Wednesday 25th November 2015

Post by **refitman** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 7:12 am

Morning all.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 7:52 am

Morning. Looks like another grey dsy here, but who knows.

I see Ed only has to put his head above the parapet and they are at it again. Probably a touch of truth in Behrs words but that isn't his motivation.

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 8:35 am

Here it comes again. The party for hard working people.

[youtube]nfwJ387cs00[/youtube]

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 8:38 am

Gordon Brown has written an article today on the Tory lies on poverty

: ScreenShot01099.jpg (79.5 KiB) Viewed 8327 times

http://labourlist.org/2015/11/the-8-lie ... t-poverty/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TobyLatimer · Post by **TobyLatimer** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 8:51 am

Georgie boy's first ever tweet from two years ago. Must have been a portent.

: ScreenShot01101.jpg (45.99 KiB) Viewed 8307 times

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 8:53 am

Morning.

This may be a day to stay under the duvet.
It feels like we're all queuing up outside the head teacher's office waiting to be punished for something we didn't even do.

& notice that even Peter Jukes is retweeting the idea that older people may be getting too much.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:01 am

Morning.

Kevin Maguire ‏@Kevin_Maguire 7m7 minutes ago
Humiliating for Osborne IF he breaches his own welfare cap, falling into the political trap he dug http://news.sky.com/story/1593729/spend ... ach-likely" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Yes - yes it is. Bring on the humiliation please.

I wish the HoC could be like TisWas on these occasions - perhaps a ceremonial gunking - green slime from a great height all over the head - is the answer.

Sorry this might be the only political thought that cheers me up today - better get it in while I can!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:05 am

That's what's worrying me RR.
Who's Osborne going to hit out at, financially & otherwise, to help his ego regain its top dog position ?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:11 am

Andrew Sparrow:
''The trick to successful trap-laying is to make damn sure that you lure your quarry, rather than falling into it.''

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:12 am

Very interesting thread here yesterday. Bit tetchy at times - but hey - that really is just about all that this place gets in comparison to just about everywhere else.

We were away all day - driving up to Solihull, well Marston Green, to pick up our new dog who finally arrived after what must have been a very gruelling drive through Spain and France, ferry from Dieppe and motorway up to the Midlands. We were on the road for 9 hours there and back ourselves.

She is beautiful. Quite shy at first but after a nosh of working dog champ with Aldi sardines she was much perkier and ready to explore her new home. She is going to be a slipper taker - immediately had picked up both of mine and moved them into her bed - perhaps she thought they might be puppies. Delighted that she and the cats took each other completely in their respective strides - no fixation, no urge to chase, no hissing or hackle raising. We have already had some nose to nose greetings and investigations. What a relief that is. (The last arrival had to be trained to live harmoniously with cats ....).

So Paloma is here at last. We have been trying to work out the correct pronunciation of the Spanish commands for sit, stay, come etc so we can communicate a bit more easily at first. I think it's going to be her watching and learning by osmosis from the other dogs that gets her to work out how it all happens here - plus a lot of love.

Marston Green - very nice area but I couldn't live with a runway directly behind my house. But many people obviously can. Very surprised by how close it was - maybe 100 metres away.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:17 am

yahyah wrote:That's what's worrying me RR.
Who's Osborne going to hit out at, financially & otherwise, to help his ego regain its top dog position ?

Well last night when I got in they were saying it is housing benefit that he has got in his sights. If so that is really really going to hit a lot of the poorest paid workers and low income households very hard - mostly the same people that would be clobbered by the tax credit cuts I imagine. And, again according to stuff circulating last night, he's going to phase in the tax credit cuts to marry up with rises in the minimum wage (I am NOT going to call it the National Living Wage - that sleight of hand is an insult to the electorate's intelligence) and rises in personal tax allowance etc. It will still be bloody and cruel.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:20 am

Welcome to Wales Paloma !

My neighbours have a lovely rescue cat they had brought over from Spain when they moved back.
She took a while to get used to the climate here, think it was a bit of a shock, but she's a real 'cath' now, rather than a 'gata'.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:23 am

Good-morning, everyone, especially you, Paloma!

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:23 am

Owen Smith Retweeted
Ben Glaze ‏@benglaze 17m17 minutes ago
EXCL: 1.3m pensioners face £500 rent hike in feared Housing Benefit raid, warns @OwenSmith_MP - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pe ... es-6895394" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … #spendingreview

Here's one group who probably aren't going to like Osborne quite so much (if they ever did) by the end of today ... or in a few days time ... whenever the reality of this 'review' starts to hit home for individuals and particular groups. What will the unravelling period be for this one? Hopefully short as the media, opposition parties and the public are now more tuned in to closely watching and unpicking the fine print and detail that Osborne doesn't mention - rather than just the headlines he creates.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:30 am

But everyone's been softened up by articles and posts in the Guardian gnashing that 'the baby boomers stole our future'', ''pensioners vote Tory'' and ''old people spend all their time on cruises and playing golf'' so will anyone care about what he does to pensioners ?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:33 am

Allegra Stratton ‏@BBCAllegra 4m4 minutes ago
Allegra Stratton Retweeted Bruno Waterfield
Amid today's cuts-athon, don't miss this by vg @BrunoBrussels: PM to drop migrant demand in Eu talks. Am hearing too

Here's the other big climb down. How long did that 'demand' for in work benefits to be denied to migrants last? From letter to Tusk - about 2 weeks ago - to now....

Not looking good on the renegotiation front for Cameron is it? What a puffed up nincompoop he is. I just wish he wasn't a puffed up nincompoop with power.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:34 am

TobyLatimer wrote:Georgie boy's first ever tweet from two years ago. Must have been a portent.

ScreenShot01101.jpg

Interesting Osborne's first tweet was made on 20 Mar 2013.
He'd been Tory Chancellor for almost three years at that time.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:35 am

yahyah wrote:But everyone's been softened up by articles and posts in the Guardian gnashing that 'the baby boomers stole our future'', ''pensioners vote Tory'' and ''old people spend all their time on cruises and playing golf'' so will anyone care about what he does to pensioners ?

Yes - it might come as a shock to large parts of the electorate that there are pensioners who need housing benefit. They're all supposed to have big gold plated pensions and be rattling around in their huge houses giggling as they receive their undeserved heating allowances and bus passes.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:43 am

Paloma sounds a delight!

HB raids are what I fear right now, and know how many could be affected. I'm supporting one adult child, and the other may need help soon, and I am guessing there will be many thousands of families in a similar position, if not millions. The small luxuries I used to enjoy are well in the past, the occasional new book, flowers, etc. Nothing extravagant. There is no leeway for anything. Again I know I am not alone in this and am better off than most. Still, I am back to the mid-eighties, but without the network of support I had then, rewind anymore and I'm in the ****. That's where Osbournomics and austerity thinking take people.

As HindleA's posts often indicate those whose care needs are currently unmet are finding it very hard.

Today is a bit fearsome, tbh.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:49 am

yahyah wrote:But everyone's been softened up by articles and posts in the Guardian gnashing that 'the baby boomers stole our future'', ''pensioners vote Tory'' and ''old people spend all their time on cruises and playing golf'' so will anyone care about what he does to pensioners ?

Pensioners have children and grandchildren. They can see how they're affected.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:54 am

Ian Lucas ‏@IanCLucas 2m2 minutes ago
Why aren't @BBCNews telling us that Osborne told us in 2010 he would have eliminated the deficit by now?

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:55 am

Good morning all.
Away from the Economic Master's necessary rebalancing of the economy (c. All MSM) Steve Bell sums up the foreign cock up our government are in danger of wading into:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... et-cartoon

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:55 am

off topic

Odd, I just clicked an Ancona/Friedland video by mistake, it is dated 8th May, 12.05. It mentions all four original leadership candidates. Sans Corbyn, of course.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 9:56 am

Piennar calls the tax credit change a tactical retreat. How about a disastrous, embarrassing u turn you partisan git.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:05 am

Morning all.

I do wonder sometimes why data gets shoved out when the causes for why underlying issues haven't been fully investigated.

Babies born at weekends 'have higher death risk'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34915807

Babies born in hospitals in England at the weekends have a "significantly" greater chance of dying than those born on weekdays, researchers say.

A study of more than 1.3 million births found there were 7.1 deaths per 1,000 babies delivered at weekends.

This was 7% higher than on weekdays.

OK but...

Infection rates for mothers and injuries to the babies, including anything from cuts to brain damage, were also higher at weekends.

Researchers said they could not identify the cause of the higher risks.

They looked at staffing levels in terms of which hospitals were compliant with the guidelines for consultant cover, and found little difference between those that were and those that were not.

But they said much more data was needed on staffing before it could be ruled out.

So why not identify what the causes are before scaring the hell out of women who might start to wonder whether they should phone the hospital just because something starts to happen on a Sunday?

I doubt if staffing is the issue because I know for a fact that maternity services are covered 24/7 365 days a year.

Correlation isn't causation...

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:05 am

Owen Smith ‏@OwenSmith_MP 56s56 seconds ago
Rumours that Osborne is to target Employment Support fills me with dread for millions of sick & disabled people already smashed by this Govt

He sounds so much better than his predecessors in this job. He sounds human and as though he really cares.

I scored him highly in the recent Labour List survey of shadow cabinet members. (Anyone who contributes to negative messaging about Labour in either clear or veiled ways gets the lowest rating from me in those polls.)

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:12 am

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:12 am

Iain Martin ‏@iainmartin1 27m27 minutes ago
As govt drops migrant/benefits demand, my list from October on renegotiation looks ever more plausible http://www.capx.co/revealed-david-camer ... s-in-full/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

... 1) More comfortable armchairs at European summits. The current Italian chairs are simply unacceptable. Something more British – a club chair in decaying leather – must be introduced (after a suitable consultation period).

2) The introduction of a wider selection of cold beers on the Eurostar.

3) France: No more with the ‎Jonny Halliday business. He is not the French Elvis. He is not even the French Tom Jones.

4) More comfortable chairs at European summits.

5) Erm…

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:14 am

Odd - that Sarah Wollaston article is still unavailable.

Anyone else fancy a try - it's on the DT over at the Comment & Analysis.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:14 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Ian Lucas ‏@IanCLucas 2m2 minutes ago
Why aren't @BBCNews telling us that Osborne told us in 2010 he would have eliminated the deficit by now?

Almost six years of Tory government have me almost certain he'll likely blame everyone but his party and himself for his dire management.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:17 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Odd - that Sarah Wollaston article is still unavailable.

Anyone else fancy a try - it's on the DT over at the Comment & Analysis.

Is this the one, RogerOThornhill?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/120 ... -care.html

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:22 am

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 14m14 minutes ago
The no of "excess winter deaths" increased substantially last year after decades of reductions), new figs show. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnation ... ain-points" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:23 am

citizenJA wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Odd - that Sarah Wollaston article is still unavailable.

Anyone else fancy a try - it's on the DT over at the Comment & Analysis.
Is this the one, RogerOThornhill?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/120 ... -care.html

Yes, must be the one. Odd - didn't work when I tried the link from the front page.

This bit stuck out for me.

This is not the time to push for routine seven-day NHS services without the realistic funds to match. The extra costs of routine services on a Sunday were not included in the NHS’s own long-term plan, the “Five-Year Forward View”. So any promise that the service can operate at the same level of convenience on a Sunday as on a Tuesday is simply unrealistic.

Well quite.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:24 am

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 40m40 minutes ago
There were estimated 43,900 excess deaths in England and Wales last winter, highest number since 1999, figures show http://bbc.in/1Ia3dGp

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:28 am

By the way - whoever RebeccaRiotsXV3 on the G politics blog is - it isn't me.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:29 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 40m40 minutes ago
There were estimated 43,900 excess deaths in England and Wales last winter, highest number since 1999, figures show http://bbc.in/1Ia3dGp

Here's how it works for Tories.

Labour in charge - blame Andy Burnham
Tories in charge - blame Andy Burnham or the NHS.

Don't whatever you do admit that your government has anything to do with it.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:35 am

StephenDolan wrote:Piennar calls the tax credit change a tactical retreat. How about a disastrous, embarrassing u turn you partisan git.

Hardman on Newsnight last night described tax credit cuts as 'a political mistake'.
Then wittered on about how bad spending cuts would be because they're concentrated on unprotected departments, as though she'd be delighted if he cut the NHS & education as well.
Westminster bubble.

In general Hardman is one of the lesser offenders.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:38 am

Latest release from Badger Trust. I posted about this a couple of days ago. Beggars belief ... but Somerset WT have form.

Badger Trust condemns the appointment of badger cull supporters as Vice Presidents of Somerset Wildlife Trust

The Badger Trust is deeply concerned by the appointment of Michael Eavis and Tory MP Rebecca Pow as Vice Presidents to the Somerset Wildlife Trust, both of whom are known to support badger culling and bloodsports.

“These appointments are incomprehensible to anyone genuinely concerned about wildlife issues in Britain today,” says Dominic Dyer, CEO of the Badger Trust. “This is a complete betrayal of the fundamental values of conservationists and the vast majority of the public."

The announcement has caused an immediate storm on social media with many Trust members threatening to resign or cancel their subscriptions.

“We normally have very good working relationships with all the wildlife organisations,” continues Dominic Dyer, “but this decision has made us seriously consider on what basis that can continue with Somerset Wildlife Trust. Their logo very conspicuously features a badger yet now we have two notoriously anti-badger and pro bloodsports individuals, not only as the public face of the organisation but also presumably influencing policy.”

“There is a widely accepted myth that the bloodsports industry is somehow committed to nature conservation,” added Badger Trust Chairman, Peter Martin, “which is something that the public are becoming increasingly sceptical of. Badgers in particular are suffering greatly from killing and persecution by the farming and landowning sector in the pursuit of profit and the control of a disease they themselves have spread to our wildlife.”

“We cannot imagine what was in the Somerset WT’s minds when they made these appointments,” concludes Peter Martin, “it’s been a terrible error of judgement that is hugely damaging to their reputation and could well lead to a catastrophic fall in membership and public support. We hope they will reconsider their decision as a matter of urgency because we need wildlife trusts to be run by people who really understand wildlife.”

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:44 am

ITV News ‏@itvnews 2m2 minutes ago
Former Tory MP Tim Yeo loses libel action over 'cash for advocacy' claims
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-11- ... cy-claims/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:58 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 40m40 minutes ago
There were estimated 43,900 excess deaths in England and Wales last winter, highest number since 1999, figures show http://bbc.in/1Ia3dGp

And it wasn't classed as a particularly severe winter or so I understand.
It has to be because of fuel costs. Nothing's changed on that front has it?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 10:59 am

gilsey wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Piennar calls the tax credit change a tactical retreat. How about a disastrous, embarrassing u turn you partisan git.
Hardman on Newsnight last night described tax credit cuts as 'a political mistake'.
Then wittered on about how bad spending cuts would be because they're concentrated on unprotected departments, as though she'd be delighted if he cut the NHS & education as well.
Westminster bubble.

In general Hardman is one of the lesser offenders.

I agree, I find her writing is usually worth a read.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 11:01 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:By the way - whoever RebeccaRiotsXV3 on the G politics blog is - it isn't me.

It isn't Hugo again, is it?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 11:08 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:By the way - whoever RebeccaRiotsXV3 on the G politics blog is - it isn't me.
It isn't Hugo again, is it?

My first thought too. Sounds like someone who is familiar with our RR2.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 11:08 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:By the way - whoever RebeccaRiotsXV3 on the G politics blog is - it isn't me.
It isn't Hugo again, is it?

It wouldn't be a surprise. Future appearances from Anat0lyKaspar0v to be expected too....

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 11:12 am

ohsocynical wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:By the way - whoever RebeccaRiotsXV3 on the G politics blog is - it isn't me.
It isn't Hugo again, is it?
My first thought too. Sounds like someone who is familiar with our RR2.

He was using his standby account of AJPTayloring the other day.

Someone tried to get him to apologise for his impersonation - he ignored it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 11:15 am

ohsocynical wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 40m40 minutes ago
There were estimated 43,900 excess deaths in England and Wales last winter, highest number since 1999, figures show http://bbc.in/1Ia3dGp
And it wasn't classed as a particularly severe winter or so I understand.
It has to be because of fuel costs. Nothing's changed on that front has it?

They are saying a major factor was the flu virus and a less effective vaccine.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 11:18 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Odd - that Sarah Wollaston article is still unavailable.

Anyone else fancy a try - it's on the DT over at the Comment & Analysis.
Is this the one, RogerOThornhill?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/120 ... -care.html
Yes, must be the one. Odd - didn't work when I tried the link from the front page.

This bit stuck out for me.
This is not the time to push for routine seven-day NHS services without the realistic funds to match. The extra costs of routine services on a Sunday were not included in the NHS’s own long-term plan, the “Five-Year Forward View”. So any promise that the service can operate at the same level of convenience on a Sunday as on a Tuesday is simply unrealistic.
Well quite.

(my bold)
This stuck out for me
'the NHS's own'
Tories have taken over the NHS and are using the name, NHS, like JHunt uses his NHS pin - a legitimising tool for Tory designs.
From the forty-one page document's forward:

Our values haven’t changed, but our world has. So the NHS needs to adapt to take advantage of the opportunities science and technology offer patients, carers and those who serve them. But it also needs to evolve to meet new challenges: we live longer, with complex health issues, sometimes of our own making. One in five adults still smoke. A third of us drink too much alcohol. Just under two thirds are overweight or obese.

These changes mean that we need to take a longer view - a Five-Year Forward View - to consider the possible futures on offer, and the choices that we face. So this Forward View sets out how the health service needs to change, arguing for a more engaged relationship with patients, carers and citizens so that we can promote wellbeing and prevent ill-health.

It represents the shared view of the NHS’ national leadership, and reflects an emerging consensus amongst patient groups, clinicians, local communities and frontline NHS leaders. It sets out a vision of a better NHS, the steps we should now take to get us there, and the actions we need from others.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/u ... fv-web.pdf

The closest I came to an author of this document is below.

"...developed by the partner organisations that deliver and oversee health and care services including Care Quality Commission, Public Health England and NHS Improvement (previously Monitor and National Trust Development Authority).

Patient groups, clinicians and independent experts have also provided their advice to create a collective view of how the health service needs to change over the next five years if it is to close the widening gaps in the health of the population, quality of care and the funding of services."

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 11:31 am

Good morfternoon.

Lord Porter, the Conservative chair of the Local Government Association, has told the Guardian in an interview that some councils could effectively go bust if the cuts in the spending review are as deep as expected. (Politics Live, Guardian)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 11:35 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 40m40 minutes ago
There were estimated 43,900 excess deaths in England and Wales last winter, highest number since 1999, figures show http://bbc.in/1Ia3dGp

Strike me like a bolt out of the blue - I wasn't expecting this - the ONS always cautioned me to remember that cold temperatures aren't the sole or perhaps even primary cause of excess winter deaths.
I'm stunned at this news.
I've only looked at the main points thus far but I've linked the ONS research released today below.

"Respiratory diseases were the underlying cause of death in more than a third of all excess winter deaths in 2014/15."

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnation ... b-ewm.html

Pollution.

rustinpeace · Post by **rustinpeace** » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 11:39 am

citizenJA wrote:The closest I came to an author of this document is below.

The Five Year Forward View was written by Simon Stevens, Chief Executive of NHS England.

Nice guy; knows his stuff.