Monday 9th November 2015

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 5:52 am

Good morning to all

Thanks to Tubby for joining the interesting discussion from yesterday, just a bit late for me

I sympathise with the points he made and that some of the 'baggage' of Corbyn makes things a bit difficult. I also agree with him that Corbyn's behaviour as leader - if taken in isolation - has been pretty good and he has maintained his dignity whilst others have lost theirs

In say that, however, I think there is a danger we try to idealise the situation by suggesting there were options for those of a more left-wing point of view

There was not!

There were only 4 candidates to vote for at the leadership election and 3 of those instinctively reacted to the May defeat by standing on a right-wing program repudiating the baby steps to the left made by Miliband. This was particularly the case with Kendall

Two of those candidates had been part of the Government for a number of years and carried a lot of baggage themselves which made some of us reticent about supporting them

Also, the PLP is much to the right of where it should be if the membership was taken into account - Cooper and Burnham were not massively out of kilter but Kendall was - and the subsequent actions and behaviour of that wing of the party has been pretty poor. The Kendall supporters or those sympathetic to her approach have a far higher representation in the PLP than the support in the membership, or the country, would suggest. It seems they do not want to accept that

The final point I want to make before heading off is that this idealised, non.-threatening left-wing candidate mentioned by Tubby last night was missing on the voting slip. I am sure many of us would rather support a Corbyn sans baggage but there wasn't anyone. In fact all such potential candidates had been 'purged' during the Blair years through the party management of candidate lists. Only in 2010 was there the start of a move back to the left - and even then hardly radical

The best compromise we had was Ed Miliband and he was undermined...who by? Yes, the same people undermining Corbyn - this to me suggests it is the PLP who is out of step

Corbyn is doing the best job possible in truly difficult circumstances. He has too much baggage but that is not surprising after 30 years....but he is the only choice we were given to move back to the left and at least we are discussing things we haven't done since the early Thatcher years - something that would not have happened under any other leader. let us hope whoever replaces him (possibly prior to 2020) will have the base necessary to launch a true centre-left program.

Post by **refitman** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 7:09 am

Morning all.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 7:19 am

Norman Smith on what's occurring today

[youtube]465_-A3gcSw[/youtube]

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 7:21 am

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TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 7:24 am

Peter Oborne says George Osborne "Has frequently tried to get IDS sacked"

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yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 8:16 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 26591.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'Disrespectful' Corbyn paid respect to veterans in his own way.
Funny how the rabid right wing/Murdoch media didn't manage to report that.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 8:24 am

It is just so depressing.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 8:27 am

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ay-cartoon

Rowson excellent as usual, ''Call up the Simon Danczuk Pals Battalion''.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 9:25 am

Househunting ?

I can't decide to go for an apartment at the BBC, or a cosy old nick. Pentonville looked nice.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... ntre-homes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot00956.jpg (96.1 KiB) Viewed 13185 times

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 9:41 am

Morning all.

An excerpt from the Waugh Zone daily email:

... after his Lords rebuff over tax credits, the Chancellor is back to his robust self and today has an Imperial College speech setting out his big principles behind the spending cuts. This morning’s hot news is that not only have four departments agreed cuts, but those cuts are an average of 30% by 2020. Yes, that’s more than the 25% minimum asked by Osborne and represents a massive squeeze. DoT, DCLG (more pain for councils), Defra and the Treasury itself are the depts. ‘We are still spending too much’ the Chancellor will say.

Defra is already completely incompetent, not fit for purpose, in my book. They offered up large cuts under Spelman in a bid to curry favour - look how well that went for her and them.

I dread to think how Defra and the other departments will be 'managing' post cuts of this magnitude. I wonder what 'sell offs', give aways and outsourcing options are also in these particular packages.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 9:47 am

Here's the rest of that particular section of the email ... because there's a lot of food for thought in there.

... The PM has his own speech at the CBI this morning and will set out his own backing for the Chancellor. Still, as the Sunday Times made plain yesterday, some ministers are holding out and have submitted spending cuts of less than the requested 25% (let alone the 40% higher poker bid): Nicky Morgan and Theresa May among them.

And IDS is still not happy at suggestions his Universal Credit could be tapered to provide cash to bail out the Treasury over tax credits cuts. Philip Hammond yesterday didn’t deny IDS was upset:
“We all have robust discussions with the Chancellor…Of course, people fight their corner and seek to sway the agenda.” I’m told IDS isn’t going to walk but will dig in.

On tax credits, note that Osborne is sticking to his 2019 surplus plan today too - so that’s one option for wriggle room removed. But the FT reports something very significant: Whitehall and Treasury sources say low interest rates have handed Osborne a windfall that means his cuts won’t have to be as severe to get a surplus...

In a way I almost hope Osborne does really wreck UC ... once the punitive clawback on many workers and those not in work starts to bite it won't be pretty - should be another bite mark on his arse.

If his cuts won't have to be so severe ... what the hell are Defra, DCLG, DoT and the Treasury doing offering up 30% cuts ... and why does he need to go after UC and those on tax credits? His narrative is swaying all over the place. Please Labour - get preparing the attack responses to his Autumn fantasy statement.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 10:07 am

Caron, cheerleader of LDV, on top form.

Three reasons why you should go to Oldham West for your own good
http://www.libdemvoice.org/three-reason ... 48169.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... Feel the Lib Dem Buzz
Once you’ve felt the vibe of a Lib Dem by-election hq, you will never want to miss another one. It’s great fun, you meet people from all over the country whom you wouldn’t necessarily meet at Conference and it’s actually good for the soul. My first by-election was Littleborough and Saddleworth (which is the neighbouring seat to what is now Oldham West) back in 1995. I met people there who are friends to this day. We only went to help for a day and then go on to have a bit of a touring holiday but we ended up staying for the whole week and went back for several weekends and the last week because we were having such a good time.

People have even met their partners at by-elections. I was particularly proud at playing “Cilla” during the Livingston by-election to a couple who celebrated their seventh wedding anniversary last week...

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 10:21 am

This morning's front page of the Sun is a lie. I mean, an actual flat out LIE.

Surely something needs to be done about that?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 10:27 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:This morning's front page of the Sun is a lie. I mean, an actual flat out LIE.

Surely something needs to be done about that?

JeremyCorbyn4PM ‏@JeremyCorbyn4PM 3h3 hours ago
.@TheSun newspaper run with an out-and-out lie on their front page this morning.RT if you think this is unacceptable

I agree but what more than a complaint to IPSO can be done without inflaming this non issue (or what should be a completely non issue) to levels that will have Cameron and Osborne rubbing their hands in glee? Difficult one.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 10:29 am

Good morfternoon.

I caught a couple of those government TV ads (worth every penny, by the way) over the weekend.

Apparently businesses can export stuff if they want to. Who knew?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 10:34 am

A stand needs to be made at some point, methinks.

Even the likes of "Ed's dad hated Britain" can be spun as legitimate opinion, not a fib. The claim this morning is simply false - AS ACTUAL FOOTAGE OF THE EVENT PROVES!

If not now, when?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 10:34 am

Flip Chart Rick on the TU Bill.
https://flipchartfairytales.wordpress.c ... -that-one/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Talk of banning wildcat strikes is ridiculous because wildcat strikes are, by definition, already banned. I suspect that Boris knows this and is simply using the term as a smear.

He should be careful what he wishes for because the more difficult you make it to strike within the law, the more likely people are to resort to wildcat action. The trouble with wildcat strikes is that they a lot more difficult to manage than official ones.

Some nice suggestions for illegal action in there.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 10:45 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:A stand needs to be made at some point, methinks.

Even the likes of "Ed's dad hated Britain" can be spun as legitimate opinion, not a fib. The claim this morning is simply false - AS ACTUAL FOOTAGE OF THE EVENT PROVES!

If not now, when?

Labour does need to tackle this, because it is defamatory and untrue, cynically and obviously calculated to inflame opinion against him. Not every one has access to social media such as Twitter where these stories are challenged.

In other news, Corbyn was reported as being the only party leader to stay behind to applaud the veterans while the others went for a VIP lunch.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 10:46 am

So far, Aung San Suu Kyi's NDL Party has won 15 out of the 16 seats declared... (Live blog)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2 ... at-victory

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 10:50 am

nickyinnorfolk wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:A stand needs to be made at some point, methinks.

Even the likes of "Ed's dad hated Britain" can be spun as legitimate opinion, not a fib. The claim this morning is simply false - AS ACTUAL FOOTAGE OF THE EVENT PROVES!

If not now, when?
Labour does need to tackle this, because it is defamatory and untrue, cynically and obviously calculated to inflame opinion against him. Not every one has access to social media such as Twitter where these stories are challenged.

In other news, Corbyn was reported as being the only party leader to stay behind to applaud the veterans while the others went for a VIP lunch.

And the BBC showed him there, during their broadcast of the morning's events on BBC One. They showed the Duke of Cambridge (William) taking the salute as the march reached Horseguards and cut away to show Jeremy Corbyn still applauding the veterans passing by whilst two women appeared to be interviewing him.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 10:53 am

Nicholas Witchell, BBC correspondent for toadying to the Royals (although Charles was once overheard saying he couldn't stand him), made snide comments about Corbyn re the Cenotaph ceremony. He informed us that 'some sang the National Anthem more enthusiastically than others' and some other nonsense. That's quite insidious because of the faux innocent way it was presented.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 10:56 am

Ah yes, "the poison carrot" as he is known by some of his colleagues

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 10:58 am

The Right Whingers are just desperate to see Corbyn as Michael Foot Mark II, seeing this bow business as his donkey jacket moment. Of course Foot's coat was not a donkey jacket, it was a warm car coat (which the Queen Mum herself felt moved to compliment for looking cosy and smart).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 11:11 am

Yes, but my point is that this is an outright palpable untruth. It crosses the (metaphorical unseen) line.

As I said, however outrageous it was "Ed's dad hated Britain" could be spun as legitimate comment if you were desperate enough.

This is a LIE, absolutely provably so - and IMO legal action would be fully justified. I genuinely can't see how the Currant Bun would have a leg to stand on.......

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 11:18 am

Nice piece in the HuffPost regarding a Spurs fan approaching Corbyn while he was waiting outside the Arsenal stadium.

"I'm a Spurs fan Mr Corbyn," the man said, shaking Corbyn's hand sincerely, and adding, "You've got to be our Prime Minister."

He then leaned in further and said emphatically, "You have to be".

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11 ... 08460.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 11:26 am

Brooks has some brass neck making a (non) issue on how to respect dead servicemen & women

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nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 11:28 am

The HuffPost also reports on reaction to the Sun front page.

In a post amassing more than 2,000 retweets on Twitter, the team behind the #JezWeCan campaign - which backs Corbyn to be prime minister in 2020 but doesn't represent him or the Labour Party - derided the allegations as an "out-and-out lie", encouraging his supporters to help spread their counter-attack to the article.

.@TheSun newspaper run with an out-and-out lie on their front page this morning.RT if you think this is unacceptable pic.twitter.com/U0orSemrJ3
â�� JeremyCorbyn4PM (@JeremyCorbyn4PM) November 9, 2015

Several media pundits also piled in to voice their concern, with one journalist from BuzzFeed UK lambasting The Sun for printing "the most absurd front page I've seen in a very long time".

This, bearing in mind Jeremy Corbyn did actually bow, is the most absurd front page I've seen in a very long time. pic.twitter.com/HBsTDK8s5M
— Jamie Ross (@JamieRoss7) November 8, 2015

Another, pointing to Corbyn's parents both having played their part in the war effort, commented: "He does really not deserve those kinds of front pages."

Corbyn's mother was an Air Raid Warden and his father a member of the Home Guard. He does really not deserve those kinds of front pages.
â�� Ned Donovan (@Ned_Donovan) November 8, 2015

Others wondered whether the Labour leader could have ever done enough to placate Sun editors.

You do rather get the feeling Corbyn could have crawled to the cenotaph on bloodied knees and it wouldn't have been enough
â�� Jessica Elgot (@jessicaelgot) November 9, 2015

"Mr Corbyn was also criticised for a message that paid tribute to the victims of all wars, rather than just Britain's." The bastard.
â�� Adam Bienkov (@AdamBienkov) November 9, 2015

Corbyn bowed, applauded veterans and his wreath said "Let us resolve to create a world of peace"

The Sun lie again. pic.twitter.com/hez3EfpLHQ
— George Aylett (@GeorgeAylett) November 9, 2015

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11 ... _hp_ref=uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 11:37 am

Keep it classy, Tories.

The arch-Thatcherite leading attacks on Jeremy Corbyn for ‘failing to bow enough’ at the Cenotaph yesterday previously complained about elderly army veterans ‘taking up park benches’ in his town — and even defended a fellow Tory MP who bought a Nazi uniform.

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2015/11/t ... more-55558" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 11:38 am

Respect the deceased. Ain't that the truth

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AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 11:42 am

Some people thought the Sun woud get away with that, too.......

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 11:44 am

Morning all. Internet back on after having had bedroom carpet fitted.

Newspaper editor whose owner lives abroad accusing people who are paid far less than him of greed? Surely not!

When someone said that Dacre isn't paid by the taxpayer, SF pointed out that greed was greed no matter who is paying...

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 11:50 am

nickyinnorfolk wrote:Nice piece in the HuffPost regarding a Spurs fan approaching Corbyn while he was waiting outside the Arsenal stadium.

"I'm a Spurs fan Mr Corbyn," the man said, shaking Corbyn's hand sincerely, and adding, "You've got to be our Prime Minister."

He then leaned in further and said emphatically, "You have to be".

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11 ... 08460.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the photostream on that page:

It's number 34 of 49 and is by Gareth Fuller/PA Wire

Edit to add credits

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 11:50 am

Did Leveson even happen ?

[youtube]Toy65PmdElo[/youtube]

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 11:54 am

Leveson's proposals are still there, waiting to be implemented.

One legitimate cause for disappointment in Jez is that he doesn't seem to show much interest in this stuff (unlike Ed)

Maybe that could change?

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 12:29 pm

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

I caught a couple of those government TV ads (worth every penny, by the way) over the weekend.

Apparently businesses can export stuff if they want to. Who knew?

Morfters, Por.

I commented on this the other day - the "Exporting Is Great" campaign cost £2.4 Million when it was launched in November 2013; what we are seeing now is a re-run (cost unknown, but it is on prime-time telly - ads shown during shows like the X-Factor cost between £100,000 and £200,000; evening peak times on C4, a public service broadcaster, s £7,500 per 30 seconds)

The workplace pensions hairy monster ad campaign has cost £8.5 Million. So far.

Ten million-plus quid of our money.......that's more than a hundred senior NHS consultants; 400 newly-qualified doctors, nurses, or teachers; or 137,000 JSA payments.

Just for context, like.

----------------------------------------------

Today, I have mostly been incensed by Osborne's alleged anger at the MASSIVE salaries paid to CEOs in the public sector.

The highest-paid chief in government is Ian Nolan, head of the government's very own Green Investment Bank. He gets £330,000PA.

Obviously, Cameron's 26 SPADs can't be paid as much as he is; that's why he gets £142,000PA and poor Craig Oliver and Ed Llewellyn have to make do with a measly £140,000PA.

Still, it's that Martin Sorrell I feel sorry for. All he got last year was a piddling £1,500,000PA and a little parcel of extras giving him an annual package of £43,000,000.
But then, he's in the private sector, where wages are realistic and not like the inflated salaries in the public sector and pensions very poor unlike the gold-plated public sector yadda yadda yadda.......

If Cameron had poor Martin's money, he could employ 307 Craigs!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 12:44 pm

The insulting rubbish about Corbyn's bow has another aspect.

There were veterans of the WW2 Far East campaign there yesterday.
One of them, a prisoner of the Japanese, laid a wreath.

My father-in-law also spent years as a prisoner of war at the hands of the Japanese military.

One of the punishments meted out in the prison of war camps, often a bash with the end of a rifle butt, was for not bowing to their Japanese captors with sufficient respect.
British and other women, also imprisoned after the fall of Singapore, were forced to bow with the required level of respect.

Yes, getting monstered by a lying, hypocritical, often criminal outfit like the Murdoch press is a lot better than a beating or potentially fatal time in the hot box, but hardly a sign of that much progress is it ?

It is all getting beyond a joke. Rebekah Brooks should feel ashamed of herself after the awful things the Murdoch press have done involving the military, but that would presume she is capable of such a thing.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 12:52 pm

ephemerid wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

I caught a couple of those government TV ads (worth every penny, by the way) over the weekend.

Apparently businesses can export stuff if they want to. Who knew?

Morfters, Por.

I commented on this the other day - the "Exporting Is Great" campaign cost £2.4 Million when it was launched in November 2013; what we are seeing now is a re-run (cost unknown, but it is on prime-time telly - ads shown during shows like the X-Factor cost between £100,000 and £200,000; evening peak times on C4, a public service broadcaster, s £7,500 per 30 seconds)

The workplace pensions hairy monster ad campaign has cost £8.5 Million. So far.

Ten million-plus quid of our money.......that's more than a hundred senior NHS consultants; 400 newly-qualified doctors, nurses, or teachers; or 137,000 JSA payments.

Just for context, like.

----------------------------------------------

Today, I have mostly been incensed by Osborne's alleged anger at the MASSIVE salaries paid to CEOs in the public sector.

The highest-paid chief in government is Ian Nolan, head of the government's very own Green Investment Bank. He gets £330,000PA.

Obviously, Cameron's 26 SPADs can't be paid as much as he is; that's why he gets £142,000PA and poor Craig Oliver and Ed Llewellyn have to make do with a measly £140,000PA.

Still, it's that Martin Sorrell I feel sorry for. All he got last year was a piddling £1,500,000PA and a little parcel of extras giving him an annual package of £43,000,000.
But then, he's in the private sector, where wages are realistic and not like the inflated salaries in the public sector and pensions very poor unlike the gold-plated public sector yadda yadda yadda.......

If Cameron had poor Martin's money, he could employ 307 Craigs!

Yes - it all makes you want to spit in your beer, doesn't it?

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 1:15 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Caron, cheerleader of LDV, on top form.

Three reasons why you should go to Oldham West for your own good
http://www.libdemvoice.org/three-reason ... 48169.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... Feel the Lib Dem Buzz
Once you’ve felt the vibe of a Lib Dem by-election hq, you will never want to miss another one. It’s great fun, you meet people from all over the country whom you wouldn’t necessarily meet at Conference and it’s actually good for the soul. My first by-election was Littleborough and Saddleworth (which is the neighbouring seat to what is now Oldham West) back in 1995. I met people there who are friends to this day. We only went to help for a day and then go on to have a bit of a touring holiday but we ended up staying for the whole week and went back for several weekends and the last week because we were having such a good time.

People have even met their partners at by-elections. I was particularly proud at playing “Cilla” during the Livingston by-election to a couple who celebrated their seventh wedding anniversary last week...

Sheeeesh. The past is another country, Caron. It was before the LibDems destroyed whatever credibility they ever had.

It took me a while to figure out what she meant about playing 'Cilla'. Of course if you're in a 90s time warp, like herself, you'd know immediately she was referring to Blind Date. I thought for a bit she'd got a sideline as a LibDem Cilla tribute act ...

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 1:22 pm

Well, Por Favor, I can only dream of spitting in my beer (recovering alkie) but you can do it for me while we play Bingo.

We will have to do this on our (in my case, at least) taxpayer-funded Samsung Galaxy wotever smartfones whilst watching Jeremy Kyle on our 54" plasma TVs. If you get the pasties (not liable for extra VAT) I'll get the double chocolate gattox from Iceland.....

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 1:25 pm

This is apropos of nothing at all, but -

Does anyone here remember the recent incident, in some flash area of London, of a sofa which fell from a balcony? The sofa seriously injured a passer-by, and the circumstances were under investigation but I've heard nothing. I ask because it put me in mind of the fire extinguisher incident - the one where no one was injured - and we all know how that ended.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 1:28 pm

But that involved a five star hotel, and a luxury penthouse PF.
Can't be bothering the well off with things like health and safety investigations.
Not good for wealth creation.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 1:35 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Here's the rest of that particular section of the email ... because there's a lot of food for thought in there.

... The PM has his own speech at the CBI this morning and will set out his own backing for the Chancellor. Still, as the Sunday Times made plain yesterday, some ministers are holding out and have submitted spending cuts of less than the requested 25% (let alone the 40% higher poker bid): Nicky Morgan and Theresa May among them.

And IDS is still not happy at suggestions his Universal Credit could be tapered to provide cash to bail out the Treasury over tax credits cuts. Philip Hammond yesterday didn’t deny IDS was upset:
“We all have robust discussions with the Chancellor…Of course, people fight their corner and seek to sway the agenda.” I’m told IDS isn’t going to walk but will dig in.

On tax credits, note that Osborne is sticking to his 2019 surplus plan today too - so that’s one option for wriggle room removed. But the FT reports something very significant: Whitehall and Treasury sources say low interest rates have handed Osborne a windfall that means his cuts won’t have to be as severe to get a surplus...
In a way I almost hope Osborne does really wreck UC ... once the punitive clawback on many workers and those not in work starts to bite it won't be pretty - should be another bite mark on his arse.

If his cuts won't have to be so severe ... what the hell are Defra, DCLG, DoT and the Treasury doing offering up 30% cuts ... and why does he need to go after UC and those on tax credits? His narrative is swaying all over the place. Please Labour - get preparing the attack responses to his Autumn fantasy statement.

This is at the heart of why I was asking a few weeks ago, " Where is all the money going?", because already existing or not that 'money' is being identified and removed from public view. THe above seems to indicate that GO calls the shots on this, in cahoots with Cameron, but it doesnt equate to normal accounting, watching a PAC meeting is a bizarre experience, few answer are ever extracted from ministers on real figures, and their frustration is palpable, especially on the subject of the sale of public assets. Don't ask for examples, I haven't that kind of memory, I retain a flavour of these meetings, not the meat and veg, but an obvious person who others will have watched is IDS, there was in coalition days Gove, but others too. I've got my own ideas on this, because theres something that is really not right about this, but would like to know what others think.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 1:48 pm

ResolutionFoundation ‏@resfoundation 28m28 minutes ago
Over 1 in 3 women in their 20s set to earn less than the living wage next year - over 3 times more likely than men in their 40s #EqualPayDay

Michael ‏@TheRightArticle 29m29 minutes ago
Equal Pay Day: Government efforts to address the gender gap are 'failing older women'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/eq ... 26926.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 2:08 pm

ephemerid wrote:Well, Por Favor, I can only dream of spitting in my beer (recovering alkie) but you can do it for me while we play Bingo.

We will have to do this on our (in my case, at least) taxpayer-funded Samsung Galaxy wotever smartfones whilst watching Jeremy Kyle on our 54" plasma TVs. If you get the pasties (not liable for extra VAT) I'll get the double chocolate gattox from Iceland.....

Whilst having tattoos done and smoking?* I'm in.

*According to a woman vox-popped by that bloke with the mood-box on DP, today, this "proves 'they' don't really need the money" thus her popping a ball into 'too much.' Mind you, the final result was more or less even with just a couple of balls tipping it for the 'too much' side...

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 2:09 pm

Listened to some Radio 4 discussion about the European Union and our relationship with it yesterday ... the point was made that behind the 'negotiation' demand that the EU recognises it will have more than one currency operating in it is Osborne and the City's determination to hang on to their role of being the financial centre of Europe. At the moment most of the trading of Euros is done here in the City. If we don't get the desired concession from the other EU states - and probably almost certainly if Brexit happens - that may well change and most of the trading in Euros and thus financial services hub may well shift to other European cities.

Meanwhile - as we hear today of a further 800 jobs being lost in the supply chain companies in the wake of the Redcar steel closure (and probably at least that amount gone in the small businesses that rely on the community being able to spend in their shop, cafe etc) - and the construction sector going backwards in terms of growth - it becomes ever more evident that the balancing of our economy has not been achieved. It may be even more out of kilter than in 2010 when Osborne and co insisted they were going to rebalance it and heralded the 'march of the makers'.

So - here is my heresy question. What do we think might happen to our economy if the banks / financial services shift away and we are no longer the clear financial services capital of Europe?

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 2:12 pm

I only just picked this up from facebook a day late, It was sent around 9.45 yesterday morning, had a photo of the Wilfred Owen poem Futility, and over 19,000 likes.

" Today we remember the fallen in all wars, both servicemen and women and civilians. On the 70th anniversary of the end of the Second World War, we honour in particular those who gave their lives to defeat fascism. In their memory, and that of all who have suffered or lost their lives in war, let us resolve to build a world of peace.

This morning I'll be at the Remembrance Sunday service at the Cenotaph and in the afternoon, like most years, I'll be at North Islington war memorial in Manor Gardens, built on the site of the former Royal Northern casualty hospital. I will be reading the poem “Futility,” written by Wilfred Owen, who died shortly before the end of the First World War."

edited to remove bold tag that didn't work, trying to catch text impossible so my attemp was from 'in the afternoon..... to the end of the sentence.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 2:21 pm

Many thanks refitman, not just for this, but all the stuff you do here.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 2:26 pm

Beth Rigby ‏@BethRigby 1m1 minute ago
Alex Dyke, Radio Solent: "My point was fat chavvy mums with boobs out on buses isn't a good look A classy discreet mum is absolutely fine"

Dear oh dear .... commiserations if that is your local BBC radio station PF. That has everything you need to know about the presenter packed into it, eh.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 2:27 pm

Afternoon,
Apologies if this would be better posted in the pub,
(but scared of all the spitting in beer, currently going off there)

Whilst prevaricating before getting round to some paperwork yesterday, I found some letters home from ww1, from a gt.gt uncle, to his mother.

So slightly bizarrely, but fittingly for the day, spent early morning reading them.

They were eloquent & gentle, mentioning but making light of his own experiences, worrying about bombing raids back home (ramsgate), concerned for the declining health of a brother (discharged with injuries), and in his final letter, comforting words on hearing of his brothers death.

I didn't think he'd have been allowed to give any view on the rights/wrongs of the war but in his penultimate letter he mentions '.. needless waste of lives and property'.

I've searched on web & found other more recent uses of the phrase, but wondered where the original quote comes from. Please, does anyone know?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 2:36 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Listened to some Radio 4 discussion about the European Union and our relationship with it yesterday ... the point was made that behind the 'negotiation' demand that the EU recognises it will have more than one currency operating in it is Osborne and the City's determination to hang on to their role of being the financial centre of Europe. At the moment most of the trading of Euros is done here in the City. If we don't get the desired concession from the other EU states - and probably almost certainly if Brexit happens - that may well change and most of the trading in Euros and thus financial services hub may well shift to other European cities.

Meanwhile - as we hear today of a further 800 jobs being lost in the supply chain companies in the wake of the Redcar steel closure (and probably at least that amount gone in the small businesses that rely on the community being able to spend in their shop, cafe etc) - and the construction sector going backwards in terms of growth - it becomes ever more evident that the balancing of our economy has not been achieved. It may be even more out of kilter than in 2010 when Osborne and co insisted they were going to rebalance it and heralded the 'march of the makers'.

So - here is my heresy question. What do we think might happen to our economy if the banks / financial services shift away and we are no longer the clear financial services capital of Europe?

My bold.

Well, I'm no economist so couldn't say, but I fervently hope some of the 'bankers', piss off to whatever country takes over and the rest lose their jobs.