Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by **adam** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm

It would be good if Labour stepped up with something comprehensive and long term here - a 2020 project for a constitutional convention on regionalism, federalism, PR, a written constitution ... you can't fuck about piecemeal with major constitutional reform. If a deadline for a wide ranging decision making process can prompt something of the national conversation that happened in Scotland up to the referendum then that would be a very good thing, even if it came to nought.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 1:43 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote: I share your frustration with the MSM - but then so do the Scottish Yes voters and yet still they had an immensely successful grassroots campaign. (Like I say, a don't like nationalism, but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate the immensity of the popular support their compaign engendered). This is what Miliband - and his American advisor - almost certainly want to do, but they need to be prepared to - as PF puts it - take the gloves off now and then if it's going to work. Particularly against the tide of scapegoatery you're seeing at the moment.
So why are those same Scottish Yes voters now accepting the spin of the MSM so readily? They know they lie, yet now they are eagerly & obediently lapping it up.
It's the blame culture.
If something goes tits up no-one says, oh well it was one of those things.
Or: My fault, I didn't do that right or properly, never mind. I'll know better next time.

Instead they have a need to 'blame' someone/anyone and Conservatives are masters of it.

Spot on. And tinyclanger is right, no rationality at the moment; lines in the sand are being drawn rather than take a moment or two for reflection. And that doesn't allow much of a way back when tempers have cooled; if you've entrenched your position it ain't too easy to move it later.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 1:58 pm

This is how they do it ... are doing it ... privatising the ground from beneath us - probation service workers randomly farmed out to private firms, all non teaching jobs being outsourced, and they will find a million and one ways to do this across the NHS too.

Academy chain accused of 'privatisation by stealth' over plan to outsource jobs
Academy Enterprise Trust wants for-profit body to take over non-teaching posts such as librarians and secretaries
http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... by-stealth
The largest academy chain in the country is seeking to outsource all non-teaching posts in its 77 schools, from librarians to caretakers, to a for-profit organisation within the next month...

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 2:02 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09 ... K+Politics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nuff said.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 2:11 pm

Witnessing the debate in Scotland over the last few weeks, I found the passion and conviction with which Labour campaigners and politicians fought for our party's values so inspiring.

It made me reflect on what first drove me to get involved in Labour politics, back in the early 1990s. Margaret Thatcher was still in Number 10, and there was a sharp divide between the haves and have-nots.

I was one of the have-nots. There wasn't much to go around, but my dad made sure I was surrounded by books — and because of him I got into college. It was there just before the 1992 election that I decided to become a Labour member.

I wanted a government with a different set of priorities — a government that would be on the side of the people I knew, the people on my street. And above all, I joined the Labour Party because I wanted Britain to be a fairer place.

That's my Labour story — and I'd love to hear yours. Why did you join Labour?

Share your story

Thank you — I'm looking forward to reading your stories.

Best,

Gloria

Gloria De Piero
Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 2:12 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote: So why are those same Scottish Yes voters now accepting the spin of the MSM so readily? They know they lie, yet now they are eagerly & obediently lapping it up.
It's the blame culture.
If something goes tits up no-one says, oh well it was one of those things.
Or: My fault, I didn't do that right or properly, never mind. I'll know better next time.

Instead they have a need to 'blame' someone/anyone and Conservatives are masters of it.
Spot on. And tinyclanger is right, no rationality at the moment; lines in the sand are being drawn rather than take a moment or two for reflection. And that doesn't allow much of a way back when tempers have cooled; if you've entrenched your position it ain't too easy to move it later.

But it CAN be done - it's happened here, Recent, like.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 2:17 pm

But it CAN be done - it's happened here, Recent, like.

Indeed. Thank you Scotland. So let's do it (but not in any Andy Murray type way)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 2:19 pm

Apologies for gratuitous dancing smiley. I have always liked it and couldn't resist.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 2:20 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:This is how they do it ... are doing it ... privatising the ground from beneath us - probation service workers randomly farmed out to private firms, all non teaching jobs being outsourced, and they will find a million and one ways to do this across the NHS too.

Academy chain accused of 'privatisation by stealth' over plan to outsource jobs
Academy Enterprise Trust wants for-profit body to take over non-teaching posts such as librarians and secretaries
http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... by-stealth
The largest academy chain in the country is seeking to outsource all non-teaching posts in its 77 schools, from librarians to caretakers, to a for-profit organisation within the next month...

This one has been around for a few months - what's new is that Lord Nash has said that the DfE have the final say if it goes ahead.

http://academiesweek.co.uk/letter-expos ... tsourcing/

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 2:27 pm

Actually a decent BTL debate on this LDV piece re Cameron / Tories' hurried rush to stitch up the English with devo-sham (it's not even devo-lite, is it?).

Good to see that many of those LDs BTL can see right through Cameron - and all the problems, and weakening of our constitution and democracy, that will result from his top down approach to supposedly solving the West Lothian question.

Shame that Clegg probably won't listen to any of them - and will continue to abase himself in front of Cameron and will, unless there is a monumental challenge from his party including the other LD MPs, let this abomination through as well as all the rest of the shite he's allowed.

Paul Tyler writes… Pledge in haste, repent at leisure
http://www.libdemvoice.org/paul-tyler-w ... 42491.html

Cameron is trying to create a 'permaTory' country in England - pure and simple. It ought to be resisted by all other parties ... at all levels ... what is needed is a big engagement with real people to sort this out - not something imposed by London politicians.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 2:38 pm

It seems to me that Labour is the only party currently attempting to get on with it in good faith.

Indeed, which is why we need to bring in some honest thugs who can drive a tractor through said steaming bag of shite. Honour and intellect are necessary to provide the right solutions to the actual problems - but they will not get us heard in the current cultural climate.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 2:40 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09 ... K+Politics

Nuff said.
Good grief. Did Westminster also rig all but two of the opinion polls? Perhaps they rigged Alex Salmond's victory speech as well so he accidentally resigned? The hard truth is that No was always ahead. Irvine Welsh's narrative of a sudden army of no voters winking into existence at the last moment to overcome the popular 'vibrant' democracy of the Yes campaign on the brink of victory is, to put it politely, a gargatuan sack of steaming shit.

Between the sore losers on the Nat side and the scheming Tories ganging up to shaft Labour, the only bloody honest brokers in the whole sorry shower, I am losing patience. I was prepared to be conciliatory, and I can still understand the powerful draw of a new country, but the result's in and we have to try and get on with it. It seems to me that Labour is the only party currently attempting to get on with it in good faith.

The video 'hard evidence' of supposed rigging during the count is attracting a fair bit of derision on Twitter.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 2:49 pm

@Howsillyofme:

Just to add, I despise Cameron.....he has been the worst PM in living memory - he is a destroyer and doesn't seem to have an ounce of sense in that bum-like head of his!

I'll argue with you on one point.

Cameron isn't the worst in your lifetime. He's going down in the history books as the worst ever along with other terms such as unpopular, inept, reviled, charlatan, and duplicitous.
And, I hope the historians add that because of his skill as a natural liar, he was the perfect scapegoat egged on by his rebellious MPs to renege on Scottish Referendum promises in order to stay in power for a second term in the 2015 GE.

I shan't be here to read it, but I fervently hope a footnote at the bottom of the page states that despite Conservative machinations. Ed Miliband won, and went on to become a popular long serving PM, and highly respected elder statesman.

So there. That's fixed

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 2:51 pm

Are there any attack dogs left who aren't bloody Blairites?

As someone mentioned earlier - we need real people in politics. The Oxbridge footsoldiers for the ruling elite simply cannot effectively represent this country alone - even if they sincerely mean to.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 2:52 pm

Time for a bit bigger donation than I normally give.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 2:53 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Time for a bit bigger donation than I normally give.

You read my mind. (Not, I hasten to add, with regard to the size of your own donation!)

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 3:00 pm

The snag is, being caring and compassionate about your fellow man with a strong wish to make the world a better place, doesn't necessarily make a good MP.

It's a vicious career path with behind the scenes ambition and back stabbing that can match anything on the outside.

I doubt there's a politician out there who can hand on heart say they achieved everything they originally set out to do without a lot of compromise.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 3:06 pm

There are of course those who choose politics because they see it only as a career. A job that can lead to a great deal of power.

Which is the type we have ruling us at present.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 3:14 pm

RS - I like it. I kind of knowledge exchange approach to politics. I'm in.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 3:28 pm

Cameron is related to Harry Mount, Boris Johnson and Brenda (and indeed by some circuitous path to Samantha if I recall correctly). The aristos' time is up. (We can keep the royals for tourism, but they don't get to ask for the odd extra 60 million quid to feed the corgis).

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 3:58 pm

@RebeccaRiots:
Cameron is trying to create a 'permaTory' country in England - pure and simple. It ought to be resisted by all other parties ... at all levels ... what is needed is a big engagement with real people to sort this out - not something imposed by London politicians.

That's definitely what the Cons are up to...

I've just had a Eureka moment.

This is their last desperate chance to keep power. They know by the polls they're not going to make it in 2015, or have enough LibDems or UKIP to bail them out.

It's back against the wall time and Cameron the air headed lying knob, is perfect for the job because he's toast no matter what so what better scapegoat than him?

But, if Ed's the wiley politician that we suspect he is [Syria etc] then he'll have a plan. Brown's not stupid either. He's won't go in like a bull in a china shop and damage the party.

I refuse to believe they didn't have an inkling of what might happen. Blimey, we're suspicious enough about the Conservative's motives, and we don't have access to the gossip and rumours in Westminster.

They wouldn't have made promises they suspected they couldn't keep.

Keep the faith!

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 4:00 pm

ohsocynical wrote:But, if Ed's the wily politician that we suspect he is [Syria etc] then he'll have a plan. Brown's not stupid either. He's won't go in like a bull in a china shop and damage the party.

I refuse to believe they didn't have an inkling of what might happen. Blimey, we're suspicious enough about the Conservative's motives, and we don't have access to the gossip and rumours in Westminster.

They wouldn't have made promises they suspected they couldn't keep.

Keep the faith!

Indeed.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 4:09 pm

And when Ed's had a chance to outline what he plans for the regions, which sounds a good idea, then I reckon people will start coming round.

A read just a single line the other day saying:

Ken Clarke warns: changing the constitution is an extremely lengthy process.

MsChin · Post by **MsChin** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 4:18 pm

ohsocynical wrote:And when Ed's had a chance to outline what he plans for the regions, which sounds a good idea, then I reckon people will start coming round.

A read just a single line the other day saying:

Ken Clarke warns: changing the constitution is an extremely lengthy process.

It’s come to something when you find yourself thinking that what Ken Clarke says is reasonable!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 4:19 pm

"I will ensure that as a promise keeper these promises that have been made will be upheld."

Gord in the Guard
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... mon-future

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 4:24 pm

The Coalition has degraded our political system, and damaged democracy and society so much there is little chance of life as we remember it returning. Let alone improving on it.

We are so damaged I think it's a case of picking over the ruins and making the best of a bad job.
Ed is the one politician who is capable of doing it because he's a wise head on young shoulders, and will grow into the job if he's given a chance, but I fear anyone expecting miracles or Utopia in four years or even eight, is going to be disappointed.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 4:31 pm

PorFavor wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Time for a bit bigger donation than I normally give.
You read my mind. (Not, I hasten to add, with regard to the size of your own donation!)

The only good thing about losing our cat is we will be saving a chunk of money on her vet, food and medication bills, made a donation to Labour yesterday and will be seeing if I can set up a direct debit every month.

The only thing is, I do wonder if I should split my donations between The Labour Party, The Welsh Labour Party & Ceredigion branch.

What do others do ?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 4:32 pm

Slight change of topic.

Illinois judge rules police entitled to Swat raid over parody Twitter account
Swat team burst into Peoria house looking for source of parody Twitter account that had upset town’s mayor

US school districts get machine guns and grenade launchers

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/s ... oria-mayor

One of those times when you are shaking your head over what's happening to your country, and then read the above and realise it could be a lot worse.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 4:33 pm

Have just noticed we've got our political titles back.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 4:37 pm

yahyah wrote:Have just noticed we've got our political titles back.

I missed them, so set it up again this morning.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 4:38 pm

yahyah wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Time for a bit bigger donation than I normally give.
You read my mind. (Not, I hasten to add, with regard to the size of your own donation!)

The only good thing about losing our cat is we will be saving a chunk of money on her vet, food and medication bills, made a donation to Labour yesterday and will be seeing if I can set up a direct debit every month.

The only thing is, I do wonder if I should split my donations between The Labour Party, The Welsh Labour Party & Ceredigion branch.

What do others do ?

Being under the wing of Westminster as it were my money goes straight up the road to Labour headquarters with the expectation they'll use it where it can do the most good. eg: oust a Tory.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 4:42 pm

refitman wrote:
yahyah wrote:Have just noticed we've got our political titles back.
I missed them, so set it up again this morning.

I think there's a few here who'd like to see 'pain in the arse' for mine

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 4:49 pm

Has anyone else noticed TobyLatimer is posting and re-Tweeting a lot of anti Ed, anti Labour stuff?

I've been missing his sense of humour when he posted on here, but he seems to have changed.

It's puzzling. If I didn't know him better it almost looks as if he wants more of what we have right now.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 4:59 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Has anyone else noticed TobyLatimer is posting and re-Tweeting a lot of anti Ed, anti Labour stuff?

Puzzling. Does he want more of what we have right now?

I've given up trying to understand what is going through their heads - Toby, Ron, T&C, Waxy ..... they seem determined to make it easy for the Tories. Seems we don't only have to fight the Tories, we've got to fight them as well, hence my pessimism at the moment.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 5:06 pm

A small diversion from the topics of the day ...

We met our new Labour parliamentary candidate for Preseli Pembs yesterday evening. What a breath of fresh air. I feel far more positive about doing some campaigning in N Pembs now ... and that deseating Crabbe The Incumbent is entirely possible. (I like that just made up word - deseating - it gives me a vision of a pair of trousers with the arse torn out of them ...)

He's a very personable, down to earth, straight talking, open and local person - no airs and graces - leader of the Labour group on the county council. Not parachuted in. Not looking to be a one stop wonder. Already identified some issues that really matter to local people - chief among them the unlawful payments made to Pembrokeshire CCs Chief Exec which he has challenged and mounted an excellent campaign to get paid back to the people of Pembrokeshire. He's happy to put the work into North Pembs - which hasn't really been done before - and we'll be out with him knocking on doors and chatting to villagers etc pretty soon.

We've got a plan - or the start of one - and that always makes me feel a bit more energised and focused.

Lots of interesting chat about Labour (reflective, not shying away from the problems but also looking for solutions), politics of the Welsh and Westminster varieties.

Here's a question no one could really answer last night - so I offer it to FTNers who might know more than we did. Is there a Labour Rural movement anywhere?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 5:12 pm

hence my pessimism at the moment

I think it's an age-old problem. Idealists, motivated by a desire to make things better, tend to split into smaller and smaller groups as they fail to agree on every point or definition. This inevitably makes them less able to fight those motivated only by money and power, and who don't care whether they agree with each other or not in order to form temporary coalitions of greed. So the big coalitions win and the highly fragmented rest of us remain on our personal moral highground. I would rather win than be "right" when it comes to ousting the Tories, but there are many who would rather be "right" than win. It's the whole means to the end argument in one form or another. So it is tricky but it's an approach which nevertheless dooms us to failure. Maybe we need to think about acceptable limits of certain means to certain ends, rather than writing them all off.

In short, I supsect that idealists need to focus on what they have in common rather than where they disagree if they (by which I mean we) are ever going to improve anything.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 5:13 pm

I'm glad it's not just me that has wondered what's come over people. It is all very depressing.

& RR2

Was going to ask you how it went last night, you must be psychic.

About rural Labour, am sure I had an email from the party about something like that, but may be imagining it. Some sort of consultation process ?

Just going to get ready to go out this evening, [supper at The Talbot at Tregaron, re-born as a gastro pub, shame as the old incarnation was ok] but will search my emails tomorrow to see if I can find it.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 5:18 pm

Good to see Labour are opposing the potential AET outsourcing.

olivercoppard
‏@olivercoppard
So @nick_clegg, if you're serious about opposing privatisation of schools, will you work with me to oppose this... http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... by-stealth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

olivercoppard
@olivercoppard
Labour's Parliamentary Candidate in Sheffield Hallam,

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 5:19 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
hence my pessimism at the moment
I think it's an age-old problem. Idealists, motivated by a desire to make things better, tend to split into smaller and smaller groups as they fail to agree on every point or definition. This inevitably makes them less able to fight those motivated only by money and power, and who don't care whether they agree with each other or not in order to form temporary coalitions of greed. So the big coalitions win and the highly fragmented rest of us remain on our personal moral highground. I would rather win than be "right" when it comes to ousting the Tories, but there are many who would rather be "right" than win. It's the whole means to the end argument in one form or another. So it is tricky but it's an approach which nevertheless dooms us to failure. Maybe we need to think about acceptable limits of certain means to certain ends, rather than writing them all off.

In short, I supsect that idealists need to focus on what they have in common rather than where they disagree if they (by which I mean we) are ever going to improve anything.

Good post.

Heard a Labour member on Radio 4 today, waiting for the conference to start.
He attacked Brown & Darling for neo-liberalism and said the best thing they could do was announce that Labour would privatise the financial services industry.
Great idea, but what is the snowball's chance in hell that Labour would get elected with such a policy ?

My family are Italian and have done some reading about the situation there pre & post WW2.
Being very simplistic about it, the Italian left were so busy splitting themselves into warring factions no surprise Mussolini got what he wanted.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 5:40 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
hence my pessimism at the moment
I think it's an age-old problem. Idealists, motivated by a desire to make things better, tend to split into smaller and smaller groups as they fail to agree on every point or definition. This inevitably makes them less able to fight those motivated only by money and power, and who don't care whether they agree with each other or not in order to form temporary coalitions of greed. So the big coalitions win and the highly fragmented rest of us remain on our personal moral highground. I would rather win than be "right" when it comes to ousting the Tories, but there are many who would rather be "right" than win. It's the whole means to the end argument in one form or another. So it is tricky but it's an approach which nevertheless dooms us to failure. Maybe we need to think about acceptable limits of certain means to certain ends, rather than writing them all off.

In short, I supsect that idealists need to focus on what they have in common rather than where they disagree if they (by which I mean we) are ever going to improve anything.

Some here will recall that I expressed similar views on Sparrow's blog, the day of Ed's irredeemably dumb Sun World Cup photo, and was pretty much savaged because of it. As I've said before, there is a time for idealism & radicalism and a time for pragmatism; doing the latter gets you closer to the time when you can be radical. Erm, imo.

Cards on the table. If there was a realistic alternative that was more radical, I'd vote for it; if we had PR and not FPTP I'd probably vote Green (I have done before) - as an aside I'd love to know how many of those whining about FPTP voted in the AV referendum, let alone voted for it, flawed as it was. But there is no realistic alternative, so we work with what we've got and work to change that nearer to what we want, for the good of all and not just for a select few, or a select region.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 5:44 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... croft-poll

74% of yes voters "disaffected with Westminster politics". And still Cameron continues as normal and the Scots buy into Ed being the root of all evil.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 5:48 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Has anyone else noticed TobyLatimer is posting and re-Tweeting a lot of anti Ed, anti Labour stuff?

Puzzling. Does he want more of what we have right now?
I've given up trying to understand what is going through their heads - Toby, Ron, T&C, Waxy ..... they seem determined to make it easy for the Tories. Seems we don't only have to fight the Tories, we've got to fight them as well, hence my pessimism at the moment.

This is a general observation, not a comment on Toby, who I don't know and have no idea what motivates him.

Conservatives are often lambasted for being self interested, which they are.

However groups with a financial or other interest in a cause can also be very self interested, the reason they don't vote Conservative because to do so would be against their interests.

It follows that this type of person isn't left wing, they align with left wing causes because they It fit their own selfish agenda. So if the Labour Party isn't doing exactly what they want then they become just another hostile political party. These people actually don't care about others being hurt by the Tories just their own sectional interest, so they don't see any moral differences between political parties other than in terms of their interests.

Some of the most left wing Socialist Worker types I knew turned into far right Tories as they got older, they are just being consistent. When they have no money their demands are -"rich people give me your money." When they have money their demands are -"Poor people keep your hands off my money."

If you consider that left wing people may actually not be left wing it makes sense.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 5:50 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... croft-poll

74% of yes voters "disaffected with Westminster politics". And still Cameron continues as normal and the Scots buy into Ed being the root of all evil.

A small minority on social media are not the group entity known as the Scots.

Yes dominated the internet, still got their arses kicked.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 6:00 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Good to see Labour are opposing the potential AET outsourcing.

olivercoppard
‏@olivercoppard
So @nick_clegg, if you're serious about opposing privatisation of schools, will you work with me to oppose this... http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... by-stealth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

olivercoppard
@olivercoppard
Labour's Parliamentary Candidate in Sheffield Hallam,

From the Guardian comments on the story.

Quaestor
20 September 2014 12:48pm

What on earth Price Waterhouse Coopers knows about education I'd be interested to find out. It would not take long.

Note to Cameron - reverse ferret. When you have lost Quaestor you have lost everybody.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 6:03 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Has anyone else noticed TobyLatimer is posting and re-Tweeting a lot of anti Ed, anti Labour stuff?

Puzzling. Does he want more of what we have right now?
I've given up trying to understand what is going through their heads - Toby, Ron, T&C, Waxy ..... they seem determined to make it easy for the Tories. Seems we don't only have to fight the Tories, we've got to fight them as well, hence my pessimism at the moment.

I mainly joined Twitter to give me something else to read, and I particularly like humour. Plenty of that on there.

but after adding people with the same sort of views as me, I realised I needed to see what the opposition were saying and added some conservative MPs. I quite enjoy putting them down when it warrants it. However, I don't like spiteful snarky Tweets. Can't see that they help the cause and they aren't laugh or smile funny, so sadly I'm un-following him.

It was plain that Toby is very unhappy with how the disabled are being treated and quite right too. Although I have a few health problems I come nowhere near some of the posters that have been and are currently on FTN, so I'm in no position to preach. To say I know how you feel is crass, because I can't know exactly.
It's sad though to see him reacting the way he is. It feels negative, and I'm wary of negative. It rots the soul and doesn't do the body any favours either.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 6:06 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
hence my pessimism at the moment
I think it's an age-old problem. Idealists, motivated by a desire to make things better, tend to split into smaller and smaller groups as they fail to agree on every point or definition. This inevitably makes them less able to fight those motivated only by money and power, and who don't care whether they agree with each other or not in order to form temporary coalitions of greed. So the big coalitions win and the highly fragmented rest of us remain on our personal moral highground. I would rather win than be "right" when it comes to ousting the Tories, but there are many who would rather be "right" than win. It's the whole means to the end argument in one form or another. So it is tricky but it's an approach which nevertheless dooms us to failure. Maybe we need to think about acceptable limits of certain means to certain ends, rather than writing them all off.

In short, I supsect that idealists need to focus on what they have in common rather than where they disagree if they (by which I mean we) are ever going to improve anything.
Some here will recall that I expressed similar views on Sparrow's blog, the day of Ed's irredeemably dumb Sun World Cup photo, and was pretty much savaged because of it. As I've said before, there is a time for idealism & radicalism and a time for pragmatism; doing the latter gets you closer to the time when you can be radical. Erm, imo.

Cards on the table. If there was a realistic alternative that was more radical, I'd vote for it; if we had PR and not FPTP I'd probably vote Green (I have done before) - as an aside I'd love to know how many of those whining about FPTP voted in the AV referendum, let alone voted for it, flawed as it was. But there is no realistic alternative, so we work with what we've got and work to change that nearer to what we want, for the good of all and not just for a select few, or a select region.

Yep!

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 6:32 pm

Afternoon All

I've just been catching up on another lively and thoughtful set of posts here.

Reflecting on recent events, and what people have said about them here, I think the Referendum has just brought into the open some deep-rooted shifts in the political make-up of our Isles that were already underway. So the Referendum was perhaps not a game changer per se, rather it's forced us all to acknowledge how our society is changing.

I have noted before that, with the Lib Dems still locked into their hideous Coalition, Labour is now the only Unionist party in the UK. Indeed, the 'One Nation' tag can be used again by Labour with some real resonance now. But 'One Nation' specifically precludes large parts of the class warfare way of thinking that, of course, created Labour in the first place. Understandably, I think, there are those that will not accept this as valid. Perhaps Labour should just say goodbye to them and wish them well as they fight, with great conviction, for the causes they hold dear.

The opportunity for Miliband next week is to speak to an audience who may only recently have engaged with politics, who do worry about the relationships between the countries of the UK and the place of the UK in the EU, but are not attracted by the Bullingdon brigade or UKIP. Gordon Brown struck a chord didn't he by espousing exactly this kind of internationalist perspective? Let's imagine a new UK where we no longer tug forelocks to the Queen, the Lords and the feral elite in the City. Where we recognise that our world class health and education systems are stronger from the Union. Where yes we give a stronger voice to Scotland, but also to Wales and the English regions.

This referendum tells me that there are a lot of folk out there who would welcome these conversations. Labour needs to be open to them. The Greens probably already are. We need to get them here. The conventional media should speak to them too.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 6:58 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Has anyone else noticed TobyLatimer is posting and re-Tweeting a lot of anti Ed, anti Labour stuff?

Puzzling. Does he want more of what we have right now?
I've given up trying to understand what is going through their heads - Toby, Ron, T&C, Waxy ..... they seem determined to make it easy for the Tories. Seems we don't only have to fight the Tories, we've got to fight them as well, hence my pessimism at the moment.
This is a general observation, not a comment on Toby, who I don't know and have no idea what motivates him.

Conservatives are often lambasted for being self interested, which they are.

However groups with a financial or other interest in a cause can also be very self interested, the reason they don't vote Conservative because to do so would be against their interests.

It follows that this type of person isn't left wing, they align with left wing causes because they It fit their own selfish agenda. So if the Labour Party isn't doing exactly what they want then they become just another hostile political party. These people actually don't care about others being hurt by the Tories just their own sectional interest, so they don't see any moral differences between political parties other than in terms of their interests.

Some of the most left wing Socialist Worker types I knew turned into far right Tories as they got older, they are just being consistent. When they have no money their demands are -"rich people give me your money." When they have money their demands are -"Poor people keep your hands off my money."

If you consider that left wing people may actually not be left wing it makes sense.

Beautifully explained. Logical. And fits in with people that I knew when young. Labour voter, bought a shop, or got a better job, made money and from then on voted Conservative.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 6:58 pm

Should have added. But not all of them.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 7:13 pm

#Labour fringe event #badgercull debate MONDAY info here,panel Tim Coulson, Dominic Dyer, Phil Latham, Den Leonard pic.twitter.com/zVDkXIUwIE

Livestream link for #badgercull debate Monday " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … #labourconference RT pic.twitter.com/LEagJGdB1V