Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by **refitman** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 8:46 am

Morning all.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 8:54 am

Morning.

Cat got left out when the wife went to work at 6am...and then the thunder and lightning started. She was quite pleased to see me when I drew the curtains in my room 2 hours later...the cat that is not the wife.

So...how do Labour get out of this West Lothian trap I wonder? Unless Cameron realises it's a minefield and quitely drops it between now and the election.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 8:59 am

Good morning to all on another day of childishness in our political world.....

I am getting really angry at those Tories and how they cannot do anything for the good of the country, but are alway focused on what is in it for them and how they maintain their grip , to them their right, on power

The Westminster Parliament is the UK Parliament - the WLQ doesn't arise because the UK Parliament should vote on all legislation coming before them

The second point is that there is a need to devolve power in England. It isn't defensible that the 'English' do not have the same level of responsibility of the devolved regions

This English devolution needs to be put together very carefully and needs to be linked into how we realateto the other devolved countries in the Union. ersonally I see an English Parliament as a non-starter - it has to have a regional flavour

These are big questions and very, very difficult to decide what to do. In effect we would need to throw away our current structure and redesign something fit for purpose

I would like to see some maturity from all sides - the way that the original Scottish devolution was done can show how parties can work together. Any devolved English system will need PR of some form. I think the high level principle could be done quite quickly ie a regional or national English Parliament but the detail will take years

Of course we will not see this maturity and the years of arguing to come will diminish us as a country

Just to add, I despise Cameron.....he has been the worst PM in living memory - he is a destroyer and doesn't seem to have an ounce of sense in that bum-like head of his!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 9:03 am

RoT

Labour cannot 'get out of it' - it is either igonored or it is confronted straight on

I prefer the latter as the country's structure is so imbalanced now and the North of England is the main loser.

Do not conflate the UK Parliament with a devolved English one - the WLQ is irrelevant at Westminster

A proper English devolution debate and proposal for delivery by 2020 - involving all relevant parties

If the English cannot get their arses in order then stop moaning about the UK Parliament doing it's job!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 9:14 am

Morning all.

So pleased to hear Toffee is back home Rebecca, what a relief after the worry.

Have to echo the feelings about the RSPCA.

There was a feral tom attacking cats where we lived in Cirencester, he caused a lot of infected wounds and split ears and left the pets traumatised and fearful.

I got bitten by it when it accidentally got into the house and I ended up in hospital on IV antibiotics as infection took hold. When it sank its teeth into my hand and bit to the bone and hung off it, its back claws raked my inner wrist and I genuinely thought it would rip my veins open. My husband had to fight it off, after hearing me screaming, with a kitchen chair and a broom. Still have the scars.

A neighbour wanted to shoot it as his grandchild played in their garden.
My husband asked the RSPCA to help as we didn't want shotguns waved around.
The RSPCA didn't want to know. We said we'd try and trap it and move it out from the village to some fields. The RSPCA said we would be prosecuted for that, for abandoning an animal ! Unbelievable.

That's why I give money to The Cat Protection League, they are very different in their approach to the RSPCA.

Back to politics -

Ann Clywd said she was going to stand down in 2015, but has now said she wants to stand again for Cynon Valley.

The Western Mail report it will be up to the Labour party’s National Executive Committee to decide whether she has to take part in a full selection contest, which would involve an all-women shortlist.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... yd-7802085

Maybe LetsSkip has some local knowledge on how likely to succeed she will be if she has to be re-selected?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 9:35 am

WARNING MAIL http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... paign=1490

Labour sources said Mr Miliband was ‘wary’ of any plan to limit the right of Scottish MPs to vote on laws at Westminster that only affect England and Wales.

Aides fear it could neuter the ability of a future Labour government to pass laws on issues ranging from health and education to welfare and tax.

Mr Miliband said he would not sign up to anything that could be ‘used for narrow party political advantage’.

Serious sleight of mind-ness follows (if you can bear to look).

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 9:38 am

Although politicians from all sides have recognised there is a real issue, the general consensus has been that – as Labour’s ex-lord chancellor Lord Irvine once pithily remarked – the best answer to the West Lothian question is to stop asking it.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politi ... -1-6310881

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 9:42 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning.
So...how do Labour get out of this West Lothian trap I wonder? Unless Cameron realises it's a minefield and quitely drops it between now and the election.

Turn the issue into a question of electoral honesty. The LibDems are already firmly established as liars who should be ignored. Milliband should take every opportunity to highlight the Tories trying to avoid keeping their promise.
A full-on 'expose the Condem liars' campaign on social media would help.

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 9:43 am

Oh, and morning folks.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 9:43 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:WARNING MAIL http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... paign=1490

Labour sources said Mr Miliband was ‘wary’ of any plan to limit the right of Scottish MPs to vote on laws at Westminster that only affect England and Wales.

Aides fear it could neuter the ability of a future Labour government to pass laws on issues ranging from health and education to welfare and tax.

Mr Miliband said he would not sign up to anything that could be ‘used for narrow party political advantage’.
Serious sleight of mind-ness follows (if you can bear to look).

Morning TC

Yes I stopped reading it when Ed's proposed Constitutional Convention was described as "unwieldy".

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 9:43 am

Nasty scenes in Glasgow last night.

Idiot right wing unionists looking for trouble, no surprise there.
But what were the reported group of Yes supporters doing there last night ?
Hoping George Square would be the place to start a Scottish Spring to try and push for their dream again ?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gl ... ly-4290576" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 9:46 am

55DegreesNorth wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning.
So...how do Labour get out of this West Lothian trap I wonder? Unless Cameron realises it's a minefield and quitely drops it between now and the election.
Turn the issue into a question of electoral honesty. The LibDems are already firmly established as liars who should be ignored. Milliband should take every opportunity to highlight the Tories trying to avoid keeping their promise.
A full-on 'expose the Condem liars' campaign on social media would help.

Yes thankfully we know Ed can and will keep calm and carry on. Surely he is right. And it will become clear to everyone else in due course that he is right.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 9:57 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 45125.html

It's very disturbing how little interest is paid (by both Salmond and Tories according to this piece) to actually solving the problem. Is very tedious now and demonstrates that even after such a close shave, Cameron still has not learned anything.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:01 am

yahyah wrote:Morning all.

So pleased to hear Toffee is back home Rebecca, what a relief after the worry.

Have to echo the feelings about the RSPCA.

There was a feral tom attacking cats where we lived in Cirencester, he caused a lot of infected wounds and split ears and left the pets traumatised and fearful.

I got bitten by it when it accidentally got into the house and I ended up in hospital on IV antibiotics as infection took hold. When it sank its teeth into my hand and bit to the bone and hung off it, its back claws raked my inner wrist and I genuinely thought it would rip my veins open. My husband had to fight it off, after hearing me screaming, with a kitchen chair and a broom. Still have the scars.

A neighbour wanted to shoot it as his grandchild played in their garden.
My husband asked the RSPCA to help as we didn't want shotguns waved around.
The RSPCA didn't want to know. We said we'd try and trap it and move it out from the village to some fields. The RSPCA said we would be prosecuted for that, for abandoning an animal ! Unbelievable.

That's why I give money to The Cat Protection League, they are very different in their approach to the RSPCA.

Back to politics -

Ann Clywd said she was going to stand down in 2015, but has now said she wants to stand again for Cynon Valley.

The Western Mail report it will be up to the Labour party’s National Executive Committee to decide whether she has to take part in a full selection contest, which would involve an all-women shortlist.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... yd-7802085

Maybe LetsSkip has some local knowledge on how likely to succeed she will be if she has to be re-selected?

Morning yahyah, the Cynon Valley borders mine, unfortunately I think I highly likely she will be re-selected, there has been ructions in that constituency over the enforcement of an AWS, letters flying back and fore Cardiff, I think he got to the point where very nearly the CLP threatened to refuse to endorse any candidate, Clwyd first posted her retirement plans in February, so this farce has been going on long enough. She's a pretty ineffective MP imo, her area contains some of the worst poverty in the valley areas, I have yet to hear her complain about that. Yet she was on R4 this week agreeing with someone or other that eventually troops may have to go on the ground against IS. Still faithful to Blair, after all this time no doubt?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:05 am

This is the truth isn't it?

JP Janson De Couet retweeted
Bonnie Greer ‏@Bonn1eGreer 4m
#Tories counting on #EnglishNationalism to blindside #Labour,rob it of a possible maj.& give them one instead.
The end game.
#UnitedKingdom

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:08 am

Has anyone read Irvine Welsh's bleating in the Guardian?

What a

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:15 am

yahyah wrote:Nasty scenes in Glasgow last night.

Idiot right wing unionists looking for trouble, no surprise there.
But what were the reported group of Yes supporters doing there last night ?
Hoping George Square would be the place to start a Scottish Spring to try and push for their dream again ?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gl ... ly-4290576" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Yes supporters were there - as happens in large cities all over the world after elections/referenda etc - having a (planned) rally.

The question is not what were they doing there, in their own city; it doesn't matter whether they were indulging in communal commiseration or scheming for the future - the question is why were BNP thugs and known agitators there?

The Yes campaigners came for a rally. The rest came to jeer and start a fight. So say the police, who were there too.

Re. Cameron -
It would appear that he has decided, sans referendum for the English, that England must have its' own devolution.
Yet again, his arrogance reigns supreme.

This is just a paltry excuse for delaying any action on the pledges made to Scotland - pledges which seem to be evaporating by the day.
Nobody has asked him if he has asked England if it wants devolution - but this, seemingly, is the excuse he intends to use so that he can do nothing, and any "switherers" who voted No on the basis that these promises in "The Vow" would be kept must be furious now.

Divide and rule - that's all the Tories know. Cameron is now apparently saying that Scotland can have all this stuff, of course it can; as long as the English can too.....but has he offered the English any referendum? No. And he won't.
If he loses at the GE, it's a mess for Labour to clean up; if he wins, he'll do what he wants and all this will become far too difficult or he'll find a war to distract us all or something or other. He allowed Brown to make promises he knew he had no intention of honouring.

Why the Yes campaign have confined themselves to a rally is beyond me. I'm amazed they're not protesting in their thousands.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:17 am

Clearly the effing Tories haven't had sufficient a kicking and require a concerted campaign to do just that. There's some Scottish guy - bit dodgy but adds the ruthlessness Miliband lacks - who might be free ...

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:22 am

Gordon Brown speaking on BBC News now.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:24 am

frightful_oik wrote:Gordon Brown speaking on BBC News now.

Can't get it right now - what's his message?

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:27 am

letsskiptotheleft wrote:Has anyone read Irvine Welsh's bleating in the Guardian?

What a

I think it's an excellent article - if a bit too long.

He's right.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:28 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
frightful_oik wrote:Gordon Brown speaking on BBC News now.
Can't get it right now - what's his message?

Firstly that the timetable for the 'vow' is fixed and immutable.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:30 am

I think he's going to smack DC if he tries to duck out of his responsibilities.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:33 am

frightful_oik wrote:I think he's going to smack DC if he tries to duck out of his responsibilities.

excellent

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:55 am

ephemerid wrote: This is just a paltry excuse for delaying any action on the pledges made to Scotland - pledges which seem to be evaporating by the day.
Nobody has asked him if he has asked England if it wants devolution - but this, seemingly, is the excuse he intends to use so that he can do nothing, and any "switherers" who voted No on the basis that these promises in "The Vow" would be kept must be furious now.

Divide and rule - that's all the Tories know. Cameron is now apparently saying that Scotland can have all this stuff, of course it can; as long as the English can too.....but has he offered the English any referendum? No. And he won't.
If he loses at the GE, it's a mess for Labour to clean up; if he wins, he'll do what he wants and all this will become far too difficult or he'll find a war to distract us all or something or other. He allowed Brown to make promises he knew he had no intention of honouring.

Problem is Ephe, Cameron (well, Crosby & Osborne really) is winning at the moment, they are dividing, they are ruling. His fag packet proposals yesterday had the purpose, as you rightly say, of delaying (probably fatally, in his view) the promises made to you & your fellow Scots last week; but they were also about stitching up things South of the Border to the advantage of him and his Party. Miliband, quite rightly, has distanced himself from them and as a result he, Labour (and most especially Gordon Brown) are now being painted as the villains of the piece; the number of "Labour is dead in Scotland" tweets I have seen, from people who should know better, is frankly terrifying - don't they realise they are giving Cameron exactly what he wants?

Maybe I'm naive, but I think Miliband and Labour nationwide (I accept that there are problems with Scottish Labour that need addressing) give the Scots the best chance of getting what was promised last week, and returning power to the English regions in a sensible and measured way at the same time; the fact they have been talking about this, to an extent, for several months (and long before the promises of this week) suggests that their plans are better thought through. But what do I know, I'm a fucking stupid English Labourite who knows no better apparently, my opinion is worthless in this instance.

Everything I feared is coming to pass, and the thought of five more years of Tory rule gifted to them on a plate terrifies me; I know I wouldn't survive it, that is for sure.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:56 am

On a happier note .... Rebecca, glad your bit of cat burglary went well.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:05 am

The good thing about the current situation is that Labour have the coming week to themselves - and can focus people's attention on proper and serious proposals to deal with the present crisis of legitimacy in our political system. Rather than Dave's transparently partisan, back of a fag packet stunts.

Not to mention other stuff - the NHS, cost of living, schools and so on. People across the UK care about those too

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:06 am

Good morning.

@Rebecca

Glad the cat is safe and well.

@ohsocynical (rebeccariots2 and AN Other - so sorry, memory fail)

The RSPCA has always been crap whenever I've had dealings with them.

@StephenDolan

Yes, Ruth Dawson seemed quite reasonable. I got the impression that she's no fan of David Cameron.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:10 am

One thing. We now know Cameron has literally no soul - so no amount of appealing to it will have any useful role to play moving forward. Labour - no matter how hard they find this to understand - must accept this fact and act accordingly.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:20 am

Hi all. Lots of comments on cif suggest an awful lot of people are falling for Cameron's stitch up to backtrack on devo max and frame Labour as the self-interested ones. I'm finding it hard to accept how easily everyone are being played. The hatred for labour is as palpable as it is inexplicable. Ed Miliband is going to have to play a blinder at the upcoming conference. Meanwhile I comfort myself with the thought that Cameron would still have to achieve a majority in England to complete his stitch up which is by no means a foregone conclusion.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:22 am

They need to point to the cynicism of having ignored the WL question for 4 years, it suddenly becomes desperately urgent to sort out before the election.

They need to point to Pickles constantly badgering local councils. Ridicule him on his obsession with bin collections.

They need to point to Gove and now Morgan having direct control over 4,000+ schools. Despite the talk of local parents, it's Whitehall that makes the decisions on schools - point to those schools which had the plug pulled at the last minute.

They need to point to the low turnout on PCCs as examples of botched and faux localism which tried to answer a question that no-one has asked.

They need to point to low turnout on local council elections and the way that council spending has been cut to ribbons as part of the democratic deficit. If people aren't caring about local politics, then that's an issue that needs addressing.

Time to go on the attack.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:37 am

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
ephemerid wrote: This is just a paltry excuse for delaying any action on the pledges made to Scotland - pledges which seem to be evaporating by the day.
Nobody has asked him if he has asked England if it wants devolution - but this, seemingly, is the excuse he intends to use so that he can do nothing, and any "switherers" who voted No on the basis that these promises in "The Vow" would be kept must be furious now.

Divide and rule - that's all the Tories know. Cameron is now apparently saying that Scotland can have all this stuff, of course it can; as long as the English can too.....but has he offered the English any referendum? No. And he won't.
If he loses at the GE, it's a mess for Labour to clean up; if he wins, he'll do what he wants and all this will become far too difficult or he'll find a war to distract us all or something or other. He allowed Brown to make promises he knew he had no intention of honouring.
Problem is Ephe, Cameron (well, Crosby & Osborne really) is winning at the moment, they are dividing, they are ruling. His fag packet proposals yesterday had the purpose, as you rightly say, of delaying (probably fatally, in his view) the promises made to you & your fellow Scots last week; but they were also about stitching up things South of the Border to the advantage of him and his Party. Miliband, quite rightly, has distanced himself from them and as a result he, Labour (and most especially Gordon Brown) are now being painted as the villains of the piece; the number of "Labour is dead in Scotland" tweets I have seen, from people who should know better, is frankly terrifying - don't they realise they are giving Cameron exactly what he wants?

Maybe I'm naive, but I think Miliband and Labour nationwide (I accept that there are problems with Scottish Labour that need addressing) give the Scots the best chance of getting what was promised last week, and returning power to the English regions in a sensible and measured way at the same time; the fact they have been talking about this, to an extent, for several months (and long before the promises of this week) suggests that their plans are better thought through. But what do I know, I'm a fucking stupid English Labourite who knows no better apparently, my opinion is worthless in this instance.

Everything I feared is coming to pass, and the thought of five more years of Tory rule gifted to them on a plate terrifies me; I know I wouldn't survive it, that is for sure.

Thank you, TGS.

I am not "a fellow scot" - I am English and I live in Wales. I am, though, as you know, a supporter of Scottish Independence - and a supporter of regional autonomy, proportional representation, and reform if not abolition of the House of Lords.

You are no more "fucking stupid" than I am. I agree with you that Labour's ideas are better-thought-through than anything Cameron might dredge up; it's going in the right direction, but I fear that they have scuppered their support in Scotland because of their support for No (at least, until Brown stepped in). And now it seems that Cameron has no intention of honouring the promises he made and encouraged Brown to campaign on - I can't see Brown standing for that without ructions.

What is really annoying me now is some of the stuff I'm hearing from those who appear to believe that England gets the short straw in terms of funding etc. when that is manifestly untrue - bits of it do. Some areas get plenty - and it's not spent fairly. The spend on infrastructure before 2010 in Teeside was £3 a head, in London about £1,200 - since the coalition got in, the gap has got even worse. In Wales it's £8. I appreciate that places and needs differ, but this is the sort of thing that a lot of people don't know and the sort of thing that any English devolution must address.
England is now, apparently, a place which Cameron thinks he can impose new constitutional arrangements on - unlike Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, England will have its' devolution decided by the Tories right now, without consultation, and without the same democratic process enjoyed by the other three countries. I have no doubt whatsoever that should Cameron somehow contrive to do this, he will ensure that already poor regions get less and the favoured ones (ie. the Tory shires and London) will get the most. Labour's ideas certainly go some way to address that.

My deepest concern is that Cameron will use this whole business to entrench his political position - which is not good for England, Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland. And as you say, if the Tories get into office again I don't think I could survive it either.

What I do believe is this - I owe the Scots a debt of gratitude for showing the world that it is possible to get nearly an entire country engaged in discussion on what being a country means, on what self-determination means, on how democracy can move people to vote in very high numbers when they have something to be passionate about.

What happens next is in the lap of the gods - Hubris and Nemesis come to mind - and I hope that we can move on (here and elsewhere) from unnecessary polarisation. We are, as they say in China, living in very interesting times.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:43 am

ephemerid wrote:
My deepest concern is that Cameron will use this whole business to entrench his political position - which is not good for England, Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland. And as you say, if the Tories get into office again I don't think I could survive it either.

Agreed. Indeed none of us will, since they're fundamentally not interested in the good of their people but only in how they can exploit them.

ephemerid wrote:What I do believe is this - I owe the Scots a debt of gratitude for showing the world that it is possible to get nearly an entire country engaged in discussion on what being a country means, on what self-determination means, on how democracy can move people to vote in very high numbers when they have something to be passionate about.

Agreed. The task of the Labour and other not-completely-evil parties is to seize that momentum and change the political discourse.

What happens next is in the lap of all of us - just as it was with Eck and the yes-voting Scots. I didn't agree that this was the solution, but do agree that they have created a massive political opportunity. Labour need to get their acts together. As the Dutch say - nice doctors make foul wounds.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:46 am

ephemerid wrote:
and reform if not abolition of the House of Lords.

And that's a whole different issue which needs to be addressed. Why is it of paramount importance that laws relating to England should have only English MPs voting yet peers who are unrepresentative of anyone, never mind just English seats, get to stay?

If we're going to have constitutional reform, let's chuck everything in there and do it properly once and for all.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:51 am

ephemerid wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
ephemerid wrote: This is just a paltry excuse for delaying any action on the pledges made to Scotland - pledges which seem to be evaporating by the day.
Nobody has asked him if he has asked England if it wants devolution - but this, seemingly, is the excuse he intends to use so that he can do nothing, and any "switherers" who voted No on the basis that these promises in "The Vow" would be kept must be furious now.

Divide and rule - that's all the Tories know. Cameron is now apparently saying that Scotland can have all this stuff, of course it can; as long as the English can too.....but has he offered the English any referendum? No. And he won't.
If he loses at the GE, it's a mess for Labour to clean up; if he wins, he'll do what he wants and all this will become far too difficult or he'll find a war to distract us all or something or other. He allowed Brown to make promises he knew he had no intention of honouring.
Problem is Ephe, Cameron (well, Crosby & Osborne really) is winning at the moment, they are dividing, they are ruling. His fag packet proposals yesterday had the purpose, as you rightly say, of delaying (probably fatally, in his view) the promises made to you & your fellow Scots last week; but they were also about stitching up things South of the Border to the advantage of him and his Party. Miliband, quite rightly, has distanced himself from them and as a result he, Labour (and most especially Gordon Brown) are now being painted as the villains of the piece; the number of "Labour is dead in Scotland" tweets I have seen, from people who should know better, is frankly terrifying - don't they realise they are giving Cameron exactly what he wants?

Maybe I'm naive, but I think Miliband and Labour nationwide (I accept that there are problems with Scottish Labour that need addressing) give the Scots the best chance of getting what was promised last week, and returning power to the English regions in a sensible and measured way at the same time; the fact they have been talking about this, to an extent, for several months (and long before the promises of this week) suggests that their plans are better thought through. But what do I know, I'm a fucking stupid English Labourite who knows no better apparently, my opinion is worthless in this instance.

Everything I feared is coming to pass, and the thought of five more years of Tory rule gifted to them on a plate terrifies me; I know I wouldn't survive it, that is for sure.

Thank you, TGS.

I am not "a fellow scot" - I am English and I live in Wales. I am, though, as you know, a supporter of Scottish Independence - and a supporter of regional autonomy, proportional representation, and reform if not abolition of the House of Lords.

You are no more "fucking stupid" than I am. I agree with you that Labour's ideas are better-thought-through than anything Cameron might dredge up; it's going in the right direction, but I fear that they have scuppered their support in Scotland because of their support for No (at least, until Brown stepped in). And now it seems that Cameron has no intention of honouring the promises he made and encouraged Brown to campaign on - I can't see Brown standing for that without ructions.

What is really annoying me now is some of the stuff I'm hearing from those who appear to believe that England gets the short straw in terms of funding etc. when that is manifestly untrue - bits of it do. Some areas get plenty - and it's not spent fairly. The spend on infrastructure before 2010 in Teeside was £3 a head, in London about £1,200 - since the coalition got in, the gap has got even worse. In Wales it's £8. I appreciate that places and needs differ, but this is the sort of thing that a lot of people don't know and the sort of thing that any English devolution must address.
England is now, apparently, a place which Cameron thinks he can impose new constitutional arrangements on - unlike Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, England will have its' devolution decided by the Tories right now, without consultation, and without the same democratic process enjoyed by the other three countries. I have no doubt whatsoever that should Cameron somehow contrive to do this, he will ensure that already poor regions get less and the favoured ones (ie. the Tory shires and London) will get the most. Labour's ideas certainly go some way to address that.

My deepest concern is that Cameron will use this whole business to entrench his political position - which is not good for England, Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland. And as you say, if the Tories get into office again I don't think I could survive it either.

What I do believe is this - I owe the Scots a debt of gratitude for showing the world that it is possible to get nearly an entire country engaged in discussion on what being a country means, on what self-determination means, on how democracy can move people to vote in very high numbers when they have something to be passionate about.

What happens next is in the lap of the gods - Hubris and Nemesis come to mind - and I hope that we can move on (here and elsewhere) from unnecessary polarisation. We are, as they say in China, living in very interesting times.

The "fucking stupid" reference is because I have been called that by people I considered friends, and thought sensible, for offering opinions no different from the ones I have offered here. And it shows that Cameron (or Crosby) has won. We're beaten. The SNP paved the way for Thatcher, they are now going to gift the future to Cameron and people will still blame it all on Labour & Miliband. Ach, what is the point.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 12:09 pm

I don't see why Labour should have any difficulty in articulating simply and clearly what David Cameron is trying to do. He may be gussying it up in waffly terminology - but really it's quite straightforward. As are the reasons not to do it - for the sake of the Scots and everyone else.

Edited to add -

The gloves will probably have to come off in order to do it - but so what?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 12:20 pm

Ap0logies if anyone has already posted the link...

http://gordonandsarahbrown.com/2014/09/ ... um-speech/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 12:23 pm

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/pipe/ ... or-change/

Ed in Manchester this morning. He must be knackered by now.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 12:25 pm

The "fucking stupid" reference is because I have been called that by people I considered friends, and thought sensible, for offering opinions no different from the ones I have offered here. And it shows that Cameron (or Crosby) has won. We're beaten. The SNP paved the way for Thatcher, they are now going to gift the future to Cameron and people will still blame it all on Labour & Miliband. Ach, what is the point.

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That's awful - awful that people should say that to you simply because your views may not always concur. I've had it too.

But I don't think we are beaten - the SNP (Tartan Tories, according to lefty pals in Glasgow, doughty campaigners for Yes, BTW) have a lot to answer for historically; but that's true of many if not all political parties. Labour and Atos spring to mind.
I'm not convinced that the SNP now have gifted the future to Cameron; they fought a campaign with the tools Cameron allowed them to have. Had Devo Max been a ballot option, none of this nonsense would be going on now.

It's divide and rule - and boy does it work. Cameron took a gamble, he assumed that the Scots would want to stay in the union, and when it looked as though they might not, he relied on Labour to save his fat arse. And they did - Brown especially. Cameron is now expressing what should be abject gratitude with more typical arrogance and it's disgraceful.

What really pisses me of is the media - who seem to be doing what they can to blame Labour for getting them what they wanted. There's a sick psychology in resenting the very person who has saved your life - and where there is credit, Cameron will take it; where there is dissent or anger, Labour will be given the blame.

Don't give up hope, TGS. Whatever my/your/our/others political inclination may be, whatever we think about the past few weeks and any sequelae to them, we can still fight and we can still support Labour to a victory in the GE. That's what I intend to do - if Labour let me down in government, they may get my card back; but for now, they are the hope for a better country and a better way.

I've got some leaflets to post while the conference is on. Can't do any today, as I'm not very well. But however nasty the in-fighting gets I am still hopeful that things can change for the better.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 12:48 pm

ephemerid wrote: But I don't think we are beaten - the SNP (Tartan Tories, according to lefty pals in Glasgow, doughty campaigners for Yes, BTW) have a lot to answer for historically; but that's true of many if not all political parties. Labour and Atos spring to mind.
I'm not convinced that the SNP now have gifted the future to Cameron; they fought a campaign with the tools Cameron allowed them to have. Had Devo Max been a ballot option, none of this nonsense would be going on now.

I'm stupid enough to think that Labour might have learned from their mistakes, there are certainly signs that they have. And you're spot on about Devo Max, and about the SNP fighting the campaign only with the tools they were allowed; but I'm concerned that in the aftermath bitterness has overruled native common sense, and that will be our undoing.

ephemerid wrote: It's divide and rule - and boy does it work. Cameron took a gamble, he assumed that the Scots would want to stay in the union, and when it looked as though they might not, he relied on Labour to save his fat arse. And they did - Brown especially. Cameron is now expressing what should be abject gratitude with more typical arrogance and it's disgraceful.

What really pisses me of is the media - who seem to be doing what they can to blame Labour for getting them what they wanted. There's a sick psychology in resenting the very person who has saved your life - and where there is credit, Cameron will take it; where there is dissent or anger, Labour will be given the blame.

Cameron and the media are only following their nature, what really pisses me off is people who should have more sense buying the media line so completely.

ephemerid wrote:Don't give up hope, TGS. Whatever my/your/our/others political inclination may be, whatever we think about the past few weeks and any sequelae to them, we can still fight and we can still support Labour to a victory in the GE. That's what I intend to do - if Labour let me down in government, they may get my card back; but for now, they are the hope for a better country and a better way.

I've got some leaflets to post while the conference is on. Can't do any today, as I'm not very well. But however nasty the in-fighting gets I am still hopeful that things can change for the better.

Thanks for the support Ephe. I hope you are right but, at the moment, things look every bit as bleak as I thought they might.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 12:58 pm

Cameron and the media are only following their nature, what really pisses me off is people who should have more sense buying the media line so completely.

I share your frustration with the MSM - but then so do the Scottish Yes voters and yet still they had an immensely successful grassroots campaign. (Like I say, a don't like nationalism, but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate the immensity of the popular support their compaign engendered). This is what Miliband - and his American advisor - almost certainly want to do, but they need to be prepared to - as PF puts it - take the gloves off now and then if it's going to work. Particularly against the tide of scapegoatery you're seeing at the moment.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 1:03 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:Good morning to all on another day of childishness in our political world.....

I am getting really angry at those Tories and how they cannot do anything for the good of the country, but are alway focused on what is in it for them and how they maintain their grip , to them their right, on power

The Westminster Parliament is the UK Parliament - the WLQ doesn't arise because the UK Parliament should vote on all legislation coming before them

The second point is that there is a need to devolve power in England. It isn't defensible that the 'English' do not have the same level of responsibility of the devolved regions

This English devolution needs to be put together very carefully and needs to be linked into how we realateto the other devolved countries in the Union. ersonally I see an English Parliament as a non-starter - it has to have a regional flavour

These are big questions and very, very difficult to decide what to do. In effect we would need to throw away our current structure and redesign something fit for purpose

I would like to see some maturity from all sides - the way that the original Scottish devolution was done can show how parties can work together. Any devolved English system will need PR of some form. I think the high level principle could be done quite quickly ie a regional or national English Parliament but the detail will take years

Of course we will not see this maturity and the years of arguing to come will diminish us as a country

Just to add, I despise Cameron.....he has been the worst PM in living memory - he is a destroyer and doesn't seem to have an ounce of sense in that bum-like head of his!

Hear bloody hear. The Westminster assembly is the national parliament. National, as in UK wide, and as you point out, the MPs are elected to it from all parts of the UK. If something is before it, then all MPs should participate, contribute and vote. Full stop. The individual national assemblies sort out the problem of regionalism by having powers of variance over national legislation, particular powers and responsibilities and their own legislative powers.

What's missing from this very sensible system is regional assemblies and powers within England. An 'English parliament' - as the Tories want - is no answer at all. If anything it would skew regional differences even more in favour of whichever party has the bulk of English MPs, and would reflect where they represent most numerously. I wouldn't agree to it, even if it were a Labour majority, as the temptation purely to think of one's own patch would be too tempting. The idea that a Tory majority would approve legislation that would favour the north is simply risible and insupportable. Also, such a body representing about 50-55 million people makes a joke of any sense of regionalism and misses the point by a country mile.

The answer is English regional, democratically elected assemblies. Again, what suits the north may not suit the south west (in fact it almost certainly wouldn't), and I cannot comprehend any idea that the south east shares enough common interests with the north east. So, let's have these assemblies working with nationally passed legislation, butvarying it as is suitable, plus with delegated powers a la Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Yes, it would cost money, but I don't think that democracy can be done on the cheap and anyway the reductio ad absurdum for that is pointing out that dictatorship is probably far less expensive than parliamentary democracy.

This is where the Labour party should be heading. Lay the plans, identify the regional boundaries, figure out the powers, set a workable timetable and then after May 2015, get it enacted.

Thoughts on this?

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 1:12 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Cameron and the media are only following their nature, what really pisses me off is people who should have more sense buying the media line so completely.
I share your frustration with the MSM - but then so do the Scottish Yes voters and yet still they had an immensely successful grassroots campaign. (Like I say, a don't like nationalism, but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate the immensity of the popular support their compaign engendered). This is what Miliband - and his American advisor - almost certainly want to do, but they need to be prepared to - as PF puts it - take the gloves off now and then if it's going to work. Particularly against the tide of scapegoatery you're seeing at the moment.

So why are those same Scottish Yes voters now accepting the spin of the MSM so readily? They know they lie, yet now they are eagerly & obediently lapping it up.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 1:13 pm

Thoughts on this?

Totally agree. Is this something that the Hannah Mitchell foundation (or whatever it is) is working on?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 1:14 pm

@Rebecca

I'm so glad you managed to rescue your cat. I bet you were more traumatised than her in the end.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 1:16 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote: So why are those same Scottish Yes voters now accepting the spin of the MSM so readily? They know they lie, yet now they are eagerly & obediently lapping it up.

Because a) people aren't rational b) these particular people are angry and c) since the Guardian first started publicly hating and bullying Gordon Brown, Labour have been tarred as the cause of all evil. Since the MSM and general public aren't going to sort this out on Labour's behalf, Labour have to do it just as Salmond did. It's like when academics started worrying about funding in the 80s but did nothing about it but moan quietly. And that's still all they do.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 1:18 pm

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ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 1:19 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
Cameron and the media are only following their nature, what really pisses me off is people who should have more sense buying the media line so completely.
I share your frustration with the MSM - but then so do the Scottish Yes voters and yet still they had an immensely successful grassroots campaign. (Like I say, a don't like nationalism, but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate the immensity of the popular support their compaign engendered). This is what Miliband - and his American advisor - almost certainly want to do, but they need to be prepared to - as PF puts it - take the gloves off now and then if it's going to work. Particularly against the tide of scapegoatery you're seeing at the moment.
So why are those same Scottish Yes voters now accepting the spin of the MSM so readily? They know they lie, yet now they are eagerly & obediently lapping it up.

It's the blame culture.
If something goes tits up no-one says, oh well it was one of those things.
Or: My fault, I didn't do that right or properly, never mind. I'll know better next time.

Instead they have a need to 'blame' someone/anyone and Conservatives are masters of it.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 1:19 pm

Ernst

Not surprisingly I agree with you agreeing with me

I fail to see the difficulty in understanding the principle that we have a UK Parliament (so assume that it is people doing it on purpose) who then would give approval to a devolution bill transferring powers to other bodies. That is what happened with all the other devolutions

I think we also see that all the other devolved assemblies came into existence after much discussion and referenda. This seems to be the most sensible approach and to be honest they haven't worked too badly. All under Labour Government

No we get to the most complex devolution - England - and we have the Incompetents trying to force it through after a bit of a think from Wee Willie. This will take years and is why I would think that a Constitutional Convention up to 2020 followed by an all-party proposal going to referendum and elections a couple of years later.

A more rapid timetable may be possible but should not be expected or promised

None of this should prevent the promises may to the Scots. If I am honest that promise was not very wise as it would be better to do all this together and also consider Wales and NI as well. This piecemeal approach is not very wise or efficient but we have seen enough broken promises and the Scottish people deserve better.

The question of English devolution has been scooted round for years and was always going to come to a head one day. Why Cameron is so interested this close to an election just re-emphasises his incompetence and I am sick of the media giving him a free reign

He is the worst PM I have ever come across and another 5 years of him and his gang fills me full of concern

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 1:25 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Thoughts on this?
Totally agree. Is this something that the Hannah Mitchell foundation (or whatever it is) is working on?

Not as far as I know, but I can't see much wrong with it, other than the fucking Taxpayers Alliance (run from France, I note) bleating on about bureaucracy and cost. Well, if that's the case, then as I pointed out a one man dictatorship and the abolition of parliament is a very cheap option and gets rid of masses of bureaucracy.

Cameron's idea is simply a quick and highly partisan fix to a question of great subtlety and depth. It's also extremely mean minded and thoroughly divisive - I can see why he and the Tory party like it so much.