Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

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LadyCentauria
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Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by LadyCentauria »

Greetings on a sad day with at least 120 dead and 200 injured. What else to say but Paris, je t'aime.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on home soil, we have this:
Eurosceptic Tory MPs are prepared to support giving 16- and 17-year-olds the vote in a move that could delay the EU Referendum by a year, The Telegraph has learnt.

The House of Lords is expected to vote through the change next week, meaning it will be up to MPs whether to give teenagers a say in the referendum.

While MPs voted down the proposal earlier this year, senior Tory backbenchers have told this newspaper they are now considering backing the change.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... -2017.html

If they were telling The Telegraph the truth we could be looking at another effective defeat for the Government. We can but hope...
Last edited by refitman on Sat 14 Nov, 2015 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Admin: add Sunday
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This time, I'm gonna be stronger I'm not giving in...
StephenDolan
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Re: Saturday 14th November 2015

Post by StephenDolan »

Police cuts: David Cameron tried to save constituency stations - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34815792" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Downing Street has now confirmed to BBC Newsnight that Mr Cameron also lobbied Thames Valley Police to try to prevent the closure, or partial closure, of police stations in the region."
yahyah
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Re: Saturday 14th November 2015

Post by yahyah »

Morning.
Awful news, what can one say other than to empathise with those who have suffered.
I am trying to put the killers into that group as well, for they too suffered in their own way, riddled with delusion and pumped full of hatred.
Only by being so detached from their own humanity could they commit such atrocities.


In other news, Lib Dems still in cloud cuckoo land.

'Polls saying we'll be wiped out have been wrong before and will be wrong again' Kirsty Williams to address Lib Dem conference''
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/polit ... t-10441482" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TobyLatimer
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Re: Saturday 14th November 2015

Post by TobyLatimer »

Toady & Rentool have since deleted these, after an attempt to out - crass each other
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TobyLatimer
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Re: Saturday 14th November 2015

Post by TobyLatimer »

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yahyah
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Re: Saturday 14th November 2015

Post by yahyah »

The Corbyn haters will manage to twist that somehow.
TobyLatimer
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Re: Saturday 14th November 2015

Post by TobyLatimer »

Trump had to join in too
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Saturday 14th November 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

That last comment from Trump was apparently an old tweet - well before last night. So it's still crass - but it's not related to this awful event.

Morning. We have to go to a meeting this morning. It's the last thing I feel like doing.
Working on the wild side.
yahyah
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Re: Saturday 14th November 2015

Post by yahyah »

It helps to focus on the many acts of courage and co-operation that went on last night.
People helping shelter people in their apartments etc.
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Saturday 14th November 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Ian McMillan ‏@IMcMillan 3h3 hours ago
Saturday slips quietly into the room and sits at the back.
Working on the wild side.
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TechnicalEphemera
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Re: Saturday 14th November 2015

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

TobyLatimer wrote:Toady & Rentool have since deleted these, after an attempt to out - crass each other
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Young is a complete arse, where does he get this rubbish from. Rentoul is just being dumb but Young invents some bizarre fantasy in his mind of terrorists pretending to be German and then somehow links it to Schengen just to have a pop at the EU.
Release the Guardvarks.
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ephemerid
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Re: Saturday 14th November 2015

Post by ephemerid »

The outrages that have happened throughout the centuries - from the Crusades onwards - in the name of God continue, it seems.

France is a secular country. It has banned the wearing of obvious religious emblems in public - the cross, the burqua, the hijab.
Personally, I do not think this is a bad thing. It's my view that faith and adherence to a particular creed should be a private thing.

Whilst it would be wrong to blame all Muslims for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, I think it is time now for all Western governments to look long and hard at what is going on here. I would include hard-line activists of any religion in this, eg. Christians who protest outside clinics and attempt to stop women exercising their rights to abortion, Jews who support Israel's attacks on Palestinians, and any other group which acts against the common good in the name of religion or ignores the rules of the society they live in to promote their theology.

My understanding is that Wahhabism is at the root of the current Islamic extremism. This is a sub-group of Islam numbering about 5 Million people (there are 28 Million Sunnis and 89 Million Shia in the Middle East) and they are concentrated mainly in Saudi Arabia.
In the early 1900's, Ibn Saud conquered large areas of the Arabian Peninsula and founded the country we now call Saudi Arabia - he executed tens of thousands of people in order to purge the country of non-believers. Wahhabism is Saudi Arabia's chosen version of Islam.
The problem with this is that Wahhabism insists on the avoidance of non-Islamic friendships, non-Islamic culture, the subjugation of women, and its' mission is to spread "pure Islam" to Muslim and non-Muslim people all over the world. The Saudi government has spent billions on doing this, funding mosques, schools, etc. and continues to do so - and as we know, it applies a very strict version of Sharia Law at home.

It doesn't take much to attract disaffected young people to extreme cults or movements; I daresay some of the hateful preachings of Wahhabism seem to make sense to such young impressionable people. And in that scenario, Jihad (including terror attacks) would seem the right thing to do.
And therein lies the problem - as with the Christians on Crusade, there is only one true god and only one way of life as prescribed by that god, and there is no argument that will sway people who think this way. They are right, their actions are justified, and non-believers don't deserve to live.

Even if moderate Muslims took to the streets en masse, it would make no difference. There is no reasoning with people like this - although I'd like to see a bit more condemnation from Muslim leaders and their communities, because without it there will always be an underlying suspicion that some of them secretly approve of what is being done in the name of Islam.

I think that all Western countries should adopt the French secular approach - that would be one in the eye for the fundamentalists of all stripes.
I think we now have to have a UN led, worldwide response to this - it won't be easy but it must be done. We cannot allow this to continue.
If it takes military action, so be it - and I say that with a heavy heart - because this will go on until ISIS/whoever are stopped.
There will be innocent casualties of any such action; and the argument will be made that it will just encourage more deluded people to join these terrorists - so that's where society comes in, with a concerted effort to secularise and fight this extremism wherever it's found.
I want to see governments refusing to countenance faith schools and any other separatist crap in the name of god; I want to see less pandying to certain minorities and more insistence that it is not racism to object to people who refuse to integrate in the society they call home.
We can expect a nasty anti-Muslim backlash, and that would be a shame in some ways - but if it is a wake-up call to the communities that harbour these fundamentalists it may not be such a bad thing. They need to be more open and honest about their own beliefs.

You cannot reason with a person who wants you dead. You cannot rationalise with someone who will kill themselves to get their point across.
This is now a state of emergency - it has happened too many times now.

Meanwhile, La Belle France is in mourning. If I believed in god I'd pray.
I don't, so I'll just hope those who are injured and those who have lost their loved ones are able to recover.
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Maeght
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Re: Saturday 14th November 2015

Post by Maeght »

For those who read French, the paper Liberation has just published on its live feed the claim for responsibility for the Paris attacks.

It makes your blood run cold.

liberation.fr

Maeght
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Rentoul has apologised for his idiotic and offensive tweet last night, fair play to him. I'm not expecting Young to do anything similar, he really *is* pond life scum.

It has to be said Tim Montgomerie hasn't exactly covered himself in glory since yesterday evening, either :(
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ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 14th November 2015

Post by ohsocynical »

ephemerid wrote:The outrages that have happened throughout the centuries - from the Crusades onwards - in the name of God continue, it seems.

France is a secular country. It has banned the wearing of obvious religious emblems in public - the cross, the burqua, the hijab.
Personally, I do not think this is a bad thing. It's my view that faith and adherence to a particular creed should be a private thing.

Whilst it would be wrong to blame all Muslims for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, I think it is time now for all Western governments to look long and hard at what is going on here. I would include hard-line activists of any religion in this, eg. Christians who protest outside clinics and attempt to stop women exercising their rights to abortion, Jews who support Israel's attacks on Palestinians, and any other group which acts against the common good in the name of religion or ignores the rules of the society they live in to promote their theology.

My understanding is that Wahhabism is at the root of the current Islamic extremism. This is a sub-group of Islam numbering about 5 Million people (there are 28 Million Sunnis and 89 Million Shia in the Middle East) and they are concentrated mainly in Saudi Arabia.
In the early 1900's, Ibn Saud conquered large areas of the Arabian Peninsula and founded the country we now call Saudi Arabia - he executed tens of thousands of people in order to purge the country of non-believers. Wahhabism is Saudi Arabia's chosen version of Islam.
The problem with this is that Wahhabism insists on the avoidance of non-Islamic friendships, non-Islamic culture, the subjugation of women, and its' mission is to spread "pure Islam" to Muslim and non-Muslim people all over the world. The Saudi government has spent billions on doing this, funding mosques, schools, etc. and continues to do so - and as we know, it applies a very strict version of Sharia Law at home.

It doesn't take much to attract disaffected young people to extreme cults or movements; I daresay some of the hateful preachings of Wahhabism seem to make sense to such young impressionable people. And in that scenario, Jihad (including terror attacks) would seem the right thing to do.
And therein lies the problem - as with the Christians on Crusade, there is only one true god and only one way of life as prescribed by that god, and there is no argument that will sway people who think this way. They are right, their actions are justified, and non-believers don't deserve to live.

Even if moderate Muslims took to the streets en masse, it would make no difference. There is no reasoning with people like this - although I'd like to see a bit more condemnation from Muslim leaders and their communities, because without it there will always be an underlying suspicion that some of them secretly approve of what is being done in the name of Islam.

I think that all Western countries should adopt the French secular approach - that would be one in the eye for the fundamentalists of all stripes.
I think we now have to have a UN led, worldwide response to this - it won't be easy but it must be done. We cannot allow this to continue.
If it takes military action, so be it - and I say that with a heavy heart - because this will go on until ISIS/whoever are stopped.
There will be innocent casualties of any such action; and the argument will be made that it will just encourage more deluded people to join these terrorists - so that's where society comes in, with a concerted effort to secularise and fight this extremism wherever it's found.
I want to see governments refusing to countenance faith schools and any other separatist crap in the name of god; I want to see less pandying to certain minorities and more insistence that it is not racism to object to people who refuse to integrate in the society they call home.
We can expect a nasty anti-Muslim backlash, and that would be a shame in some ways - but if it is a wake-up call to the communities that harbour these fundamentalists it may not be such a bad thing. They need to be more open and honest about their own beliefs.

You cannot reason with a person who wants you dead. You cannot rationalise with someone who will kill themselves to get their point across.
This is now a state of emergency - it has happened too many times now.

Meanwhile, La Belle France is in mourning. If I believed in god I'd pray.
I don't, so I'll just hope those who are injured and those who have lost their loved ones are able to recover.
Yes, yes, yes! My thoughts and viewpoint exactly.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

One of Montie's classics last night (within an hour of the news breaking) was addressed to Justin Trudeau - "still want to pull out of bombing ISIS, then?" :roll:
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by ohsocynical »

Mark Cockerton ‏@CockertonMark 4 hrs4 hours ago

Cameron tried to save local police stations

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34815792" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … Jaw-dropping hypocrisy. Other areas to take more cuts to save his own.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Also looking rather questionable now is the Sun's initial triumphalist front page yesterday re Jihadi John. Were the later editions changed?
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Willow904
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by Willow904 »

ohsocynical wrote:Mark Cockerton ‏@CockertonMark 4 hrs4 hours ago

Cameron tried to save local police stations

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34815792" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … Jaw-dropping hypocrisy. Other areas to take more cuts to save his own.
No 10 said the prime minister believed it was possible reduce costs without affecting front-line, high-quality public services.
If true, it's actually quite worrying that our country is being run by someone quite that thick or possibly delusional. I really have been quite staggered by the behaviour of the Cameron majority government as it's starting to look as though, far from being extremely clever in getting people to vote for a stripped back state, they actually appear to believe their own ridiculous bollocks about cutting "waste" not frontline services. Are they really so clueless of the impact of their policies? Surely they've read impact studies, seen the numbers that reveal that on current trajectory many councils will go bust because their budget is becoming insufficient to cover basic legal requirements. How long do they think they can get away with shifting the blame for cuts onto councillors? Surely if councils face more cuts, central government will have to start making decisions about which legal requirements will be jettisoned and take responsibility for the end of libraries, reduction of social care, closure of leisure facilities or whatever it is they think we are better off without.
Last edited by Willow904 on Sat 14 Nov, 2015 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PorFavor
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by PorFavor »

Willow904 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Mark Cockerton ‏@CockertonMark 4 hrs4 hours ago

Cameron tried to save local police stations

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34815792" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … Jaw-dropping hypocrisy. Other areas to take more cuts to save his own.
No 10 said the prime minister believed it was possible reduce costs without affecting front-line, high-quality public services.
If true, it's actually quite worrying that our country is being run by someone quite that thick or possibly delusional. I really have been quite staggered by the behaviour of the Cameron majority government as it's starting to look as though, far from being extremely clever in getting people to vote for a strip backed state, they actually appear to believe their own ridiculous bollocks about cutting "waste" not frontline services. Are they really so clueless of the impact of their policies? Surely they've read impact studies, seen the numbers that reveal that on current trajectory many councils will go bust because their budget is becoming insufficient to cover basic legal requirements. How long do they think they can get away with shifting the blame for cuts onto councillors? Surely if councils face more cuts, central government will have to start making decisions about which legal requirements will be jettisoned and take responsibility for the end of libraries, reduction of social care, closure of leisure facilities or whatever it is they think we are better off without.
This "I believe (in the face of all evidence to the contrary)" crap is highly infectious.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by PorFavor »

Good morfternoon.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by PorFavor »

No 10 said the prime minister believed it was possible reduce costs without affecting front-line, high-quality public services. (BBC News website)
I've just realised that that is couched in the past tense. Does he still believe it or has he changed his mind?
(I don't really think the latter is likely (or, more likely, that he actually believed it in the first place) as it would be a public admission that their whole policy framework was built on lies. He'd just like the cuts not to affect his own constituency.)
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by tinyclanger2 »

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/320f760d ... 84586ad10e" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
People queue to donate blood at the Saint Louis hospital in Paris on Saturday morning. Photograph: Dominique Faget/AFP/Getty Images (from the G at http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2 ... ve-updates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Somewhat heartening.
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seeingclearly
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Re: Saturday 14th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

Ephemerid, it will take a while for this country to arrive at being secular. We have not achieved true separation of church and state yet, and our faith schools exist through long tradition, just as France has a secular state because of their long traditions. Such things take time, and in the meanwhile we are a diverse nation of people of many faiths and cultures. We have cultivated Saudi Arabia as a special friend, and in fact while we didn't create its people we did create it as a state. Wahabism is just one strand of Islam and a small one; in 50 years of living alongside Muslims here and abrooad, sharing education and eating meals with them, and watching my kids grow up with theirs, I never encountered it firsthand and only know of it in a social context because a friends daughter married a Wahabi man and she had concerns. He is very strict, their life together very rigid, and my friend tries to mitigate this through love and looking after their children often. Her daughter was of course required to converted, she covers up, and so do her girl children. And my friend worries about them. They are not 'harboured' by the muslim community, which does not exist that way. In spite of what people think it isn't a coherent whole any more that Christianity is. Wahabis live and worship largely separate from other muslims and in this city have their own places of worship, just like fundamentalist Christians in the US do.

A huge amount of Muslim organisations came out in sympathy with France over the Charlie Hebdo killings, I do not remember exactly how many but it comprised nearly all of them outside of Wahabism, and I remember watching a talk show of some kind where they were accused of not coming out and condemning the killings, and the moderate Moslim man who was part of the panel said words to the effect of 'what can we do, we collect this huge list, in good faith, to show our condemnation which is real, and prepare a written statement of condemnation of this terrible event and a messagebofbsympathy for France and the victims and their families, and even then we are disbelieved.'

You cannot outlaw faith or push it out of sight easily, the communist states tried that, it just comes back. Education is having an effect, but it will take a long time. Our Muslim communities, which are really overlapping groups of very different people who intersect with other communities, and only exist separately for historic and external reasons, have been driven closer by decades of anti-Islamic rhetoric, it is at fever pitch now and last night will not have helped. They are as scared by Wahabism as they are by the hatred they face on a daily basis. What is needed is to stop the rhetoric and build real friendships, start offering housing among them to people of other faiths and be welcoming when they move next door. Really.

Our councils have had as much to do with creating segregation as anything, it has long been policy to allocate school places poorly, resulting in schools that swing one way or another, so here we have the teriible situation where there are schools that have only token numbers of the three main groupings of black, white and Asian.

I lived for a while in Handsworth, famous for riots, but actually a great place to live, everything a multicultural area could and should be. This was fantastic till kids got to transition age. They nominally got a choice of schools, but the reality was that very few got first choice, the Asian kids, whatever religion they were nearly all went to the comp nearby, the white kids went to comps or 'good' schoolsin other areas. A few of the wealthier Indian kids also managed with lashings of tuition to get past the barriers and into the good schools. The black kids went to school in Lozells, which is where the infamous driveby shootings took place, and a more desolate school you'd find hard to match.nIn many ways it is a more closed area than any Asian area, it's a no go zone, where the police go in to stop and search, and where unemployment and deprivation are rife. We moved, for personal reasons,just a year before having to go through that choice, to the other side of the cuty, our local primary school had had only a handful of white kids, the rest were nearly all Sikh and Moslem mostly the former, and a smattering of West Indian and Somali kids. We were really dismayed when my sons' best friend, Scots as it happens, got chosen to be the sole token white boy in the Lozells school, the family eventually moved, their appeal was turned down by the council who regarded it as racist, (not lefties, but tory and libdem).Oddly the head of the school agreed with the parents. It would not have been the equivalent of being a sole immigrant child in a white area, it was a place where few survive intact anyway. Made and sustained by very poor thinking. The legal position was terrible, there was no case. On the other side of the city I had already been faced with similar, in an area with 22 primary schools it took five months to find a place for a ten year old. The lovely head of the closest, an all Moslem school, very sweet kids, and well run, had kindly suggested that I needed to look elsewhere for my childs sake, he was statemented and they did not have teaching assistants who could accomodate his needs; the only local preschool provision was in Asian self help playgroups, so their SEN was loaded towards mother tongue solutions, all the kids spoke English but reverted to their home language when explaining complex things. (The school itself had busy roads on three sides and virtually no playground.) The next closest was a Catholic school, and not even the weight of the education department could crack that one open, even though they had places in the right year group. Anglican schools close by were similar, and the hotly sought after schools were highly academic, didn't want a SEN child and would have had to be legally forced to take an extra child over the statutory class size. By this time, into February, a place finally revealed itself, it was three bus journeys away, and there was a 96% Moslem intake; still we took it with gratidude, because it could offer the SEN we needed. When the forms came round for a secondary school place we had the same problem! Funnily enough all of these schools were good, the ones that were failing were doing so because of the bad policies, not bad people or bad kids. And that really is what the Trojan horse issues came out of, and how a handful of stupid white men managed to engineer division here that had not really been an issue before. It never was, even the famous riots of years before came out of the same tainted bag. You vilify and segregate, educationally and economically deprive a single identifiable group, label them as a problem, then at some point that oppression will out. Its invitable. Today we see the result of decades of oppression by media, and tbh it is a miracle that the Muslim communities have been so restrained and tolerant. It might not look like it when we are in the middle of recovering from the shock of a terrorist event, but it is true, how do you think good hearted people feel when they are labelled by their fellow citizens and countrymen as terrorists? And France, which has suffered much harsher attacks in recent years, also has problems it needs to address. The segregation is much more real there.

In a country like ours do you think we could impose secularism? Our far right flag waving nut jobs would be screaming that they were being oppressed because of muslims, and that they were entitled to be religious because this is their Christian country, and they are now an oppressed minority, even though they aren't anywhere near a minority and have never set foot inside a church to worship. It wouldn't stop any of this, it would drive Wahabis further out of sight, their women would be rarely seen, and it would fuel those who would like to cleanse the country of foreigners. And our muslims, who like us have their good and their bad in an ordinary secular social way, who haven't contributed or wished for any of this, will continue to have children who have never known an existence when they havent been condemned on a near daily existence by the media, to an ever greater degree, by stupid politicians and ignorant haters.

You can't solve this through imposed secularism, it is a stance that people have to choose to adopt, brought about by education, equality, honesty and respect. The French paid a very bitter price for their liberte, egalite, fraternite, and their secularism, it took a long time to settle down, and only did so after the ripples of destruction had spread far enough to lose their power. Their revolution gave us a lot of good things to emulate, but in itself is not a good lesson, it bears more resemblance to yesterdays events.

To respond to all of this is going to take wisdom, and concessions all round, but most of all it will need those things I mentioned. I don't think there will be any short cuts, because the time for them was twenty or more years ago as every anti war campaigner then knew.

Edited to wish you all as much solidarity and love as possible, last night was horrific, and utterly wrong. If you have colleagues, friends, or neighbours who are Moslem please find some unity with them, even if it is only with a smile, because there will be a lot of the other stuff happening, snd if ever we needed s sense of togetherness it is now. And bless you, YahYah, for reminding us that suffering comes in many forms. :hug:
Last edited by seeingclearly on Sat 14 Nov, 2015 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by ohsocynical »

PorFavor wrote:
No 10 said the prime minister believed it was possible reduce costs without affecting front-line, high-quality public services. (BBC News website)
I've just realised that that is couched in the past tense. Does he still believe it or has he changed his mind?
(I don't really think the latter is likely (or, more likely, that he actually believed it in the first place) as it would be a public admission that their whole policy framework was built on lies. He'd just like the cuts not to affect his own constituency.)
They are - ahem - the law and order party.
He'll have had some of his neighbours dropping a quiet word in his ear.

It's rich Tory voters who've always screamed for more and better policing and plenty of prison time, not to mention the birch and hanging.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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citizenJA
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by citizenJA »

Good-afternoon, friends.

Reading the word, solidarity, in many messages recently is wonderful. Stand together, leave no one outside. Leave no one without responsible friends. Include everyone. Solidarity.

How to love others who set themselves apart intentionally? Creating us and them? Remind Dave and those like him they're part of society, included regardless of their own division. We stand together. It's our obligation and our benefit.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Fuck off, Rentoul.

And I say that as someone who thinks Corbyn ought to have walked out on Stop The War. There's no way that Corbyn himself thinks anything like that.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by PorFavor »

2h ago12:24

Cameron said those targeted were “innocent victims, enjoying a night out with friends and families, no doubt after [a] long week … killed and injured by brutal, callous murderers, who want to destroy what our two countries stand for.” (Guardian)
-

and I've also listened to the full speech over at the BBC News website.

I hope this isn't taken for levity on my part, but did he really just pull back from saying "hardworking"? Was it really necessary to include that "proviso" (as I see it) to an entitlement for fellow-feeling and sympathy? Perhaps he didn't mean it that way, but I've reached the point where I can grant him no benefit of the doubt. Such utterances are mindlessly hardwired into him - trim them as he might to suit the occasion.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Interesting observations about Handsworth, Seeingclearly.

As you know I live in Tower Hamlets, and despite its notoriety as a ghetto, I think that to some extent the fact many of it's very monocultural in areas has enabled Bangladeshi people to get representation on the council and make sure the schools work for Bangladeshi pupils and others.

But nobody would argue that the demography of schools in Tower Hamlets is, in itself, a force for good.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by ohsocynical »

Clare Hepworth OBE ‏@Hepworthclare 22 hrs22 hours ago

N.Rock sale of £13bn "higher risk" mortgages to US Equity Co.
Are we back in "sub prime mortgage" market.
Recall what happened last time ?
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by PorFavor »

PorFavor wrote:
2h ago12:24

Cameron said those targeted were “innocent victims, enjoying a night out with friends and families, no doubt after [a] long week … killed and injured by brutal, callous murderers, who want to destroy what our two countries stand for.” (Guardian)
-

and I've also listened to the full speech over at the BBC News website.

I hope this isn't taken for levity on my part, but did he really just pull back from saying "hardworking"? Was it really necessary to include that "proviso" (as I see it) to an entitlement for fellow-feeling and sympathy? Perhaps he didn't mean it that way, but I've reached the point where I can grant him no benefit of the doubt. Such utterances are mindlessly hardwired into him - trim them as he might to suit the occasion.


Edited to add

Emphasis in the above quote is mine
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

ohsocynical wrote:Clare Hepworth OBE ‏@Hepworthclare 22 hrs22 hours ago

N.Rock sale of £13bn "higher risk" mortgages to US Equity Co.
Are we back in "sub prime mortgage" market.
Recall what happened last time ?
To be fair it wasn't so much the mortgages that did the damage as investment banks speculating upon them.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by PorFavor »

Bumboils.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

What are you bumboiling about PF?
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by PorFavor »

rebeccariots2 wrote:What are you bumboiling about PF?
Hello!

Quoted myself instead of editing my original post. So it's there twice now, as if once wasn't quite enough.

It's peeing down here and almost dark already. How's your part of the world?
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Well - here's an effort to get myself to engage with something other than mithering in my brain over Paris and what it may mean from now on ...

Our first full branch meeting since the leadership election. Packed - we were packed out I tell you - in comparison to previous meetings. We had to move from the usual room to a larger one ... and ended up with the chair and sec conducting proceedings from the head of the pool table (yes, we were in a pub room but well before a decent time to claim it was OK to have a drink).

Very pleased to see that there were several faces there that I knew from our anti badger cull campaigning - and I think they were pleased to see me too - hope so. We went round doing introductions and saying why we had joined Labour. Every new member cited Corbyn as their reason for joining - they were a mix of rejoiners and real newbies - until we got to one woman who said 'actually the person that made me join was David Cameron'. Big laugh.

My belief that we we might be able to capitalise in some way on Mr Riots' passing resemblance to Corbyn has been strengthened by a jokey reference to 'our Jezza' from a few of the members who haven't met or seen him before. I'm going to buy him a Breton cap and get a beige suit jacket and pale coloured shirt from a charity shop. Mr Riots says he can supply his own pen and specs case for the breast pocket. He took umbrage when I said we might need to get him a pair of heels or platforms to increase his height. He insists he is as tall as Jezza and he knows this for sure because he stood next to Andy Burnham at a hustings and he claims he was taller than him. In his dreams. Anyway, he'll be in this get up at as many street stalls and campaigning events as possible just to give that added frisson ...
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

PorFavor wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:What are you bumboiling about PF?
Hello!

Quoted myself instead of editing my original post. So it's there twice now, as if once wasn't quite enough.

It's peeing down here and almost dark already. How's your part of the world?
Exactly the same as you describe PF. I will shout bumboils at the window and draw the curtains soon.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Cathy Newman ‏@cathynewman 5m5 minutes ago
Here's the release on the special conference on @LordRennard http://ldrtbpress.blogspot.co.uk/2015/1 ... s.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Cathy Newman Retweeted
Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick 47m47 minutes ago
Lib Dem Special conference on Chris Rennard is expected to cost the party £90,000. 200 signatures were needed, and 240 gathered so far.

Cathy Newman ‏@cathynewman 6m6 minutes ago
Awkward for @timfarron that while other leaders focus on #ParisAttacks he's forced to agree emergency conference on future of @LordRennard
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

I think that's a bit artificial- it's what journos want to ask the leaders. Cameron could be asked all manner of difficult questions about social care and much else. That he gets asked questions about Paris and Farron doesn't is really neither here nor there.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Interesting observations about Handsworth, Seeingclearly.

As you know I live in Tower Hamlets, and despite its notoriety as a ghetto, I think that to some extent the fact many of its schools are "monocultural" in their pupils (not just Muslim but specifically Bangladeshi) it's enabled them to get representation on the council and make sure the schools work for Bangladeshi pupils and others.

But nobody would argue that the demography of schools in Tower Hamlets is, in itself, a force for good.

It has been true for a lot of the city, Tubby, I live on the south, desirable side, its no less true here, mostly it is very middleclass, but I date from before that! You may remember a certain joint head of two schools, both with a large Muslim intake far greater than the demographic warrants, who played a part in the events here that politicized the trojan issue. Plonked right in the middle of largely white ares which also have extremely desirable schools close by. No need for segregation at all. I lived next to one and my kid went to the other. Had to pull him out because suddenly a policy hit our schools, someone had the bright idea of turning learning support services into punishment units. Guess which party controlled the council.... But this poicy was applied in a very selective way.

It has caused untold damage, the trojan stuff, a particularly nasty far right faction enters every discussion on everything now, and puts pressure on our Muslim citizens, who do a lot of very good key work here in all fields.

There in a fantastic advice centre local to me that is joint run by older white English origin people and mainly Pakistani origin muslims, both goups are tireless in finding solutions, wholly welcoming to people of every kind, and they know their stuff legally and in detail. We would be so much poorer without them, but places and people like this get targetted now, even the generationly indigenous people too. Traitors! **** lovers! ******** lefties. And worse. Pigs heads in playgrounds and outside mosques. There wasn't an integration problem anywhere that didn't have an education and housing factor to it first. And it isn't our ethnic communities that want it!

It is not good to have segregated schools at all, my Moslem friends don't like them, but their kids and grandkids wind up going to them, and they and others from the community wind up as teaching assistants, and these days as teachers too. But when it comes to governance it is a different matter, the older often less well educated ones get there because of cultural reasons, and often get things wrong. And a small number of ethnic heads get there through tokenism rather than aptitude.

Correct me if I'm wrong, it is my understanding that Tower Hamlets was a poor white area before it became a poor Bangladeshi area and that there were social issues there from way back? And a lot of bad housing?

I can't say I blame communities for self organizing and pushing for representation, I've worked in places where that hasn't happened and where the councils wished it had and were putting money into it. Some of the most abject places I've ever been in, unbelievable sanitation and housing, and everything undesirable you can think of. Except radicalisation.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Got a new copy of Rail magazine today.

You know all that stuff about "highest investment in railways since Brunel"?

2014-19: £38.3 bn
2009-14: £37.8bn

So, only just, and with passengers paying more of it.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 4m4 minutes ago
#ParisAttacks appear to be work of self-contained cell back from Syria, UK sources tell BBC http://bbc.in/1LfqRvX" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Though an Egyptian passport has reportedly been linked to the attackers as well?
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Though an Egyptian passport has reportedly been linked to the attackers as well?
Yes, that's what another update says - that Egyptian and Syrian passports are linked to the attackers. The wording re the self contained cell back from Syria is quite careful - doesn't say they were French citizens. That statement is said to come from 'Whitehall sources'.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Correct me if I'm wrong, it is my understanding that Tower Hamlets was a poor white area before it became a poor Bangladeshi area and that there were social issues there from way back? And a lot of
bad housing?
Yes, it was. To use the cliche, it was "close knit". That obvious helped mitigate lots of the social conditions, but I wonder whether it was a mixed blessing in terms of eg Education, with jobs being something you got through your Dad. I wonder whether the community was particularly vulnerable to docks and factories closing because of its closeknittedness.

There are still lots of poor white people, but they're much older than the Bangladeshi population. Because of the improvement in our schools, you do see a few white kids in them. I wonder whether they're coming from some distance away.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Cathy Newman ‏@cathynewman 5m5 minutes ago
Cathy Newman Retweeted Yannis Koutsomitis
I fear the likes of @marinelepen will go to town on this...

Yannis Koutsomitis
‏@YanniKouts
#Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews
So do I.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by ohsocynical »

Jon SnowVerified account
‏@jonsnowC4

Agony in Paris: time to talk of wahabiism; time to to talk TO the Saudies:

See my snowblog from PARISS: http://bit.ly/1SrYC2z" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

I should be fair and point out that the policy of passengers basically paying for the railway running costs predates the Coalition- it was 2007, I think, that it became explicit. It was a bit like what happened with student fees under Blair. It came with lots of government investment too.

It was ham-fistedless spun with some unattributed buffoon "why should the others pay for people travelling?" and saying that lines might be closed. Lines had been opening rather than closing for years.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

Barely a mention of the PM and the great Indian knees up.
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Re: Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th November 2015

Post by ephemerid »

Afternoon, all.

Thank you, seeingclearly, for your response. I had Muslim neighbours for a while some years back - they were lovely people, good people.

I think what I am saying about secular societies is this - we should be moving towards one here, and that way we could perhaps begin to get rid of some of the situations you described, with their inherent unfairnesses.

Of course it will take time; but I do not believe there is any place in education for religious indoctrination - and having been educated myself in exclusively Catholic schools, I can honestly say that it did more harm than good although there was nothing wrong with the rest of the teaching.
I left school with excellent O and A levels - and a very narrow, skewed idea of what sex and relationships were about. Brainwashing, no less.

If people want to bring their children up within a certain faith/religion, fine; but our schools should be secular, with the tenets of world's great religions taught alongside community studies and ethics generally.

I'd be interested to know what our resident educationalists think about this.


My daughter left her job with Thames Valley Police yesterday; she starts with the Anti-Terrorist Squad a week on Monday. She's going to be busy.

I wish I knew what the answer is - but one thing I do know: Cameron is not the man who has that answer, and he will use this (as he uses his dead son and anything else he chooses) as political capital to entrench his position and make a mockery of our failing democracy.
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