Tuesday 17th November 2015

Post by **refitman** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 7:11 am

Morning all.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 7:49 am

Methinks Hilary should have listened to his dad.

[youtube]HfXmpJRZPYI[/youtube]

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 8:06 am

Further to the news I posted yesterday regarding the study linking DWP assessments to suicides, a few more news outlets have picked it up.

: ScreenShot01024.jpg (66.42 KiB) Viewed 9840 times

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/disa ... nmjZgYj6Gd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot01025.jpg (74.33 KiB) Viewed 9840 times

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 37136.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 8:13 am

Hopefully someone will suggest a national two minute silence for those who died during IDS' regime.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 8:15 am

Maybe a Labour MP will, if they can spare the time from Corbyn bashing.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 8:25 am

Caroline Lucas said in the House 27 Feb 2014 - "If a link could be proven, there would be a case for corporate manslaughter"

Column 460 http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 7-0002.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

: ScreenShot01028.jpg (150.3 KiB) Viewed 9827 times

Don't know how this could work against IDS though, given that one of the first things he did was to remove his obligation of a 'duty of care'. Which also puzzles me, how could he without an act of Parliament ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 8:37 am

There's already existing research by academics showing how mental and physical health deteriorates and suicide increases under economic recessions.

To load even more stress on people deliberately, for political reasons, is nothing short of a form of violence.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 8:45 am

Morning, all.

The G has reported this study too - no comments allowed so far. I doubt many here will be surprised by this; but it's a good thing to have a proper research paper with reasonable conclusions in the face of the blanket denials from IDS/DWP.
The results of those 60 "Peer reviews following the death of a customer while claiming benefits" have still not been released; it has all gone a bit quiet on that front. Not that we could expect anything other than the usual denial of responsibility.

Mike Sivier has a piece on a man in Cornwall who took an axe to his local jobcentre - he didn't do anything with it, just stood there holding it whilst "glaring" at the jobcentre. He had been found fit for work after a Work Capability Assessment.
He has heart disease, and his GP recommended he did not go back to work; he had previously been told by JCP that he must apply for JSA onlne which he couldn't do as he has no computer and doesn't know how to use one.
Seven weeks without any income, he got a 6-week prison sentence suspended for 12 months, £85 prosecution costs, £80 victim surcharge, and £180 criminal courts charge. A total of £345 when he has no income whatsoever.

No wonder people are suffering and no wonder some of them are trying to kill themselves....and succeeding.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 8:49 am

Sorry, am feeling a little prickly this morning.

Really close to resigning my party membership. Can't bear to watch the 'moderates' closing in, and helping the media while they are at it.

If holding notions of caution in shoot to kill, or questioning instigating violence in response to threat or attack is really so abhorrent to most of the PLP - I'm not sure this is the party for me to be a member of.
My views on military and policing has changed in the last few years so to be fair to Labour it may be me that is in the wrong place now.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 8:56 am

There's been at least three coroners reports lately which have directly blamed/attributed deaths to the DWP.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 9:05 am

yahyah wrote:Sorry, am feeling a little prickly this morning.

Really close to resigning my party membership. Can't bear to watch the 'moderates' closing in, and helping the media while they are at it.

If holding notions of caution in shoot to kill, or questioning instigating violence in response to threat or attack is really so abhorrent to most of the PLP - I'm not sure this is the party for me to be a member of.
My views on military and policing has changed in the last few years so to be fair to Labour it may be me that is in the wrong place now.

Professional sh1t stirrer Kuenssberg can share some blame there, although it doesn't help that the likes of John Mann (allegedly) vent feelings to her best kept to themselves.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 9:10 am

An alarming article in the HuffPost by Chris Hobbs, a former police officer.

Following cutbacks, UK police numbers are now just over half that of their French counterparts. UK armed police numbers have been cut, yes cut, to just over 6,000; all 278,000 French police officers are armed. There have been no denials from the Home Office that their ultimate goal is just 80,000 police officers in England and Wales-a mere third the size of their French counterparts. Unbelievable and criminally stupid but doubtless welcomed by those with vested interests in private security companies.

In the aftermath of Paris, I watched with incredulity as Prime Minister David Cameron made the following statement; "We will do all we can to supply our police and intelligence agencies with the resources and the capabilities they need." Such was my level of incredulity that I had to replay this totally disingenuous soundbite several times.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/chris-h ... 75522.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 9:10 am

It shows just what a parlous state the BBC is in that she got the political editorship job.

So many other good BBC people, many women, like Bridget Kendall and others whose names I can't recall who do reporting and presenting on Radio 4's The World Tonight and they give the job to Kuenssberg. She's so obvious in her approach, she almost sniggers as she tries to get a headline comment from whoever she is interviewing.
That's happening so much with the BBC now, it's about using their programmes to generate more headlines for further programmes.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 9:11 am

TobyLatimer wrote:
Don't know how this could work against IDS though, given that one of the first things he did was to remove his obligation of a 'duty of care'. Which also puzzles me, how could he without an act of Parliament ?

DWP, in its' various incarnations over the years, has never had a "duty of care" - all it has ever been required to do is pay DUE benefits in the correct amounts on time.

If, for example, a decision-maker decides that a claimant is not entitled to ESA, there is no due benefit.
That decision, they will say, is based on "all available evidence", and it's not easy for a claimant to prove otherwise unless they have access to all the decision-makers' documents and know what to do with them; and even then DWP can wriggle out of any criticism by claiming staff error or whatever. Claimants do not know that these documents exist in the majority of cases.
If that claimant cannot satisfy the conditions for claiming JSA, there is no due benefit.

As for paying due benefits on time, there is no real way of making sure this happens. Delays are rife within the system even when they're not built in to the claims process (eg. 7 "waiting days" for JSA/UC, 6 months of evidence of disability for PIP).
All DWP has to do is pretend they don't have the right paperwork from the claimant, or say they are waiting for another agency or individual to supply information, and the wait for the claim to be processed and paid can be months.

Years ago, there were targets for claims processing. Not any more. The targets are all aimed at preventing people from claiming at all.
Until 2014, there were no targets for decision-makers. The idea was that they assessed the claim/evidence impartially, using social security legislation to justify their eventual decision.
The W&P Select Committee has heard evidence from decision-makers who now have targets to "fail" 80% of all Mandatory Consideration of Review and sanctions cases; so even if the original decision is wrong, a claimant has little chance of getting it overturned at MCR stage and will have to go on to lodge an appeal.
With no help from DWP, which used to lodge the appeals and collate/supply all the relevant documentation - now the claimants have to do this themselves; and most have little idea what documents they should ask for, nor the cash to supply all the relevant parties with copies plus quot the correct legislation to support their appeal.

There is no duty of care - claimants have a choice. They don't have to claim, do they? They could work instead.....

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 9:13 am

See you all later.

We've got some preparation to do outside as we'll be getting high winds this evening.
Don't want my plant pots and biennial seedlings to be sailing through the air.
The Met Office report shows lower wind speeds than Accuweather, hope they are correct.

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 9:22 am

Twitter user Sarah Brand summed up the essence of the high quality political analysis of flagship Radio 4 programme:

Webb:did u hear that Jeremy Corbyn tho?
Kuenessberg: omigod the labour crew said they'd literally be sick tho
Webb: seriously
#r4today

nickyinnorfolk · Post by **nickyinnorfolk** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 9:38 am

yahyah wrote:It shows just what a parlous state the BBC is in that she got the political editorship job.

So many other good BBC people, many women, like Bridget Kendall and others whose names I can't recall who do reporting and presenting on Radio 4's The World Tonight and they give the job to Kuenssberg. She's so obvious in her approach, she almost sniggers as she tries to get a headline comment from whoever she is interviewing.
That's happening so much with the BBC now, it's about using their programmes to generate more headlines for further programmes.

There's two main reasons why a thoroughly nasty piece of work like Kuenssberg got the job.

First is the nature of the 24 hour news cycle and the idea of chasing ratings. Viewers have to be bombarded with simplistic and sensationalist reporting to keep them hooked. Thoughtful analysis is ignored in the stampede. Lord Reith would be appalled.

Second is she was appointed by the BBC's director of news and current affairs, James Harding - who was at school with George Osborne and is still very matey with him. No prizes for guessing where Harding is on the political spectrum. That whirring sound is Reith spinning in his grave.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 9:47 am

Good morfternoon.

Seven more departments agree spending cuts worth 21% with the Treasury

Another seven government departments, including Iain Duncan Smith’s Work and Pensions Department, have reached an agreement with the Treasury about spending cuts over the next four years. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)

And Alastair Campbell has contributed this (same source) -

Alastair Campbell
✔
@campbellclaret

As May showed you cannot win a general election if behind on economy and leadership. Add security as a negative and it is rout time
9:23 AM - 17 Nov 2015

Edit

Alastair - not Alistair. (I knew that was wrong at the time and meant to go back and change it. Forgot.)

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 9:48 am

Morning all.

I'm getting sick of politics and the"let's get him!" approach to Corbyn...and I'm not getting my thesis finished (after having been at it for 7 years) so I'm taking a bit of a break from here and elsewhere.

Incidentally, I assume that the people who are baying for blood over what Stop The War tweeted and deleted...are precisely the same as who want full free speech where everyone's allowed to say what they think with no censorship?

Of course they are...massive hypocrites.

I notice that there are a fair number of people (including Niall Ferguson who idiotically has compared the current situation to the fall of the Western Empire in the 5th century) who are saying that it's all down to policy failures over the past few decades.

How is that different to Stop the War saying that it's all due to foreign policy and meddling in the Middle East?

Probably back for the Autumn Statement and might look in during evenings. Bye for now.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 10:34 am

Bye for now Roger

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 11:05 am

It amazes me that the people who are most vociferous about migrants fleeing a war zone and coming to Europe are now the most vociferous about bombing the war zone and creating more migrants

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 11:10 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
yahyah wrote:Sorry, am feeling a little prickly this morning.

Really close to resigning my party membership. Can't bear to watch the 'moderates' closing in, and helping the media while they are at it.

If holding notions of caution in shoot to kill, or questioning instigating violence in response to threat or attack is really so abhorrent to most of the PLP - I'm not sure this is the party for me to be a member of.
My views on military and policing has changed in the last few years so to be fair to Labour it may be me that is in the wrong place now.
I agree. I'm getting sick of it now. It's increasingly clear that the UK political establishment is only prepared to allow a narrow range of opinion and a cynical leave-your-principles-at-the-door attitude to electability. Corbyn was elected on the basis of thousands of people experiencing a surge of hope that something different was possible. But that is not to be permitted and will be crushed.

I'm going to remain a member while Corbyn is leader. If he's ousted they can all get lost. If the 'moderates' (I hate that term - they're not moderate about anything) get any worse I will consider writing to my CLP to register my displeasure, but not sure what else can be done. The problem is that the PLP is so far from the membership. I wish they would look at the LibDems and see what happened there when the right wing staged a takeover of the parliamentary party.

Hugo has already been squished on the Liveblog I see, but not without posting more morale-sapping BS.

Me too. My dad always used to say Labour had a built in self destruct button.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 11:24 am

The anti-Corbyn sentiments (or at least as presented by the press) are getting to frenzy level. I don't know that things can continue as they are.

His reservations about "shoot to kill" make sense to me in so far as I think he's opposed to just shooting anyone who comes across the radar as appearing a bit "dodgy". I didn't think he made that quite clear in his interview. He appeared to be uncommitted to defensive action rather than simply being against offensive action. There is a big difference between the two, and I feel that he missed the opportunity to clearly make the distinction. He came across as a woolly "peacenik" rather than the level-headed, rational politician that I'm sure he is. However . . . .

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 11:39 am

Now is not the time to start flouncing out of the LP. The fact is, most of those who mouth off to the MSM are cowardly inadequates who will never actually *do* anything.

The rest of the party has to hold them to account, and Corbyn needs to learn how to dodge obvious traps like yesterday's (if he had actually said "I'm not happy with a shoot to kill *policy*", then only a few blowhards would have had an issue with it)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 11:43 am

ohsocynical wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
yahyah wrote:Sorry, am feeling a little prickly this morning.

Really close to resigning my party membership. Can't bear to watch the 'moderates' closing in, and helping the media while they are at it.

I agree. I'm getting sick of it now. It's increasingly clear that the UK political establishment is only prepared to allow a narrow range of opinion and a cynical leave-your-principles-at-the-door attitude to electability. Corbyn was elected on the basis of thousands of people experiencing a surge of hope that something different was possible. But that is not to be permitted and will be crushed.

I'm going to remain a member while Corbyn is leader. If he's ousted they can all get lost. If the 'moderates' (I hate that term - they're not moderate about anything) get any worse I will consider writing to my CLP to register my displeasure, but not sure what else can be done. The problem is that the PLP is so far from the membership. I wish they would look at the LibDems and see what happened there when the right wing staged a takeover of the parliamentary party.

Hugo has already been squished on the Liveblog I see, but not without posting more morale-sapping BS.
Me too. My dad always used to say Labour had a built in self destruct button.

It's getting very concerning - maybe even distressing - isn't it? It's getting difficult to see how we go on from here if things continue in this vein. I know that, in my previous post, I opined that Jeremy Corbyn should have been clearer but, other than satisfying me (and probably others), I doubt that it would stop the antis.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 11:45 am

There were tweets (hate that word) from certain 'correspondents' last night that at the PLP mp's were shouting at Corbyn & banging the tables with fists. Diane Abbott refused to talk to anyone and sat writing Christmas cards. The Tories must be pissing themselves.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 11:46 am

Good-morning.

We must vote Tory government out if we don't want them in government.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 11:52 am

Morning - just.

It does feel like a low spot has been reached in many senses. Yahyah's despair over the behaviour of some in the PLP resonated with me too. Yesterday I spent about 45 minutes trying to soothe an upset member who came out canvassing with me a lot during the last election. She is disgusted with the way some MPs are behaving and also thinking of resigning her membership. She joined before Corbyn was elected leader - put her faith in me and the local candidate - and was really pleased when Corbyn was elected although it wasn't something she could have predicted in advance of her joining.

I am in the same place as Robert Snozers. I will stay a member but if Corbyn is ousted - by either an organised effort to challenge his leadership via whatever procedural methods there are - or, as it seems is the intention, by relentless back stabbing and dissing of him both off and on the record so that he is totally undermined - I too will resign.

Thank you whoever it was last night mentioned Jean Charles de Menenes. I remember sitting with others in my East London office as that awful event unfolded. I naively reassured several other people that the police must have had good reason to shoot him like that rather than apprehend and arrest him. At the time the media were reporting that he had 'wires' protruding from his top half. How right they were to be suspicious and worried. The poor man was summarily executed on the basis of dreadful 'intelligence'. He must have been terrified when he was running for his life not understanding what on earth was going on. How stupid was I to have had such trust - then - in the police knowing what they were doing.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 11:56 am

libdemvoice
‏@libdemvoice
++Breaking: Chris Rennard's statement as he stands down from the Federal Executive http://ldv.org.uk/48284" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 12:08 pm

Leaders come and go.
The Labour party and the NHS are mostly good.
I'll not give up on either one.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 12:12 pm

I will go further, people should not leave the party even if JC is ousted. They should remain to take revenge (where merited) and ensure such a thing doesn't happen again.

Its partly a natural process, too. The PLP started to move to the left at the last GE, this trend will continue in 2020 and 2025. Because it is what most of the members want.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 12:26 pm

Isabel Hardman ‏@IsabelHardman 2m2 minutes ago
Labour in a spot of bother in Oldham West by-election, I hear http://bit.ly/1kBWb34" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **refitman** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 12:42 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Isabel Hardman ‏@IsabelHardman 2m2 minutes ago
Labour in a spot of bother in Oldham West by-election, I hear http://bit.ly/1kBWb34" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A number of Labourites are very worried...
I understand that those involved...
They believe that...

I would prefer if this wasn't just speculation and unnamed sources.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 12:46 pm

Any money going on UKIP at the bookies, then?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 12:48 pm

refitman wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Isabel Hardman ‏@IsabelHardman 2m2 minutes ago
Labour in a spot of bother in Oldham West by-election, I hear http://bit.ly/1kBWb34" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A number of Labourites are very worried...
I understand that those involved...
They believe that...
I would prefer if this wasn't just speculation and unnamed sources.

So would I refit, so would I.

All par for this particular course. That Ukip leaflet made up to look like a Labour one shows how far they are prepared to go. The latest tweets I'm seeing say that there's just been a considerable increase in people putting money on Ukip to win this one.

I'm guessing there are some in Labour who wouldn't mind if this seat was lost if it meant they could hammer more nails in Corbyn - because of course it will be all his fault.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 12:52 pm

Sorry if we've already done this.

Er - I'll continue (pressed the wrong button) -

On Monday night, David Cameron gave a speech at the lord mayor’s banquet about security, in which he likened the battle against Islamic extremism to Winston Churchill’s second world war fight against Adolf Hitler. (Guardian)

I fail to see any similarities whatsoever. But he gets away with spouting any old rubbish with total impunity. I wish the Labour Party could at least keep up with opposing the Conservatives at the same time as conducting their mission to self-destruct. Multi-tasking isn't their strong suit, it would appear.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... borne-gchq

Edited to add the body of the post!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 12:54 pm

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 14m14 minutes ago
.@HuffPostUK EXCLUSIVE: Jeremy Corbyn WILL authorise lethal force in Paris style terror incidents, if he becomes PM: http://huff.to/1Mz6uvo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 12:55 pm

Remember Mr Riots' attempts at squirrel proofing the bird feeders?

At time of writing we have storm Barney blasting off the coast across the fields and our garden. Feeders are near horizontal in some gusts. We have 7 squirrels on the ground, 2 halfway up the tree waiting their turn, and 2 vertically pressed up against the peanut feeders determined to cling on despite the roller coaster motion.

#costingusafortune

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 12:59 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I will go further, people should not leave the party even if JC is ousted. They should remain to take revenge (where merited) and ensure such a thing doesn't happen again.

Its partly a natural process, too. The PLP started to move to the left at the last GE, this trend will continue in 2020 and 2025. Because it is what most of the members want.

In the meantime they're not doing the jobs they were elected, by us, to do, which is be an effective opposition.
I really am sick to the back teeth at their behaviour with all the injustice and suffering going on around them.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 1:00 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Remember Mr Riots' attempts at squirrel proofing the bird feeders?

At time of writing we have storm Barney blasting off the coast across the fields and our garden. Feeders are near horizontal in some gusts. We have 7 squirrels on the ground, 2 halfway up the tree waiting their turn, and 2 vertically pressed up against the peanut feeders determined to cling on despite the roller coaster motion.

#costingusafortune

You have to admire the little critters.

Wind's not too ferocious here yet, luckily we get shelter from the coast/west via a steep hill.

Post by **refitman** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 1:04 pm

yahyah wrote:Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 14m14 minutes ago
.@HuffPostUK EXCLUSIVE: Jeremy Corbyn WILL authorise lethal force in Paris style terror incidents, if he becomes PM: http://huff.to/1Mz6uvo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The PM doesn't have any input into live police operations (i.e. hostage situations) and what happened in Paris would be a response to a realtime threat, also under control of the police.

This is all such a load of bollocks.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 1:08 pm

Am holding back on resignation. Useful posts this morning.
RR & Rob's particularly. Thanks.

If I had done it, it wouldn't have been a flounce.
That suggests some energy behind the action.
It would have been something much less dramatic, and sadder, than that.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 1:13 pm

Seriously though yahyah, this is bigger than one person. The support for Corbyn was that distinctly rare event in modern societies, a genuine grass roots uprising (which nobody in the "bubble" predicted) Even if he fell under the proverbial bus tomorrow, that would still be there.

The malcontents in the PLP imagine they can simply dispatch Jez and things will go back to how they were. They have no idea how wrong they are.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 1:23 pm

Jeremy Corbyn asks -

And what is being done to stop Isis’s funding? And what is being done to stop them selling oil (Politics Live, Guardian)

Questions I have often asked myself (and possibly here, too). In particular, who is buying their oil?

Edited to add -

It can't be that difficult to find out - always assuming that we don't know already.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm

refitman wrote:
yahyah wrote:Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 14m14 minutes ago
.@HuffPostUK EXCLUSIVE: Jeremy Corbyn WILL authorise lethal force in Paris style terror incidents, if he becomes PM: http://huff.to/1Mz6uvo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The PM doesn't have any input into live police operations (i.e. hostage situations) and what happened in Paris would be a response to a realtime threat, also under control of the police.

This is all such a load of bollocks.

Absolutely, it's bollocks.

Though I've been critical about Corbyn's response to questions (basically that he responded to them at all, when he didn't need to, rather than that he says anything objectionable in itself) he didn't think you have to take Bataclan terrorists alive, like John Mann said.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 1:27 pm

@ Porfavor We all are, allegedly

[youtube]fYDArl--Qp0[/youtube]

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 1:28 pm

PorFavor wrote:The anti-Corbyn sentiments (or at least as presented by the press) are getting to frenzy level. I don't know that things can continue as they are.

His reservations about "shoot to kill" make sense to me in so far as I think he's opposed to just shooting anyone who comes across the radar as appearing a bit "dodgy". I didn't think he made that quite clear in his interview.

Yeah. "Shoot to kill" is a loaded phrase. It can mean the sort of stuff the British Army did at times in Northern Ireland, with which Republicans made hay. That's obviously a bad idea.

But of course you kill people who are immediate lethal threats.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 1:28 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Now is not the time to start flouncing out of the LP. The fact is, most of those who mouth off to the MSM are cowardly inadequates who will never actually *do* anything.

The rest of the party has to hold them to account, and Corbyn needs to learn how to dodge obvious traps like yesterday's (if he had actually said "I'm not happy with a shoot to kill *policy*", then only a few blowhards would have had an issue with it)

(My bold)
Even (drat I've forgotten his name) the bloke interviewing MPs in the Lobby for DP (near the end of today's episode) finished up his report on Lab MPs having a go at Corbyn at yesterday's PLP meeting by saying, "Of course it's only a small minority of MPs." Given it's a 'small minority' why give them so much air? Why not report on the meeting and finish with, "a small minority of MPs were clearly unhappy with ..."? And, do they (BBC or anyone) report on the Tory PLP meetings? I don't recall ever hearing about that...

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 1:30 pm

Which is why he should have inserted the word "policy". Hopefully he is learning that little things like that can make a big difference.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 1:30 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Isabel Hardman ‏@IsabelHardman 2m2 minutes ago
Labour in a spot of bother in Oldham West by-election, I hear http://bit.ly/1kBWb34" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If people didn't vote for Ed Miliband because he was perceived as London-centric, then Jeremy Corbyn could potentially have the same problem.

If people didn't vote for Ed Miliband because they found him too intellectual, Corbyn could equally be too highbrow for them.

If people didn't vote for Ed Miliband because they thought he was too pro-immigration and ethnic minorities, then it is possible they will be even less likely to vote for Jeremy Corbyn.

I thought Andy Burnham had the potential to win back/retain Ukip-inclined traditional Labour voters, because he has a regional accent and genuinely likes football. Even so, it was a long shot. The worry I have with Jeremy Corbyn, is that he is on the left of Labour and as such will only be able to add votes from the left. There were nearly 4 Ukip votes for every Green vote at the last election. There isn't much scope on the left for growing support. This is not to say that I think Labour should move to the right. The policies under Ed were about right (and were often popular in polls) and Jeremy Corbyn hasn't diverted hugely from that course. It's about voter prejudice, about the insidious drip drip drip of the Daily Mail, about identity politics and the fragmentation of the working class as a movement. Under Corbyn, Labour seems to be more radical than it really is. In order to win, however, I feel that Labour needs to seem less radical than it actually is. Appearance to attract the Ukip voters, substance to attract the left-wing voters. It's how the SNP has pulled traditional Scottish Labour voters to the right. They talk a good left-wing progressive talk on the surface to win working class left-wing votes, but walk a more conservative right-wing walk to hold on to the Tartan Tories.

Obviously gossip is merely gossip, Ukip might flop in Oldham, but I do think the Ukip threat needs to be taken seriously and it needs to accepted that the media onslaught against Corbyn, unprofessional and biased as it may be, mostly works with those already predisposed to dislike him. Corbyn may be the overwhelming choice of party members, but he wasn't the obvious or popular choice among Labour voters in general and as such leaves Labour still suffering many of the problems it has recently experienced with Ed Miliband, which ultimately resulted in a shock defeat.