I haven’t had my payment’”, giving the example of a claimant whose money was delayed because officials had not seen the right documents. I asked how often is this happening, and they said: ‘Well, a bit.’ But what’s happening much more now is not people coming in with questions about their benefits, but they are actually interested in where [they] can find work.”

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... ncan-smith
People referred to foodbanks don't go there for questions about their benefits, they go there for food.

If it were me, it would feel as if I was having my nose rubbed in it.
Bad enough to have to literally throw yourself on someone's mercy for you and/or your children to survive. It's humiliating. God knows what those people who are forced to use food banks must feel.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 6:33 pm

I am going to skitter off topic for a mo. We're feeling rather chipper in the Riots household today (although it might not last long as Mr Riots is cooking this evening). We had our home check for adopting another dog yesterday and we've been told we've passed and our adoption is approved ... and we are now happily reorganising the 'dogs room' (Mr Riots also hangs out in there quite a bit) and costing up a new large or extra large dog bed with our local pet shop.

This new arrival is a bit of a tribute to Musica our wonderful pointer who died earlier this year. She's also coming from Spain. Hmmm - probably going to be needing another dog coat too if the forecast of a severe winter is correct.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 6:40 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Regarding job advisers posted in a food bank as a trial set to roll out across the UK...
People referred to foodbanks don't go there for questions about their benefits, they go there for food.
If it were me, it would feel as if I was having my nose rubbed in it.

Bad enough to have to literally throw yourself on someone's mercy for you and/or your children to survive. It's humiliating. God knows what those people who are forced to use food banks must feel.

I'm being fanciful now (aren't I?), but perhaps Iain Smith is looking to make more savings by docking the monetary value of anything people get from foodbanks from their benefits.

Edited to add

After all, it would be just like a voucher system (with no set-up costs), wouldn't it? Think of the scope for errors - IDS heaven!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 6:41 pm

Lucky dog to be joining such an animal loving household.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 6:41 pm

Angela Eagle ‏@angelaeagle Oct 28
Unbelievable Tory backbencher turns @UKLabour steel debate into a platform to deny existence of climate change #SaveOurSteel

Sadly all too believable.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 6:44 pm

PorFavor wrote:
I'm being fanciful now (aren't I?), but perhaps Iain Smith is looking to make more savings by docking the monetary value of anything people get from foodbanks from their benefits.

You might have to delete that post PF. Don't want to give the *****r any ideas.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 6:46 pm

yahyah wrote:Lucky dog to be joining such an animal loving household.

She is absolutely beautiful. We feel very lucky.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 6:48 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote: Genuine question....Do you think he's right?
Well as I said upthread it does further undermine the Osborne / Cameron shrieking about the Lords acting in an unconstitutional manner - it shows that their own MPs don't really support it. So yes - he may be right.
On the basis of past experience, my gut feeling is that any eventual rebellion won't be anywhere near that big... unless the whips' operation really is dire

It was 20 Tory MPs 'rebelling' - except it's not a binding vote so that's why it's being called 'symbolic' to register their concern at the policy. But I think it does send a message ... and does diminish the phony attack on the Lords.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 6:49 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
I'm being fanciful now (aren't I?), but perhaps Iain Smith is looking to make more savings by docking the monetary value of anything people get from foodbanks from their benefits.
You might have to delete that post PF. Don't want to give the *****r any ideas.

Yes - that crossed my mind, too.

Also, it occurred to me that it's a "good" way to reduce the figures for foodbank use. Frighten people off by having a "presence".

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 7:01 pm

I used to work with a mental health charity - MIND as it then was - for some time. We always had a cupboard stocked with a variety of food, nappies, bog roll and other essential items so we could provide people with an emergency bag of stuff - or even just a couple of tins - if necessary. It was all done very discreetly and pretty much with as little fuss or questioning as possible because people were usually in such a distressed state. Now - one of the main reasons people came to us - and came back again for further support - was because they knew we were independent of the council, the DSS as it was then, and the various government agencies and we would keep it confidential or on a strictly need to know basis. Getting further help from - or working with other agencies - was only possible if and when we had built up a trusting relationship with people coming in to us and with their advance permission (really serious over riding safety / risk situations exempted from that obviously). Something like this IDS scheme brought into one of our drop ins or clubs would probably have resulted in a mass exodus of the very people it was presumed to help. Big breach of trust - and would have affected other services run by the organisation too.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 7:06 pm

citizenJA wrote:
ephemerid wrote:It's a very short leap now from kind-hearted people feeding our poorest on a charitable basis to government interference in the food supply.

How quickly the narrative has changed - food from food banks was a "free good" not so very long ago; the ubiquitous DWP spokesbot has spent 5 years informing us that the safety net is there and nobody needs food banks; DWP stopped "referrals" and "signposts" instead; IDS and his acolytes have been denying to anyone who'll listen that there is any hunger in the UK; and now we have a well-meaning but idiotic nun, so concerned that the hungry people who come to her are there due to benefit issues, that she invites IDS to supply DWP staff to advise them on their rights - which, had they got them right in the first place, the claimants would not need the food bank.

There are already LAs, having to cover what used to be crisis loan provision administered centrally, using smart cards and supermarket-specific loaded cards (for food only) to control what our poor spend their pittance on; Mastercard and others are already in talks with DWP to offer "products" for Universal Credit claimants to manage their dwindling awards of benefit; and there has been much talk of "benefits-in-kind" (eg. free school meals etc) which may be deducted in cash terms from eventual Universal Credit payments.

I wonder how long it will be before DWP insist that all food charity recipients have to book in with them before they can access the food? There are some independent food banks which already refuse to give food to people who are sanctioned or who have what they judge to be a "chaotic lifestyle". As for hospitals running food banks, words fail me altogether.

This is sick.

This government will not intervene in the food industry to legislate on packaging, alcohol, sugar, fat - but it will happily interfere with food, donated by the public to help those in crisis, and how it is given to those who desperately need it.
Many, many thanks, Ephemerid.

IDS and his Tory government pretended foodbanks didn't exist for years. He refused acknowledgement and ignored pleas from foodbank charities for his assistance. Then Tory government said foodbanks were Labour's creation and Labour's fault. Then Tory government said the proliferation of foodbanks was caused by people choosing to get free food. An ugly lie, hard-pressed people require an authority granting a referral enabling only limited amounts of non-perishable, often inadequately nutritious food. Tory government lied about UK foodbanks during their nearly six years of leadership.

The UK is not at war, there's plenty of food and necessary work requiring employment and national infrastructure is still functional enough for everyone to choose their own food in their community. Foodbanks exist largely because Tory government have shrunk the UK's economy, reduced peoples' access to work and earnings and taken legally entitled social security provisions belonging to people away from them. Dump the Tory government policies enacted making the proliferation of foodbanks in the UK necessary.

Foodbanks will no longer be necessary when people who used to earn a living are properly employed again and social security provision is again appropriately distributed as it has successfully done for decades.

I will not accept the poverty you Tory bastards are intentionally inflicting onto people you couldn't care less about. What the devil are you Tories doing in government? You hate the country, the people, the institutions making the UK one of the finest countries in the world.

The proliferation of food banks happened as a result of Cameron endorsing the franchising of the Trussell Trust brand for £1500 to groups who were interested at the time, 2010. At that time there was an economic upturn and food bank users were largely the longterm disadvantaged, street sleepers, people with no housing who had fallen out of the care system and into adult life with inadequate support, and others who had fallen on hard times. They were not people in general who had been deliberately failed by the state, but rather those who had not been dealt with in any meaningful way. So at the time this sum for the franc he's was regarded as rather over the top, how would a local church for instance afford it, and why would they buy into it, when they were neither seeing the donations to match it or the numbers of people to warrant it. Nevertheless part of the franchise terms were that referrals to TT food banks were to come via job centres. A note to be precise. The terms too were very strict, only three referrals a year allowed and supplies offered limited to three days food. At this point in time there was no large scale roll out of sanctions, and the job centres were still operating much as they had done under Labour. The WRA was still in the future. Job centres still had proper advisors including disability advisors. A warning of what might come was Labours early reform for disabled peopl which included the now infamous changes to assessments, which they acknowledged they had got wrong before they left office, they testified to this later when the assessment came under heavy criticism for what they morphed into. Disability activists had flagged this up and documented it too. In fact it is all a matter of public record. Myself, I can remember watching Cameron on TVs with the head of TT and announcing the food bank initiative. I cannot date it but believe it was 2010, late summer or early autumn. It's a strong memory because I found it a creepy proposition, selling these franchises. I. Had a personal reason for feeling this way, my DLA provision was suddenly halted triggering a suspension of all my benefits except HB and CB, and we had been managing on that and a lot of lentils and rice, along with some dealings with service companies through a then very familiar debt management group I'd been advised to use. I managed like this for 10 months, it was later found that my files had been lost, I was fortunate in being back paid, but at the time the three days worth of food three times a year was the fall back if things got worse for me and my family. It was relevant news for me and I was paying attention. And found it chilling. I was caught in a mess, but it wasn't systemic, so why were they preparing or at least putting in provision for mass hunger then? I have to say that at the time I could have gone to a local church or gurdwara or even to a homeless charity, but used my knowledge of how to live cheaply instead, I grew veg and it was a year where doting started early. Even a year later when I was all sorted out, but doing some minor stuff with homeless people there was not a mass need. But the provision in job centres for it was there. So you can see that they knew what they were creating. If that isn't a matter for the UN I don't know what is.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 7:23 pm

PorFavor wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
citizenJA wrote: People referred to foodbanks don't go there for questions about their benefits, they go there for food.
If it were me, it would feel as if I was having my nose rubbed in it.

Bad enough to have to literally throw yourself on someone's mercy for you and/or your children to survive. It's humiliating. God knows what those people who are forced to use food banks must feel.
I'm being fanciful now (aren't I?), but perhaps Iain Smith is looking to make more savings by docking the monetary value of anything people get from foodbanks from their benefits.

Edited to add

After all, it would be just like a voucher system (with no set-up costs), wouldn't it? Think of the scope for errors - IDS heaven!

If I'm helping people get food at a foodbank charity and someone from DWP arrives on the premises by order of IDS without an invite or a warrant, I'll ask them to leave. If they refuse, I'll contact law enforcement to have them removed from the property. I will protect the identities of those people on the premises to best of my ability. No one sent on patrol by George Smith has a right to intrude upon a lawful, private, temporary foodbank for Smith's purposes.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 7:27 pm

Michael Savage ‏@michaelsavage 1m1 minute ago
Oldham council boss Jim McMahon puts name forward to be Labour candidate in Oldham West and Royton by-election http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

McMahon sounds good from this article.

And then:

Other potential candidates are also beginning to emerge.

Kate Godfrey, a previous parliamentary candidate for Stafford who has made headlines for her vocal criticism of Jeremy Corbyn and his supporters, has also said she would stand.

In a blog she said she had connections to Manchester and that ‘there was no-one better qualified to understand Devo Manc’ because she had spent six months studying it.

I suggest that with local press like that ... she might want to reconsider.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 7:32 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Angela Eagle ‏@angelaeagle Oct 28
Unbelievable Tory backbencher turns @UKLabour steel debate into a platform to deny existence of climate change #SaveOurSteel
Sadly all too believable.

Are you serious?
There are Tories denying climate change?
There are MPs denying climate change?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 7:41 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/voluntary-se ... ice-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kids Company pressed every funding button – but lost sight of kids it was set up to serve
Peter Beresford

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 7:56 pm

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analy ... -force-wom" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The government's cut in social housing rents will force women's refuges to close

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 7:57 pm

: n.jpg (85.48 KiB) Viewed 7722 times

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 8:01 pm

http://www.unitedresponse.org.uk/Blog/u ... -allowance" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

United Response holds the Government to account on cuts to Employment and Support Allowance.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 8:28 pm

Good information, thank you, RR2 for linking the article from Caroline Flint, very clear, knowledgeable

This summer, the Chancellor claimed that the cost of tax credits have risen from £1billion to £30billion today. This claim is simply bogus. Declan Gaffney and others have shown that the £1.1billion relates to only the first reforms, which only began in October 1999 - half way through the tax year and only covering 3 months of tax credit payment for a typical claimant. Indeed, in its first full year, 2000-2001, the cost of tax credits was more like £10.5billion; not £1.1billion.

So why has the tax credit bill increased? Tax credits include a number of previously separate benefits and were more generous. The tax credits we refer to today include childcare costs, introduced in 2003, which no previous Government had ever met.

The recession of 2008-9, had a dramatic effect on wages. As wages fell, many of those families either qualified for tax credits or saw their tax credits rise. During the Major recession, unemployment rose to 10.7% by 1993. Yet, in the deep recession of 2008-9, many employers reduced hours or didn't increase pay in order to keep staff in work. As a result, unemployment rose to a lower figure of 8.5%. Recent figures show the number of employees earning less than the living wage has risen by 45% since 2009.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/carolin ... mg00000067

I can't allow my Labour party loyalty to let this go.
What Flint writes below is myopic regarding tax credits.

Tax credits benefit employees. They are not simply a state hand out to low-paying employers as interestingly many Tories and some on the left have tried to claim.

When most employers are setting wages, they are blind to the private tax credit details of their employees. They cannot pay one worker one wage, and another a different rate because they claim tax credits. In most cases, the employer does not know.

(my bold)

What a load of credulous crap this last bit is. Employers setting wages may not have individual prospective employees tax credit status at hand, they don't need to - employers are very aware of how little they may pay people.

'They cannot pay one worker one wage and another a different based upon claimed tax credits...'
Employers can't pay one worker one wage and another a different based upon their gender...
Let's weave garlands of autumnal leaves to wear as we dance in arcadian bliss...

The autumnal garlands and arcadian bliss dancing is for real, the two other statements are theoretical, subject to real-world, hard-knock conditions.

I have no problem being wrong. Please let me know.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 8:32 pm

Hey, hey, hey! Well done, Jacob Rees-Mogg! Tory MP rebel!

Thank you, Heidi Allen.
Please find a better political party to join, that's my unsolicited advice to you.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 8:33 pm

Wayne David ‏@WayneDavid_MP 2m2 minutes ago Pilning, England
This evening 20 Tory MPs joined Lab to vote against cut in #taxcredits . Most Tories had gone home but it shows we're winning the argument.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 8:38 pm

citizenJA wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
ohsocynical wrote: If it were me, it would feel as if I was having my nose rubbed in it.

Bad enough to have to literally throw yourself on someone's mercy for you and/or your children to survive. It's humiliating. God knows what those people who are forced to use food banks must feel.
I'm being fanciful now (aren't I?), but perhaps Iain Smith is looking to make more savings by docking the monetary value of anything people get from foodbanks from their benefits.

Edited to add

After all, it would be just like a voucher system (with no set-up costs), wouldn't it? Think of the scope for errors - IDS heaven!
If I'm helping people get food at a foodbank charity and someone from DWP arrives on the premises by order of IDS without an invite or a warrant, I'll ask them to leave. If they refuse, I'll contact law enforcement to have them removed from the property. I will protect the identities of those people on the premises to best of my ability. No one sent on patrol by George Smith has a right to intrude upon a lawful, private, temporary foodbank for Smith's purposes.

There are lots of other food banks outside of the Trussell trust situation, and TBH I do not think that TT knew exactly what they were getting into, but I'm not sure that if various organisations are affiliated to them and have taken on their franchise terms that they are entirely independent, or indeed that the TT is in a position to resist any governmental changes imposed upon them. They are the most quoted providers of food through food banks, their reports are used to inform government and the media. And there is a history there. They also enable good work to be done. I used to think £1500 a year for that franchise, that would buy a lot of food if used differently, but these days I too wonder how much the food industry is now involved, for sure there is something not open about this process, and I know many working people also are pushed to using food banks, it's not just welfare - social security - recipients. And then there is still that restrictive condition that I know volunteer workers fen decide to bypass, the three times a year condition. There's this huge mass of other people working desperately to collect and distribute food, largely not really monitored in any real terms, all the homeless charities who distribute food in different ways, and in addition to that and only occasionAlly mentioned the work of faith organisations like the Quakers, Sikhs and Hindus, Islamic organisations, all of which will turn no one away if they are hungry, no matter who they are. Hunger and need are the criteria, not conditionality, origin or status. These other orgs are also dealing with those living on welfare cards, often very inadequate as so many have no cooking facilities, they also help provide cleaning products and personal hygiene items that people ditch uncertain status find hard to afford on their cards. And all this is without any of the barely documented children that teachers report, and their parents, mostly also working. And this before any tax credit implementation. I'm still waiting to see a single report of how our minority citizens are supporting their own, and the good work they are doing. For this I hold the media in total contempt.

That Cameron and co are unaware of this, the result of their policies, is not even credible, of course they know. When I pointed out that TT claim they did know know about this job advisor nonsense, I got a short sharp reply from someone I know well, who said they'd dealt with these (expletive) up close, and they'd do it anyway. Well let's see if they do or don't, but it won't surprise me, they've cushioned things for the last four years, and what other orgs are seeing rarely gets read by the mainstream, and other than reports like the Rowntree report, even their reports are rarely quoted or referenced. And even now, the homeless hesitate to go to such places, preferring to beg. It takes a lot to make a decision to do that.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 8:47 pm

HindleA wrote:http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analy ... -force-wom

The government's cut in social housing rents will force women's refuges to close

Out of University in the US, I was employed by county government helping homeless girls and women.
I'll never forget the impotent feelings of despair I experienced being unable to give everyone the physical safety homes provide.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 9:11 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Michael Savage ‏@michaelsavage 1m1 minute ago
Oldham council boss Jim McMahon puts name forward to be Labour candidate in Oldham West and Royton by-election http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ar_twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
McMahon sounds good from this article.

And then:
Other potential candidates are also beginning to emerge.

Kate Godfrey, a previous parliamentary candidate for Stafford who has made headlines for her vocal criticism of Jeremy Corbyn and his supporters, has also said she would stand.

In a blog she said she had connections to Manchester and that ‘there was no-one better qualified to understand Devo Manc’ because she had spent six months studying it.
I suggest that with local press like that ... she might want to reconsider.

Kate Godfrey was the Labour candidate for Stafford during the last GE; I'd not an opportunity to meet her. I don't know her.
She lost to Tory incumbent, Jeremy LeFroy, one of the Tory rebels on the vote this evening.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 9:24 pm

seeingclearly wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
ephemerid wrote:It's a very short leap now from kind-hearted people feeding our poorest on a charitable basis to government interference in the food supply.

How quickly the narrative has changed - food from food banks was a "free good" not so very long ago; the ubiquitous DWP spokesbot has spent 5 years informing us that the safety net is there and nobody needs food banks; DWP stopped "referrals" and "signposts" instead; IDS and his acolytes have been denying to anyone who'll listen that there is any hunger in the UK; and now we have a well-meaning but idiotic nun, so concerned that the hungry people who come to her are there due to benefit issues, that she invites IDS to supply DWP staff to advise them on their rights - which, had they got them right in the first place, the claimants would not need the food bank.

There are already LAs, having to cover what used to be crisis loan provision administered centrally, using smart cards and supermarket-specific loaded cards (for food only) to control what our poor spend their pittance on; Mastercard and others are already in talks with DWP to offer "products" for Universal Credit claimants to manage their dwindling awards of benefit; and there has been much talk of "benefits-in-kind" (eg. free school meals etc) which may be deducted in cash terms from eventual Universal Credit payments.

I wonder how long it will be before DWP insist that all food charity recipients have to book in with them before they can access the food? There are some independent food banks which already refuse to give food to people who are sanctioned or who have what they judge to be a "chaotic lifestyle". As for hospitals running food banks, words fail me altogether.

This is sick.

This government will not intervene in the food industry to legislate on packaging, alcohol, sugar, fat - but it will happily interfere with food, donated by the public to help those in crisis, and how it is given to those who desperately need it.
Many, many thanks, Ephemerid.

IDS and his Tory government pretended foodbanks didn't exist for years. He refused acknowledgement and ignored pleas from foodbank charities for his assistance. Then Tory government said foodbanks were Labour's creation and Labour's fault. Then Tory government said the proliferation of foodbanks was caused by people choosing to get free food. An ugly lie, hard-pressed people require an authority granting a referral enabling only limited amounts of non-perishable, often inadequately nutritious food. Tory government lied about UK foodbanks during their nearly six years of leadership.

The UK is not at war, there's plenty of food and necessary work requiring employment and national infrastructure is still functional enough for everyone to choose their own food in their community. Foodbanks exist largely because Tory government have shrunk the UK's economy, reduced peoples' access to work and earnings and taken legally entitled social security provisions belonging to people away from them. Dump the Tory government policies enacted making the proliferation of foodbanks in the UK necessary.

Foodbanks will no longer be necessary when people who used to earn a living are properly employed again and social security provision is again appropriately distributed as it has successfully done for decades.

I will not accept the poverty you Tory bastards are intentionally inflicting onto people you couldn't care less about. What the devil are you Tories doing in government? You hate the country, the people, the institutions making the UK one of the finest countries in the world.
The proliferation of food banks happened as a result of Cameron endorsing the franchising of the Trussell Trust brand for £1500 to groups who were interested at the time, 2010. At that time there was an economic upturn and food bank users were largely the longterm disadvantaged, street sleepers, people with no housing who had fallen out of the care system and into adult life with inadequate support, and others who had fallen on hard times. They were not people in general who had been deliberately failed by the state, but rather those who had not been dealt with in any meaningful way. So at the time this sum for the franc he's was regarded as rather over the top, how would a local church for instance afford it, and why would they buy into it, when they were neither seeing the donations to match it or the numbers of people to warrant it. Nevertheless part of the franchise terms were that referrals to TT food banks were to come via job centres. A note to be precise. The terms too were very strict, only three referrals a year allowed and supplies offered limited to three days food. At this point in time there was no large scale roll out of sanctions, and the job centres were still operating much as they had done under Labour. The WRA was still in the future. Job centres still had proper advisors including disability advisors. A warning of what might come was Labours early reform for disabled peopl which included the now infamous changes to assessments, which they acknowledged they had got wrong before they left office, they testified to this later when the assessment came under heavy criticism for what they morphed into. Disability activists had flagged this up and documented it too. In fact it is all a matter of public record. Myself, I can remember watching Cameron on TVs with the head of TT and announcing the food bank initiative. I cannot date it but believe it was 2010, late summer or early autumn. It's a strong memory because I found it a creepy proposition, selling these franchises. I. Had a personal reason for feeling this way, my DLA provision was suddenly halted triggering a suspension of all my benefits except HB and CB, and we had been managing on that and a lot of lentils and rice, along with some dealings with service companies through a then very familiar debt management group I'd been advised to use. I managed like this for 10 months, it was later found that my files had been lost, I was fortunate in being back paid, but at the time the three days worth of food three times a year was the fall back if things got worse for me and my family. It was relevant news for me and I was paying attention. And found it chilling. I was caught in a mess, but it wasn't systemic, so why were they preparing or at least putting in provision for mass hunger then? I have to say that at the time I could have gone to a local church or gurdwara or even to a homeless charity, but used my knowledge of how to live cheaply instead, I grew veg and it was a year where doting started early. Even a year later when I was all sorted out, but doing some minor stuff with homeless people there was not a mass need. But the provision in job centres for it was there. So you can see that they knew what they were creating. If that isn't a matter for the UN I don't know what is.

I clearly remember about that time there was an article in the local paper about our Tussell Trust food bank. They weren't appealing for funds but merely informing the locals about what they did. They were merely a safety net when people's Social Security payments were delayed...They saw barely 35 families a month...Now it's hundreds and the last article saw them appealing for food and a larger premises to cope with the demand.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 9:32 pm

seeingclearly wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
PorFavor wrote: I'm being fanciful now (aren't I?), but perhaps Iain Smith is looking to make more savings by docking the monetary value of anything people get from foodbanks from their benefits.

Edited to add

After all, it would be just like a voucher system (with no set-up costs), wouldn't it? Think of the scope for errors - IDS heaven!
If I'm helping people get food at a foodbank charity and someone from DWP arrives on the premises by order of IDS without an invite or a warrant, I'll ask them to leave. If they refuse, I'll contact law enforcement to have them removed from the property. I will protect the identities of those people on the premises to best of my ability. No one sent on patrol by George Smith has a right to intrude upon a lawful, private, temporary foodbank for Smith's purposes.
There are lots of other food banks outside of the Trussell trust situation, and TBH I do not think that TT knew exactly what they were getting into, but I'm not sure that if various organisations are affiliated to them and have taken on their franchise terms that they are entirely independent, or indeed that the TT is in a position to resist any governmental changes imposed upon them. They are the most quoted providers of food through food banks, their reports are used to inform government and the media. And there is a history there. They also enable good work to be done. I used to think £1500 a year for that franchise, that would buy a lot of food if used differently, but these days I too wonder how much the food industry is now involved, for sure there is something not open about this process, and I know many working people also are pushed to using food banks, it's not just welfare - social security - recipients. And then there is still that restrictive condition that I know volunteer workers fen decide to bypass, the three times a year condition. There's this huge mass of other people working desperately to collect and distribute food, largely not really monitored in any real terms, all the homeless charities who distribute food in different ways, and in addition to that and only occasionAlly mentioned the work of faith organisations like the Quakers, Sikhs and Hindus, Islamic organisations, all of which will turn no one away if they are hungry, no matter who they are. Hunger and need are the criteria, not conditionality, origin or status. These other orgs are also dealing with those living on welfare cards, often very inadequate as so many have no cooking facilities, they also help provide cleaning products and personal hygiene items that people ditch uncertain status find hard to afford on their cards. And all this is without any of the barely documented children that teachers report, and their parents, mostly also working. And this before any tax credit implementation. I'm still waiting to see a single report of how our minority citizens are supporting their own, and the good work they are doing. For this I hold the media in total contempt.

That Cameron and co are unaware of this, the result of their policies, is not even credible, of course they know. When I pointed out that TT claim they did know know about this job advisor nonsense, I got a short sharp reply from someone I know well, who said they'd dealt with these (expletive) up close, and they'd do it anyway. Well let's see if they do or don't, but it won't surprise me, they've cushioned things for the last four years, and what other orgs are seeing rarely gets read by the mainstream, and other than reports like the Rowntree report, even their reports are rarely quoted or referenced. And even now, the homeless hesitate to go to such places, preferring to beg. It takes a lot to make a decision to do that.

It's depressing me that I can't afford to donate as much to our local food bank this year...I never started my Christmas shopping until I'd done that in memory of my mum. She used to get very distressed and guilty thinking about those who couldn't even afford a bit of extra food for Christmas.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 10:34 pm

Ohso, the Trussell Trust franchisees all took up their franchises in good faith, they were manpinly groups already in existence and doing good work. The branding was supposed to give them some added ligitimacy, I have no idea whether it did or not, but for certain people know the name means food bank. I

It's awful to think about hunger at Christmas though the worst times for both donations and for need are not Christmas, but between the New Year through to the end of February.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 10:53 pm

citizenJA wrote:Hey, hey, hey! Well done, Jacob Rees-Mogg! Tory MP rebel!

Thank you, Heidi Allen.
Please find a better political party to join, that's my unsolicited advice to you.

Blimey. Maybe that e-mail I sent Rees-Mogg expressing my concerns about the tax credit cuts wasn't such a waste of time after all. He responded by letter to explain that the cuts would be offset by the national living wage and free childcare. Is it possible Osborne has actually been bullshitting his own MPs, let alone the public? It always seemed quite a reach to me for Cameron and Osborne to expect right-wingers to support what is in effect a reduction in the incentive to work. It's one of the very few things they genuinely seem to believe in.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 11:04 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 13851.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Government is planning to scrap lifetime security of tenure for renters in council and housing association properties, according to industry reports.

Inside Housing magazine reports that the Government wants to restrict new social tenants to five-year long tenancies.

General opinion seems to be that private rental contracts need to be longer to give tenants more security so what does this government want to do? Make social housing contracts shorter, of course!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 30 Oct, 2015 12:00 am

Willow904 wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 13851.html
The Government is planning to scrap lifetime security of tenure for renters in council and housing association properties, according to industry reports.

Inside Housing magazine reports that the Government wants to restrict new social tenants to five-year long tenancies.
General opinion seems to be that private rental contracts need to be longer to give tenants more security so what does this government want to do? Make social housing contracts shorter, of course!

Current government aren't good for most people.

One last thing before I say goodnight, I don't trust Tories, ever. I don't trust government leadership in place since 2010. The policies, actions, promises and lies by current government, a Tory government, have convinced me I'm wise to distrust them. I wish I were wrong. I wish I were wrong. Tory government have relentlessly acted unconscionably, unnecessarily degrading the physical and social welfare of the people. Fewer quality homes, insecure tenure, badly paid jobs, bad employment conditions, whacking away at the relatively modest amounts of money that support people who're not born independently wealthy and require support, young people aren't being educated in a manner befitting a wealthy nation's capability. Fossil fuel ventures risky are pursued while renewable energy investment is torn away. These are crazy decisions to make. This is madness.

I'm very tired now.
Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

Hobiejoe · Post by **Hobiejoe** » Fri 30 Oct, 2015 12:37 am

Sneaked out late at night (hello from one of Team Nightbird *wave*), but this has "dodgy" written all over it - and the Beeb blaming it all on care failures. And slap bang in the middle of it is the expectation that people with learning difficulties and ASD would be queuing up to buy their own houses.

This is just madness - my lad is somewhere on the spectrum (ongoing shit, even leafy Devon has had it's child services budget cut by half over the last five years, and what's left is outsourced to Virgin "Healthcare" and Babcock bloody Engineering), but generally copes, and we can't really see him buying a house. How someone who needs full time care is going to manage beggars belief.

Anyhoo, here 'tis:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34667806

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 30 Oct, 2015 1:12 am

There was a successful system ,that largely worked,with the pooling of resources from various means that facilitated independence in the community,rather than institutions.....