Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 7:39 pm

I remember TobyLatimer upbraiding me for one of my posts (can't remember what it was about) and saying that I'd think differently if I was in a state of terror over the next brown envelope which came through the letterbox. When I pointed out that, actually, I was he then suggested that I had "the wrong sort of condition" (without knowing anything about me in that way) to fit his criteria. (I obviously paraphrase.)

Some people are single-issue campaigners. He did make me laugh, though.

Goodnight, everyone.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 8:17 pm

PorFavor wrote:I remember TobyLatimer upbraiding me for one of my posts (can't remember what it was about) and saying that I'd think differently if I was in a state of terror over the next brown envelope which came through the letterbox. When I pointed out that, actually, I was he then suggested that I had "the wrong sort of condition" (without knowing anything about me in that way) to fit his criteria. (I obviously paraphrase.)

Some people are single-issue campaigners. He did make me laugh, though.

Goodnight, everyone.

Night PF

I miss his humour too.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 8:28 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Has anyone else noticed TobyLatimer is posting and re-Tweeting a lot of anti Ed, anti Labour stuff?

Puzzling. Does he want more of what we have right now?
I've given up trying to understand what is going through their heads - Toby, Ron, T&C, Waxy ..... they seem determined to make it easy for the Tories. Seems we don't only have to fight the Tories, we've got to fight them as well, hence my pessimism at the moment.
I suppose people follow political parties for various reasons. If people's main focus is, say, social security, then Labour's rather timid, triangulating approach to that area would have those people feeling that Labour is no real improvement on the Tories - even if there are significant policy areas where they are an improvement. I think I can say that if Labour's policy on the NHS was to basically stick to Tory marketisation and fragmentation but claim that they'd execute it in a slightly more efficient, slightly fairer way then I'd have a really hard time supporting Labour. Fortunately we have Andy Burnham, and Miliband has a much more public-sector approach to the NHS than the Blairites did.

So though it causes me a great deal of pain to see other progressives being so downright nasty about Labour, I think I can understand it.

I suppose politics need to be personal to some extent otherwise who would bother to vote.
I don't like the idea though of just voting for your own needs.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 8:51 pm

I think Toby is very disappointed in some of the rhetoric coming from Byrne, and more recently, Reeves. I don't blame him either - I feel the same way; but there was no real excuse for how he treated PF at the time. I thought he'd apologised but perhaps I'm mistaken.

I think the others - who talk a lot of sense the rest of the time - are losing their heads a bit over the referendum. I can understand why - I had a lot of hope that a Yes vote would be what the Scots went for, and I'm disappointed as are some of my friends. But that's done.

I get very passionate about things at times - I have done so here, and recently. I often get close to throwing my toys out of the pram - but I try to wind the film on a bit..... and I invariably find that if I make peace on one issue, even just agree to differ, for me there are usually more similarities with people than differences.

With Labour, I get so exasperated when they do something daft. I have a lot of time for Ed, and I think he has the makings of a statesman. But some of his cabinet let him down - Reeves is a case in point. "Tougher than the Tories" indeed.
I think the people who have lost it a bit assumed that Labour would support self-determination, and were annoyed when they not only didn't but saved Cameron's lardy arse for him - with the predictable result that Cameron would take the credit, then shit on them from on high by not doing what he promised. I'm not sure how the logic leads them to blame Labour for that, though....

Some of these issues make people very stroppy. This place and some of the people here are not immune. Me included, obviously.
I also think - and I have felt this on a few occasions - that people here can be tribal. Not often, but when it happens it's not nice.
This is not a place where criticism of Labour goes down very well - I think that's what upset Toby and Herons Flight more than anything else (correction - I know that for a fact). I have to say here that I often feel like saying something about some issue I have with Labour's stance on something-or-other, but don't - because I can't be doing with what can ensue at times.

I was quite close to leaving the other day. I still think that some of the things said about Yes campaigners were not fair and in some comments just wrong (and no, I'm going there again, so don't worry) and it was uncomfortable for me because I felt that I was quite isolated.
I think Robert Snozers put it well - I don't like Labour-bashing although I understand it; when it comes from a sincerely-held belief especially.
But I also think it's eminently justified to express a view on where Labour is failing without feeling as though I have to dodge brickbats.
It's not an unreasonable thing to ask in light of my experience. Which is, of course, entirely subjective - but there have been few times over the past few days when I have felt that s few people here have been projecting; less so than on CIF where some people I hold in the highest respect under normal circumstances have done the same thing. For every Ron and Lac, there's an opposite number - especially on the cartoon threads.

This is just stream-of-consciousness stuff. You can take it or leave it.
It's something we do in AA all the time - think up it, down it, through it, round it; then share our thoughts with the people who matter.
For me, this place matters and the people in it matter. That's all.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 8:59 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote: I've given up trying to understand what is going through their heads - Toby, Ron, T&C, Waxy ..... they seem determined to make it easy for the Tories. Seems we don't only have to fight the Tories, we've got to fight them as well, hence my pessimism at the moment.
I suppose people follow political parties for various reasons. If people's main focus is, say, social security, then Labour's rather timid, triangulating approach to that area would have those people feeling that Labour is no real improvement on the Tories - even if there are significant policy areas where they are an improvement. I think I can say that if Labour's policy on the NHS was to basically stick to Tory marketisation and fragmentation but claim that they'd execute it in a slightly more efficient, slightly fairer way then I'd have a really hard time supporting Labour. Fortunately we have Andy Burnham, and Miliband has a much more public-sector approach to the NHS than the Blairites did.

So though it causes me a great deal of pain to see other progressives being so downright nasty about Labour, I think I can understand it.
I suppose politics need to be personal to some extent otherwise who would bother to vote.
I don't like the idea though of just voting for your own needs.

If my grandfather had just been concerned with his own needs, and the needs of his family, he would have shut up & meekly hoped to be picked for work at the wharf gates; but he fought for all, even though that ended up with him being blacklisted and unable to work there any longer. But his efforts were appreciated by others, and he was given the chance to train in a new field, and became a baker.

If he had just been concerned with his own needs, and the needs of his family, during the War he could simply have done his own job (as a reserved occupation he was not called up) and then gone home. But he joined the Auxiliary Fire Service as a volunteer, fought the fires at the warehouses from which he had been blacklisted, came close enough to a flying V-1 later in the conflict that he could have touched it.

He wasn't concerned with his own needs, but fought for the rights of friends, family and strangers alike, to build a better life for all. In later life, an invalid dying slowly from emphysema, he remained every bit as passionate, every bit as engaged. I 'inherited' my politics (and my insatiable thirst for knowledge) from him; I also inherited the contempt with which he held those who undermined the fight. As today has gone on I have grown angrier (perhaps a healthier attitude than my earlier pessimism at people telling me to wake up, that I am blind, that I am being conned and should join with them.

Not all the Yes campaigners are the same, Ephe has shown that, but this very vocal minority are in danger of making a bad name for many sensible and well meaning people. Well in the spirit they have been showing this afternoon, with their tweets for #EverybodyCanFuckRightOffDay, they can fuck right off! I have no time for any group who concentrates on advancing their own interests at the expense of so many others, and then tries to claim they they are more socialist than me! It isn't a contest, it is about helping each other and, at the moment, they are helping nobody but themselves.

Apologies for the language but, as you can tell, they've got under my skin just a touch.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 9:25 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09 ... 54138.html

WTF?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 9:39 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09 ... 54138.html

WTF?

Well. What was that supposed to be about? It's what my mother would call a space filler.

I wonder if the 'journalist', was one of those that Huffington doesn't pay so any old crap will do.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 9:42 pm

Excuse musings.

I developed my views at an early age,only on one issue have I changed my mind to any degree(assisted suicide)as far as I can recall.The only change I've made is perhaps being more tolerant of other views,a tolerance that only serves to amplify my own views.My disdain for the Tory party remains as ever gainsaying the "You'll be voting Tory by the time your thirty"refrain used throughout my youth.I wonder how many of the accusers of betrayal will retain their views.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 9:53 pm

It does look as though - in addition to some sensible folk going AWOL - there is an orchestrated BTL campaign to just trash Labour in a tone akin to the moronic end of the yesser spectrum. It will need to be fought.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:07 pm

If you really want your blood pressure to rise he read what that tosser Jenkin (nepotism, non-entity loaded stooge) has written in the G.

If Miliband is smart he can secure devolved government and paint the Tories as corrupt despots.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:15 pm

He is willing to consider the role of Scottish MPs, but say this can't be done in a huge hurry to suit the Tories. The convention, he insists, is a way of making sure the people have their say on everything from the future of the House of Lords (he backs an elected senate with representatives from all parts of the UK) to devolution to the regions .......

Now we're talking! This could be a very interesting Conference, sounds like Ed is ready for the fight.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... id-cameron" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:16 pm

As I say, genuine question. If there are good reasons why tackling the orchestrated anti-Miliband campaign BTL will help, I'll happily reconsider my views

.

It needs to be fought by Labour reframing the political dialogue, by it expanding the ways that it communicates, by understanding that different forms of communication resonate with different sectors of the electorate, by accepting just how despicable their opponents are, by deploying bruisers when necessary, by getting the right people to deliver the right message in the right place for the right situation.

I don't say that we expend energy responding to the mass of tripe in the G - almost as much a source of shame as the BBC TV - but yes, in terms of an overall communication strategy, which Labour to date seem to lack (or at least I don't find it) it does indeed need to be fought.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:21 pm

sorry that (above) sounds a bit pompous - such a tone not intended!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:25 pm

I suppose people follow political parties for various reasons. If people's main focus is, say, social security, then Labour's rather timid, triangulating approach to that area would have those people feeling that Labour is no real improvement on the Tories - even if there are significant policy areas where they are an improvement. I think I can say that if Labour's policy on the NHS was to basically stick to Tory marketisation and fragmentation but claim that they'd execute it in a slightly more efficient, slightly fairer way then I'd have a really hard time supporting Labour. Fortunately we have Andy Burnham, and Miliband has a much more public-sector approach to the NHS than the Blairites did.

So though it causes me a great deal of pain to see other progressives being so downright nasty about Labour, I think I can understand it.

I can too in a way, but what puzzles me is that this government has attacked and [excuse my language] shat on just about every section of society, barring the rich of course. Despite all that, Mr Ohso and I have been lucky so far. We haven't suffered at the hands of the DWP, have no children being educated and so far haven't been inconvenienced too badly by the NHS cuts and don't have a decent private pension that's been decimated, and so on.
We are though, suffering badly from stagnant interest rates and rising prices which necessitates selling hour house to give us enough to see out what life we have left.

Suppose Cameron promised to up the State pension substantially, but was going to carry on with all the other cuts whilst Ed Miliband said sod the pensioners we must sort out all the other problems first.
I would still vote for and encourage the Labour Party, because it's for the greater good.
Although some of it was a long time ago, I remember what it's like to struggle to pay the bills, go without a meal in order to make sure the kids have enough, and what it's like to be a full time carer to both parents and run a business at the same time.

It''s not much of a leap to end up as selfish as the men that rule us...And what sort of world is that to leave to the young?

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:26 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:sorry that (above) sounds a bit pompous - such a tone not intended!

Should hope not. Pompous is my thing!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:31 pm

pompous dancing - I like it.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:34 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
He is willing to consider the role of Scottish MPs, but say this can't be done in a huge hurry to suit the Tories. The convention, he insists, is a way of making sure the people have their say on everything from the future of the House of Lords (he backs an elected senate with representatives from all parts of the UK) to devolution to the regions .......
Now we're talking! This could be a very interesting Conference, sounds like Ed is ready for the fight.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... id-cameron" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's a good article, isn't it. Bucked me up to hear Ed talking like that - and being very open in his assessment of Cameron's tricks and complete failure to understand what's required and, just for once, think a bit long term ... beyond his next photo opportunity and election gambit.

We need some more straightforward reporting of what Miliband is actually saying. For the first time in a while - I actually got a sense of vision from this piece.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:35 pm

Given their joint constitutional venture before referendum day, did Cameron ring him on Friday morning and share his relief at the result? "No," says Miliband. Should he have done? He doesn't answer directly. "I don't care really. Nothing he does on this kind of thing surprises me. That is how he is."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... id-cameron" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:38 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
He is willing to consider the role of Scottish MPs, but say this can't be done in a huge hurry to suit the Tories. The convention, he insists, is a way of making sure the people have their say on everything from the future of the House of Lords (he backs an elected senate with representatives from all parts of the UK) to devolution to the regions .......
Now we're talking! This could be a very interesting Conference, sounds like Ed is ready for the fight.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... id-cameron" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's a good article, isn't it. Bucked me up to hear Ed talking like that - and being very open in his assessment of Cameron's tricks and complete failure to understand what's required and, just for once, think a bit long term ... beyond his next photo opportunity and election gambit.

We need some more straightforward reporting of what Miliband is actually saying. For the first time in a while - I actually got a sense of vision from this piece.

Thought it was a good piece, surprising considering some of Toby Helm's recent output. The whining BTL is annoying me, I daren't comment or I'll get modded.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:42 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote: Now we're talking! This could be a very interesting Conference, sounds like Ed is ready for the fight.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... id-cameron" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's a good article, isn't it. Bucked me up to hear Ed talking like that - and being very open in his assessment of Cameron's tricks and complete failure to understand what's required and, just for once, think a bit long term ... beyond his next photo opportunity and election gambit.

We need some more straightforward reporting of what Miliband is actually saying. For the first time in a while - I actually got a sense of vision from this piece.
Thought it was a good piece, surprising considering some of Toby Helm's recent output. The whining BTL is annoying me, I daren't comment or I'll get modded.

Yes - probably best to stay away. Rustinpeace is already there. Must be on full time pay with overtime / bonuses for the amount of time he puts in.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:46 pm

TROLLS!
http://www.theguardian.com/science/head ... ife-trolls

Scores on the Dark Tetrad personality test revealed that trolls are, by far, more likely to have narcissistic, Machiavellian, psychopathic, and sadistic personality traits.
So the next time you find yourself reeling over a particularly hateful comment on your favourite website, take some comfort in knowing that you’re just another anonymous pawn in the internet troll’s game. They’ve got some serious personal issues going on that they might not even realise

Before I retire for the night, the above is a good way of shutting up persistent and nasty trolls. I've done it a couple of times...

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:48 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: It's a good article, isn't it. Bucked me up to hear Ed talking like that - and being very open in his assessment of Cameron's tricks and complete failure to understand what's required and, just for once, think a bit long term ... beyond his next photo opportunity and election gambit.

We need some more straightforward reporting of what Miliband is actually saying. For the first time in a while - I actually got a sense of vision from this piece.
Thought it was a good piece, surprising considering some of Toby Helm's recent output. The whining BTL is annoying me, I daren't comment or I'll get modded.
Yes - probably best to stay away. Rustinpeace is already there. Must be on full time pay with overtime / bonuses for the amount of time he puts in.

Oh Rusty doesn't worry me, he doesn't understand the big words anyway; and, yes, he'll be working hard this week trying to spin things for his bosses.

No, it is some of the others, people I used to respect, making a show of themselves. I'm trying to rise above it and hope they come to regret things when their heads are clearer.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:50 pm

The provocative move came as a Mail on Sunday poll showed big support in England for Mr Cameron’s home rule measures.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3DtYNC5lR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Home rule my arse. We really are crap aren't we.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:00 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
The provocative move came as a Mail on Sunday poll showed big support in England for Mr Cameron’s home rule measures.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3DtYNC5lR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Home rule my arse. We really are crap aren't we.

I am guessing the Mail Poll isn't scientific.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:02 pm

True. But it's very popular.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:10 pm

Its the sort of thing most people will say they support in a poll - "common sense" innit. Same with an English parliament.

Mind you, the same survey says twice as many people think Brown rather than Cameron did most to achieve a "no" vote.

Also a big margin thinks the three "main" party leaders *should* live up to their "vow" to Scotland.

Now, try making sense of all that

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:11 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
As I say, genuine question. If there are good reasons why tackling the orchestrated anti-Miliband campaign BTL will help, I'll happily reconsider my views
.

It needs to be fought by Labour reframing the political dialogue, by it expanding the ways that it communicates, by understanding that different forms of communication resonate with different sectors of the electorate, by accepting just how despicable their opponents are, by deploying bruisers when necessary, by getting the right people to deliver the right message in the right place for the right situation.

I don't say that we expend energy responding to the mass of tripe in the G - almost as much a source of shame as the BBC TV - but yes, in terms of an overall communication strategy, which Labour to date seem to lack (or at least I don't find it) it does indeed need to be fought.

Actually I think you are both right.

It needs to be fought in the media and on social media. However nobody reads the comments in the Guardian.

I rarely post there, other than the odd quick drive-by. It can safely be ignored.

Today however Temulkar is on fire.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:13 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
The provocative move came as a Mail on Sunday poll showed big support in England for Mr Cameron’s home rule measures.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3DtYNC5lR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Home rule my arse. We really are crap aren't we.

Well, Cameron is crap - and a lot of people seem very willing to go along with his particular brand of crap ... don't ask me why, I really, really don't know.

This fits a well established pattern of announcing a policy that is supposedly to fix one problem and then hijacking that policy to attach something entirely different - usually wholly vindictive and destructive - and then shouting abuse at Labour and the other parties when they can't support something that has been so twisted out of shape.

The gagging bill exemplifies this approach. Cameron vowed to deal with the scourge of lobbying ... what did we get - a bill that stifles charities and other people directed movements from expressing genuine concerns and campaigning.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:20 pm

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 20m
LAB lead moves to 5% in the S Times/YouGov poll
LAB 36% (+1)
CON 31% (-2)
UKIP 16% (+2)
LD 7% (-1)
GRN 5% (=)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:20 pm

We might be a bit crap, but we still don't deserve Cameron.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:29 pm

Cameron's attempt to hold on to power reminds me of someone trying to tickle a trout. The more you try to grab it the quicker it gets away. This Lynton strategy will backfire very badly for the tories if the opposition play the hand cleverly.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:37 pm

Unemployed man sets fire to job centre to get meal in police cells
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ob-6096469
... Gina Clayton, defending, said: “His benefits had been stopped for some reason and he hadn’t eaten for three days. He was simply desperate for some food. He went to the job centre to get his payments and lost his temper.

“He was aware that if he was arrested he would have been given food at the police station.”...

We certainly don't deserve this.

We can't survive another 5 years of this.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:52 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Temulkar wrote:Cameron's attempt to hold on to power reminds me of someone trying to tickle a trout. The more you try to grab it the quicker it gets away. This Lynton strategy will backfire very badly for the tories if the opposition play the hand cleverly.
I hope so. The Tories seem to have realised that they can get away with far more than they might have thought possible as long as they get the narrative right. The whole 'English votes' thing seems to be going down well and it's easy to paint opponents as not wanting to give the English their due. It's like 'manfeels' but for the South East.

And on the second part, though it pains me to say, HM opposition often don't seem to be able to play the hands their dealt all that cleverly

I think Gordon knows exactly what he is doing. Dave has already forgotten the Scots. That is a big mistake. This ploy could very well end up with thousands of scots on the streets protesting.

Dave has ignored the simple lesson of this referendum. Ultimate power resides in the people not in the Government.

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:59 pm

I've been keeping out of the whole Scottish independence thing, because its felt like an argument that isn't really anything to do with me, as a Welsh person living in England, and I've felt like I don't really know enough about the ins and outs of Scottish politics to stick my oar in (I've only been there twice, and that was both for T in the Park).

But now its over I'm amazed at the Tories attempting to use it as a way of grabbing power for themselves in their so called English Parliament, do they have no idea how utterly two faced it makes them look to have been offering the Scots the moon on a stick just a few days ago, and then just one day later, once the danger has been abated, they're all "oh, the real issue is poor old disenfranchised England and how these awful Scots control us all." How can any voter, English, Welsh or Scottish ever trust anything they ever say again, when they have shown themselves to be such utter liars who will say literally anything to get your vote and then piss in you face the next day. I thought "no top down reorganisation of the NHS" was the ultimate bare faced electoral lie, but even that palls in the face of such utter contempt for the electorate as has been shown in the past few days. Labour, Greens, even bloody UKIP need to constantly remind the voters of all this over the next 8 months, how you can never ever trust a word these people say, as they will say anything to get your vote.

Also, I can't really see how they hope to get any of this through parliament in the dying eight months of this administration. I know the LibDems have just bent over for pretty much everything the Tories have wanted, but if there is one thing the Libs do give a shit about its electoral reform, and having been thwarted by the Tories on their two big dreams of proportional representation and an elected House of Lords, things they were willing to sacrifice their whole reputation for, I can't see them just nodding through some half baked Tory idea of an English parliament, the entire point of which seems to be to thwart a future Labour government which the Liberals still have some hope of being a part of. Even the Liberals aren't that stupid.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 12:10 am

Tish wrote:I've been keeping out of the whole Scottish independence thing, because its felt like an argument that isn't really anything to do with me, as a Welsh person living in England, and I've felt like I don't really know enough about the ins and outs of Scottish politics to stick my oar in (I've only been there twice, and that was both for T in the Park).

But now its over I'm amazed at the Tories attempting to use it as a way of grabbing power for themselves in their so called English Parliament, do they have no idea how utterly two faced it makes them look to have been offering the Scots the moon on a stick just a few days ago, and then just one day later, once the danger has been abated, they're all "oh, the real issue is poor old disenfranchised England and how these awful Scots control us all." How can any voter, English, Welsh or Scottish ever trust anything they ever say again, when they have shown themselves to be such utter liars who will say literally anything to get your vote and then piss in you face the next day. I thought "no top down reorganisation of the NHS" was the ultimate bare faced electoral lie, but even that palls in the face of such utter contempt for the electorate as has been shown in the past few days. Labour, Greens, even bloody UKIP need to constantly remind the voters of all this over the next 8 months, how you can never ever trust a word these people say, as they will say anything to get your vote.

Also, I can't really see how they hope to get any of this through parliament in the dying eight months of this administration. I know the LibDems have just bent over for pretty much everything the Tories have wanted, but if there is one thing the Libs do give a shit about its electoral reform, and having been thwarted by the Tories on their two big dreams of proportional representation and an elected House of Lords, things they were willing to sacrifice their whole reputation for, I can't see them just nodding through some half baked Tory idea of an English parliament, the entire point of which seems to be to thwart a future Labour government which the Liberals still have some hope of being a part of. Even the Liberals aren't that stupid.

Hello Tish - been missing you.

I agree with pretty much all you say here. But whilst there may be some remaining Lib Dem members who still hold true to some of their former priorities and principles ... the yellow jellies they've got as ministers and mps seem to be perfectly able to forget about them and support the very worst excesses of Cameron and co.

You're right - if they have any jot of ethics, self respect or instinct for self preservation ... they would do the right thing and not support this blatant Tory power grab ... it's certainly not something that was in the coalition agreement (not that that's ever worried them before). But they don't inspire trust ... in fact that's the last thing they inspire.

Post by **adam** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 12:13 am

If the government do ram through something as dumb as their backbenchers seem to be salivating for, it will be the end of a united England within a decade or two, never mind a United Kingdom. I'm very much in favour of investigating, consulting and planning for UK of nations and regions, but a gerrymandered first-past-the-post English parliament will lead to everywhere outside the south-east wanting to go their own way.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 12:16 am

Martin Rowson @MartinRowson · 13h
Exhibition of Original Artwork from said Coalition Book up in @ConwayHall til end of October http://conwayhall.org.uk/martin-rowson-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 5% of last night's sales

@ConwayHall ...going to Proctology Dept in University College Hospital, to help them recognise a real bunch of arseholes when they see them

I do love this bloke.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 12:17 am

Hmm....anyone think that they might have thinking about this for a while?

Justice Secretary Grayling tells Scots MPs: Get off my lawn

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -lawn.html

A senior Cabinet minister tells Scottish Labour MPs to get off his territory, in a dramatic escalation of the battle for the future of British democracy.
Chris Grayling, the Justice Secretary, accuses Labour of seeking to erase England from the map of the United Kingdom as he declares that Scottish MPs should be banned from voting on his legal reforms.

I love the fact that the Justice Secretary hasn't the first clue about the law.

Wonder what he'll do if Labour say "So, what are you going to do if we vote against?"

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 12:25 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Hmm....anyone think that they might have thinking about this for a while?

Justice Secretary Grayling tells Scots MPs: Get off my lawn

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -lawn.html

A senior Cabinet minister tells Scottish Labour MPs to get off his territory, in a dramatic escalation of the battle for the future of British democracy.
Chris Grayling, the Justice Secretary, accuses Labour of seeking to erase England from the map of the United Kingdom as he declares that Scottish MPs should be banned from voting on his legal reforms.
I love the fact that the Justice Secretary hasn't the first clue about the law.

Wonder what he'll do if Labour say "So, what are you going to do if we vote against?"

You're not the first to be thinking that way. Take a look at this ...

Was this the real reason Cameron allowed the Scotland referendum?
http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2014/09/2 ... eferendum/

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 12:37 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Hello Tish - been missing you.

I agree with pretty much all you say here. But whilst there may be some remaining Lib Dem members who still hold true to some of their former priorities and principles ... the yellow jellies they've got as ministers and mps seem to be perfectly able to forget about them and support the very worst excesses of Cameron and co.

You're right - if they have any jot of ethics, self respect or instinct for self preservation ... they would do the right thing and not support this blatant Tory power grab ... it's certainly not something that was in the coalition agreement (not that that's ever worried them before). But they don't inspire trust ... in fact that's the last thing they inspire.

Aw, thanks, I have been reading every day, just felt I didn't really have anything to offer to the debate.

I think self preservation will be the key issue for the LibDems, even if Clegg is blind to the reality of their situation, the rest of them must realise that their salad days are coming to an end. The only tiny hope that they have for the future is that they might scrape into power as part of a Lib/Lab coallition, so I cant see them blowing that prospect by backing a Tory proposal that would make any such victory worthless.

Post by **adam** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 12:40 am

Good piece by Will Hutton in the Observer - After the Scottish referendum – David Cameron's cynical attempt to manipulate the constitution

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 7:06 am

"English votes for English laws"

Has more than just a touch of Royston Vasey to it doesn't it.

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 8:04 am

It seems that Andrew Mitchell wasn't quite the poor victim of malicious police officers that some of his friends have been desperate to portray him as. According to lawyers for The Sun he had a history of abusing the police officers who were meant to be protecting him.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 46501.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 8:23 am

Bizarre situation this morning seeing Labour being kicked on Twitter by some prominent left-wingers (Artist Taxi Driver for example) for pledging to increase the minimum wage to something close to the Living Wage (accounting for inflation) by 2020. Reaction is "£8? Is that all? We want £10! NOW!!!"

As one person on ATD tweet says, Labour are pledging to increase the NMW three times as fast as it has increased 2010-2015.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 8:56 am

Spacedone wrote:Bizarre situation this morning seeing Labour being kicked on Twitter by some prominent left-wingers (Artist Taxi Driver for example) for pledging to increase the minimum wage to something close to the Living Wage (accounting for inflation) by 2020. Reaction is "£8? Is that all? We want £10! NOW!!!"

As one person on ATD tweet says, Labour are pledging to increase the NMW three times as fast as it has increased 2010-2015.

A bigger issue is finding a way to get better quality jobs that pay more than minimum wage. The problem is in a world of large corporates and process - how?

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 9:04 am

Marr is starting now. Darling and EM are on.

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 9:14 am

frightful_oik wrote:Marr is starting now. Darling and EM are on.

After hearing Marr and those two newspaper people setting up the "it's all bad for Miliband" theme I switched off. It's too nice a day to start it by listening to this crap.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 9:19 am

Spacedone wrote:
frightful_oik wrote:Marr is starting now. Darling and EM are on.
After hearing Marr and those two newspaper people setting up the "it's all bad for Miliband" theme I switched off. It's too nice a day to start it by listening to this crap.

The woman is Isobel Hardman, of the Spectator & Telegraph, so hardly surprising she's anti-Labour.
Not sure who the man is.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 9:31 am

yahyah wrote:
Spacedone wrote:
frightful_oik wrote:Marr is starting now. Darling and EM are on.
After hearing Marr and those two newspaper people setting up the "it's all bad for Miliband" theme I switched off. It's too nice a day to start it by listening to this crap.

The woman is Isobel Hardman, of the Spectator & Telegraph, so hardly surprising she's anti-Labour.
Not sure who the man is.

Marr was worse than Hardman.

Man's an arse.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 21 Sep, 2014 9:41 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
"English votes for English laws"
Has more than just a touch of Royston Vasey to it doesn't it.

Indeed it does. I can just imagine going into that shop and asking that man behind the counter for a West Lothian humbug - and the response I might get.