Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

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yahyah
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by yahyah »

rebeccariots2 wrote:I've been sort of enjoying this thread / exchange today - in an appalled kind of way.
Jim Sillars
‏@NaeFear
Let Yes assert new indy rule – no more ref – majority votes and seats at Holyrood 2016 enough #the45

Kevin Schofield ‏@schofieldkevin 2h
Spoken like a true democrat .... " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Kevin Schofield ‏@schofieldkevin 2h
For Jim Sillars' strategy to work, the SNP's manifesto would have to say a vote for them is a vote for Indy. Good luck with that.

Jim Sillars ‏@NaeFear 2h
Queenie intervened for No as she did in 1979. So no more softly-softly – we go for Republic #the45

Kevin Schofield ‏@schofieldkevin 2h
If you're anywhere near Jim Sillars right now, unplug his laptop. It's for his own good.

I hadn't realised it but Jim Sillars was married to Margo MacDonald, the SNP politician who sadly died earlier this year.

One of the Scottish newspaper editors said on Twitter to cut him some slack, implying that losing his wife meant he may be not at his best at the moment, and stress & the referendum may be making him a bit odd.

Or maybe he's always been a loose cannon ?
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TechnicalEphemera
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

Really good of the media to report this :roll:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 46534.html

Wouldn't want to think the British public were missing out on their opportunity to download grainy images of naked celebrities doing stuff anybody with a pulse can do.

I still think that the media shouldn't be reporting this, that Apple and other cloud providers need a serious kicking and that the celebs involved have every right to take intimate photos of themselves. I also think a fringe benefit of this is that teenage girls (if they want) can finally see non airbrushed photographs of famous people.

Message - you look perfectly normal and famous people have body fat too. Now stop emailing naked pictures and remember it is really easy to impress men. Turn up naked - with beer.
Release the Guardvarks.
Spacedone
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by Spacedone »

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:No 10 states David Cameron will deliver on Scottish devolution promise
Downing Street moves to clarify intent after Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling challenge PM on voting rights for Scottish MPs

No 10 moved to clarify its thinking after Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling challenged the prime minister over his decision to link further devolution to Edinburgh to new restrictions on the voting rights of Scottish MPs.
[My Bold]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... on-promise

Hark - do I hear the thunder of back-pedalling emanating from the corridors of power?
No, but an ambiguity that was of some benefit to CMD has been removed.

Dave always intended the two issues would not be linked, however he allowed backbenchers to think they would be linked.

He faces a kicking now.

I want to see Parliaments of the regions, elected on FPTP with constituencies 1/3 the size of Westminster ones and elections every two years. To be held May. Regions would have all policies related to education, health, transport, welfare and industry devolved. Tax raising powers would be allowed, tax cutting powers not.

The UK parliament would allocate funding, set the budget including minimum tax rates in the UK, look after defence, law (Scottish law being an anomaly we have to live with) and broad cross region issues where required. This would include strategic UK transport infrastructure.
Agree on everything except FPTP. That will inevitably result in domination for one or another party depending on which region you are in eg Yorkshire would be dominated by Labour, the South East would be a perma-Tory fiefdom. That still leaves millions of people feeling as if they are unrepresented because they vote Green or are a Northern Tory or a Southern Labourite.

If we're going to change our constitution then we've got to do it in a way to maximise the political representation of the population even if that leads to our own chosen parties being diminished.
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LadyCentauria
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by LadyCentauria »

The police and Crown Prosecution Service are overlooking the severity of disability hate crime, the former director of public prosecutions has told the BBC.

Lord Ken MacDonald said police were failing to recognise that abuse of disabled people constituted hate crime.

This could prevent perpetrators from receiving increased sentences.
See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29277363 (This page contains a link to 5 Live Investigates, which is where he gave the interview.)
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ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

Laughing at the Hilarity Mantel fantasising about killing Thatcher article in The Independent, and the Tory outrage.

They're demanding the police investigate. In that case the coppers need to interview about 75% of the country.

When I was living through her reign of terror, I used to try not to have bitter thoughts about anyone, and remember torturing myself by thinking 'only the good die young'.
And she certainly proved that.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
gilsey
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by gilsey »

Cute pic of Ed and Justine at the top of AS blog at the G.

How phony would it look if it was CallMe and Sam?

Sorry for the trivia but constitutional matters make my brain hurt. :oops:
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TechnicalEphemera
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

Spacedone wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:No 10 states David Cameron will deliver on Scottish devolution promise
Downing Street moves to clarify intent after Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling challenge PM on voting rights for Scottish MPs

No 10 moved to clarify its thinking after Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling challenged the prime minister over his decision to link further devolution to Edinburgh to new restrictions on the voting rights of Scottish MPs.
[My Bold]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... on-promise

Hark - do I hear the thunder of back-pedalling emanating from the corridors of power?
No, but an ambiguity that was of some benefit to CMD has been removed.

Dave always intended the two issues would not be linked, however he allowed backbenchers to think they would be linked.

He faces a kicking now.

I want to see Parliaments of the regions, elected on FPTP with constituencies 1/3 the size of Westminster ones and elections every two years. To be held May. Regions would have all policies related to education, health, transport, welfare and industry devolved. Tax raising powers would be allowed, tax cutting powers not.

The UK parliament would allocate funding, set the budget including minimum tax rates in the UK, look after defence, law (Scottish law being an anomaly we have to live with) and broad cross region issues where required. This would include strategic UK transport infrastructure.
Agree on everything except FPTP. That will inevitably result in domination for one or another party depending on which region you are in eg Yorkshire would be dominated by Labour, the South East would be a perma-Tory fiefdom. That still leaves millions of people feeling as if they are unrepresented because they vote Green or are a Northern Tory or a Southern Labourite.

If we're going to change our constitution then we've got to do it in a way to maximise the political representation of the population even if that leads to our own chosen parties being diminished.
No, absolutely not. If you go with PR you will give UKIP a platform. The South East will be a UKIP Tory fiefdom. PR is back room deals stitched up by the elite. Small FPTP constituencies will be winnable by smaller parties.

If the SouthEast gets fed up with Tories it can vote them out. Don't want to live in Tory Land, move.
Release the Guardvarks.
yahyah
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by yahyah »

TechnicalEphemera wrote:Really good of the media to report this :roll:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 46534.html

Wouldn't want to think the British public were missing out on their opportunity to download grainy images of naked celebrities doing stuff anybody with a pulse can do.

I still think that the media shouldn't be reporting this, that Apple and other cloud providers need a serious kicking and that the celebs involved have every right to take intimate photos of themselves. I also think a fringe benefit of this is that teenage girls (if they want) can finally see non airbrushed photographs of famous people.

Message - you look perfectly normal and famous people have body fat too. Now stop emailing naked pictures and remember it is really easy to impress men. Turn up naked - with beer.

Or in my husband's case, turn up naked - with Captain Beefheart records.
ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:No 10 states David Cameron will deliver on Scottish devolution promise
Downing Street moves to clarify intent after Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling challenge PM on voting rights for Scottish MPs

No 10 moved to clarify its thinking after Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling challenged the prime minister over his decision to link further devolution to Edinburgh to new restrictions on the voting rights of Scottish MPs.
[My Bold]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... on-promise

Hark - do I hear the thunder of back-pedalling emanating from the corridors of power?
No, but an ambiguity that was of some benefit to CMD has been removed.

Dave always intended the two issues would not be linked, however he allowed backbenchers to think they would be linked.

He faces a kicking now.

I want to see Parliaments of the regions, elected on FPTP with constituencies 1/3 the size of Westminster ones and elections every two years. To be held May. Regions would have all policies related to education, health, transport, welfare and industry devolved. Tax raising powers would be allowed, tax cutting powers not.

The UK parliament would allocate funding, set the budget including minimum tax rates in the UK, look after defence, law (Scottish law being an anomaly we have to live with) and broad cross region issues where required. This would include strategic UK transport infrastructure.
So in other words: Dave unhooked from his brain, flapping his gob despite prior rumblings from around 70 of his MPs, consequently within 24 hours No 10 has had to 'clarify' the position, just as it's had to do countless times?
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

yahyah wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:Really good of the media to report this :roll:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 46534.html

Wouldn't want to think the British public were missing out on their opportunity to download grainy images of naked celebrities doing stuff anybody with a pulse can do.

I still think that the media shouldn't be reporting this, that Apple and other cloud providers need a serious kicking and that the celebs involved have every right to take intimate photos of themselves. I also think a fringe benefit of this is that teenage girls (if they want) can finally see non airbrushed photographs of famous people.

Message - you look perfectly normal and famous people have body fat too. Now stop emailing naked pictures and remember it is really easy to impress men. Turn up naked - with beer.

Or in my husband's case, turn up naked - with Captain Beefheart records.
Nah. Dressed for the arctic as long as I'm carrying a plate of home made sausage rolls...That does it every time :lol:
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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TechnicalEphemera
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:Really good of the media to report this :roll:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 46534.html

Wouldn't want to think the British public were missing out on their opportunity to download grainy images of naked celebrities doing stuff anybody with a pulse can do.

I still think that the media shouldn't be reporting this, that Apple and other cloud providers need a serious kicking and that the celebs involved have every right to take intimate photos of themselves. I also think a fringe benefit of this is that teenage girls (if they want) can finally see non airbrushed photographs of famous people.

Message - you look perfectly normal and famous people have body fat too. Now stop emailing naked pictures and remember it is really easy to impress men. Turn up naked - with beer.

Or in my husband's case, turn up naked - with Captain Beefheart records.
Nah. Dressed for the arctic as long as I'm carrying a plate of home made sausage rolls...That does it every time :lol:
It is much harder if you are a man.

If you want to impress a woman, turn up smartly dressed, with wine....

And a horse.
Release the Guardvarks.
yahyah
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by yahyah »

gilsey wrote:Cute pic of Ed and Justine at the top of AS blog at the G.

How phony would it look if it was CallMe and Sam?

Sorry for the trivia but constitutional matters make my brain hurt. :oops:

Don't apologise. It's been a heavy couple of weeks.
They do look rather nice together don't they.
yahyah
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by yahyah »

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
yahyah wrote:
Or in my husband's case, turn up naked - with Captain Beefheart records.
Nah. Dressed for the arctic as long as I'm carrying a plate of home made sausage rolls...That does it every time :lol:
It is much harder if you are a man.

If you want to impress a woman, turn up smartly dressed, with wine....

And a horse.

If you are wooing Catherine the Great, just send the horse.
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TechnicalEphemera
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

yahyah wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote: Nah. Dressed for the arctic as long as I'm carrying a plate of home made sausage rolls...That does it every time :lol:
It is much harder if you are a man.

If you want to impress a woman, turn up smartly dressed, with wine....

And a horse.

If you are wooing Catherine the Great, just send the horse.
No use whatsoever my horse is a mare. Unless she wants to be peed on Catherine is out of luck.
Release the Guardvarks.
yahyah
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by yahyah »

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
yahyah wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: It is much harder if you are a man.

If you want to impress a woman, turn up smartly dressed, with wine....

And a horse.

If you are wooing Catherine the Great, just send the horse.
No use whatsoever my horse is a mare. Unless she wants to be peed on Catherine is out of luck.

:lol: :lol:
PorFavor
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by PorFavor »

Goodnight, everyone.
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ephemerid
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by ephemerid »

New post on Johnny Void.

It's about the new psychological testing for all (yes, eventually, all) new JSA claimants, which Fester McVile announced the other week.

The tests will conducted by jobcentre staff allegedly. They will last .... a few minutes. The Void has a link to the PCS website, where there is a bit of a kerfuffle about the extra work, but not a lot of protest about unqualified people applying psych tests without qualified supervision.

The results, apparently, will establish jobseeker's "attutudes" to work, and suchlike sundry things. I daresay this will mean that anyone who does not have the right attitude will be given "support" which usually means more frequent attendance and ridiculous instructions all subject to sanction.

God help us all if the Tories get in again next year.
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by RogerOThornhill »

I asked rusty to explain what his own party's manifesto commitment meant - the but I posted earlier. His reply?
I wouldn't use the fact that everyone has ignored your post further down as an indication of a lack of ability to explain anything. They probably just saw your humiliating breakdown on this blog mid-week and, quite justifiably, decided that life is too short to bother with you.

Clutch at straws all you like. As I said, I'm sitting back and revelling in the Labour panic.
:D

Which roughly translates as "Haven't got a clue". Very good at trashing Labour all the time but very rarely says anything about the party of which he's a member.
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ephemerid
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by ephemerid »

New post on Welfare news Service.

Work programme this time. 13.8% of all JSA participants who have completed the full 2 years had a minimum of 6 months work.
9.5% of all ESA WRAG claimants who complete the full 2 years had a minimum of 3 months work.

What work they get is not long term or sustainable, and 2 years later 70% of those who do find work are unemployed again.
So, overall, 11.5% of all WP claimants get any work at all; allowing for those who are unemployed again after a short time in work, that means the WP "success" rate is about 8% for all claimants after 2 years. The targets set for WP job outcomes are 1 in 7 for JSA and 1 in 9 for ESA.

One of the problems with these outcome figures is that the results are measured not by verifiable jobs but by what DWP shells out in "job outcome payments" and there is a loophole which means that WP providers can claim a payment whether the claimant has a job or not.

There are also things that count as jobs but aren't really - eg. under the old IB/Permitted Work system, people could do bits of voluntary work which they can't now (because it makes them unavailable for work) but if a WP provider sends an ESA claimant to work in a charity shop for a few months not only is that a "job outcome" they also get to share £13,500 with the employer because it's actually workfare.

The worst offenders are Seetec (this is not from WSN) who take WP claimants, put them on a "course", then put them on workfare working for them for 6 months, then give them a "job" on NMW part-time for 6 months.
They get paid for "attachment" to the WP; they get paid for the "course"; they get at least £3,000 per JSA and £13,500 per ESA claimant for 6 months of free work - and when that runs out they give the claimant a "job" the wages for which costs them half the job outcome payment.
Then the temporary "job" comes to an end because there's no more money to get out of the claimant and back to the Jobcentre they go to be replaced by a new one.

It's blatant government-sponsored theft.
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by RogerOThornhill »

RobertSnozers wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:I asked rusty to explain what his own party's manifesto commitment meant - the but I posted earlier. His reply?
I wouldn't use the fact that everyone has ignored your post further down as an indication of a lack of ability to explain anything. They probably just saw your humiliating breakdown on this blog mid-week and, quite justifiably, decided that life is too short to bother with you.

Clutch at straws all you like. As I said, I'm sitting back and revelling in the Labour panic.
:D

Which roughly translates as "Haven't got a clue". Very good at trashing Labour all the time but very rarely says anything about the party of which he's a member.
I hope that post has been reported, it's an unjustifiable ad hom attack. Then again, it does indicate nicely the degree to which he has lost this particular argument
Don't start on the 'reporting posts' again - fortunately the dialogue with the liar HappyChicke got trashed by the mods late last week.
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TheGrimSqueaker
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

RogerOThornhill wrote:I asked rusty to explain what his own party's manifesto commitment meant - the but I posted earlier. His reply?
I wouldn't use the fact that everyone has ignored your post further down as an indication of a lack of ability to explain anything. They probably just saw your humiliating breakdown on this blog mid-week and, quite justifiably, decided that life is too short to bother with you.

Clutch at straws all you like. As I said, I'm sitting back and revelling in the Labour panic.
:D

Which roughly translates as "Haven't got a clue". Very good at trashing Labour all the time but very rarely says anything about the party of which he's a member.
Member and employee Rog, that latter part should not be forgotten.

He's been in serious damage limitation mode today, running around pretending everything is hunky dory for the boss; for somebody who claims to be "sitting back & enjoying it" (and, boy, has he used that line a lot today) he has been a very busy boy.

He's now avoided any direct contact with me for the best part of a fortnight, although he did try an oblique dig at me with an answer to the remarkably dim Pollysnemesis (I've personally never thought Polly had much to worry about there) and scurrying off to avoid answering me; quite funny really.
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by RogerOThornhill »

RobertSnozers wrote: Hmm, that's not a resurrection of 'MrsHappy' is it?

Not having been in Guardianland very much over the last year, what's the issue with modding now? Or is it the same old lefties getting moderated under severe provocation, while Tories and trolls spread their bile with impunity?
Could be MrsHappy but she hasn't mentioned cover teachers yet so doubt it. As to the other, yes, pretty much.
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TheGrimSqueaker
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

RobertSnozers wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:

No, absolutely not. If you go with PR you will give UKIP a platform. The South East will be a UKIP Tory fiefdom. PR is back room deals stitched up by the elite. Small FPTP constituencies will be winnable by smaller parties.

If the SouthEast gets fed up with Tories it can vote them out. Don't want to live in Tory Land, move.
I don't agree. I was born in the South East, and have lived for most of my life in safe seats under parties I didn't vote for. With PR I would have at least got some representation rather than none. Do I have to move away from my family just to be in a Labour heartland?

The SE might become a Ukip/Tory fiefdom, but with PR, the significant numbers of Labour, Green and even LibDem supporters would be able to vote for the party they wanted to vote for, knowing that their vote is worth precisely one vote as opposed to nothing at all.

Ultimately, I feel that any electoral system that doesn't represent the will of the people proportionally isn't fully democratic.
I tend to agree, I think PR would shake up the south east considerably and re-enfranchise (if that is a word) people whose voices are largely ignored at present; in fact I think you would see a lot more independents standing who though conservative by nature would not be Conservative by allegiance. It would mean the main three parties (and, in this context, the Lost Deposits could move back into contention) would have to up their game, no bad thing in itself (especially as flexibility is not a Tory strength).
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
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TheGrimSqueaker
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

Very interesting blog post from Mike Sivier, hits the nail firmly on the head. And the FOOL motif (Friend Of Ol' Lynton) definitely needs to go viral!
http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2014/09/2 ... the-blame/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
letsskiptotheleft
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by letsskiptotheleft »

RobertSnozers wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
I hope that post has been reported, it's an unjustifiable ad hom attack. Then again, it does indicate nicely the degree to which he has lost this particular argument
Don't start on the 'reporting posts' again - fortunately the dialogue with the liar HappyChicke got trashed by the mods late last week.
Hmm, that's not a resurrection of 'MrsHappy' is it?

Not having been in Guardianland very much over the last year, what's the issue with modding now? Or is it the same old lefties getting moderated under severe provocation, while Tories and trolls spread their bile with impunity?
Who was the troll who had an avatar of Ralph Vaughan-Williams, most active post 2010 election, and then of course there was EvilTory, Mizzentop, I sometimes wonder if they are all reincarnations of previous ''efforts'' doubt I am far wrong?
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frightful_oik
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by frightful_oik »

Is it just me or does Ed's wife remind anyone else of Amanda Burton?
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Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Paul Hutcheon ‏@paulhutcheon 11m
Mail on Sunday poll on Holyrood voting intentions has the LibDems on 3%. Brutal
:lol: :lol:
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ephemerid
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by ephemerid »

RogerOThornhill wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote: Hmm, that's not a resurrection of 'MrsHappy' is it?

Not having been in Guardianland very much over the last year, what's the issue with modding now? Or is it the same old lefties getting moderated under severe provocation, while Tories and trolls spread their bile with impunity?
Could be MrsHappy but she hasn't mentioned cover teachers yet so doubt it. As to the other, yes, pretty much.

HappyChickie is one weird woman......

I crossed swords with her a few times, and having told her the truth (backed up by the ONS....) she apologised and said she actually agreed with me that what was happening to benefit claimants, especially the sick/disabled, was very wrong.

But she seems to have returned to her old self again. I don't think she's the old MrsHappy.

Rusty is just a nasty vicious troll. He told me last week that I'd missed my vocation and should have been in health care instead of constantly whinging about benefits. He didn't respond when I told him what I used to do for a living......
I have emailed the community people weeks ago and told them I was very cross about his obvious trolling and that replies to him get modded when his nasty posts are allowed to remain. I never got a reply.
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
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ephemerid
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by ephemerid »

frightful_oik wrote:Is it just me or does Ed's wife remind anyone else of Amanda Burton?
It might be just you......

Justine Thornton/Miliband is a very attractive and expressive woman.

Amanda Burton is a bit of a plank.

I couldn't bear her in Silent Witless. So wooden, I had to turn the telly off.
(It's still a pretty witless show but at least Jack's eye candy and it's got the brilliant Liz Carr so I watch it now)
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

Alex Salmond says No voters were 'tricked'
The First Minister goes back on his promise to accept the referendum result and raises the prospect of Scotland unilaterally declaring independence.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... icked.html

We're being ruled by five year olds....
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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TechnicalEphemera
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

RobertSnozers wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:

I tend to agree, I think PR would shake up the south east considerably and re-enfranchise (if that is a word) people whose voices are largely ignored at present; in fact I think you would see a lot more independents standing who though conservative by nature would not be Conservative by allegiance. It would mean the main three parties (and, in this context, the Lost Deposits could move back into contention) would have to up their game, no bad thing in itself (especially as flexibility is not a Tory strength).
There's also the fact that Tories and Kippers hate each other, even though, or perhaps because, they share so much common ground. Even if they don't end up splitting the vote and letting others in, or being unable to work together, I'd be willing to bet that any Tory/Kipper coalitions would *really* bring any centre/centre-left voters out of apathy/the woodwork.

I've seen what local government looks like where there is no challenge to a single party hegemony, and it ain't pretty. Kent, for example, isn't that short of Labour supporters, but they're spread too evenly, meaning there are hardly any county councillors. Ironically it's Ukip that have shaken the Tories up a bit. Some committees used to be made up entirely of Tories with perhaps one or two LibDems if you were lucky (and I say that honestly - one of the only decent, effective Kent county councillors I ever met was a LibDem).

I think if Kent had PR, it wouldn't look quite so monotone. I'm not pretending the Tories wouldn't still be in charge, but they might at least get a bit of a prod now and then.

The problem with PR is that you might elect a representative but you don't choose the government. Even the Tories would eventually lose control of the South East. Under PR they would always form the government and on day one you start with a Torykip government.

If the GE had been PR our last governments would have been: Labour/LibDem, Tory/LibDem and our next one would be Tory/UKIP. I used to be in favour, but a split right wing, the arm up it gives to extremists and the fact parties just make up manifestos the day after the election have changed my mind.
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TechnicalEphemera
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

ohsocynical wrote:Alex Salmond says No voters were 'tricked'
The First Minister goes back on his promise to accept the referendum result and raises the prospect of Scotland unilaterally declaring independence.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... icked.html

We're being ruled by five year olds....
Scotland can unilaterally declare independence any time it likes, but it will be multilaterally ignored
Release the Guardvarks.
ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

ohsocynical wrote:Alex Salmond says No voters were 'tricked'
The First Minister goes back on his promise to accept the referendum result and raises the prospect of Scotland unilaterally declaring independence.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... icked.html

We're being ruled by five year olds....
Once again that f***kwit Cameron and his party have caused turmoil and confusion.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

ephemerid wrote: Rusty is just a nasty vicious troll. He told me last week that I'd missed my vocation and should have been in health care instead of constantly whinging about benefits. He didn't respond when I told him what I used to do for a living......
I have emailed the community people weeks ago and told them I was very cross about his obvious trolling and that replies to him get modded when his nasty posts are allowed to remain. I never got a reply.
I did! :) Got a couple of posts reinstated (wouldn't normally bother, but I was bored that night) and was told that he would be watched; while the instance of his own posts vanishing has stayed much the same since then, less of mine (in response to him) have been zapped since then, which may explain why he steering clear - the report button is his ultimate weapon for making it look as though he is in control.

I have suspicions as to the identity of HappyChickie, the posts are quite similar to a poster who used to be on Waddya a lot and she certainly used variations on "chickie" before. Not sure yet, but the first day we get a big I/P discussion on there should clinch it.
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

ohsocynical wrote:Alex Salmond says No voters were 'tricked'
The First Minister goes back on his promise to accept the referendum result and raises the prospect of Scotland unilaterally declaring independence.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... icked.html

We're being ruled by five year olds....
And YES voters voted for two completely incompatible visions.
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

All across this country there are a lot of people that vote Conservative and have done all their life. They are usually a bit better off, stiff upper lip, upright, law abiding, Royalists, love their country, sticklers for the 'old fashioned' values.

How the hell can they read about Dave's perfidy and the unrest that's been released in Scotland as well as the cowardly, cringe making acts of sheer incompetence that have unfolded over the last four and a half years --- and still vote Conservative?
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

And I guess Salmond hasn't been able to stop dreaming about being the man who led Scotland to Independence.

Ambition's a bugger.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

ohsocynical wrote:All across this country there are a lot of people that vote Conservative and have done all their life. They are usually a bit better off, stiff upper lip, upright, law abiding, Royalists, love their country, sticklers for the 'old fashioned' values.

How the hell can they read about Dave's perfidy and the unrest that's been released in Scotland as well as the cowardly, cringe making acts of sheer incompetence that have unfolded over the last four and a half years --- and still vote Conservative?
Habit.
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

PorFavor wrote:Goodnight, everyone.
Night PF :)
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:All across this country there are a lot of people that vote Conservative and have done all their life. They are usually a bit better off, stiff upper lip, upright, law abiding, Royalists, love their country, sticklers for the 'old fashioned' values.

How the hell can they read about Dave's perfidy and the unrest that's been released in Scotland as well as the cowardly, cringe making acts of sheer incompetence that have unfolded over the last four and a half years --- and still vote Conservative?
Habit.
Makes me want to slap them across the back of the legs, and say, don't encourage them!
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

Night PF.

Twitter is weird. I am now having a conversation with Martin Rowson about the reading habits of his (rather adorable) cat. A needed little light relief after the past few days.
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

ohsocynical wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:All across this country there are a lot of people that vote Conservative and have done all their life. They are usually a bit better off, stiff upper lip, upright, law abiding, Royalists, love their country, sticklers for the 'old fashioned' values.

How the hell can they read about Dave's perfidy and the unrest that's been released in Scotland as well as the cowardly, cringe making acts of sheer incompetence that have unfolded over the last four and a half years --- and still vote Conservative?
Habit.
Makes me want to slap them across the back of the legs, and say, don't encourage them!
Just like naughty toddlers? Sounds about right.

Shamefully my mother is a loyal Tory voter, perhaps a reaction to her own father's views; thankfully I take after him, not her, in this respect. :D
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ohsocynical
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote: Habit.
Makes me want to slap them across the back of the legs, and say, don't encourage them!
Just like naughty toddlers? Sounds about right.

Shamefully my mother is a loyal Tory voter, perhaps a reaction to her own father's views; thankfully I take after him, not her, in this respect. :D
This might not apply to your mum, but I think many of older Conservatives vote that way because in their minds it's somehow more respectable. The better class who were looked up to were Tory, whereas in their [my] childhood Labour very much represented the poor working class.

Respectable. Now there's a word that has a lot to answer for.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

ohsocynical wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
ohsocynical wrote: Makes me want to slap them across the back of the legs, and say, don't encourage them!
Just like naughty toddlers? Sounds about right.

Shamefully my mother is a loyal Tory voter, perhaps a reaction to her own father's views; thankfully I take after him, not her, in this respect. :D
This might not apply to your mum, but I think many of older Conservatives vote that way because in their minds it's somehow more respectable. The better class who were looked up to were Tory, whereas in their [my] childhood Labour very much represented the poor working class.

Respectable. Now there's a word that has a lot to answer for.
I think it applies very much, it is just such a stark comparison to the politics she was brought up with, with her father being so unflinchingly socialist in his outlook. He even dabbled with communism in his youth, always claimed he was in the same Party cell as Michael Foot, I was never sure if that had any truth to it or not.
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... r-bankrupt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

miliband-memo-britain-social-order-bankrupt
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

RobertSnozers wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:

This might not apply to your mum, but I think many of older Conservatives vote that way because in their minds it's somehow more respectable. The better class who were looked up to were Tory, whereas in their [my] childhood Labour very much represented the poor working class.

Respectable. Now there's a word that has a lot to answer for.
I think it applies very much, it is just such a stark comparison to the politics she was brought up with, with her father being so unflinchingly socialist in his outlook. He even dabbled with communism in his youth, always claimed he was in the same Party cell as Michael Foot, I was never sure if that had any truth to it or not.
My aunt was the same. She was very much of the aspirational working class who was so desperate to become middle class, and that meant voting Tory because that was what middle class people did. By extension, it then meant believing anything a Tory said and distrusting anything Labour said. I suspect Essex is full of people with similar views, as it was how Thatcher did so well and now Ukip is hoovering up people like that. My uncle just went along with anything he told her. My aunt died a couple of years ago, so now he goes along with anything his eldest daughter tells him, and she is on the worst side of immigrant-hating Ukippery.
I suspect that she is really, if she but knew it, a natural Lib-Dem but I've given up talking politics with her; the worst part is her loyalty to Dacre's rag. My stepfather was a member of the local Conservative club for a number of years, but that was largely down to the cheap beer.
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Well it's Labour Conference time!
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

The Staggers ‏@TheStaggers 18m
Balls announces that ministers' pay will be cut by 5% under Labour and then frozen. #lab14 http://bit.ly/1tNYkcj" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Staggers ‏@TheStaggers 2m
Balls also announces that child benefit increases will be capped at 1% for two years. #lab14 http://bit.ly/1tNYkcj" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

IndyPolitics ‏@IndyPolitics 7m
Labour Party Conference: Labour would abolish PCCs to save £50m http://ind.pn/1C1v8Bi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st September 2014

Post by LadyCentauria »

ephemerid wrote:New post on Welfare news Service.

Work programme this time. 13.8% of all JSA participants who have completed the full 2 years had a minimum of 6 months work.
9.5% of all ESA WRAG claimants who complete the full 2 years had a minimum of 3 months work.

What work they get is not long term or sustainable, and 2 years later 70% of those who do find work are unemployed again.
So, overall, 11.5% of all WP claimants get any work at all; allowing for those who are unemployed again after a short time in work, that means the WP "success" rate is about 8% for all claimants after 2 years. The targets set for WP job outcomes are 1 in 7 for JSA and 1 in 9 for ESA.

One of the problems with these outcome figures is that the results are measured not by verifiable jobs but by what DWP shells out in "job outcome payments" and there is a loophole which means that WP providers can claim a payment whether the claimant has a job or not.

There are also things that count as jobs but aren't really - eg. under the old IB/Permitted Work system, people could do bits of voluntary work which they can't now (because it makes them unavailable for work) but if a WP provider sends an ESA claimant to work in a charity shop for a few months not only is that a "job outcome" they also get to share £13,500 with the employer because it's actually workfare.

The worst offenders are Seetec (this is not from WSN) who take WP claimants, put them on a "course", then put them on workfare working for them for 6 months, then give them a "job" on NMW part-time for 6 months.
They get paid for "attachment" to the WP; they get paid for the "course"; they get at least £3,000 per JSA and £13,500 per ESA claimant for 6 months of free work - and when that runs out they give the claimant a "job" the wages for which costs them half the job outcome payment.
Then the temporary "job" comes to an end because there's no more money to get out of the claimant and back to the Jobcentre they go to be replaced by a new one.

It's blatant government-sponsored theft.
That is completely outrageous! You are right, it is blatant government-sponsored theft. It is a scam from start to finish – and as for WP providers being able to claim a job outcome payment whether or not the claimant really has a job! >insert foul language<
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