Tuesday 17th November 2015

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seeingclearly
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

ephemerid wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:
The human rights case would seem better, there was no due diligence, no impact assessments and anything that might have mitigated the policies in term of changing the detail has been vigourously denied to the point of taking it to the highet courts in the land, using the law to protect political decisions instead of people. As to culpability though, I am sure that IDS will haave covered his back well. Someone else will be expected to fall on their sword if it ever gets to that point. Diplomacy being what it is, I doubt it will. Which is why he laughs, he is untouchable and knows it.
You're right - the DWP has no "duty of care" and the ministers are not accountable in law for the deaths (untoward, or suicides).

But - it is the duty of government to ensure that policies are fit for purpose. Of course, that depends on what the purpose is.....

In the case of social security, historically at least, new benefits have been brought in gradually with mitigation over time as/when problems arise; and impact assessments have been good practice for many years when changes of the magnitude of the WRA and the H&SC Act are debated in both Houses and discussed at committee stage.
But Grayling pushed the WRA through by invoking Commons Financial Privilege - and as a total impact assessment was judged "too difficult" (even though the CAB and others did their own) t was never going to happen.

As I said earlier - nobody "has" to claim benefits. Those who do must comply with the conditions. The WRA has ensured that those conditions can be altered as and when ministers see fit.
There are no official targets. There are "projections" and "expectations", and any evidence that DWP staff are imposing targets is explained away by "over-zealous" local management.

IDS is untouchable - and he insists that he is "helping" people, he insists that he wants to tackle what he calls the root causes of poverty, and he will continue to get away with this until he is either unseated or we get a new government - or the cases currently being examined by UN Special Rapporteurs result in a human rights case brought against DWP.
It is a terrible place for disabled people to be in, they once they are adult, or unable to fulfil any ability to work, the do 'have to' claim, how would they live? By redefining ability work with no link or realistic commitment to actual work availability they have by semantics created a justification for their inhumane policies. Backed up of course by dubious studies and experts. All of which has been lapped up by the rest of the anglophone political technocrat world, who love this stuff, and buraeucrats everywhere else. From outside of a disability context this might make sense to the naive or the blinkered, from the inside it is terrifying.

More and more I feel that while continuing to campaign is vital and may bring tiny mitigations, under the politics we are lumbered with no real change is likely to emerge. I dream of something different, mainly for others, because it won't happen in time for me. When people attack Labour, and now attack Corbyn, they attack the hopes of many. They know that and do so anyway.
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Just picked up this - haven't been paying attention to Welsh Assembly stuff today. Welsh Govt obviously feel the need to put out a statement though.
Welsh Govt Statement on Social Care Zero Hours Contracts Ban.jpg
Welsh Govt Statement on Social Care Zero Hours Contracts Ban.jpg (56.8 KiB) Viewed 7313 times
David Deans ‏@DeansOfCardiff 27m27 minutes ago
Why the Welsh Government couldn't support Plaid's social care zero hour contract ban earlier today - statement
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seeingclearly
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

citizenJA wrote:
yahyah wrote:Wow, sounds of the wind outside are scary.
Yes - I went away from the computer to batten down the hatches.
My new wheely bins, not yet in use, keep on escaping into the road. They live in the only place they can, we've just laid them on their sides for everyones safety.
seeingclearly
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

Not enough squirrels to weigh them down.

RR, did those 40 lurching badgers from yesterday recover from their hangovers?
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Willow904
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by Willow904 »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34849263" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Germany's friendly with the Netherlands on Tuesday has been called off because of a "concrete security threat" against the city of Hannover.

Evacuation of the Hannover Stadium, which was hosting the match, began less than two hours before kick-off.
Public support for UK engagement in Syria is falling into place for Cameron and Corbyn will be left on the wrong side of public opinion for a spell, I suspect. It could be tricky for him for a while. Given the lack of backlash over Libya, Cameron could make a lot over this with little risk of being tarnished by any failures of a bombing campaign. V. depressing. Pushing for a considered UN plan of action, as Labour have been, is the right course of action and will probably be the route for solution eventually, but voters will be blind to the behind the scenes machinations and will probably reward the Tories at the ballot box, purely for the right kind of "fighting talk" at the opportune moment. Strange how these terrorists are better at getting hawkish right-wing maniacs what they want, rather than at getting a better life for them and theirs.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
seeingclearly
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

Fruitbread on offer after supper, sourdough, no added sugar, with cinnamon, nutmeg and real vanilla. Proper coffee, single estate tea or water. Please bring music or views to share, it sounds like it's going to be a noisy night.
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Willow904 wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34849263
Germany's friendly with the Netherlands on Tuesday has been called off because of a "concrete security threat" against the city of Hannover.

Evacuation of the Hannover Stadium, which was hosting the match, began less than two hours before kick-off.
Public support for UK engagement in Syria is falling into place for Cameron and Corbyn will be left on the wrong side of public opinion for a spell, I suspect. It could be tricky for him for a while. Given the lack of backlash over Libya, Cameron could make a lot over this with little risk of being tarnished by any failures of a bombing campaign. V. depressing. Pushing for a considered UN plan of action, as Labour have been, is the right course of action and will probably be the route for solution eventually, but voters will be blind to the behind the scenes machinations and will probably reward the Tories at the ballot box, purely for the right kind of "fighting talk" at the opportune moment. Strange how these terrorists are better at getting hawkish right-wing maniacs what they want, rather than at getting a better life for them and theirs.
I'm not so sure Cameron does have public opinion on his side, that's the sad thing. Miliband had public opinion on his side in 2014, and support for bombing Assad now is probably even lower than it was then.

As you say though, Cameron didn't get any electoral damage from being so wrong. It is very depressing.
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

The news from Germany re the evacuation of the football stadium is pretty staggering. Some reports say an ambulance packed full of explosives was found out front ...
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Simon Danczuk ‏@SimonDanczuk 5m5 minutes ago
Danczuk defends columns for ‘moderate’ papers as Corbynites circle http://www.totalpolitics.com/blog/45227 ... rcle.thtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … via @totalpolitics
Definitions of 'moderate' seem to be becoming ever more stretched. The Mail and the Sun - moderate?
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TobyLatimer
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by TobyLatimer »

With moderate friends like Richard Littlejohn & Katie Hopkins for company who needs enemies. He's welcome to his cesspit.
TR'sGhost
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by TR'sGhost »

RobertSnozers wrote: I think the problem with this is to see Ukip as a phenomenon of the right. I suspect a lot of working class people support them not because of any particular policy, but because they see them as anti-establishment.
......
By the way, has anyone in the media had a go at Farage's intellect because he never went to university? Or is that line reserved for Corbyn too?
I know two UKIP voters. One said she was going to vote UKIP because although she normally supported Labour she had had enough of "public schoolboy twats who got where they are because of daddy's money" so she would never vote for Labour while it was led by Miliband. Der Fuhrage was her choice because he was "an ordinary man of the people".

Which gave me a chance to gently point out that of the English political party leaders, Greens through to UKIP, only one did not have a paid-for education. Ed Miliband, who went to his local comprehensive. And as for "daddy's millions", Ralph Miliband was a respected academic whose income was made from his salary and books while Nigel's sat on the board of several banks. I think that did the trick.

The other UKIP voter, a relative, is better described as a long-term right wing Tory who became an almost-UKIP voter. Voted for Clegg in the end, because he was the "only real Englishman" - Cameron being a Scots name, Miliband clearly Jewish and Farage is a name that sounds suspiciously French. Greens obviously "mad" and part of the "global warming conspiracy". Not sure how you get that kind of person to vote Labour...
I'm getting tired of calming down....
seeingclearly
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

Russia just admits the plane downed over Sinai brought down by a 'homemade bomb'.
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frightful_oik
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by frightful_oik »

RobertSnozers wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Simon Danczuk ‏@SimonDanczuk 5m5 minutes ago
Danczuk defends columns for ‘moderate’ papers as Corbynites circle http://www.totalpolitics.com/blog/45227 ... rcle.thtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … via @totalpolitics
Definitions of 'moderate' seem to be becoming ever more stretched. The Mail and the Sun - moderate?
Ah yes, the Mail, the paper that said the only palatable option in France was Marine le Pen.
Hoorah for the Blackshirts.
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Which in sleep had fallen on you-
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citizenJA
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by citizenJA »

goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA
martinson
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by martinson »

Such troublesome and worrying times for a grandad. We've just bought my 12 year old grandson a copy of Hemingway's The Old Man and the Sea, arguably my favourite book, and in the front is a quote from a John Donne poem which I'm sure you are familiar with but which is so poignant for me at the moment;

No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.
John Donne

May you all find some peace of mind.
martinson
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by martinson »

Sorry, the quote is obviously from 'For whom the bell tolls' which I re-read in the summer. The Hemingway connection is because of the book I bought today for my grandson. I don't know how to edit posts!
I'll retire gracefully!
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Hadn't seen about the departmental running cost cuts earlier.
George Osborne has reached provisional agreement with a series of cabinet ministers, including Iain Duncan Smith, that will see a cumulative cut in day-to-day government spending by an average of 24% by 2019-20.

The cuts, which will be formally announced in the autumn statement on 25 November, are lower than the 40% reduction in spending that had been demanded by the chancellor in the summer. In his opening negotiation with cabinet ministers in July, Osborne had asked cabinet ministers to model two scenarios of cuts in their day-to-day spending of 25% and 40%.
So he came up with lower cuts than his opening negotiation?

Send him in to sort out Angie Merkel.
seeingclearly
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

So conflicted in my mind by everything around me. For me the news is the outside world, I haven't made it out doors in two months. In a way tonights storm at least confirms the outer world in a way the sound of traffic doesnt.

I read in sorrow tonight of the death of Nathalie Jardin, in charge of house lighting at the Bataclan. Many of my friends over the years have worked in this field,it is the job the son of a close friend does, that people who have shared my home do, in huge venues to small bars, and it was from one such, an American woman, that I read about the loss of this vivacious young woman.

Then I read a confusing BBC story that says that the hero of the Stadium was in fact no hero and not there, or not where it was said he had been, he had been somewhere else being ordinary. This reminded me about the intransigence of the news hungry media.

And there is the story of the man who pulled two injured women to safety, even though he was scared, his story hasn't really had that much coverage, but I'm glad there are people like that, the ones who just get on with it despite the fear. Such people are out there in every place where terror rules.

So I was also very saddened to learn that there are claims that among other things the French retaliatory strikes hit stadia, museums, clinics, hospitals. The plurals are mine because it was not clear from what I read how many of these there were but that the bombing had been substantial. It's hard to know what is true and what isn't. There is no casualty list. No civilian list, no Isis list. But there must be casualties. Paris tells us that.

There will be a lot that undoes much of the news of the last few days, that is how the media and the interests behind much of it work, it is the sensational first and then an endless debriefing, but you can't alter the human losses, whether you identify with them or whether they are quietly hidden behind a torrent of words and acres of column inches.

I'm posting this, in that spirit of not knowing. There is a video at the end of the article. Make of it whatever you will.

Jeremy Corbyns response to the Paris attacks shows us what we have been missing at number 10.

http://www.thecanary.co/2015/11/16/jere ... number-10/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by seeingclearly on Tue 17 Nov, 2015 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by HindleA »

Missed this,sorry if mentioned before:-

http://dpac.uk.net/2015/11/its-ok-if-yo ... xperiment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IT’S OK IF YOU CALL IT RESEARCH: IS THE DWP CARRYING OUT AN UNETHICAL SOCIAL EXPERIMENT ON PEOPLE CLAIMING TAX CREDITS?
seeingclearly
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

HindleA wrote:Missed this,sorry if mentioned before:-

http://dpac.uk.net/2015/11/its-ok-if-yo ... xperiment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IT’S OK IF YOU CALL IT RESEARCH: IS THE DWP CARRYING OUT AN UNETHICAL SOCIAL EXPERIMENT ON PEOPLE CLAIMING TAX CREDITS?
With the exception of the questions at the end of the article, from everything I have seen about universal Credit to date these are exactly the conditions they hope to impose on all Claimants once it is fully rolled out. It is the reason that I have been so appalled by them and why I oppose UC. Even on first reading the punitive nature of the conditionality seemed quite clear and there were equally clear consequences. Did they ever really need a trial? Or research. What has been bewildering is why others, particularly those in parliament could not see this as well, and neither could the public. No surprises, a study outweighs lives every time.
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by HindleA »

From my,albeit,limited knowledge of research,having to do some during my degree,it breaks all ethical boundaries,not least applied randomly regardless without consent.
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Interesting link via LibDemVoice to a free article in the latest issue of the Liberator magazine
... former Devon North MP Nick Harvey exposes how Liberal Democrat polling during the general election showed the party losing almost every seat and that its messages were unpopular, yet those in charge of the campaign refused to change their plans...http://www.libdemvoice.org/new-liberato ... 48270.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://liberatormagazine.org.uk/en/docu ... a#document" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The article has some interesting detail about the kind of polling they undertook and where the author thinks it, and its interpretation, was flawed. It also gives an indication of what kind of things he was hearing on the doorsteps in the Lib /Tory marginals. It seems the scare message about Miliband and the SNP really hit home. And he - and various commentators BTL on LibDemVoice - are saying they really should have been warning the public and voters in their key seats about the dangers of a Tory majority - rather than a Labour / SNP coalition. Plus polling revealed that twice as many Lib Dem voters / supporters wanted them to go into coalition with Labour rather than the Tories. None of this was reflected in their election campaign and strategy.

I hope things are going to be different in the next election - because we need the Lib Dems to be capable of putting up a good fight against the Tories in some of the southern seats.
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rebeccariots2
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by rebeccariots2 »

Natalie Rowe is having great fun with her latest hashtag tonight - #Whittingdale&HookerPics
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HindleA
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by HindleA »

Didn't know he played rugby,he says innocently.
seeingclearly
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

I remember posting on and reading the posts of others (well before this place, and even before DPAC, though not before disabled people had alerted us) on the infamous research by Mansel Aylward and Carol Black etc al., that found it's way onto the seats in the Lords before a key debate, at the instigation of Lord Freud, instead of the copy of the Welfare Reform Bill that should have been there. This document was swallowed whole by the gullible who read it. (Few ever read the Bill, from all accounts, it is a vast legalistic monster of legislation.) Later that year, the authors presented their work to the governments of Australia and New Zealand. It had a plausibility factor, was wrapped up in comforting terms that disguised the basic inhumanity at it's core.

How a study confers legitimacy, regardless of how spurious it is to ordinary people.

No doubt the one above will fulfil the same function.
seeingclearly
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

HindleA wrote:From my,albeit,limited knowledge of research,having to do some during my degree,it breaks all ethical boundaries,not least applied randomly regardless without consent.
So did the research it will support. Just mentioned above. Though not perhaps in the matter of the random cohort.

I have a recollection of something similar, it's a bit vague, perhaps to do with CBT and WRAG.
seeingclearly
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

rebeccariots2 wrote:Interesting link via LibDemVoice to a free article in the latest issue of the Liberator magazine
... former Devon North MP Nick Harvey exposes how Liberal Democrat polling during the general election showed the party losing almost every seat and that its messages were unpopular, yet those in charge of the campaign refused to change their plans...http://www.libdemvoice.org/new-liberato ... 48270.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://liberatormagazine.org.uk/en/docu ... a#document" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The article has some interesting detail about the kind of polling they undertook and where the author thinks it, and its interpretation, was flawed. It also gives an indication of what kind of things he was hearing on the doorsteps in the Lib /Tory marginals. It seems the scare message about Miliband and the SNP really hit home. And he - and various commentators BTL on LibDemVoice - are saying they really should have been warning the public and voters in their key seats about the dangers of a Tory majority - rather than a Labour / SNP coalition. Plus polling revealed that twice as many Lib Dem voters / supporters wanted them to go into coalition with Labour rather than the Tories. None of this was reflected in their election campaign and strategy.

I hope things are going to be different in the next election - because we need the Lib Dems to be capable of putting up a good fight against the Tories in some of the southern seats.
They were a bit compromised by their position, if they had not lost all those seats would we still have
a coalition? probably not, because the tory majority would be more secure, but they weren't canvassing as LibDems, not from a voter perspective, hoist by their own petard and other useful cliches come to mind, or hanged if they did or they didn't. Who would have believed them?
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by HindleA »

Approaches towards scrutiny of those that misrule us and targetted groups is arse about face.
seeingclearly
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

A report from 2010, posted in 2011, that presages all the DWP madness, it reminds me of something, but if I quote it Godwin wil be invoked.

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2011/0 ... circulate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by HindleA »

To be honest,I have no experience of attending a WCA,nor a PCA,I believe it was called."Parked"-is a heinous expression that insults us all,given context,further no Christian,to my mind,would propagandise the non contribution line.Which of course is not just factually incorrect,by his own definition also ignores a variety of other ways,not least,employer.
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by LadyCentauria »

HindleA wrote:Missed this,sorry if mentioned before:-

http://dpac.uk.net/2015/11/its-ok-if-yo ... xperiment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IT’S OK IF YOU CALL IT RESEARCH: IS THE DWP CARRYING OUT AN UNETHICAL SOCIAL EXPERIMENT ON PEOPLE CLAIMING TAX CREDITS?
Simply awful :(
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by LadyCentauria »

rebeccariots2 wrote:Interesting link via LibDemVoice to a free article in the latest issue of the Liberator magazine
... former Devon North MP Nick Harvey exposes how Liberal Democrat polling during the general election showed the party losing almost every seat and that its messages were unpopular, yet those in charge of the campaign refused to change their plans...http://www.libdemvoice.org/new-liberato ... 48270.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://liberatormagazine.org.uk/en/docu ... a#document" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The article has some interesting detail about the kind of polling they undertook and where the author thinks it, and its interpretation, was flawed. It also gives an indication of what kind of things he was hearing on the doorsteps in the Lib /Tory marginals. It seems the scare message about Miliband and the SNP really hit home. And he - and various commentators BTL on LibDemVoice - are saying they really should have been warning the public and voters in their key seats about the dangers of a Tory majority - rather than a Labour / SNP coalition. Plus polling revealed that twice as many Lib Dem voters / supporters wanted them to go into coalition with Labour rather than the Tories. None of this was reflected in their election campaign and strategy.

I hope things are going to be different in the next election - because we need the Lib Dems to be capable of putting up a good fight against the Tories in some of the southern seats.
I wonder would they be capable of winning back the seats they lost at the GE on their own terms (or., the way they won them in the first place) - and would they do better (or worse) should they say they'd be willing to go into a coalition with Labour? That false message about 'Labour under the thumb of the SNP' really did cut through, sadly.
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seeingclearly
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Re: Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by seeingclearly »

HindleA wrote:To be honest,I have no experience of attending a WCA,nor a PCA,I believe it was called."Parked"-is a heinous expression that insults us all,given context,further no Christian,to my mind,would propagandise the non contribution line.Which of course is not just factually incorrect,by his own definition also ignores a variety of other ways,not least,employer.
TBH myself, though I have good awareness of the NHS, my mum and I being very early beneficiaries, and having had the orange juice I preferred neat on a teaspoon from the bottle, and having memories of various peoples 'isn't it marvellous' from my earliest day plus having a grandfather who was involved in the initial plans for the Tredegar hospital, something I only learned about from my longlost dad in the 90s, along with what a curfuffle it was when he himself was born not long after the great war when doctors were rare and had to be sent for from very long distances, anyway to the point, I have had little awareness of the origins of other social provision like welfare/benefits etc., and was surprised when I recently found how far back they go, and what different things were explored, and really the background to why they were deemed neccessary. I had thought them a 20th century invention. So hadnt understood the moral and philosophical basis for support for poor unemployed and disabled. But there it was, and nary a word is mentioned these days! Not surprised, yet again. These things have not been passed down as well as workers rights and getting the vote, but they are there. I found them, oddly enough, in the context of my grandfathers history which was not in disability per se, but in miners compensation, many wound up workless and disabled through coalface accidents.


The benefits we are losing as a right, via things like WCA and its implacable denial of much disability, have a moral basis that was fought for and won, examined and argued about then developed and refined over a long period, though workhouse or nothing existed, so did this strand of humanist social thinking that eventually became part of our welfare state, in this respect it is part of our British values. All being shredded in front of our eyes. By people who will bray in the house but be oh so civilised in committee. Oh for more Glendas to ask the awkward questions.
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