Wednesday 18th November 2015

Post by **refitman** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 7:14 am

Morning all.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 7:50 am

Good morning, Refitman, and all.

The wind has calmed down a bit here - after a wild night! Hope all of you are OK and your wheelie bins secure.....

Many thanks for the links/posts on DWP "research" last night. It's horrifying that this is going on with no scrutiny - lest we forget, there have been various experiments imposed on benefit claimants by IDS before this.
Remember the sham psychometric tests, the nasty little pictures of courts and bailiffs sent to people made to do these tests as a reminder of what happens to people who get behind on their bills? Disgraceful.
Then there's the imposition of "treatment" on people with mental illness - a trial has been under way for some time, requiring claimants to accept online CBT and/or other "help" as a condition for claiming benefit.

This is "Nudge" theory in practice - but warped into scare tactics. DWP is pretending that all this "support" is about helping people to work and changing the behaviour of those it considers a drain on the public purse.
IDS has made much of "behavioural change" in his policy speeches, and that's what this is all about. He wants to "nudge" people out of what he calls dependency, and convince everyone else that he is helping them.

This is social engineering on a massive scale - and it ignores the real needs of people who are poor, sick, disabled, or in any way disadvantaged or vulnerable, and is intended to make them behave in a way that the public is propagandised to regard as correct.
The idea that sickness or unemployment is a behavioural failure is not new; this is the basis of the twisted thinking behind the WCA. Illness is a state of "learned behaviour" and that behaviour can be challenged and altered, or so the theory goes.....

And now all this "thinking" is being applied to working people too. If your work is not paid enough, if your hours of work aren't long enough, and even if you work full time but can't make ends meet, then you must find more work, better work, work that DWP approves of.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - this is fascism. Pure and simple. And evil.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:15 am

We would have wall to wall coverage in the media if 600 people had simultaneously committed suicide suddenly in a cult type hysteria ( anyone remember the Jonestown mass suicide which happened on this very day 1978 ? http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... -jonestown" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

Six hundred deaths related to, or possibly linked to policy making do not count. As it is the DWP & Herr Schmidt are immune from such scrutiny. Not even a murmur on any main bulletin I have seen. Although Debbie Abrahams tweeted that she got a two second vox pop on BBC North West Tonight in a small report yesterday. (6mins 45secs into the prog) http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... t-17112015" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:25 am

Morning all.

Yet more shooting and explosions.

I worry how all this focus on so called ISIS and terrorism will pervade, and be used in, the upcoming by-election and the elections next year.

I'm going to be canvassing here at the weekend about tax credit cuts. I wonder if anyone will mention such things to us. I did have some pretty vitriolic stuff shouted at me before the May election.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:29 am

Good morfternoon.

I hope everyone here got through last night's weather safely. I've been reading about problems in parts of the UK (Wales being one of the particular problem areas - although I see below that rebeccariots2 is with us so I assume she's got electricity).

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:31 am

Tax credit cut will trigger rise in food banks use

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... -in-demand" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:33 am

Universal Credit ;

Built-in delay of at least 42 days before claimants receive payments leaves people struggling to pay bills and buy food,

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... vice-study" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:33 am

Beth Rigby ‏@BethRigby 51m51 minutes ago
#BBC cuts: £35m sports budget; £15m from TV; £50m from other services -- red button, cuts to news channel/website; £50m 'efficiency savings'

Beth Rigby ‏@BethRigby 50m50 minutes ago
Cutting red button saves millions. But bad news 4 viewers who use it for live sports matches & BBC prom concerts http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/medi ... 617053.ece" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Beth Rigby ‏@BethRigby 38m38 minutes ago
Relax #C4, looks like Land Registry first up in Osborne's #greatbritishselloff via @DeidreHipwell #CSR15 > http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/ ... 616762.ece" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:37 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

I hope everyone here got through last night's weather safely. I've been reading about problems in parts of the UK (Wales being one of the particular problem areas - although I see below that rebeccariots2 is with us so I assume she's got electricity).

Hah. I'm on treddle power PF. Very handy in these parts.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:48 am

The Guardian view on Labour and terrorism: Jeremy Corbyn deserves a hearing, but refuses to help Britain listen
Editorial (Guardian)

A Guardian editorial I can agree with.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ain-listen

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:49 am

Morning.

OhSo - something to post on your American family Facebook pages:

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:50 am

Seems like Debbie agrees with me

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TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:55 am

Denied benefits for spending too much time on the internet.

http://samedifference1.com/2015/10/20/c ... -facebook/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:58 am

Not that the bastards need an excuse.

On a related note, I spotted this disturbing comment on Vox Political earlier

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Post by **refitman** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 9:23 am

Ken Livingston will co-chair, with Angela Eagle, a review into Trident. Apparently this is the end of days.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 9:26 am

If our government was looking at the mess we are in, the effects on people and the poverty, suicides and desths, as well as the neglect and haphazard policies and decisionmaking but happening in another country I have no doubt they would condemn it as a fascist and failing state and there would be a global outcry, but they don't see themselves as that, their egos are in the way, and our media has amazingly been able to gloss over everything and present us still as a properly functioning nation. Colleagues in the US were astounded when I first started to mention our 'reforms', the thing they really could not understand was the cruelty and intrusiveness of it all. They kept on asking the same question I used to ask, 'why would they want to do that'. I still don't understand it really, but my current reply would probably be 'they do it because they can'. I agree with Ephie, and think we are further along that road than we ever thought we could be, I notice no letting up, no signs of them relenting.

My apologies for such bleakness so early, on the bright side last nights storms have abated, hope that is happening in other parts of the country and you are seeing blue sky and the potential for sunshine. There are thankfully still pleasures that they can't take away.

I'm off to see what the news is and have to tackle the house. Theres a visit impending so later on we are going to disguise the environmental disaster we live in with the scent of good baking. I could do with someone like my best friends mum, she'd have the house cleaned three times before breakfast, and your plate washed, dried and set in front of you again before she offered you seconds, no one accepted her offer of tea, it was whisked away before it was cool enough to drink! And a demon with the bleach as we used to say.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 9:29 am

... The system, which is being being slowly rolled out across the UK and is years behind its original schedule, is also dogged by computer processing errors, poor communications with claimants, and delays in fixing simple administrative problems, says the study by a group of Citizens Advice offices.

It says that although universal credit assumes claimants are paid monthly in arrears – and therefore if they lose their job they can manage until their first benefit payment – half of low paid workers are paid weekly, meaning they must last for six weeks on a single week’s money.

More than 60% of the study’s respondents reported that they had found it “very difficult” to pay rent, utilities and food bills during the 42-day period. A third had waited even longer for their claim to be processed, with one in 10 waiting at least 63 days...

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... are_btn_tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The pub / hotel I used to garden for had everybody - everybody - on weekly wages. They wouldn't even let me invoice them on a monthly basis. It's so they can get rid instantly - or not give any hours in a week if that's what they think is needed. There is zilch security if that's your only work. The turnover of 'staff' was fast and furious. I met 5 different chefs in the relatively short time I did their gardens.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 9:34 am

seeingclearly wrote:If our government was looking at the mess we are in, the effects on people and the poverty, suicides and desths, as well as the neglect and haphazard policies and decisionmaking but happening in another country I have no doubt they would condemn it as a fascist and failing state and there would be a global outcry, but they don't see themselves as that, their egos are in the way, and our media has amazingly been able to gloss over everything and present us still as a properly functioning nation. Colleagues in the US were astounded when I first started to mention our 'reforms', the thing they really could not understand was the cruelty and intrusiveness of it all. They kept on asking the same question I used to ask, 'why would they want to do that'. I still don't understand it really, but my current reply would probably be 'they do it because they can'. I agree with Ephie, and think we are further along that road than we ever thought we could be, I notice no letting up, no signs of them relenting.

My apologies for such bleakness so early, on the bright side last nights storms have abated, hope that is happening in other parts of the country and you are seeing blue sky and the potential for sunshine. There are thankfully still pleasures that they can't take away.

I'm off to see what the news is and have to tackle the house. Theres a visit impending so later on we are going to disguise the environmental disaster we live in with the scent of good baking. I could do with someone like my best friends mum, she'd have the house cleaned three times before breakfast, and your plate washed, dried and set in front of you again before she offered you seconds, no one accepted her offer of tea, it was whisked away before it was cool enough to drink! And a demon with the bleach as we used to say.

Best of luck!

I've got the builders in. They cleared up the cat sick (the builders come very early and let themselves in so I hadn't discovered the mess or I'd have done it myself) and made me a cup of tea. Shall I send them round?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 9:52 am

I found this missive in my in-box this morning -

America must get out of the mindset of fighting politically correct wars. It will lead to our defeat, and ultimately a more dangerous world.

For the safety of the American people, we must do everything in our power to eliminate the global scourge of radical Islamic jihad -- and stop worrying about offending people.

That means stopping President Obama from bringing 45,000 Syrian refugees to our shores.

That means keeping Gitmo open.

That means giving our military a clear mission, the right resources, and not tying their hands.

I need to know if you stand with me. Will you make a donation to my campaign now?

Everywhere I go I see more and more people waking up, ready to stand up for our values. We've now accepted over 900,000 grassroots donations. Over 4 million people have joined me on Facebook. Our momentum is growing every day and I need your help now more than ever.

I'm not a politician with my finger in the wind. As your President, I will do what I believe is right and just -- even if it makes the PC crowd uncomfortable.

Please join me by donating to my campaign right now.

If we hope to pass along a safer and more prosperous world to our children and grandchildren, we're going to have to stand up and fight for our values.

We can't be afraid of being called names. We know what needs to be done. Please join me.

Sincerely,

Ben Carson

The whys and wherefores of its presence in my in-box involve my peculiar surname being shared by some Republican bod (who's probably some very distant relative) in North Carolina. I get some strange stuff. I've tried to tell them. The number of lunch engagements and church services I've failed to turn up for are numerous.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 10:02 am

PorFavor wrote: I've got the builders in. They cleared up the cat sick (the builders come very early and let themselves in so I hadn't discovered the mess or I'd have done it myself) and made me a cup of tea. Shall I send them round?

Good morning.

They sound just the ticket, they might have the muscle to overcome the suction of the Dyson I bought believing it would make life easier. Neat seeming gadget till you switch it on, three quid a month forever and no-one who's touched it wants to use it again.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 10:32 am

refitman wrote:Ken Livingston will co-chair, with Angela Eagle, a review into Trident. Apparently this is the end of days.

Morning all.

Indeed. It's pathetic.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 11:16 am

PorFavor wrote:
The Guardian view on Labour and terrorism: Jeremy Corbyn deserves a hearing, but refuses to help Britain listen
Editorial (Guardian)
A Guardian editorial I can agree with.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ain-listen

Little to disagree with there. The double standards (Cameron being allowed to get away with much bigger verbal infelicities) still grate, though.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 11:21 am

refitman wrote:Ken Livingston will co-chair, with Angela Eagle, a review into Trident. Apparently this is the end of days.

Remember when, back in the GLC days, Ken said that peace in Northern Ireland would never happen until you started talking to Adams and McGuinness; he did that, got loads of stick, but was proved soooo right in the end. This appointment is a good move by Corbyn imo, maybe there is hope for him yet. *ducks*

Edit - Well, it looked like a good appointment, until Ken's comments about Kevan Jones hit the fan!!

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 11:26 am

Starting from the position of a "fixed" defence budget is it worthwhile discussing what a reduction in the nuclear capability budget would result in increasing other parts of the defence budget, or the grey area between defence and specialist intelligence / policing areas?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 11:28 am

I was naive enough to think having a supporter and opponent of Trident co-chairing the review was to try and reach at least a degree of common ground.

But it seems that is not acceptable to certain people - their view must totally prevail at all costs

Post by **refitman** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 11:37 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I was naive enough to think having a supporter and opponent of Trident co-chairing the review was to try and reach at least a degree of common ground.

But it seems that is not acceptable to certain people - their view must totally prevail at all costs

Ah, but you see, Eagle can remain impartial and open to ideas. Whereas Ken is a communist who wants to remove our defences and allow us to be invaded.

Simple when you know the facts.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 11:37 am

Good morning all,
I saw some tweets last night slagging off Jeremy Corbyn because he stopped to have a selfie taken with some football supporters whilst walking up Wembley Way.
Damned if you do, Damned if you don't!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 11:41 am

There are doubtless "some tweets" slagging him off for breathing. Including a few from Labour MPs, no doubt

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 11:46 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:There are doubtless "some tweets" slagging him off for breathing. Including a few from Labour MPs, no doubt

Chris Leslie isn't wasting time...

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 11:58 am

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
refitman wrote:Ken Livingston will co-chair, with Angela Eagle, a review into Trident. Apparently this is the end of days.
Remember when, back in the GLC days, Ken said that peace in Northern Ireland would never happen until you started talking to Adams and McGuinness; he did that, got loads of stick, but was proved soooo right in the end. This appointment is a good move by Corbyn imo, maybe there is hope for him yet. *ducks*

Edit - Well, it looked like a good appointment, until Ken's comments about Kevan Jones hit the fan!!

Yes - the Kevan Jones comments were unbelievably stupid - not to mention insensitive. Giving offence and by-passing the requirement for the press to exercise its already over-taxed imagination. I despair.

Edited to add

It has also allowed the subject to be changed. It will no longer be about Ken Livingstone on Trident but Ken Livingstone on mental illness. I thought he was more astute (and humane) than that. Opponents of Ken Livingstone (and by extension Jeremy Corbyn) can now rightfully assume the moral high-ground. Jeremy Corbyn will no doubt be called upon to condemn etc etc . . . What a gift.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 12:13 pm

"Does he want me to go on longer so that the Chancellor can explain the answer to him?" JC just now in PMQs...

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 12:24 pm

PorFavor wrote: I've got the builders in. They cleared up the cat sick (the builders come very early and let themselves in so I hadn't discovered the mess or I'd have done it myself) and made me a cup of tea. Shall I send them round?

Please could you put me on the waiting list for your builders, PF?

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 12:25 pm

It's disgraceful, whether you are a JC supporter or not, I waver because no politician has my full support. They are writing articles on him as if he has gone already in everything but the event itself. I remember a phase when they treated Ed like this, I hope they are exchanging notes.

I'm not sure he should have been held to any fixed position on shoot to kill, his usual ideas are for normal times, but these are far from normal, to waver is to be human. He has effectively been shut up so now a mindful debate will not take place. I can see how policy could be changed rapidly by government because of this crisis, and then adopted as a new normal position, with nasty consequences. Trident another matter, if it was armed forces on the scales it would be different but apparently it is poor people. Or am I getting that wrong?

I hope everyones fences are still standing, electricity is working, and that there aren't too many trees come down. It is blowing again here after some hours of calm when I thought it had blown itself out.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 12:27 pm

Can Cameron please remind me when kalashnikovs were last used on British streets? Very prime ministerial yet again.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 12:48 pm

Well there is no question about it, Livingstone's comments are unacceptable and he should apologise. Simple as.

Once he does, however, that should be an end of it. I somehow doubt that it will be, though........

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 12:54 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Well there is no question about it, Livingstone's comments are unacceptable and he should apologise. Simple as.

Once he does, however, that should be an end of it. I somehow doubt that it will be, though........

Livingstone on WATO. Time to put it to bed.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 1:11 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Well there is no question about it, Livingstone's comments are unacceptable and he should apologise. Simple as.

Once he does, however, that should be an end of it. I somehow doubt that it will be, though........
Livingstone on WATO. Time to put it to bed.

Has Ken Livingstone apologised, then?

(Also, as a political luminary and moving in the circles that I'm assuming he does, how could Ken Livingstone be unaware of Kevan Jones' mental health history? He (KJ) made a fairly long speech on it in a Commons session on mental health.)

I'm afraid this episode has not impressed me on several levels.

Edited

"in" for "on"

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 1:15 pm

Try as they might, they couldn't get a criticism of Jeremy Corbyn out of John Mann on Daily Politics today. Mann was adamant that the party was in full agreement on their position on Syria as set out by Hilary Benn, that he had full confidence in both Corbyn and his shadow foreign secretary. He seemed pretty genuine about it too. Benn has been pretty solid this last few days and does seem to have the confidence of the whole party and as Corbyn appointed him and has put his confidence in him in the first place it does reflect very well on his judgement.

With a survation poll out suggesting the British public is still keen on some kind of co-ordinated UN plan before getting involved in the Syrian civil war, much as 2 years ago, I'm starting to feel a little more optimistic than yesterday. Regardless of a complete change of who he wants to bomb and why, Cameron will use approval for bombing Isis in Syria now as some kind of vindication for his plan to destabilise Assad and will claim he was right all along and Ed was wrong. I'm pleased Labour are sticking to Ed's policy of going through the UN. I hope the steady heads may once again prevail.

Post by **refitman** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 1:20 pm

Willow904 wrote:Try as they might, they couldn't get a criticism of Jeremy Corbyn out of John Mann on Daily Politics today. Mann was adamant that the party was in full agreement on their position on Syria as set out by Hilary Benn, that he had full confidence in both Corbyn and his shadow foreign secretary. He seemed pretty genuine about it too. Benn has been pretty solid this last few days and does seem to have the confidence of the whole party and as Corbyn appointed him and has put his confidence in him in the first place it does reflect very well on his judgement.

With a survation poll out suggesting the British public is still keen on some kind of co-ordinated UN plan before getting involved in the Syrian civil war, much as 2 years ago, I'm starting to feel a little more optimistic than yesterday. Regardless of a complete change of who he wants to bomb and why, Cameron will use approval for bombing Isis in Syria now as some kind of vindication for his plan to destabilise Assad and will claim he was right all along and Ed was wrong. I'm pleased Labour are sticking to Ed's policy of going through the UN. I hope the steady heads may once again prevail.

Is Andrew Sparrow telling porkies?

On the Daily Politics the Labour MP John Mann was asked after PMQs if he had confidence in Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Pointedly, he refused to say that he had. He said he had confidence in Hilary Benn, the shadow foreign secretary.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 1:27 pm

Livingstone said on LBC earlier when asked if he would still have made the comments had he known that Jones was a sufferer of clinical depression, he replied "Of course not"

http://www.lbc.co.uk/ken-refuses-to-say ... nts-119977" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I find it difficult to believe he wasn't aware, even a humble oik like me knew. It was everywhere when he announced it.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... ssion.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 1:34 pm

PorFavor wrote: . . .
Has Ken Livingstone apologised, then?
. . .

No, his position remains the same as it was that when Jones apologises to him he will apologise in return. He is also reported to saying that he was brought up in south London, where, if someone insults you, you insult them back. He says he had no idea about Kevan Jones' psychiatric history.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 1:37 pm

Martha Kearney is interviewing Ken Livingstone.

Q: But, even if you did not know about Jones’s depression - and he has been very open about it - isn’t it right that you shouldn’t be using language like this?

Livingstone says he grew up in south London. He did not go to Eton, where he was taught manners.

If someone is rude about me, “I’m rude back to them,” he says.

Kearney points out that Jones did not go to Eton; he was the son of a miner.

Livingstone says he is sorry for upsetting Kevan Jones

Ken Livingstone has just apologised for what he said about Kevan Jones. He told the World at One that he had no idea that Jones had problems with depression.

If he’s upset, I’m sorry.

I didn't hear the broadcast so I'm open to offers, so to speak, but that seems like a very churlish "apology".

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 1:38 pm

refitman wrote:Is Andrew Sparrow telling porkies?

Wouldn't be the first time. He revealed his unabashed partisanship a long while back imo.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 1:40 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:
PorFavor wrote: . . .
Has Ken Livingstone apologised, then?
. . .
No, his position remains the same as it was that when Jones apologises to him he will apologise in return. He is also reported to saying that he was brought up in south London, where, if someone insults you, you insult them back. He says he had no idea about Kevan Jones' psychiatric history.

Livingstone on WATO :-
I had no idea that he had any mental health issues otherwise I wouldn't have said it, if he's upset I'm sorry.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 1:42 pm

refitman wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Try as they might, they couldn't get a criticism of Jeremy Corbyn out of John Mann on Daily Politics today. Mann was adamant that the party was in full agreement on their position on Syria as set out by Hilary Benn, that he had full confidence in both Corbyn and his shadow foreign secretary. He seemed pretty genuine about it too. Benn has been pretty solid this last few days and does seem to have the confidence of the whole party and as Corbyn appointed him and has put his confidence in him in the first place it does reflect very well on his judgement.

With a survation poll out suggesting the British public is still keen on some kind of co-ordinated UN plan before getting involved in the Syrian civil war, much as 2 years ago, I'm starting to feel a little more optimistic than yesterday. Regardless of a complete change of who he wants to bomb and why, Cameron will use approval for bombing Isis in Syria now as some kind of vindication for his plan to destabilise Assad and will claim he was right all along and Ed was wrong. I'm pleased Labour are sticking to Ed's policy of going through the UN. I hope the steady heads may once again prevail.
Is Andrew Sparrow telling porkies?
On the Daily Politics the Labour MP John Mann was asked after PMQs if he had confidence in Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Pointedly, he refused to say that he had. He said he had confidence in Hilary Benn, the shadow foreign secretary.

Mann did concentrate on Benn being spokesperson on Syria for Labour and how he supported the stance taken by him, but when pressed on whether he also had confidence in Corbyn he said, quite clearly, he had confidence in both. Any sense of disagreement with Corbyn would not be based on his actual words. He pointed out Corbyn appointed Hilary Benn as his shadow foreign secretary and the party had full confidence in Benn. I know it's not a ringing endorsement of Corbyn, but there was a hint of respect for the fact that Corbyn had chosen someone to lead on Syria that the whole party is able to get behind. Maybe it's just me, but I took it as a positive. I really do think the MSM thought it was going to be a lot easier to agitate a full blown schism in Labour.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 1:46 pm

PorFavor wrote:

Martha Kearney is interviewing Ken Livingstone.

Q: But, even if you did not know about Jones’s depression - and he has been very open about it - isn’t it right that you shouldn’t be using language like this?

Livingstone says he grew up in south London. He did not go to Eton, where he was taught manners.

If someone is rude about me, “I’m rude back to them,” he says.

Kearney points out that Jones did not go to Eton; he was the son of a miner.

Livingstone says he is sorry for upsetting Kevan Jones

Ken Livingstone has just apologised for what he said about Kevan Jones. He told the World at One that he had no idea that Jones had problems with depression.

If he’s upset, I’m sorry.
I didn't hear the broadcast so I'm open to offers, so to speak, but that seems like a very churlish "apology".

That transcript is in the wrong order. The apology was the first thing said. The manners bit was after. There was no reference to son of a miner by MK. Thank God for the Tune in Radio Pro app for going over the interview!

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 1:53 pm

It's war.

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seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 1:54 pm

Livingstone is reported to have said Maria Eagle is mad too. Very politically incorrect to do that these days. It's pretty offensive in both cases, though more in the case of Jones. I don't know anything about KJ or his past, but I am a nobody, if KL is that out of touch not sure what he is doing there.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 1:56 pm

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PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 2:00 pm

@TobyLatimer

Thanks. That's better. Shouldn't have needed to be dragged out of him.